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Triangulum
Oct 3, 2007

by Lowtax
Of course. Mutty GSDs are as welcome as ~purebreds~

We took Vecna to the park right before sundown (4 pm :gonk:) to play some ball off leash. Gotta say, I'm really impressed with his recall. He's gotten to the point where even if he's running up to a bird, rabbit, or dog I can just give the whistle and he'll turn around on a dime and come charging back to me. Which is really awesome because in this weather his long line freezes solid. I've also learned that Kong balls are literally the best thing in the world. He'll ignore hot dogs, pizza, and every animal in the world if that ball is out. I think I'm going to have to crush his world and reserve it for a training reward.


Good dog :3:

Triangulum fucked around with this message at 19:53 on Dec 13, 2012

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Warbadger
Jun 17, 2006

While going through the various studies I came across one on Hip Dyplasia in German Shepherd Dogs, Golden Retrievers, Labrador Retrievers, and Rottweilers. The chance of degenerative hip dysplasia in US GSDs was found to be some 5 times greater than that of all 3 of the other breeds combined. Increased hip joint laxity and weight seemed to be the two big correlating factors. Which is to say that even if there is no recent history of hip dysplasia in the line, keep your dog on the thin side.



Captain Foxy posted:

Jesus Warbadger, how many studies have to be posted in this thread before you chill out?

Take it to Random Nonsense, please, I came here to see cute GSDs. :3:

Well, first they'd actually have to post relevant studies. Or in all but one case actually post studies. My claim was that genetics are not a significant contributor to aggression/complex behaviors in comparison to learned behaviors/training.


The studies posted by Riiseli (the only person to actually post STUDIES aside from myself) concluded that there is a link between behavior and genetics in dogs. That's it. Dogs of certain breeds are more LIKELY to act certain ways due to genetics. That has no bearing on the argument, though, which was that this influence is not particularly significant in comparison to learned behavior for complex behavior like aggression.

The first study I posted actually compared the correlation of factors (including genetics!) with behavior (including aggression!) in the German Shepherd Dog (the breed under discussion!). The conclusion was that genetics appeared to influence the behaviors...but were not the largest influence (the litter). That appears to support my claim.

The second study I posted was in response to the implication that "Pit Bulls" would automatically fight other dogs. That study examined aggressive behavior to different factors (strange dog, strange person, owner, etc.) in various breeds including pit bulls. The findings indicated that dog aggression was not found in the majority of Pit Bulls (22%), despite being higher than in most other breeds studied. Again, they're more likely to be dog aggressive than most breeds but it's far from universal to the breed.

I'm sorry for cluttering up the thread and this will be my last response on the subject here, but I dislike being straw-manned and shouted down and this was relevant to GSDs (if your GSD tries to attack people it needs socialization and proper training like any other dog breed, not a retrovirus to rewrite its genetic code).

Triangulum posted:

Boy I sure am glad literally the only on topic poo poo you've posted in this thread was repeating information from the OP.

Yes, surely I cannot hold an opinion on anything in the OP, nor were there ANY bits of new information in the post at all. Amazingly even if the above sarcasm were true, my post would still have more content than your own post right here!

Warbadger fucked around with this message at 21:02 on Dec 13, 2012

notsowelp
Oct 12, 2012

Though she is small, she is fierce.

Responded in the Pit Bull thread, now shush

Skizzles
Feb 21, 2009

Live, Laugh, Love,
Poop in a box.
This might belong in the mutt thread, but it's GSD related so I'll put it here.

I was curious what you guys think of my friend's dog, Maddie. She thinks she's pure GSD. Many other people think she's a mix. I honestly can't decide. She is VERY sleek and narrow for a GSD (even now that she's put on a little bit of weight since these pictures), so people always ask if she's a greyhound mix.





Captain Foxy
Jun 13, 2007

I love Hitler and Hitler loves me! He's not all bad, Hitler just needs someone to believe in him! Can't you just give Hitler a chance?


Quality Pugamutes now available, APR/APRI/NKC approved breeder. PM for details.
That looks like a purebred white GSD. They can be typically smaller boned and lighter than the standard because unscrupulous breeders sometimes mix in husky for that 'primitive white wolf' look.

White shepherds are actually a thing and it looks like your friend has one.

Pardalis
Dec 26, 2008

The Amazing Dreadheaded Chameleon Keeper
White shepherds vary A LOT in size, coat quality, and conformation because of the many ways they are bred and registered. She could be a pure (not very well bred) GSD but I could possibly see a bit of sighthound in there if she is a mix. Her temperament would be a better indication of heritage imo. I see no husky in her though Captain Foxy is right that it is a super common cross.

She is skinny and in that awkward gangly teenage shepherd stage. It usually lasts until 3 or so. If she stays that thin and doesn't seem to want to put weight on, get her a TLI test to check for EPI. It is incredibly common in GSD's and moreso in whites (in my personal experience) because of lovely color breeding and a very narrow gene pool.

White shepherds :can:

Content: my previous dog, Kemper, a white GSD with every breed problem in the book. I miss my dog :(

Skizzles
Feb 21, 2009

Live, Laugh, Love,
Poop in a box.
I knew white GSDs were a thing, just didn't know they could vary in size so much (but it makes sense since they're obvs not bred for show).

I don't know her temperament that well, the times I've met her she seems like a pretty chill girl, if a touch on the neurotic side. She does have megaesophagus though, so she has to eat in a Bailey chair. It's REALLY tricky because she has some reactivity issues but she can't really work on it using treats because of the megaesophagus. :/ Not unless she wants to hold her upright for a bit after every few treats.

Those pictures are old and she's still very gangly, but has enough weight on her now that you can't see her ribs.

Kemper was very handsome (and I've always loved the name Kemper for some reason).

6-Ethyl Bearcat
Apr 27, 2008

Go out
Are white GSDs and 'White Swiss Shepherds' the same thing or are WSSs an actual separate breed?

My boss at training has two GSDs, one of about 13 and decrepit, then other about 18 months. The boy is starting tracking training which he loves. He's gorgeous and enormous. I've not had a huge amount of contact with them in the past so I forget how big they get.

