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Son Conan posted:Ohboyohboyohboyohboy! Haha, that would be perfect. Hell, William S. Baring-Gould(and somebody else whose named I cannot recall) theorized that Nero Wolfe was Sherlock Holmes' son with Irene Adler. Could Fatogami be Togami's son with...I don't know, who's the DR equivalent of Irene Adler? It's sure as hell not Fukawa. ...Wow. Page three and I feel we already went past the deep end with theories.
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Dec 11, 2012 16:51
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Frostyyy posted:Personally I think the most likely explanation is that he's part of the large Togami family. Given that Byakuya's backstory was all about his family, I don't think it's much of a stretch to think his relatives could show up. If he is Togami's relative, then he has to die before the game ends because in DR1 Monobear mentioned all of Togami's relatives were dead. So for that to be true and for Fatogami still be Togami's relative, this game needs to be happening simultaneously to DR1 and he needs to die before the game ends. If he is Togami himself, then I have to wonder how the hell you can get so fat in a post-apocalyptic world. Like, that takes a certain type of skill.
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Dec 11, 2012 18:10
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On topic of the character designs, I think the designs are pretty funny too, but past the initial "Hah that's great" the whole thing has kind of got me worried about how the characterization will be handled. Yes, I know, we haven't even gotten characters to introduce themselves and all that. But what I mean is that, this kind of thing has happened to a lot of other series and I'm afraid it's gonna happen here too. For example, Valkyria Chronicles had some pretty good, believable characters that had to deal with this insane setting they had build up. And then the sequel came and all characters felt like this cartoonish mess of personality traits that barely felt like human beings. Then there's stuff like 999 and its sequel, which had the same problem(but to a much lesser degree unless stuff gets more insane by the end of the game - didn't finish it yet). There's the Devil Summoner series too, which is more debatable I guess. And FF-X to X-2. I'm probably just being paranoid here and worrying about nothing, but the character designs sort of set off a warning flag in me because so far every time the character designs feel wackier in the sequel the characterization is also a bit worse. Then again Valkyria Chronicles 2 also had a soldier inexplicably themed after Elvis which completely invalidates my point about bad characters.
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Dec 12, 2012 02:26
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KamikazePotato posted:Add Devil Survivor 1->Devil Survivor 2 to this list. And I agree with this sentiment. I'm not a fan of some of these designs when compared to the original game. They aren't bad, just a little too out there. Oops, that just made me realize I meant Devil Survivor, not Summoner. Haven't played Summoner. Got the two titles mixed up somehow, my bad. It's not even that I don't like the designs, I honestly do. But they just seem like...I don't know, maybe I just have weird taste in character designs. They looked funny at first but after reading the update a bit later and looking at them, they felt a bit weird you know? No point in worrying over stuff like that though, so I'm just gonna wait and see how the game develops. idonotlikepeas posted:Stout actually teased this a couple of times, I believe. I mean, Wolfe is basically American Mycroft Holmes, after all. Fatogami might well follow in the proud tradition of gluttonous antisocial detectives. The only tease that comes to mind was that Holmes painting. Were there others? It's been a while since I read Stout's stuff, I can't remember. Also, on topic of mystery writers and to bring this back to Dangan Ronpa for a bit--I remember that there were a few references here and there about some other mystery writers in the first game, like Kirigiri mentioning Ellery Queen, who's apparently really big in Japan. I wonder if DR's creators ever made a statement about their influences. I mean if I recall correctly the writer wrote some Japan-only Detective Conan games, so he probably was influenced by that series one way or another, but I wonder what his other influences were. That kind of thing can be pretty interesting when dealing with plot heavy games. slowbeef posted:I'm asking that you refrain from anything but SHSL-level posts, and at least check the last couple of pages to make sure you're not repeating what someone else has said. We don't want the thread to get the reputation that it's only worth it to read the OP's posts this early on. That's pretty fair. It's easy to get a bit caught up in the whole "Sequel yeah!" excitement, which I admittedly still am and I probably made a dumb post or four here. It's probably for the best to just tone down on posting for now because eleven/twelve pages of the same thing can start to feel like grinding for items in Nier. Wow that was the worst metaphor I've ever made.
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Dec 12, 2012 04:10
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BFC posted:That is totally Naegi and Togami infiltrating another attempt by someone to make Despair rule over Hope. I thought of that, but if that were the case then why would Togami use his real name and Naegi use a sorta-anagram of his?
