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FrozenVent posted:I've heard stories, from multiple sources, of crew hearing banging coming from the container stack in the middle of the voyage. There's no way for the crew to access those containers, so welp. Well, that just depressed the living gently caress out of me. Thanks for the education on human trafficking anyways. CeeJee posted:Rewatching it I just noticed Johnny Fifty says he'll take the Fifth Commandment instead of Amandment. Which is either "honour your father and mother" or "you shall not murder", depending on how you count them. Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 02:04 on Jan 13, 2013 |
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Jan 13, 2013 01:58
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Unzip and Attack posted:"get on with it motherfucker" Note how this is also Stringer's last words.
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Jan 14, 2013 13:51
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Jerusalem posted:Omar arrives at what appears to be a warehouse office shadowed by one of Prop Joe's Muscle. Prop Joe himself is sitting at a desk flanked by more muscle, and Omar drops the garbage sack worth of stash onto the desk. Joe is delighted to see the drugs are Avon's, more because it tickles him pink that Omar has Avon's entire organization hunting him and still had time to rip him off again. So what does Omar want for the drugs? Nothing at all, it's free, a price that startles Joe. All that Omar wants is a way to get in touch with Avon, and he figures that Joe is one of the few people outside of Avon's inner circle who can do that. Joe admits this is true, they've been known to talk from time to time, he pages him. Omar says he can make that work, all he needs is Avon's number and a way to make him think he's receiving a call from one of his own. Joe can handle that too, Wee-Bey uses an 07 at the end of his calls to let people know it is him calling.... but why should he? Why not just take these drugs and have his Muscle kill Omar right here and now? Omar isn't concerned, knowing that Joe is a long-term thinker, and that if Avon goes then the entire West Side is opened up again. Joe goes back over the facts - Avon owes him 100k on the basketball game, Joe now has some of his drugs for free AND has the chance to set Omar's "predatory rear end" on Avon. He grins, today just isn't Avon's day, and Omar lets his pleasure/relief wash over him - Joe is going to play ball. OK so this scene bugs me. We are told repeatedly by the police and shown in Avon's scenes that never in a million years would he touch drugs. He probably wouldn't even be in the same room or even building with them. So why is Prop Joe just fine handling 4G packs here? Why is our long term thinker not even the slightest concerned that this trivial amount, as we've just learned how much a high up drug dealer makes, could put him away for years? Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 22:51 on Mar 19, 2013 |
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Mar 19, 2013 22:34
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Jerusalem posted:Joe - at this point - has absolutely no reason to believe that Omar would be working with the police, or that he would try and pull a set-up on him like this. It probably helps that this is Joe's first appearance and they hadn't quite nailed his character down yet. Avon nor Stringer are doing any dealing with people involved with the police either, yet they'd never in a million years handle drugs from anyone no matter how much they trust them, just to be safe. A scene with either of them handling drugs like Prop Joe does in this episode would be unbelievable. I can see "haven't figured out the character yet", but it's still interesting to note that this is thus a highly atypical situation.
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Mar 19, 2013 22:50
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Maybe it also has something to do with the game? I mean, look at the season 5 ending montage, how is that anything but "same dude, different name"?
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Apr 30, 2013 11:55
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Small correction: you say "Amsterdam" instead of "Rotterdam" once.