The few we've had at training have been universally awesome and very true to the breed. I worked with a little girl of 4 months who was very reactive to dogs (hadn't gone out of her backyard/breeder's house, then got sold by her second owner because she was reactive. I wonder why?). I taught the owners the Look at That game etc and they have worked so hard with her, a few weeks later she's a completely different dog. It would have been a huge problem to resolve if she didn't get sold when she did. She is becoming awesome like the others. :3:

When I retire I would love to have one. They'd be too much to handle for me at the moment!

Huge Liability
Mar 2, 2010

Triangulum posted:

Of course. Mutty GSDs are as welcome as ~purebreds~

Thanks for being inclusive!



Duke's father was a purebred and his mother was a German Shepherd mix, though we aren't sure what she was mixed with. Duke can occasionally pass as a purebred, though. He once fooled a registered GSD breeder.

He's nine years old, so he's beginning to slow down a bit, but he's otherwise completely healthy. We're so thankful that he hasn't shown signs of dysplasia.

notsowelp
Oct 12, 2012

Though she is small, she is fierce.

Huge Liability posted:

Thanks for being inclusive!



Duke's father was a purebred and his mother was a German Shepherd mix, though we aren't sure what she was mixed with. Duke can occasionally pass as a purebred, though. He once fooled a registered GSD breeder.

He's nine years old, so he's beginning to slow down a bit, but he's otherwise completely healthy. We're so thankful that he hasn't shown signs of dysplasia.

:3: I'd definitely mistake him for a purebred. Do you clip/shave his coat, out of interest?

adventure in the sandbox
Nov 24, 2005



Things change


notsowelp posted:

:3: I'd definitely mistake him for a purebred. Do you clip/shave his coat, out of interest?

My Akita looked like that when she was blowing her coat.

Duke is a cutie and fooled me :3:

Huge Liability
Mar 2, 2010

notsowelp posted:

:3: I'd definitely mistake him for a purebred. Do you clip/shave his coat, out of interest?

As far as I know, he hasn't been clipped/shaved before. He's my parents' dog, so I'm not sure. I know he gets brushed a lot. Does he look like he needs a proper groom? I could probably convince my mum to have him groomed.

big dyke energy
Jul 29, 2006

Football? Yaaaay
Oh man GSD thread, why didn't I see you sooner? :3:

Here's my girl, Roxie.




As a puppy, she enjoyed my laundry (about 4 years ago).


Those ears :3: (3 years ago)


With her BFF, my mother's sheepdog. (Last summer I think)


Staring at me, hoping that I will play fetch for another twenty minutes. She goes absolutely bonkers for any kind of tennis ball, but is horrible at fetch. She won't actually give the ball up until she's done chomping on it.


Why are you holding the ball like that, what is wrong with you.


Of course, it is almost impossible to take a picture when she is not sleeping or laying down. Literally taken five minutes ago. Roxie is an excellent bed warmer in the winter months.

She's about four years old now, and god was I not prepared for her when I got her. She's from what is undoubtedly a backyard breeder in a nearby town. My mother and brother picked her up from the humane society, and she was there with about four of her littermates. She came with AKC papers, but I'm pretty sure I've lost them. Anyway. She eventually became MY dog, because I was the only one willing to walk her and train her and buy her good food. So. My dog

But like I said, I was really not prepared to raise a puppy when I got her. She's very dog-aggressive on walks, probably because I wasn't able to socialize her well. She's fine with other dogs in the house/yard, but not on walks. Hates dogs in other yards, though, because she can't stand my neighbor's adorable pitty dog. Otherwise, though, she is a great, smart dog, and I am so happy to have her. I wasn't really enthusiastic about GSDs before I got her, but they're one of my favorite breeds now.

Also, people recognize her when we're out walking, and get really excited :3:. No one knows who the gently caress I am, but they sure as hell know Roxie.

And there is a lot of words about my dog. Sorry for the low quality pictures, my cellphone doesn't take great pics, ever, apparently.

Triangulum
Oct 3, 2007

by Lowtax

Skizzles posted:

This might belong in the mutt thread, but it's GSD related so I'll put it here.

I was curious what you guys think of my friend's dog, Maddie. She thinks she's pure GSD. Many other people think she's a mix. I honestly can't decide. She is VERY sleek and narrow for a GSD (even now that she's put on a little bit of weight since these pictures), so people always ask if she's a greyhound mix.






I would guess that's a purebred GSD but it's really hard to tell with some white GSDs since they aren't bred to the standard. There's an absolutely asinine amount of variation in them. I know one who's so tall his head comes up to my armpit.

6-Ethyl Bearcat posted:

Are white GSDs and 'White Swiss Shepherds' the same thing or are WSSs an actual separate breed?

"White Swiss Shepherds" are just white GSDs, but the White Swiss Shepherd Club is trying to get the AKC to recognize them as a seperate breed. I'm curious how other people feel about trying to develope them as a seperate breed in general. I have kind of mixed feelings on it. On one hand, the reasoning behind excluding them from comformation was based on faulty assuptions and where kind of nonsensical. On the other, at this point breeding them indicates ignoring the standard and breeding for coat color, which I don't agree with.

Triangulum fucked around with this message at 14:02 on Dec 14, 2012

WolfensteinBag
Aug 7, 2003

So it was all your work?

Triangulum posted:

Vecna's from a sort of :banjo: background.

Dude! That's pretty much the best accidental litter ever. I'm shocked how good mom looks for being WGS, NOTHING like the average you'd see here. And dad is handsome as poo poo!! Czech, maybe? For two pet dogs, you couldn't ask for something better to happen (as far as testing, working, etc.)

I swear, I want to live in Germany. :sigh: They are so far beyond the US in terms of dog care. Although, I got into it once with a woman that just could NOT understand why breeders in the US would need to put a spay/neuter clause in pet homes. They just have no concept of our pet overpopulation and byb/mill epidemic. :(

a life less posted:

I don't really have many well formed opinions on what I like in GSDs, but here's a dog I think is pretty nifty. And I like plush coats, okay.