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Dec 12, 2012 16:35
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Spatula City posted:I think the designers have to be aware that any sane mystery afficianado would probably peg her as a likely murderer based on how mentally unstable she appears to be, and because it goes with Dangan Ronpa's trend of fake-outs and defiance of expectations. It depends on what kind of mystery aficionado you are thinking of. In Golden Age mysteries(Christie, Carr, etc) the murderer was almost never the mentally unstable one because that was just flat out not a plausible culprit most of the times. That type of mystery usually had extremely complicated murders, so the most common type of murderer was a calculating narcissist who masqueraded as something else during the rest of the book to keep it different enough. Generally, mental instability was an argument against somebody being the culprit, like for example a certain John Dickson Carr novel I'm not gonna name to avoid spoilers. So I'm not sure about what you are saying here. Modern Japanese Golden Age style'd mysteries are a bit harder to talk about because I got very very limited exposure to them, but to my understanding(and somebody correct me if I'm wrong) they aren't overly fond of insane culprits either. There's the horror/mystery mix in Japan that likes to focus more on motive and story than in what trick was used to murder people. Dangan Ronpa really doesn't seem like that type. I can't know for sure what type Dangan Ronpa was, but considering how Kirigiri quoted Ellery Queen(who is still popular in Japan for reasons I don't fully understand even if I know the history involved) I think the designers are more inclined to assume Golden Age/New Wave Japan Mystery or whatever they are called predictions as opposed to anything else. That's my long-winded way of saying "I don't think there's nothing in her design that can make us think she is a killer." I mean don't get me wrong, maybe there's some Japanese mystery stuff I'm not aware of(which is fairly possible) but I don't think that's a fair conclusion to make at this point. Hell, I don't think any conclusion about the characters is fair at this point. The most I can say is that the nurse annoys the living hell out of me. I mean, it's cool to talk about how likable characters are coming off as but talking about how likely they are to commit murder is a bit pointless. Like, when you start to think that somebody is going to commit murder before the idea of murder even occurs to them, that's just going to make actual theorizing a living hell later because you'll be trying to fit your theories together with your knee jerk reactions based on design and a short conversation.
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Dec 19, 2012 02:18
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Alien Arcana posted:The reason Golden Age mystery novels generally avoid madman-killers is because it violates a major rule of mystery fiction: no cop-outs. The answer to "Why did you do it?" cannot be Time Cube. It's like using untraceable poisons or a secret-twin alibi - it ruins the integrity of the mystery. I wouldn't go that far. Some of those mysteries had motives that were completely and absolutely pulled out of nowhere because the authors didn't care about them. Ellery Queen did this...more than once, but the specific example I'm referring to is one of his earliest novels(again, vague because of spoilers) where the motive is tacked on after the criminal is discovered and they might as well say "And he did it because once night in France, he watched a group of Irish tap dancers and interpreted the sound as morse code telling him to murder somebody in this very specific manner." JDC himself said he didn't really care about the criminal's motivations to commit murder and preferred to focus on the method. I think a ridiculous motive to commit murder isn't against the spirit of the game, so to speak, in the same way untraceable poisons and secret twins. The latter ruins the mystery, while the former just sort of ruins the plot. I mean let's look at DR1 and the Mondo murder--I know, I know. Naegi and co arrived at the correct culprit without so much as a hint of a motive. We only heard his motive after the fact. If Mondo came out and said he murdered Chihiro because they went to work out and Chiriro turned out to be one of those douchebags who puts his towel over the machine next to him for no discernible reason, it wouldn't contradict absolutely anything we were told before. What I mean is, for old-time mysteries and mysteries with similar structure, motive isn't really the focus, it's more about who/how. And Dangan Ronpa is definitely like that, as evidenced by the Mondo thing. That doesn't mean the game won't touch in motive because hey, motive is a valid clue/red herring, but at the very least the game has made clear that it's a-okay with ignoring motive up until the criminal confesses.