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May 5, 2013 23:04
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Jerusalem posted:FBI gets what they wanted out of the case anyway - shutting down a Union. I think this goes to the heart of season 2. We already had that one scene with Frank's Speech which everyone agrees is perhaps the most important scene in season 2. Well, this is the response to Frank and his Union standing up to Bobby Kennedy, Tricky Dick and Ronny the Union Buster. He might think they lived through that, but really, they didn't. Their foundations were eroded, more power was given to law enforcement and sooner or later it catches up to them. It's a fight between two institutions, and so it takes place on a bigger scale and takes more time, but ultimately the results are clear, power was taken from the Unions and given to the institutions of the Police, the FBI, the Justice Department and so on. While most of The Wire might be about individuals vs institutions, this one is about institution vs institution, and the people caught in the middle. We kind of see another scenario of this with the FBI vs the Police meeting and the contrast of that meeting with the animosity between the two institutions in season 1. In this story we also must realize, that literally every single person on this show is entirely insignificant. This fight between institutions is just so much bigger than them that none of them matter in any way, shape or form. They are all just caught in the middle. Hearing the music they must dance, but none of them get to change the tune. The Greek, who isn't even Greek, and his escape and untouchability further underlines just how insignificant everything that happens on this show ultimately is. It's also the key point in the fight between the institutions of the Police and the the FBI. Clearly, the FBI, being more powerful, wins, even at the expense of some of the work of some of its own agents. There's only one person we get to see on the whole show who maybe, possibly could have changed the tune. We don't get to meet him until next season, as a contrast to all the completely insignificant actors we've known so far, but then things go right back to individual vs institution, and we once again get to see how the institution triumphs and things keep on going the way they were, in no small part due to the disconnect between this person and the daily lives of all the people we've looked at in detail so far. Why this disconnect? Why, because they don't really matter, not even to him, ofcourse. Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 13:03 on May 19, 2013 |
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May 19, 2013 12:46
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I don't know that it is accurate to say that the Greek is the international crime ring. He seems to me to just be a shipping company. He's got ways to move goods in bulk by boat, doesn't really care what those goods are and can evade legal issues such as customs. I think it's actually rather odd that he seems possibly more directly involved with the brothel.
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May 20, 2013 17:03
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Jerusalem posted:I really wish I could better articulate my feelings on the abandonment of the working man (and woman!), because holy God does it come through strong in The Wire, particularly in this season. Other seasons show us the cost of the War on Drugs, the nightmare that is the school system, the "game" of politics etc but the overall theme for me is in how a gigantic section of the population has been abandoned/let-down in modern day America. Season 2 just brings it into a tighter focus. Systemic risk. Systemic risk is a finance term for the risk of the entire loving system completely collapsing. You can't hedge against it, you can't insure against it, and when it goes, it goes big. The mortgage crisis was systemic risk. It's really a euphemism for the failure of capitalism, ie. the risk of the system failing. A way to bring Marx into the discussion without bringing *Marx* into the discussion. If a systemic risk exists, well, you flip a coin often enough, it's going to come up on its sides eventually. Basically, things will fall the gently caress apart and nobody who knows anything even denies it anymore, they just cover it with fancy words. So what gives? Ever seen a business model that takes into account the long term effects the layoffs from that closed factory will have on the economic climate? Of course not. At best that'd be designated an externality, ie. outside of the model/system. Probably though nobody would even think about it. In other words, such things never factor into the decision. It's part tragedy of the commons, part short termism and part gently caress you got mine. Even government is rarely convinced to do the right and decent thing by sensible long term economic arguments such as having a decent safety net lowers crime in a way that is much cheaper than putting more funding into the police and building yet another prison. You see systemic risk every day. Systemic risk is that single mom working multiple jobs and still not making the bills. Systemic risk is that long term unemployed blue collar worker with no prospects and no future. Systemic risk is that college graduate hundreds of thousands into debt with a best case scenario of being debt free by 50, but probably can't even get a job in her field because she has no experience. Systemic risk is that junkie ripping up a copper wire for another hit. Systemic risk is that homeless man you step over on the way to work. It's these people society has chosen to abandon. The ones who don't fit the models anymore and are thus assumed for the sake of the models not to exist. But models are simplifications of reality, and the reality is, they still exist, and nobody cares. Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 11:28 on May 26, 2013 |
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May 26, 2013 02:56
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cletepurcel posted:I once heard a criticism of the show that its impossible to really enjoy it on a deep level unless you're already a liberal and I think this season embodies that the most. I don't understand how you can really enjoy and understand this show on a deep level and still be a liberal. cletepurcel posted:It's interesting how this season, which is maybe the single most depressing ending next to season 4 (which at least had the lone bright spot of Namond escaping) is also the one that most directly deals with capitalism, with its main villain directly meant to symbolize it. I just thought on this and my mind went to that other villain meant to symbolize capitalism, Marlo. When Marlo and the Greek, both representing capitalism, meet, something very interesting happens. Marlo brings a lot of money he obviously doesn't need and the Greek doesn't care for it. When these two successful ultra-capitalists meet, money doesn't matter, it's not a factor. There's something in here about the marginal utility of money, ie. they both have so much that a suitcase more or less doesn't really impact them, and also their mutual addiction. They have more money than they need or know what to do with, yet they keep on accumulating more. For Marlo we learn later it's never been about the money but about the street cred, but for the Greek? Maybe it's the money, maybe the power, maybe just the satisfaction of doing something he's good at, but either way, this is a meeting between two addicts whose addictions are harmful in the extreme for everyone they come in contact with. And yet, if it weren't for their particular trades being so illegal, they'd be celebrated as great successes. A young black man from the ghetto and an immigrant making it big in America. The American Dream. Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 11:50 on May 26, 2013 |
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May 26, 2013 11:38
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Plus, you know, dude's old and given his line of work, probably seen some poo poo. Maybe he's running away from whatever his past or family is or what have you by burying himself in his work.