His name is Kastle and I think he's probably about 18 months old, so he has yet to fill out entirely. I just like how moderate he is. Also, he's only about 55 pounds, but he seems to have the presence of a much bigger dog. I think he's put together quite well. I don't know poo poo about GSD kennels, but he's Kastle van het Basjes Huis

Couldn't find anything about his kennel, but he's from a long line of sporting dogs. :3: Looks like the line from the sire were mainly shown, too, lots of V ratings with the ScHIII's. He's a little more angling than I typically like, but that's from the show line in him, you're going to see more of that. Looks like the litter they'd done, though, was probably looking to make them more moderate. I'd guess they got more of that in other dogs of the litter, I'll have to look into it later! Thanks for posting him, this is fun. :iamafag: Also, I love plushy coats, too. :3: A lot of the dogs I like throw them, so I'm hoping maybe when I get a puppy, I'll get lucky! People typically want normal coats.

Huge Liability posted:

Does he look like he needs a proper groom? I could probably convince my mum to have him groomed.

If that's a recent picture, he's blowing his coat big time. A good brushing and combing would help, but a bath and a blow-out would get it out better. Is he used to going to the groomer, though? GSDs are known to get really anxious at the groomer if they're not used to going, so don't be surprised if he acts nuts when he's normally good. I'd say if you're worried at all about him freaking out, working on it at home would be good enough. You could mist his coat with a spray bottle to make it damp, then towel dry to help loosen the hair. :)

Triangulum posted:

I would guess that's a purebred GSD but it's really hard to tell with some white GSDs since they aren't bred to the standard. There's an absolutely asinine amount of variation in them. I know one who's so tall his head comes up to my armpit.

I had no idea white GSDs were so screwed up. :( From what I knew looking at them mildly years ago, they were like white versions of American show dogs. Really sad that they're so all over the place.

quote:

Your opinion was "it's sad" and condensing the last two paragraphs of the history section into a sentence.

And yep you got me, I'm not contributing any infomation to the thread at all :lol:

GIVE IT A REST! :argh: Everyone else has taken discussion elsewhere, you're awesome, and I agree with you on everything you've been posting, but enough is enough! I'm stressed enough in my "real" life, I don't need it in PI, too, damnit. :argh:

Triangulum
Oct 3, 2007

by Lowtax

WolfensteinBag posted:

Dude! That's pretty much the best accidental litter ever. I'm shocked how good mom looks for being WGS, NOTHING like the average you'd see here. And dad is handsome as poo poo!! Czech, maybe? For two pet dogs, you couldn't ask for something better to happen (as far as testing, working, etc.)

I swear, I want to live in Germany. :sigh: They are so far beyond the US in terms of dog care. Although, I got into it once with a woman that just could NOT understand why breeders in the US would need to put a spay/neuter clause in pet homes. They just have no concept of our pet overpopulation and byb/mill epidemic. :(
Yeah I'm reeally pleased with the look of his parents (and his aunt too, but I don't have photos of her), the fact that all three dogs are worked regularly, and that the bitches are titled. Oskar's a bit blocky and large for my liking but he's one of the most handsome GSDs I've seen in person. I don't think he's from Czech lines just because of his size (he's easily 100 lbs) but really who knows. Their backs and back legs are what initially sold me on the litter. Their temperments were really nice from what I saw when I met them and from what their owner told us. His place has had a couple of break ins and he said every single time, he found the burgler in the corner with all three dogs doing exactly what a GSD is supposed to do during the protection phase of Schutzhund (ie decoy trapped in the blind, dogs doing the jump and bark thing but not attacking). The one thing I do know we have to watch out for is dog aggression. Oskar's same sex aggressive and his mom doesn't love strange dogs either. So we're working with a private trainer right now because Vecna's going through his rear end in a top hat teenaged boy phase, is posturing a lot at other dogs, and is a colossal douche to other male puppies. I don't want that poo poo to get out of hand so yeah, trainer time.

I've been so impressed with the level of dog care here. It's so rare to run across a fat, greasy dog and since training collars are illegal, almost everyone carries a bag of treats to work on training. There aren't any dog parks in my city but all the parks are "dog friendly" and I think it makes people pay a lot more attention to what their dogs are doing. The only thing that really irks me is that when scuffles break out, nobody goes in and grabs their dog. But it's still leaps and bounds above what I've seen back in the US.

quote:

I had no idea white GSDs were so screwed up. :( From what I knew looking at them mildly years ago, they were like white versions of American show dogs. Really sad that they're so all over the place.
They're really in a weird situation, it's kind of sad. They tend to be much softer than most GSDs and a lot of them have weird behavioral problems since pretty much no responsible breeder will touch them. I don't know, maybe becoming their own breed will help a lot of those problems. Or just turn them into ~fancy sheps~

quote:

GIVE IT A REST! :argh: Everyone else has taken discussion elsewhere, you're awesome, and I agree with you on everything you've been posting, but enough is enough! I'm stressed enough in my "real" life, I don't need it in PI, too, damnit. :argh:

Sorry :(

Triangulum fucked around with this message at 14:08 on Dec 14, 2012

Skizzles
Feb 21, 2009

Live, Laugh, Love,
Poop in a box.

Triangulum posted:

On the other, at this point breeding them indicates ignoring the standard and breeding for coat color, which I don't agree with.

This is why I personally don't agree with it. This and "panda" shepherds. Ugh.

Warbadger
Jun 17, 2006

Skizzles posted:

This is why I personally don't agree with it. This and "panda" shepherds. Ugh.

Coincidentally the creator of the breed disagreed and could have cared less about coat color. "A pleasing appearance is desirable, but it can not put the dog's working ability into question." is about as close to a discussion on coloration as he ever came. At no point on record did Max von Stephanitz differentiate between the white coat and what we now consider the standard coloration and it wasn't until literal Nazis started throwing weight around that the standard was changed to the current in the name of (what was considered at the time) progressive, scientific eugenics. Personally I would have no issue with undoing the change made to the standard seeing as it apparently had no real grounds to be made and was made a reality by recent history's most vicious authoritarian party with (tangentally related) dreams of ethnic cleansing.

Speaking of which, if you love GSDs do yourself a favor and check out his book "The German Shepherd Dog". He pretty clearly lays out his intentions for the breed and what the breed was/is supposed to be. It even has pictures!

Warbadger fucked around with this message at 23:36 on Dec 14, 2012

El Gar
Apr 12, 2007

Hey Trophy...