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Dec 19, 2012 04:26
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orenronen posted:I think Dangan Ronpa is very much interested in the psychological processes behind murders. It's just that they're sometimes not part of the mystery-puzzle aspect of the story. I'd agree with that for the most part. Mondo's motive in case 2 wasn't at all included in the mystery-puzzle aspect but the game clearly cared about it and made it make sense from a story-perspective as well. I mean, it's probably not the best idea to look for motive and use it as evidence to solve a murder(unless DR2 goes in a different direction with that and I end up looking silly) but the motive is still going to end up pretty fun in general. The only part from last game that would make me go "Ehhh I don't know about that" is case 3, since(at least for me) it didn't really feel like the game was trying to explore the psychological process behind that particular murder at all. But for the most part, yeah, I'd agree. Arbitrary Coin posted:Oh yeah, I'm not I'm gonna cut myself short to avoid derailing the thread past the "how this relates to DR" phase, but the answer is "more or less" because even if the "Why would you kill?" doesn't really matter, the psychological "What the hell makes somebody commit murder in this ridiculously specific manner" came up pretty often in that specific kind of mystery. Hopeford fucked around with this message at 06:10 on Dec 19, 2012 |
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Dec 19, 2012 06:07
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enough to think that; I thought the post was referring to a specific type of mysteries in general
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That was a really nice podcast. I was always pretty curious about how orenronen saw the Junko thing, because even though he did say he was more or less cool with it during the first thread, you can't really tell tone from text at times so I wasn't sure if it was like "Yeah sure, let's just not get into that" or something. I mean, I say that because I joked about it once or twice and didn't really see the harm in it - then I got spoiled on the whole Junko thing and it was like "Christ I feel terrible for doing that now." The translation chat was pretty interesting too, especially in regards to how characters change personality a bit when a game is localized. Orenronen mentioned Phoenix Wright and I'm gonna run with that as an example because it's pretty much the only game I can think of that relates to the point I'm trying to make. I mean, I have no idea how much of Phoenix's personality was changed because I barely know any Japanese and that's the funny thing. If somebody asks me what I think of Phoenix Wright as a character I would say I liked him based on things that maybe weren't even in the original. Hell, from what I saw Orenronen post in HelloWinter's Phoenix Wright LP I think that even if the translation made all of Phoenix's lines sound very natural in English but didn't change his personality to go along with the change, I just wouldn't like him as much as I do now. Which is crazy when you think about it. I mean I can imagine myself feeling differently about Phoenix's personality if I had played the Japanese version(and actually understood Japanese) because having a character I know behave differently could just feel a bit...off, which is what I gather those people from tumblr you guys mentioned in the podcast are probably feeling. It's a tricky thing because, again, I think that some localization work, even if it changes the character slightly, is necessary to make a game accessible for a certain audience. For example, depending on how shy/rude a character is, that might seem interesting to one culture and extremely annoying to another. To make the game enjoyable to someone of a different culture, you'd have to tone that down even if it meant changing the character's personality a bit. But at the same time it's probably hard for someone who saw the original version first to not feel like there's something wrong with those changes, because then it alienates them a bit. Personally, I'm in favor of heavy localization like in the Phoenix Wright games unless it's impossible to do that. But I can see why that's a bit of a touchy subject for some. The one thing I do disagree is that statement that the first DR game isn't good as a mystery game. I don't know, I mean I had my issues with one or two parts of it, but I think I really enjoyed it for what it was. Chapter 4 specially was pretty well designed in that regard, I think. Glad to know the mysteries in DR2 are even better though. Speaking of mysteries, that ps1 game that was mentioned in the podcast, is it meant to be some sort of Murder on the Orient Express parody or is the title just a coincidence? pandaK posted:You can always just use a youtube to mp3 converter for the time being like this one: http://www.youtube-mp3.org/ I don't know if it's just my computer and/or internet, but youtube-to-mp3 converters are always really slow over here when dealing with long videos like that and they seem to just sort of stop converting videos and crash relatively often. So what I'd recommend doing if you have problem with that is to just grab the entire video as an mp4 file with some firefox script(there are tons of those) and then convert it to mp3, which is much faster. Hopeford fucked around with this message at 04:25 on Dec 25, 2012 |
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Dec 25, 2012 03:19
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Hanamura kind of reminds me of that guy that's present in nearly every group in history that tries to start a fight and goes "BRO HOLD ME BACK" because he's actually afraid of fighting and eventually ends up getting his rear end kicked. I think he's just a miniature frat boy. He's gonna be like, trying to bump into people to start fights but he's only gonna be able to bump into their knees or something. He's not shocking me as much as Yamada because hey, I think everybody knows or has heard of at least one guy who acts like that. Yamada was more out there, at least in the west. Gonna hold on calling him an actual creep until we talk to him more to see how serious he is, 'is what I'm getting at.SingerOfW posted:- I don't agree that the SHSL skills are just "there" in the first game. One way or another, each one of them did matter in some way, even if it's just Ishimaru being strict enough about the rules to challenge Mondo over it, which leads to their friendship and Ishimaru's breakdown. I suppose Celes and Hagakure's skills are close to being irrelevant, but the former made a huge gamble by having an accomplice, while the latter did make some accurate predictions. Did Asahina's skill matter though? That's the one skill that comes to mind as being pretty useless in both character and plot last game. She could have been Super High School Level Pokemon Trainer and I don't think much would have changed.