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May 27, 2013 18:51
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ScipioAfro posted:I'm guessing Orange Devil was taking a Phil Ochs view of liberal america. This right here. What liberal policies fail? Well, it depends on how you define fail and what your goals are, but I'd say pretty much all of them. Then again, I'm a socialist. Stuff like Hamsterdam is presented as a solution to the drug problem. It's simultaneously true and absurd. It's true in that "the drug problem" in the US involves its travesty of a prison system, the disproportionate sentencing of young black men, the damage this does to black communities and inner city communities, but ofcourse also, as we see, white blue collar areas. It's all the petty crime from junkies like Bubbles. It's the drug moneys corrupting influence on politics, it's the police focusing resources on drugs rather than other crimes and the predictable results, including the stats game, etcetera etcetera. But then I'm Dutch, I live in the country that is the inspiration for Hamsterdam, and let me be clear: the drug problem isn't solved. Now, a lot of those issues I just mentioned, it is true that we either don't have them or they are greatly diminished. That's legitimately great and it makes life better for a lot of people. However, we still have addiction. We still have people ruining their life on the needle or the pipe. So no, the drug problem isn't solved, and how could it be? The causes of those addictions (and many if not all other harmful addictions) still exist here. It's true that those, too, aren't as prevalent as the US, given how our recent history has been one of social democracy, as opposed to the US, which has been more laissez-faire, especially since the rise of neoliberalism with Reagan. Canadian Prof. Bruce K. Alexander has done some wonderful writing about addiction, what it is and what causes it in our societies. He makes a convincing case that the current form of globalization and capitalism have a lot to do with it. It's those root causes that I feel very strongly that need to be addressed to really deal with the drug problem. Decriminalization, treating addiction as illness rather than crime, gedoogbeleid, needle exchange programmes, HIV tests, and so on and so forth are all good, but ultimately deal with symptoms and control the damage, rather than address the underlying isuses. I think the Wire is a show that excels at showing that the whole system is hosed, but not just hosed but fundamentally a part of the problems it, at least in theory, exists to address. They're a part of the game. And the game is rigged. You can't just reform these institutions, they are too big and have too much inertia and they will change you before you change them. For me, the ultimate conclusion is that we must do away with the very principles these institutions currently are grounded in and the culture they operate in, in order for them to become forces for good in this world. For some institutions, most desirable would be getting rid of them altogether. Season 2 has a similar story about how capitalism's hosed in relation to the middle class, specifically in this case the blue collar part of it, or what's left of that anyway. Season 3 shows us just why reform isn't an option. Season 4 shows the rot is also in the schooling system, and season 5 shows it extends to the media as well.
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May 29, 2013 21:53
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I feel that this show managed to so seamlessly and apparently effortlessly tie in such parallels to the Iraq War due to the War on Terror and the War on Drugs being the same bullshit. The same bullshit pushed by the same people for the same reason. Only difference is the location and the targets.