Warbadger posted:

Coincidentally the creator of the breed disagreed and could have cared less about coat color. "A pleasing appearance is desirable, but it can not put the dog's working ability into question." is about as close to a discussion on coloration as he ever came. At no point on record did Max von Stephanitz differentiate between the white coat and what we now consider the standard coloration and it wasn't until literal Nazis started throwing weight around that the standard was changed to the current in the name of (what was considered at the time) progressive, scientific eugenics. Personally I would have no issue with undoing the change made to the standard seeing as it apparently had no real grounds to be made and was made a reality by recent history's most vicious authoritarian party with (tangentally related) dreams of ethnic cleansing.

Speaking of which, if you love GSDs do yourself a favor and check out his book "The German Shepherd Dog". He pretty clearly lays out his intentions for the breed and what the breed was/is supposed to be. It even has pictures!

Changing the breed standard is not 'eugenics' please stop using this word as it has absolutely zero relevance in a discussion about breeding animals. Also what the gently caress is with your weird nazi fixation jeez. Take it back to your creepy nazi roleplay thread, thanks.

WolfensteinBag
Aug 7, 2003

So it was all your work?

Warbadger posted:

Coincidentally the creator of the breed disagreed and could have cared less about coat color. "A pleasing appearance is desirable, but it can not put the dog's working ability into question." is about as close to a discussion on coloration as he ever came.

I thought the reasoning for the darker pigment was to stand out against a flock of sheep? Obviously you always want to put working ability over color, but is it really not in Stephanitz's book? When I've heard people talk about the standard and color, I thought that's what they were referencing.

I really don't think there's a reason to amend the standard, now. If you can find the abilities and structure you're looking for in a dog who fits IN to the standard, what need is there for you to accept new colors all of a sudden? The only thing I would personally allow would be treating it as an outcross. Have the AKC and UKC (since both accept GSDs) allow outcrossing to specific dogs, be it white GSDs or "pandas" in order to expand the gene pool. Only thing with that, though, is finding dogs that DON'T fit in to standard that are actually still healthy. Opening the gene pool up will only do so much if the dogs are already genetic wrecks. Not like that adds anything good.

Anyway, I guess as I got to writing all that out, I wound up changing my mind. v:shobon:v haha I dunno, GSDs as a whole are a whole big issue, that's why I decided not to get into breeding them in the future.


haha I'm so sorry I was such an rear end this morning! I had just woken up excited to read new posts and saw the same problems continuing and was super tired. I didn't mean to be mean, I feel like I was scolding a child or something, I'm sorry!

Skizzles posted:

This is why I personally don't agree with it. This and "panda" shepherds. Ugh.

And King Shepherds, and Shiloh Shepherds...

Apparently, everyone in the world has an opinion on what the "perfect" shepherd is, based on their BYB dog they had growing up. :rolleyes:

Warbadger
Jun 17, 2006

WolfensteinBag posted:

I thought the reasoning for the darker pigment was to stand out against a flock of sheep? Obviously you always want to put working ability over color, but is it really not in Stephanitz's book? When I've heard people talk about the standard and color, I thought that's what they were referencing.

I really don't think there's a reason to amend the standard, now. If you can find the abilities and structure you're looking for in a dog who fits IN to the standard, what need is there for you to accept new colors all of a sudden? The only thing I would personally allow would be treating it as an outcross. Have the AKC and UKC (since both accept GSDs) allow outcrossing to specific dogs, be it white GSDs or "pandas" in order to expand the gene pool. Only thing with that, though, is finding dogs that DON'T fit in to standard that are actually still healthy. Opening the gene pool up will only do so much if the dogs are already genetic wrecks. Not like that adds anything good.

Anyway, I guess as I got to writing all that out, I wound up changing my mind. v:shobon:v haha I dunno, GSDs as a whole are a whole big issue, that's why I decided not to get into breeding them in the future.


haha I'm so sorry I was such an rear end this morning! I had just woken up excited to read new posts and saw the same problems continuing and was super tired. I didn't mean to be mean, I feel like I was scolding a child or something, I'm sorry!


And King Shepherds, and Shiloh Shepherds...

Apparently, everyone in the world has an opinion on what the "perfect" shepherd is, based on their BYB dog they had growing up. :rolleyes:

Nope, there was no official breed coloration mentioned in his book, at least not that I can find (or find any reference to it in his other writings online). White shepherds were present (though a rarer color) from the very beginning of the breeding right up to the end for the simple reason that Greif von Sparwasser, the grandfather of Horand von Grafrath was a white coated herding dog. The coloration was considered fine right up until 1933.

The Nazi party had declared a state of emergency in the 1930s and took control of pretty much everything they could, including the Verein fur Deutsche Shaferhund (the organization Max had founded which controlled the breed standard). Unfortunately for the GSD, the Nazi party was positively bananas about Eugenics -more famously tied to their various genocides and attempt to create a superior race of Aryan Übermensch- and they took interest in the GSD breed because it was a widely recognized and useful German dog. A bunch of the members of the Verein fur Deutsche Shaferhund were Nazis and through party connections put a shitload of pressure on Max to make changes to the breed. He refused, was harassed, and was supposedly even threatened with being "disappeared" to a camp before he gave up. He conceded his leadership at the SV and thus lost his control over the breed standard, which was quickly changed.

A belief held at the time was that the white shepherds were the source of many genetic problems including "fading out" that caused darker shepherd’s coats to pale into an light color and also a sign of albinism and "disease". All bullshit, of course. To that end the Nazi party made white coats a disqualifying feature in 1933 through the breed club and went a step further by having white GSD puppies drowned (this actually happened) and the associated records of their births destroyed. I believe they also killed off a lot of the existing white coated adult dogs, but there's less material on that.

The thing is, it's not a new color. It's an old color that was entirely within the bounds of the breed as determined by its creator and only disallowed because the most hated regime on the planet controlled the VS for a decade, spit in the face of the creator of the breed, and proceeded to change the standard by applying the same misguided theories to their favorite dog breed as they did to justify the genocide of millions of people. Nobody has identified any actual reason to disallow white coats or any associated genetic problems. It's just a different color and the *actual no-poo poo Nazis* said your dog can't be that color before being scoured from the face of the planet. That's enough reason for me to dislike it.