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Dec 26, 2012 20:05
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DaveWoo posted:So Nagito knows exactly who Togami is, and is treating him as though he's just another member of the class? That's... interesting. That's more than interesting, that's contradictory. Think back about what Nagito said earlier - he looked up his classmates on the web. He also said that there was only one High School Level Luck dude per year. Everyone in the thread more or less agreed that this meant they were either seniors or juniors to DR1's class. What I'm getting at is, Nagito can't have been on the same year as Togami, but he says that they were on the same year as evidenced by saying that he looked up info on his classmates on the internet. Those two statements don't really match up well, so we definitely need an explanation for that. I mean maybe you can solve that contradiction by saying that Togami was held back a year for some reason, but that's probably the kind of thing either Nagito or Naegi would have mentioned(in case of prequel stuff).
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Dec 29, 2012 19:55
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SingerOfW posted:Could it be that they just got acquainted at the beach while Hajime was out cold? Hm, that's possible, but Togami doesn't seem particularly talkative. Plus Nagito seems to know an awful lot about him having earned money on his own and all - that's generally the kind of thing that doesn't come up in a conversation when you are talking to someone who seems keen on shutting you up. "Go away. By the way I've earned a fortune on my own outside of inheriting my family's already ridiculous fortune." Then again, if Nagito is Naegi, we can throw a lot of what he's saying right out of the window. It would explain why he knows who Togami is, and the earlier theory someone made about Naegi and Togami infiltrating games to presumably go Battle Royale 2 on everybody would explain why Nagito is trying to make it look like Togami is their classmate. Not that I'm saying we should just latch on to that theory(specially since I don't think our current evidence points to Nagito being Naegi) but it's something to keep in mind. What I'm getting at is, the information Nagito is giving us seems pretty weird. We can probably form a decent theory on Togami once we have a better idea on what Nagito's game is.
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Dec 29, 2012 20:11
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SectumSempra posted:The cross-dressing thing feels obvious (or is being heavily hinted at as a red herring) because This is just my opinion and I'm probably just weird about this so feel free to ignore what I'm gonna say. But most of that stuff is basically just a guess. Like most speculation up to this point seems to be based on trying to predict the plot by just calling out random plot twists and hoping it's right somehow. I mean, this isn't like the Chihiro case where there was some fairly good evidence for that to be the case with the gender assigned rooms, the murder location and all that. Now people are just sort of saying it's obvious based on what comes down to a gut response to it. The stuff in the post I quoted doesn't really prove or even(in my opinion) make it more likely for that to be the case. It's just a random shot in the dark with justifications that don't really make the theory any more likely. I liked the speculation for the last game a lot because as much as we acted like silly idiots and got stuff wrong all the time, it was all based on stuff that actually happened in the game. Now it sort of feels like the thread is just trying to predict every possible twist with no actual basis and that's pretty boring. I mean, say that those shots in the dark turn out to be correct. Even then, what's the point in 'calling' something happening if you just get it right out of dumb luck as opposed to connecting the dots here and there? Maybe it's just me, but I don't see much point in that. Theories like that just sort of seem to me like going "Yeah I have no idea how character X is the culprit, but he seems suspicious so I think he is the culprit" and then fist pumping the air later if that turns out to be right even though you never said anything in the first place. I'm not a fan of that kind of speculation, 'is what I'm getting at. I don't know if it's just me or whatever, but yeah. a spooky ghost posted:I wonder why he is even at Hope's Peak Academy in the first place. Acceptance/selection hasn't been shown to equate to attendance; I don't think we've learned that you can't opt out. Is the name really so ubiquitous that someone like Kuzuryuu, who clearly has his own stuff going out and probably don't care much about furthering his education, would bother going? Would he really be interested in the the benefits of being a Hope's Peak graduate? I see it as going to acting school; it's not so much what you learn there as the connections you make. If you are going to be a gangster in the future you might as well look for some people that could be useful to you in the future, and that academy seems like a really good place to start looking.
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Jan 3, 2013 22:05
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Cardiovorax posted:Disregarding the VR thing, if that sort of thing bothers you, maybe reading a murder mystery LP just isn't the best of ideas. Guessing and speculating is kind of the whole appeal. I think there is a difference between blind guessing and trying to 'solve' the game though. To me the appeal of a murder mystery LP is trying to solve the mystery the game is presenting based on evidence we have. There's a lot of discussion that can be made about how to interpret a certain piece of evidence or things like that and that's pretty fun. I frankly don't see the appeal in just blindly guessing things because then there isn't really much to discuss.