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Jun 3, 2013 17:19
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cletepurcel posted:Stringer and Randy both had the dream growing up of owning some grocery stores Haha, Stringer as the petit-bourgeois shop owner. Buy for one sell for two but with dreams of going big. He's going to start a franchise someday, y'see. He'll slowly grow his business by prudent decisions and solid understanding of economics, he even took classes at the local community college. Sadly what he's not aware of the limits of his own understanding. The game's rigged, and it doesn't at all work the way eco101 textbooks will tell you. His little podunk store ain't never gonna be the next Wallmart. But he tries and works hard and keeps outta trouble, just an all-american hard working shop owner dreaming of doing a little better. That'd be Stringer if he wasn't from the ghetto. If he didn't have to do deal with too much race related poo poo he might even be one of those black people who votes Republican, cus they're good for small businesses like his, or so he believes. You see, it's business for him and he's willing to let certain things slide. Yeah he knows there's some race related nastiness in the past, but the current party is different, honest, they even had Cain up there in the primaries leading the polls dontchaknow? I dunno, maybe I'm way off, but that's sort of the naivete I'm starting to see in Stringer upon deeper reflection caused by this thread. Avon not from the ghetto might make it big, but Stringer the big successful business man? I just don't know if I see it. As somebody said, 10 year old understood the street better than he did, and he was just as much from those streets as they were. Alternatively maybe he'd be stuck in middle management somewhere with dreams of promotion.
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Jun 17, 2013 23:47
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In the Kima-McNulty scene, does 910587 mean anything to anyone? Some googling leads me to Fayetteville, North Carolina, which apparently "has received the prestigious All-America City Award from the National Civic League three times" but it doesn't really jump out to me as a reference. Anyone else got anything, or is it just a number on an old cart?
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Jun 18, 2013 10:39
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Thaddius the Large posted:I love how Avon is almost incredulous at the amount, like he expected Cutty to request millions. Given the reaction, he probably would've seriously considered it if Cutty asked him for like 50-75K.
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Jul 4, 2013 01:19
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ChikoDemono posted:Chris has his family that he seemed to enjoy being around. He was worried that Omar would go after them. He's a stone cold killer, but not completely dead inside. Just look at what he did for Michael, and what that tells us about his own past.
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Jul 16, 2013 00:18
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cletepurcel posted:I've always felt its quite deliberate that the head enforcer for all 3 of the major organizations - Wee-Bey, Chris and Sergei - all take the most heat for their bosses, with life sentences. I think Wee-Bey and Chris at the prison fence is a reflection of the message here; it all goes back to the "self-serving institution" theme. Though I'm not sure - all of them seem quite at peace with it, that its their duty to take the fall, unlike the lower level pawns like Bodie and D'Angelo. The lower level pawns seem in it to make money or status or whatever for themselves usually though. Some of them even dream of being smart-rear end pawns making it to the other side of the board. Wee-Bey and Chris are all about protecting their bosses, and taking the fall is fully in line with that.
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Jul 16, 2013 00:27
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escape artist posted:You never noticed that? A lot of lines are repeated like that by different characters. "My name is my name", Marlo. "He knows my name, but my name is not my name", Vondas
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Jul 21, 2013 13:56
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I like the parallel between the unused police equipment nobody knows about just sitting around and the unused computer equipment nobody knows about just sitting around in the school in season 4.
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Jul 27, 2013 20:57
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Lugaloco posted:Fast train comin' String I think it was the slow train actually. Things were changing and it was obvious to everyone but Stringer, so he didn't get out of the way.
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Jul 27, 2013 22:00
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Ride of the Valkyries refers to Apocalypse Now, a movie set in another pointless war that couldn't be won.
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Aug 3, 2013 23:38
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awesmoe posted:I've spent like 15 minutes trying to write a reply because I just don't understand what you're saying. You think people don't actually desire the feeling they get from taking drugs? Not as a tool for self medication, but as a goal in and of itself? I suggest reading about Rat Park and the subsequent works by Prof. Bruce K. Alexander. It turns out that when you put rats in a rat-paradise type of environment and make heroin freely available to them, they'll take some, every now and then, and never become addicts. If they are already addicts before going in, they quickly shrug it off and only take some every now and then. Put em in a skinner-box and they'll mash that button all day long. Addiction is caused by alienation, and guess what alienation is caused by. If you guessed "capitalism", you win, except, we all lose.