One more quote from Max von Stephanitz:
“No good dog can be a bad colour.”

Here's Greif von Sparwasser. A good dog.


Sorry about all the editing, but I had to look over a bunch of my old notes.


El Gar posted:

Changing the breed standard is not 'eugenics' please stop using this word as it has absolutely zero relevance in a discussion about breeding animals. Also what the gently caress is with your weird nazi fixation jeez. Take it back to your creepy nazi roleplay thread, thanks.

Actually, changing the breed standard to disallow white coats (to discourage their breeding) and attempting to kill the existing and newborn white coated dogs, all in an effort to improve the breed's genetics, is textbook eugenics. You should look up the word and check out the Nazi party's fixation on the theory. Here's a handy place to start if you'd like to know why it's a useful word when discussing dog breeding (aside from the connection in this case to the loving Nazi party): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purebred_%28dog%29#Eugenics_and_history

Also, I play the communists in the internet tank game not the facists thankyouverymuch.


Warbadger fucked around with this message at 06:32 on Dec 15, 2012

El Gar
Apr 12, 2007

Hey Trophy...


They're just dogs, dude.


Here is my GSD story. During college I worked at a commercial appliance repair shop. We had a shop dog named Rider and he was the friendliest dog ever. A real buddy. He was your pal if you came in through the shop. If you came in through the fenced back lot he was not your buddy. He was loud and barked. One day I got to work and everyone was having a good laugh cause some thief had hopped the back fence looking for some scrap metal to steal or something. Rider chased him into a dumpster and the guy had to call 911 to have the cops come rescue him.

What a good dog.

Triangulum
Oct 3, 2007

by Lowtax
Warbadger, you're correct about there being no disallowed coat colors prior to the Nazi party taking control of the SV (though deeper pigmentation has always been preferred) and that everyone should read "The German Shepherd Dog in Word and Picture". It's a pretty awesome book as long as you can get past Stephanitz's weird tangents and ramblings about savages (suprise surprise, he had some pretty... interesting opinions abour race too). It just came out for Kindle too so it's way cheaper than it used to be. I think the ebook version runs about $9.

Personally I don't think there's any huge issue with changing the standard to accept a larger variaty of coat colors but honestly, it's not going to happen. Various clubs have been in a huge battle with the AKC over the current interpretation of the standard. Some clubs have wanted aspects of the standard changed to make it clearer that frogdogs are not in fact the ideal GSD and wanted to implement German-style breed surveys before GSDs can be bred but they haven't really gotten anywhere. Some other breed clubs are having similar battles with the AKC over changing the standard and are getting precisely nowhere.

That being said, the reason most of us disagree with white shepherds, Panda Shepherds, Shilo Shepherds, and King Shepherds being recognized as their own breed (or being bred at all) is because they're being bred only for color (in the case of the first two) or size (in the case of the latter two). GSDs already have tons of issues with soundness and intentionally breeding them larger and larger exacerbates this problem. Whites, pandas, blues, livers, and goldens aren't being intentionally bred to improve the breed, they're being bred for their "rare" coat coloration and that's it. We've already seen what happens to GSDs being bred for looks alone, that's how the show strains got so hosed up.

If the standard is going to be changed it should be to help improve the physical and tempermental soundess of the breed not because other coat colors are nifty and weird guilt about ~eugenics~ and Nazis. Likewise, if the weird varients of GSDs are going to be their own breed, they need to be working towards a purpose besides "they look cool".

Triangulum fucked around with this message at 10:27 on Dec 15, 2012

WolfensteinBag
Aug 7, 2003

So it was all your work?

El Gar posted:

Here is my GSD story. During college I worked at a commercial appliance repair shop. We had a shop dog named Rider and he was the friendliest dog ever. A real buddy. He was your pal if you came in through the shop. If you came in through the fenced back lot he was not your buddy. He was loud and barked. One day I got to work and everyone was having a good laugh cause some thief had hopped the back fence looking for some scrap metal to steal or something. Rider chased him into a dumpster and the guy had to call 911 to have the cops come rescue him.

What a good dog.

Waaaiiiitttt a minute..... did Gar just say something nice about a dog? :3: This seriously made my day.

Warbadger posted:

White shepherds were present (though a rarer color) from the very beginning of the breeding

I had heard about this...

quote:

A belief held at the time was that the white shepherds were the source of many genetic problems including "fading out" that caused darker shepherd’s coats to pale into an light color and also a sign of albinism and "disease".

and this, but I guess I didn't know as much about the *~*drama*~* around it. I'd like to point out, though, that culling unwanted dogs is absolutely not a new thing or restricted to the Nazis. :( When they started creating Czechoslovakian Vlcaks in the 50s there was a LOT of culling going on. Since the dogs were being used for actual military work, and they were being bred back to wolves who have a lovely working temperament, only a few of the puppies in a litter would make the cut. :( Even now, you'll get lovely breeders hiding "mistakes" in their litters like puppies with dwarfism by not admitting they were born or just saying they mysteriously "died" because they don't want people thinking their lines are unhealthy. Obviously, the breed clubs are all trying to fix this, and I can't imagine it's a problem in the US since there are only a handful of owners/breeders here, but in parts of Europe there are still some shady people.

Triangulum posted:

Various clubs have been in a huge battle with the AKC over the current interpretation of the standard. Some clubs have wanted aspects of the standard changed to make it clearer that frogdogs are not in fact the ideal GSD and wanted to implement German-style breed surveys before GSDs can be bred but they haven't really gotten anywhere. Some other breed clubs are having similar battles with the AKC over changing the standard and are getting precisely nowhere.

They actually HAVE changed the UKC standard!! :dance: :toot:

Revised Standard posted:

Revised May 1, 2012

The goals and purposes of this breed standard include: to furnish guidelines for breeders who wish to maintain the quality of their breed and to improve it; to advance this breed to a state of similarity throughout the world; and to act as a guide for judges. Breeders and judges have the responsibility to avoid any conditions or exaggerations that are detrimental to the health, welfare, essence and soundness of this breed, and must take the responsibility to see that these are not perpetuated.