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Jan 3, 2013 22:36
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I gotta say, Usami/Monami, I may have hated your Barney dialogue to the point where I didn't even notice your name wasn't Monami when the game started, but your theme song shall be missed. slowbeef posted:The game's obviously written with some misdirection and possible not-misdirection, so playing the meta game of trying to figure out their intentions given things like character art for an introduction reel (i.e. poo poo that's not presented in the game world itself) probably can't go very far. Yeah, this can't be stated enough. It's a bad idea to try to meta-read mysteries in general because since The Mysterious Affair at Styles(okay maybe a bit before that) authors have had this game of double-bluff going on where trying to reason what they are going for thematically as opposed to dealing with the evidence just gets you nowhere. And because this game is a sequel, it's especially bad to try to meta it because the author has a much better idea of what you are expecting than he had in the first game. I think it was Freeman(or Carr. Or Carr quoting Freeman. I don't remember to be honest.) that said something along the lines of not even needing to mislead the reader because the reader will mislead himself so long as you give the evidence proper atmosphere. And that's the thing with trying to meta-read a mystery story, if you do that you are basically going to mislead yourself without the author even having to try. All the writers have done so far is hang a heavy atmosphere around a clue and basically invited the player to make a ton of assumptions about it. If you want to know what's actually going on, it's a bad idea to actually respond to that invitation and form a theory around it. I mean I'm not saying that the stuff like Togami, Monobear and all that are just red herrings. That's a bit beyond what a red herring is allowed to be, that would be just bad writing. What I mean is, it's a bad idea to try to meta-reason around that or form a theory early on because the writer totally wants you to do that. I know this is going to sound hypocritical but let's assume you are this game's writer. Your goal is to keep your players guessing about the nature of the game's plot up until the very end of the game. With that in mind, would you really make it so that the player can actually infer enough stuff about your early setups that he can figure out endgame stuff before the first murder even happens? Of course not. So the stuff we have now is just meant to get us on the wrong track. I'm not saying it's all a red herring, just that it's not going to be useful for us at least for now. So it's useless to try to meta-reason around it because the idea of meta-reasoning implies that either the writer would be okay with letting the player anticipate his plot that quickly or be wholly incompetent. From DR1, we know he's not incompetent so... What I'm trying to say is, the writer's goal is to trick the player and he's inviting meta-reasoning based on stuff like Togami and all that. So taking him up on his offer to meta-read stuff when his goal is to not let the player know what's going on until the very end is a bad idea, 'is what I'm getting at.
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Jan 9, 2013 23:49
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One thing to keep in mind here is that there's a bit of a contradiction here. Togami doesn't seem to know about Monobear, which would indicate that--assuming this is the same Togami--his memories from DR1 were erased. But he's shown to be acting like post-DR1 Togami personality wise and we know(from Chihiro, Mondo and others) that having your memories erased also erases your character development. That's pretty strange. Plus another thing to keep in mind that was brought up a while ago is the contradiction of Togami being those people's classmates despite being from DR1's class. Those contradictions about Togami are piling up, but I'll hold off on offering any explanations because anything a this point would be a wild guess. Which is my way of saying "I got a theory but I'm probably wrong and I hate being wrong so I'll shut up until I work around the holes in it." Plus when it's this early in the game I think it's better to list all facts and contradictions without offering any attempts at explaining them. Once we have enough contradictions and evidence, we can try to put them together. But for now the best thing is just to list up all the "odd" things we notice until we can draw up a connection between them. slowbeef posted:Okay, now I feel like there's a viable theory there. If Kuzuryuu was a woman pretending to be a man, it makes perfect sense that the characters are remarking on her lack of facial hair or stubble, hence Babyface. In fact, while there are other reasons for a lack of facial hair, that does seem to be the most likely theory. Coupled with the swimming thing? Yeah, maybe that is really it. I don't think the swimming thing can be added as an argument. I mean yeah, if he were a woman he wouldn't have gone swimming because it would blow his disguise. But that doesn't mean that because he didn't go swimming he has to be a woman. Let's look at it another way. Let's suppose, for the sake of the argument, that he's not crossdressing. Would he have gone swimming with them? I'd say no, because he's acting like he thinks everyone is beneath him. It would be like Togami taking part in group activities in DR1. It just wouldn't fit. So if it's something he would do regardless of whether he's a man or a woman, I don't think it's a particularly good idea to count that as something that adds on to evidence. As for the babyface thing, I think I'm missing something. Did they ever specifically bring up facial hair? I've heard people throw around "baby face" just to refer to somebody who looks way too young. Plus I think the game wants us to look more at the effect than the cause here. Like, there could be a thousand reasons why he has a baby face, but the important thing is that he's probably overcompensating for it(hence him being an rear end). I say he's overcompensating because he clearly hates being reminded of his face. Plus if we don't count the swimming as additional evidence, then there's really not much to make that theory more plausible than anything else. Here's an argument against him being a woman in disguise: Supposedly, calling him baby-face makes him angry enough to use his associates to deal with people who call him that. If he were a woman, I imagine he wouldn't want to draw attention to how much he hates the comparison. It seems like a really, really ineffective way of hiding a secret.