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Aug 5, 2013 15:09
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awesmoe posted:Any social interaction where a risk of rejection, real or perceived, exists? SubponticatePoster posted:Uh, I don't think you can blame addiction on capitalism. Pretty sure there are people who live in communist/socialist countries who are addicts. I was being really short and working from memory, so I got my terms mixed up. Prof. Alexander posits that addiction (of any kind, including the ones we as a society encourage, like money or power or work) is caused by dislocation. He further posits that the dislocation currently most prevalent and thus causing most addiction worldwide is caused by the form which modern globalization has taken. Again, I'm summarizing extremely here. This webpage goes into more depth, and I can really recommend his book, as I found it made a very compelling case. quote:today’s flood of addiction is occurring because our hyperindividualistic, hypercompetitive, frantic, crisis-ridden society makes most people feel social and culturally isolated. Chronic isolation causes people to look for relief. They find temporary relief in addiction to drugs or any of a thousand other habits and pursuits because addiction allows them to escape from their feelings, to deaden their senses, and to experience an addictive lifestyle as a substitute for a full life.
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Aug 6, 2013 22:42
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cletepurcel posted:What he basically meant is that too many people watch the show superficially and don't look at the deeper themes and messages enough. I have to agree - I think those are what separates it from the other great dramas of this golden age. Season 2 is probably the most depressing season when you think about it. It'd be easy to say season 4 is. I mean, it's about kids and they are the future and that future gets corrupted at a very, very, young age in a very, very thorough way and it's awful. The whole series is about how this happens and why. Season 2 though, is the real gut punch, because it shows that the mechanism by which all this horribleness could be done away with is broken down and being dismantled further with no real hope of recovery. It's about the engine which could legitimately solve all the issues, not just sweep em under the carpet like Hamsterdam or what-have-you, and the state it is in. They didn't just used to build stuff, they used to build a community. A society.
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Aug 19, 2013 23:11
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the black husserl posted:You have to understand the context of these comments: Simon was angry at people who talked on and on about how badass Omar was without paying any attention at all to the social message he was actually trying to get across. I heard him give a live talk and you could tell that he was depressed and defeated about the failure of the Wire. Thats right, he considers it a failure in certain ways because he wanted to get people talking about social issues in America, to write a big story that exposes the rot at the heart of its institutions - and instead he created "the best TV show of all time". Can you imagine how nightmarish it must be for the goddamn President to say he loved your show - right before becoming the face of all that it was designed to attack? I think he realizes how impotent he really is, and that has informed a lot of his post-Wire attitude. Obama said Omar was his favorite character because he was the biggest badass...
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Aug 30, 2013 14:36
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Ainsley McTree posted:It strikes me as pretty irresponsible, in that once the perps find out about it (reading the warrant after they've been arrested or whatever) it would launch a snitch-hunt that may well get someone in a lot of trouble who had nothing to do with it (see: Michael in season 5). What gives you any indication whatsoever that the police would give a gently caress about this when doing so would help their clearance rate and other stats games?
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Sep 18, 2013 20:15
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Slo-Tek posted:Perfectly typical, like more often than not. It is how the FBI operates, it is a special kind of illegal to make a false statement to the FBI, and it is illegal to record their interview, so it is their word, backed up by what they wrote down. If what they wrote down is different than your recollection 6-8 months 2-3 years down the road? Well, looks like you just lied to the feds, 10 years away from your wife and kids...unless we can come to an arrangement. And, of course, once you do this little thing, then they own you, and will work you till you get caught and killed, not like they are going to let go of that little handle on you. Another good reason why the only words you say to a law enforcement officer of any kind are "I want my lawyer, now".
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Sep 19, 2013 17:08
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Yorkshire Tea posted:Eventually he's forced to game the police stats but in all honesty, if it's that to get rid of a Republican governor who wanted to bend him over, then I'd take that deal every single time. Gotta go with that lesser evil every time and so the system perpetuates itself and nothing ever changes. Also, while it's true he didn't cause the school budget crisis, the way he handles it is putting himself over doing the right thing.
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Oct 10, 2013 14:20
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Jerusalem posted:Which of Carcetti's options were truly better - turning down the money and retaining City control of the school system or taking the money and giving the State more control and damaging the union? He had a third option: increase property taxes. Political suicide, but the right thing to do.