Any departure from the following should be considered a fault, and the seriousness with which the fault should be regarded should be in exact proportion to its degree and its effect upon the health and welfare of the dog and on the dog’s ability to perform its traditional work.

The tendencies toward exaggeration and steep angles are unacceptable. German Shepherd Dogs with unstable temperaments, sharply angulated croups, overly long front and rear pasterns, and hocks that are weak and wobbly are poor representations of this working breed. UKC is unwilling to condone the validity of using exaggerated specimens of this breed in a breeding program and, to preserve its health and vibrancy, cautions judges about awarding wins to these representatives.

This is my absolute favorite line, "The outline of the German Shepherd Dog is made up of smooth curves rather than angles," because that's how I view my ideal dog, and this whole thing is why I'm going to be showing my next dog whenever I get it. :3: Even if I decide to spay, the UKC has an altered dog competition so I can still get showing experience for the future. :dance:

Going back to CsVs (since there is so much overlap) the US breed club is actually working towards the same things in regards to breeding rights. As it is, you have to have a whole list of health testing done before a litter will be allowed to be posted with the club, and refusal to do this will get you kicked out (and already has with at least one person). They're also developing a competition similar to Schutzhund, but tailored towards CsVs with more emphasis on trailing and endurance. I love, love, love that people are becoming more concerned with these sorts of things in the US, makes me hopeful for dog owners here. :)

quote:

That being said, the reason most of us disagree with white shepherds, Panda Shepherds, Shilo Shepherds, and King Shepherds being recognized as their own breed (or being bred at all) is because they're being bred only for color (in the case of the first two) or size (in the case of the latter two). GSDs already have tons of issues with soundness and intentionally breeding them larger and larger exacerbates this problem. Whites, pandas, blues, livers, and goldens aren't being intentionally bred to improve the breed, they're being bred for their "rare" coat coloration and that's it. We've already seen what happens to GSDs being bred for looks alone, that's how the show strains got so hosed up.

If the standard is going to be changed it should be to help improve the physical and tempermental soundess of the breed not because other coat colors are nifty and weird guilt about ~eugenics~ and Nazis. Likewise, if the weird varients of GSDs are going to be their own breed, they need to be working towards a purpose besides "they look cool".

Yep, all of this. :(

Triangulum
Oct 3, 2007

by Lowtax
That's really cool that the UKC changed the standard :toot:

Hey Wolfenstein, do you wanna borrow my ebook copy of The German Shepherd Dog in Word and Picture? I can lend it to you through Amazon.

Today a police officer told my husband that if we ever decided to get rid of Vecna to give them a call because they could really use some more good dogs on the force :kimchi: He said he really liked how good Vecna's recall and emergency "leave it" is

Good dog.

Ginny Field
Dec 18, 2007

What if there is some boy-beast running around Camp Crystal Lake?
This is Lexi.







She belongs to my grandparents, and is an absolute sweetheart of a dog. They've owned GSDs for as long as I can remember, and when they wanted a dog they usually just found someone with a litter and bought one. This time, they encountered a BYB who was looking to get out of shepherds and into smaller dogs. These folks had an adult female shepherd they were looking to get rid of, and it was pretty much love at first sight.

Lexi hadn't lived much life outside of a crate before they brought her home, but she adapted quickly and bonded so incredibly strongly with my grandfather. She's about... nine, now, I guess? It's amazing what she's done for my grandparents. They always had this sort of strict mindset of "dog stays outside, people stay inside" (I guess it may have been a generational thing) but from the beginning Lexi was allowed in the house and utterly spoiled. It's not uncommon to find her stretched out on the couch these days, which I never would have imagined they'd allow before they brought her home.

She's crazily vocal, and sings and makes woo-woooing sounds when she's excited.

She's very sensitive, frightened of loud noises (fireworks send her leaping into the bathtub), and she reacted to my grandpa going into the hospital for heart surgery a few years ago by chewing her own foot to ribbons.

But she's got the sweetest temperament of any dog I've ever known. She'll sit on your feet and lean against you for pets. She's got an intimidating bark but just wants to run up to strangers and kiss them. My grandfather takes her with him everywhere in the car. :3:

Tasty_Crayon
Jul 29, 2006
Same story, different version.

:swoon: Those beauty marks!

Warbadger
Jun 17, 2006

Triangulum posted:

That being said, the reason most of us disagree with white shepherds, Panda Shepherds, Shilo Shepherds, and King Shepherds being recognized as their own breed (or being bred at all) is because they're being bred only for color (in the case of the first two) or size (in the case of the latter two). GSDs already have tons of issues with soundness and intentionally breeding them larger and larger exacerbates this problem. Whites, pandas, blues, livers, and goldens aren't being intentionally bred to improve the breed, they're being bred for their "rare" coat coloration and that's it. We've already seen what happens to GSDs being bred for looks alone, that's how the show strains got so hosed up.


People breed specifically for colors regardless of the standard. There are plenty of white dogs out there that are not products of breeding specifically for the coat color and it's not a coincidence that you generally see dogs bred specifically for white in places where the color falls outside the breed standard.

The comparison to King Shepherds or anything else that isn't just a color swap in the coat is a strawman. It doesn't matter whether breeding for larger dogs introduces health issues because the white coat (or any other color coat for that matter) doesn't.

White shepherds still exist regardless of whether you breed explicitly for them or not. Due to the recessive nature of the trait responsible it has not been entirely wiped out and remains present to varying degrees in the US and Germany. On top of that many places never accepted the change to the breed standard. In Canada, for example, the CSC only began penalizing white coats in 1998, largely due to pressure to conform to the existing rule in Germany/The US. Plenty of white shepherds in those places that are not products of breeding for the color.

Triangulum posted:

If the standard is going to be changed it should be to help improve the physical and tempermental soundess of the breed not because other coat colors are nifty and weird guilt about ~eugenics~ and Nazis.

I agree that we should strive for changes to the rules that would help improve the physical and temperamental soundness of the breed. So why support retaining a *change* that did and continues to do the exact opposite in any case it actually applies? This rule does nothing but define one of the existing coat colors as "not nifty enough" regardless of any actual consideration of health. Every time a dog is excluded based on coat color rather than health it damages the breed. Sure, you won't save the breed in one stroke by making a change like this but it at least has the potential to help unfuck things a little bit in cases where dogs are actually being selected for health.