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Jan 30, 2013 20:34
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Kytrarewn posted:I think that's a fairly weak argument. You're assuming logical thought in the heat of a moment of rage by a fictional anime character in a Japanese video game, and that he can control his emotions to boot. It's not a moment of rage though, it's a frequent pattern according to Nagito unless I'm remembering his introduction wrong. If it was just one moment, sure. But if it's something he does on a regular basis, that just seems a strange habit to keep if you are trying to draw attention away from something.
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Jan 30, 2013 21:03
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Looks like the game is beginning to set up things that are going to be clues in the future. It's really nice that the game is not too blatant with that. Some games/books tend to be kind of annoying in that the sudden shift with the amount of details they show kind of takes you out of the story for a moment, but here I wouldn't be surprised if everything or nothing came into play. No point speculating on red-herring/not a red-herring for now, but I think it's as well to keep in mind the stuff Togami said about the stuff he's hoarding. Dias posted:Togami, don't be dumb, you can't eat churrasco with chopsticks. Not with that attitude you can't! Look at Togami - the man clearly has the attitude for it. He's stabbing meat with chopsticks. Yeah generally they don't serve an entire skewer either, they bring it to your table and cut you a slice of the size you want while other waiters go around with other types of meat and the process repeats itself until you feel like enough animals died today. I feel the need to stress that this my favorite food ever and I don't even care that "many types of meat" is cheating as far as favorite food goes.  Anybody who likes many types of meat should go to one of those restaurants at least once. They have tons of restaurants based around that type of food around North America too, just search for it under "Brazilian steakhouse" and you'll find one around your area. They are getting really popular, there are like 3 or four Brazilian steakhouses around Toronto so I imagine there must be more around the US. Oh and it's probably worth noting - don't bring a vegetarian friend there. It's not a good idea. At all. Unless you are trying to be a prick in which case it's brilliant. orenronen posted:Promotion stuff That's a really nice way of supporting the company. I already have an account and all so I'm not gonna enter the contest but I'm gonna buy a copy of the game anyway to support the spirit of the thing. I mean, reading the LP is really fun and they obviously made a great game so supporting the company sounds like a good idea even if I can barely understand basic Japanese without a dictionary.
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Feb 18, 2013 23:58
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I kind of liked Togami, but A MURDER! YES! Screw Togami, we got a murder and that's what matters. This is a pretty interesting murder so far. I think the most important thing to keep an eye on is whether the murder was premeditated or not. The circumstances kind of make it seem like it wasn't planned ahead of time what with the power outage and all. They couldn't really have known it was gonna happen, so they had to have planned on the fly. But deciding to murder someone on the fly like that plus getting a weapon despite Togami's best efforts seems unlikely. But if it was planned, then Nagito would be pretty suspicious considering how he's the one who was there ahead of time to clean up the place. C-Euro posted:Night-vision goggles? He was going to take someone out himself, that treacherous bastard. But that would mean that Togami, equipped with night vision goggles, somehow not only failed to kill his intended target(who couldn't see a drat thing at the time) but also got his weapon stolen by his intended victim and was killed by him. It doesn't sound very likely that Togami was out to kill anybody at all. MonsterEnvy posted:Not necessarily if the person who said "Oy, what are you doing?! Stop it!!" Was Togami it's likely he brought the night vision goggles to try and stop a murder attempt in the dark. Because if this is him he could clearly see. However from how this turned out he failed. That would require Togami being either insanely paranoid and just happening to have the right gadget to fight off this particular murder attempt or he saw it coming somehow. I think it's too early for a conclusion like that.