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Oct 13, 2013 15:00
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Just going to post this now so I don't forget about it once the episode this is relevant to comes around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsIpQ7YguGE "Deserve got nothing to do with it"
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Oct 16, 2013 20:43
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Tha Duke posted:^^^^ I'm wondering why you think this? I don't necessarily agree with his points, but it is pretty clear to me he isn't making them because he believed women and minorities are inferior. He believed equal pay hurt women because it took away bargaining power and added a cost to sexist or racist hiring practices. Given his politics, I think it's not a stretch to claim he did believe women and minorities are inferior and that's how he got to his points in the first place. I mean, this is the guy who praised the gently caress out of Pinochet, unsurprisingly, given how he pretty much designed his economic policies.
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Oct 18, 2013 20:06
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Vogler posted:I would say that Marlo made no mistakes, at least not in the way that Avon or Stringer made mistakes. What Marlo wanted was unsustainable, and he knew that it was. Which is interesting given Marlo as a metaphor for capitalism.
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Oct 28, 2013 12:45
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Boywhiz88 posted:McNulty is obsessed with his ego but at least his pursuit is admirable and he's attempting to bring BIG cases through hard work. To a limit. McNulty is more interested in outsmarting a high level yet local criminal than he is in bringing in the really big cases.
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Nov 11, 2013 00:31
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dwazegek posted:About the headshot, from what I understand, the idea is that, by taking money from someone and then later paying it back, you essentially have an outstanding loan, which must be declared on a credit application. I can understand why this would be illegal, but the punishment seems completely over the top given the actual money involved. 30 years over $80,000 is incredibly excessive, but, from what I can tell, you can face similar sentences for far, far less money. American law is such a vast clusterfuck that basically everyone has something going on that could send them to prison at all times. It's really convenient to have laws like this that don't regularly get enforced because nobody investigates for them at all, but then can put someone away for basically life whenever it comes in handy. David Simon wrote a little more on the Head Shot here: http://davidsimon.com/kwame-brown-another-federal-case-another-head-shot/ Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 15:51 on Nov 29, 2013 |
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Nov 29, 2013 15:49
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Note also that Ed Norris was charged with a Head Shot plus two other charges of corruption and tax fraud. He plead guilty to the corruption and tax fraud and took 6 months in prison, presumably to get out of the Head Shot. The Head Shot was over $9,000.
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Nov 29, 2013 15:58
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dwazegek posted:If your parents give you $5000 when you're in the process of buying a house, you're fine, right?. But if they loan it to you ("just pay us whenever you have the money"), you're screwed. Based on what I read the moment you pay the money back you create insurmountable evidence that you are guilty of the Head Shot and that means you are proper hosed. If it was a gift then someone is still probably on the hook for some kind of tax liability but that's way less of an issue. The statute of limitations appears to be 10 years so I guess theoretically if you pay it back to them more than 10 years later you might be alright. Alternatively try to make the paper trail really hard to follow, like paying a holiday for them or something.
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Nov 29, 2013 18:53
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If Marlo and Carcetti are parallels, then who is the Greek, the man above it all who stays the King no matter what, in Carcetti's world? I'd say some fatcat capitalist who buys politicians, but I can't quite recall one on the show. Krawczyk is a little too smalltime for this, especially what with his run-in with Omar and Brother Mouzone, but I don't recall us seeing anyone bigger.
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Nov 30, 2013 14:02
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It's interesting how "the King" in the world of the street and the drug trade then is an individual, but so far all "the King"'s we can come up with in the world of politics are institutions.
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Nov 30, 2013 19:56
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Daniels. Daniels gets pushed by those around him to make rank, but he doesn't care for it. Instead he (eventually) gets all behind bringing in good cases, doing good work. When he starts moving up the chain he does so only because he truly believes it'll lead to poo poo getting done right, because he feels like he has to. He's not particularly skilled at politicking, even though he eventually ends up at the top. He's loyal and takes care of his own. Eventually though, his past catches up to him and he's out. While it's likely that Slim will last for a while, does anyone doubt that eventually he too has a real good chance of ending up dead or in prison? At best he might get out the game in a way like Marlo was offered, the difference being, Slim would take it and get out. Maybe he's even more like Daniels in that way, in the end he might well manage to get out the game alive and doing quite well personally. Other parallels, Daniels complaining about not getting any good police for his unit, Slim complaining he no longer has muscle worth a drat.
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Dec 3, 2013 02:02
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