I also fail to see the issue with reversing a change that is at best arbitrary, at worst harmful, the ideological product of a mass murdering regime, and was only made in the first place through threats and strongarm tactics by said regime. No guilt required in that decision and I'm not sure why you think there would be.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

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WolfensteinBag
Aug 7, 2003

So it was all your work?

Warbadger posted:

I agree that we should strive for changes to the rules that would help improve the physical and temperamental soundness of the breed. So why support retaining a *change* that did and continues to do the exact opposite in any case it actually applies? This rule does nothing but define one of the existing coat colors as "not nifty enough" regardless of any actual consideration of health. Every time a dog is excluded based on coat color rather than health it damages the breed. Sure, you won't save the breed in one stroke by making a change like this but it at least has the potential to help unfuck things a little bit in cases where dogs are actually being selected for health.

We already talked about it, it's not that the color's "not nifty enough," it's that the darker colors are preferred to lighter ones based on visibility against livestock and snow. I see absolutely zero problem with leaving these lighter colors as a fault. You realize that people that breed responsibly WILL use dogs with faults if what they bring to the table outweighs them, right? Discounting show breeders (who are always breeding for "looks", so hardly fall into the responsible sector as far as this discussion goes) anyone doing what they are supposed to are looking at genetic health (weighing pros and cons of their lines and what's been tested for), sound structure, and working ability/temperament. If a dog is an awesome example of the breed but has a splash of white or washed out color, they're still going to be used.

As far as PURE white dogs goes, I'm sorry that I'm bias here, but from what I've seen, these dogs tend to follow more (in the US at least) the American Showline type and temperament and are bred predominantly for show. If this is the case, then, yes, people are breeding them just for the color. It might just be me, but I haven't seen these dogs going high level sport, and I'm guessing it would be a far stretch to find a white dog that could compete both temperamentally and structurally with working line dogs. If the goal is to continually improve your lines, you would want a particularly spectacular dog to breed with and I just can't see it coming from these white lines.

The comparison to those other types of shepherds is just based on the breeder's motives. Color, "family companions", oversized "old world shepherds", these are all just people selling family pets without regard to what the original goal of the breed was, and are only looking to produce puppies without proving them outside of conformation first.

Warbadger posted:

the ideological product of a mass murdering regime

Dude, give it a rest! It doesn't matter who made the revision, just that it happened. If it was just some group that happened to not like white dogs, you wouldn't be able to use the same argument, there's nothing "evil" about it. :rolleyes:

Triangulum
Oct 3, 2007

by Lowtax
Dude war badger, you're completely ignoring most of what anyone is posting and just harping on eugenics and other weird poo poo. I'm seriously done arguing with you, it's like talking to a Nazi obsessed brick wall.


I think you might have missed this:

Triangulum posted:

Hey Wolfenstein, do you wanna borrow my ebook copy of The German Shepherd Dog in Word and Picture? I can lend it to you through Amazon.

Actually though if anyone else wants to borrow it, lemme know. I have a couple copies of it and it's a pretty interesting (if wordy as hell) book.

WolfensteinBag
Aug 7, 2003

So it was all your work?

I was JUST thinking about how I forgot that!!! I would LOVE to!!! Thanks!!! I have NO idea how it works, though.

Warbadger
Jun 17, 2006

WolfensteinBag posted:

We already talked about it, it's not that the color's "not nifty enough," it's that the darker colors are preferred to lighter ones based on visibility against livestock and snow. I see absolutely zero problem with leaving these lighter colors as a fault.

The changes weren't made for that reason, though. It was originally made to combat the stated "health issues" in 1930s Germany (coat color fading, albinism, etc.) and later for much the same reason, specifically "coat color fading" in darker coated dogs by the GSDCA in the 1960s. They did not hide their reasons for making these decisions and the "visibility against snow/animals" explanation only came about later on when the reasons above started to look silly. It also makes little sense when you consider:

1) The varying coloration of animals and landscapes they work in. A white dog will stand out better among black/brown livestock and a dark black/brown dog will blend in spectacularly with scrub and dirt. You can cherry pick a livestock coloration and opposite palette environment in which the same two arguments could be made for any common color pattern of GSD. It actually makes a lot of sense for a utilitarian breed to exhibit a range of colors - because there is no universally useful or detrimental color for a general-use working dog.

2) White coats were present in some of the best performing dogs in the predecessor "german shepherd dogs" that this breed standard was based upon -where it does not appear to have been considered a detriment- and the pure white color remains the norm in many other herding breeds where it does not appear to be considered a disadvantage.

3) Higher and lower visibility is as often an advantage as a disadvantage. For example, the US Air Force avoids white dogs for patrols around airstrips here in the US (they're still present in some of the sourced working lines) because they're more visible at night. Some Eastern European border patrols/military meanwhile favored the white colored dogs because they were LESS visible in snowy areas. Meanwhile among SAR dogs high visibility is actually considered an advantage - so a disadvantage in snowy places and advantage pretty much anywhere else.



WolfensteinBag posted:

You realize that people that breed responsibly WILL use dogs with faults if what they bring to the table outweighs them, right? Discounting show breeders (who are always breeding for "looks", so hardly fall into the responsible sector as far as this discussion goes) anyone doing what they are supposed to are looking at genetic health (weighing pros and cons of their lines and what's been tested for), sound structure, and working ability/temperament. If a dog is an awesome example of the breed but has a splash of white or washed out color, they're still going to be used.


Yes, and they may not use them if they judge that the disqualifying fault of white fur outweighs actual health benefits they bring to the table. Discounting show breeders who are breeding for appearance, anyone doing what they're supposed to be doing should be looking at genetic health - which at this point we know has nothing to do with what color the fur is. A rule that differentiates based on color without regard for health can only have a negative influence in those situations - there is no positive decision that can be made on that criteria.

Anyone who doesn't care will do what they want to do regardless of what the standard is, as you've pointed out yourself. It doesn't really matter if they show a white colored dog with frog-legs and call it a GSD rather than a tan and black colored dog with frog-legs.