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Feb 20, 2013 20:30
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slowbeef posted:Even if he had stored them in the box, someone could've taken a pair prior to the party. Yeah, but the hard part wouldn't be getting the goggles so much as getting them to the party unnoticed. I know you just pointed out he said he'd only do it for dangerous items, but I can't really imagine him not confiscating them given how paranoid he acted up to that point. I mean, I can't imagine him checking everybody for items that could be used in a murder, finding night vision goggles and going "That seems safe enough." The only issue with that assumption is that it requires the killer to have gotten the goggles there before the party. And thanks to Rith's useful table of contents, I can actually source my arguments now! Nagito was in the lodge cleaning it up, so the killer couldn't have hid it very easily. It is true that Nagito left the lodge to get the carpet, but that's a very small timeframe to rig a power outage and hide the night vision goggles somewhere that Nagito wouldn't find while cleaning it up. In addition to that, the killer would have to know that Nagito was going to leave the lodge and for how long he'd be gone to do this, since this would be a premeditated crime. Another thing is that the killer would have to know that Togami was going to body search everybody once they got there. It's not impossible to assume the criminal was just as paranoid as Togami, but it's still a point against it and when you pile it up with everything else it just seems really hard that the killer managed to sneak those night vision goggles there. That would mean that either Nagito is the killer(since he would be the only one who could have reasonably used them) or that the glasses belonged to Togami. There's another possibility though. I'm not a huge fan of it, but it's possible that the night vision goggles came in after the bodychecks as opposed to before. For example, the gangster who refused to come to the party - supposing he entered the place after the body checks and stayed hidden somewhere(the bathroom?) he could easily have gotten them there.
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Feb 21, 2013 20:14
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RefinedUndefined posted:Perhaps the killer, after grabbing a pair of goggles and stashing them somewhere nearby, told Nagito about the carpet in the supermarket, thus creating an opportunity to find the goggles. Also, couldn't the killer have gotten the knife from the kitchen of the resturant in the hotel, seeing as there were no knives missing from the lodge's kitchen. Yeah, but that would make the murderer's identity incredibly obvious. I mean, it could happen, but it doesn't seem especially likely right now. Plus it's still just kind of bizarre to plan a murder around the assumption that Nagito would want to get the carpet all the way to the lodge. I'm not too concerned about how the criminal got the knife or whatever the murder weapon was, I was referring specifically to the night vision goggles. The way it stands, I'm more or less comfortable assuming that the goggles were brought by either Nagito or Togami. RefinedUndefined posted:Don't take this as fact, but when we met Nidai on the way to the hall before the meal, didn't he say something about the restroom being locked? If so, then can't we assume the door remained locked all this time? I'll be honest, I have no idea because we don't really know what the hell is up with that door. I can think of a few ways to work around that("Gangster dude is the one who locked it because he had the key somehow because he's whatever") but none of them have any logic behind it, so I'll just put that theory on the backburner for now. I mean it didn't look very likely to start with, but you know.
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Feb 21, 2013 20:49
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slowbeef posted:Someone stabbed Togami while standing up, and moved the body under the table. (No one heard the body drop? He's a big guy!) They did this without getting blood on themselves, or the floor. Huh, I hadn't noticed that nobody had heard his body drop, nice catch. The best explanation I can think of for people not hearing that is that his body didn't drop at all. If he was hiding under the table and then got stabbed, I think that would clear up the issues you mentioned. It would explain how the body got there without any apparent blood on the floor and why nobody heard his body drop. If he was already hiding under the table to start with, it might also be possible that the criminal only got his hand/sleeve covered in blood if he was lucky enough with the angle of the stabbing and then just cleaned that off with a napkin or something. It wouldn't be as much blood as he would have gotten on him if Togami was stabbed while standing in front of him, at least. This scenario would be something like: - Lights go out. - Togami hides under the table for some reason. - Killer goes under the table to kill Togami. Assuming the killer was the one with the night vision goggles, it would be easy to explain why Togami didn't fight back(angle/couldn't see) but there would still be a weird question kind of hanging in the air. I think that scenario would explain a lot, but if it were true, why would the night-vision-goggles wearing criminal go for Togami, who apparently hid under a table? It sounds like a weird victim choice.
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Feb 21, 2013 21:21
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One thing that's been bothering me - supposing the killer had some sort of extremely well hidden place to keep his night vision goggles in that he could get them in the dark despite not seeing a thing...why did he not put them back there? It would be one less piece of evidence to explain how he killed Togami. If Togami's the one who had the goggles though, that would explain why he never put them away. Being kind of dead and all.slowbeef posted:One last thing. Note that Togami's wound seems to be under his body. I didn't love the "stabbed from under the floor" theory, but unless the killer rolled him over or something, it seems like that's the only way? Not the only way, but yeah it's the most probable one. He could also have been crawling on the floor and looking up when the night-vision murderer stabbed him in the chest. But it's kind of a weird angle to imagine. If he was stabbed from under the floor, that would account for all contradictions save for one. How would the murderer know where Togami was? If the attack came from under, the goggles definitely didn't belong to the killer.