WolfensteinBag posted:

As far as PURE white dogs goes, I'm sorry that I'm bias here, but from what I've seen, these dogs tend to follow more (in the US at least) the American Showline type and temperament and are bred predominantly for show. If this is the case, then, yes, people are breeding them just for the color. It might just be me, but I haven't seen these dogs going high level sport, and I'm guessing it would be a far stretch to find a white dog that could compete both temperamentally and structurally with working line dogs. If the goal is to continually improve your lines, you would want a particularly spectacular dog to breed with and I just can't see it coming from these white lines.

In places where the GSD breed standard disqualifies for white coats, such as the US, it's detrimental for any GSD breeder to have lines containing or to advertise white dogs in their lines if they give a drat about the breed standard or sell to people who do. That also carries over into what GSDs people compete with - the white dog is not as desirable regardless of how it performs because it has a disqualifying cosmetic trait.

Examples of the pure white dogs doing high level sport are not that hard to find (first one to come up on google was Vom Sutumer Grund's dogs - there have been quite a few). The "Berger Blanc Suisse" you see showing up in European competitions now, for example, are just GSDs bred from US White Shepherds purchased in the 1970s while breeders in the US were busy trying to get rid of them.

WolfensteinBag posted:

The comparison to those other types of shepherds is just based on the breeder's motives. Color, "family companions", oversized "old world shepherds", these are all just people selling family pets without regard to what the original goal of the breed was, and are only looking to produce puppies without proving them outside of conformation first.

I know that, however the "original" goal of the breed had nothing to do with color as supported by the opinions on record of the person who set those goals. This is a stance supported by current science. I do not believe that excluding white dogs based on coat color is consistent with the original goal for the breed (even more so considering how strongly the change was resisted and by whom). It is no better than an institutionalized version of the above.


WolfensteinBag posted:

Dude, give it a rest! It doesn't matter who made the revision, just that it happened. If it was just some group that happened to not like white dogs, you wouldn't be able to use the same argument, there's nothing "evil" about it. :rolleyes:

I personally think it does matter WHY they made the revision and that it relates to who made it. Nonetheless, if it had been some other group you could still make the same argument - that it was still a baseless revision with at best no beneficial results, based on a false premise, which was implemented originally only through threats and intimidation.

Don't misunderstand me, it's not a super high priority thing because the affected dogs are (at least here in the US) relatively rare now and selecting against healthier white dogs isn't really going to be a common thing compared to say - continuing the lines of frog-dogs with wet noodles for joints. The benefits of keeping it around are nonexistent but at this point most of the damage has already been done. I'll leave it at this point because the discussion is already veering into what-ifs and generalizations on people's decision making, which aren't things I expect can be proven either way.

Warbadger fucked around with this message at 22:28 on Dec 18, 2012

Triangulum
Oct 3, 2007

by Lowtax

WolfensteinBag posted:

I was JUST thinking about how I forgot that!!! I would LOVE to!!! Thanks!!! I have NO idea how it works, though.

I need the email address linked to your Amazon account and that's it. You can download the Kindle reader for your PC here. You'll have the book for 14 days but I can relend it if that's not long enough apparently not, I can only loan it once.

Triangulum fucked around with this message at 22:23 on Dec 18, 2012

a life less
Jul 12, 2009

We are healthy only to the extent that our ideas are humane.

Warbadger posted:

- and the pure white color remains the norm in many other herding breeds where it does not appear to be considered a disadvantage.

Which ones?

Chido
Dec 7, 2003

Butterflies fluttering on my face!

a life less posted:

Which ones?

Maremma :smug: oh wait...

WolfensteinBag
Aug 7, 2003

So it was all your work?

Triangulum posted:

I need the email address linked to your Amazon account and that's it. You can download the Kindle reader for your PC here. You'll have the book for 14 days but I can relend it if that's not long enough apparently not, I can only loan it once.

Ok, I'll talk to my husband. After this week, I'm off until the 3rd, so I'll probably read it then. :dance: That is SO awesome, I've always wanted to pick up a hard copy, but it's so expensive!

Triangulum
Oct 3, 2007

by Lowtax

WolfensteinBag posted:

Ok, I'll talk to my husband. After this week, I'm off until the 3rd, so I'll probably read it then. :dance: That is SO awesome, I've always wanted to pick up a hard copy, but it's so expensive!

Awesome :3: All the cool GSD books are insanely expensive, it's such a bummer. I really want a copy of The German Shepherd: A Genetic History and German Shepherd Champions 1952-1980 but they're really pricey. The first one runs about $100 :gonk: That's why I was so happy about The German Shepherd in Word and Picture coming out for Kindle, you can get it for $9 now (of course it comes out after I alread shelled out $50 for a hardcover version).

Warbadger
Jun 17, 2006

a life less posted:

Which ones?

White coats are common with the Samoyed, Polish Lowland Sheepdog, Hungarian Puli, Polish Tatra Sheepdog, and the Old English Sheepdog probably counts too. There's also the pile of livestock guarding dogs with white coats like the Great Pyrenees or Maremma, some breeds in that category are/were used for herding as well.

ButWhatIf
Jun 24, 2009

HA HA HA

Warbadger posted:

White coats are common with the Samoyed, Polish Lowland Sheepdog, Hungarian Puli, Polish Tatra Sheepdog, and the Old English Sheepdog probably counts too. There's also the pile of livestock guarding dogs with white coats like the Great Pyrenees or Maremma, some breeds in that category are/were used for herding as well.

Livestock guardian breeds aren't herding breeds. The vast majority of those dogs you just listed are not "sheepdogs" in the herding sense, but guardian dogs.

And from the breed standard of the Old English Sheepdog:
Color
Any shade of gray, grizzle, blue or blue merle with or without white markings or in reverse. Any shade of brown or fawn to be considered distinctly objectionable and not to be encouraged.


I own an actual herding breed, and the standard definitely states that white is not to predominate.

ButWhatIf fucked around with this message at 23:17 on Dec 18, 2012

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Triangulum
Oct 3, 2007

by Lowtax
Of the breeds you listed only two are straight up herding dogs, one of which does not accept solid white dogs (Old English Sheepdog). Livestock guardian dogs are not the same thing as herding dogs.

e: f,b

Triangulum fucked around with this message at 23:30 on Dec 18, 2012

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