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Feb 21, 2013 22:10
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Slightly late to the "I got spoiled!" discussion but I got a slightly funny story about that. A somewhat dickish friend and I used to pass notes in the "dancing men" code from Sherlock back in high school because we were some twisted version of hipsters, and he went "Hey bet you don't remember the code by heart anymore." He sent me a link to a website to refresh my memory, I read it/memorized it and went "Test me." He did. Halfway through the message, I realized it was a coded DR2 spoiler he had made it just to be a dick and immediately stopped decoding it. For the rest of the day he tried to get me to read it in...admittedly increasingly creative ways until I decoded it out of reflex. The spoiler I was so terrified of? Yeah, it translated to this: quote:Fun twist, Nagito is actually Irish and the same person as as I'm just loving with you I haven't played DR2 yet. You couldn't stop yourself from mentally translating this could you This is the code if anybody's really, really bored. That was far funnier to me than it had any right to. I'm still spoiler free for the game though!
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Feb 25, 2013 06:07
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After a rather lengthy process furtherly complicated by me being an idiot, I managed to buy DR2 and tried to follow it with the LP and a dictionary. I gotta say, if you are at all interested in learning Japanese, mildly obsessive about the game and suffer from a great deal of having nothing better to do this is actually a pretty fun way to improve your Japanese knowledge from being only marginally longer than Schwarzenegger's acting range to something around the amount of sense I'm making right now - which isn't a lot, but it's better than nothing and I'm having fun. I'm gonna pretend that somehow ties up my point nicely and end by saying it's a pretty fun thing to do and it supports the creators of this game, so I'd recommend for people to do it. Not gonna theorize too much on specifics about the murder for a while because I was out of the country for the last few days and until I catch up on theories anything specific I say was probably already discussed to death. Also, I know this is just meaningless praise at this point and it was probably repeated to death already, but the new trial subtitle videos are really great to watch. I used to kind of read the update then skip around the video during the last LP, so this is a really noticeable(and fun) improvement. thelarue posted:I'm sticking by my theory that Nagito was luring someone else to murder for him. Maybe to do with the clock in the square or cause he's sick in the head. He's too nice for his own good... I'm admittedly behind on things and incredibly jet-lagged so I may have missed something while speed-reading my way through the updates, but I'm drawing a complete blank here. What does the clock in the square have to do with Nagito luring someone to murder for him and where is there suggestion of him being sick in the head? And if he's sick in the head and trying to get someone to murder for him, how is he nice? I'm kind of confused here. Sorry if this was suggested before(still skimming the thread to catch up) and this is probably just me being influenced by a book I just read, but what if Togami was planning to fake his death to "train" people in solving murder mysteries for the future and then got murdered for real? It would explain how the killer knew where Togami would be(in addition to the tape thing I mean), since a fake death would require an accomplice who could pretend to check on the body and make sure he's dead. Hopeford fucked around with this message at 18:42 on Mar 19, 2013 |
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Mar 19, 2013 18:39
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On the motive thing--I think it's fine if we don't know why someone wanted to kill. Sometimes in mysteries the motive is kept hidden until the very end. In this game motive is even less important because killing means you get away from the god forsaken place. "Why murder him?" is a pretty easy question to answer for the most part. If the game were to say "I pretended to be nice but I want to get out!" we couldn't really fault it, since it's reasonable all things considered. "Why murder him in this particularly contrived manner?" is more important and kind of hard to answer. The best I can come up with is "Someone tried to murder during that thing, Togami stopped him with night vision goggles, something something, third party kills by accident/thrill of the moment with no pre-planning." And unless we can figure out what "something something" means it gets kind of hard to make a definitive theory on it.thelarue posted:Sorry for the mix-up. I am talking about the clock since we don't know what it does (right? Or did I dyslexic myself again) so I wonder if Nagito knows what it means and why its counting. I am saying Nagito is too nice to imply that its an act. Most sociopaths (or was it psychopaths?) are very charming and are good at misleading people. I see, got it. I don't agree with that because of what Tomn pointed out, but thanks for the explanation! Falls Down Stairs posted:It's come up briefly somewhere, but no one's made a super strong case for it. At a glance the problem with the theory in the form you presented it is that it would require Togami's collaborator be M.I.A. at the time of the murder, yet he decided to go through with their plan anyways; you might be able to conjecture a why, but then you'd start getting Occam's Razor problems. Plus, the threatening letter found among his possessions just gets weirder and harder to account for in that case. The theory does have the rare advantage of giving the murderer a way to learn that someone would be under the table, though, which I think is the big question mark lingering over this whole deal. I don't think him being missing would be necessarily against the plan - if Togami planned on a fake mystery, he'd need his accomplice(the fake killer) to have been away at the right time. The threatening letter would make sense if he wrote it himself for people to find it while investigating his "murder." The biggest issue I have with it is really that there's no strong evidence pointing toward it. I mean, I can easily come up with a scenario that doesn't contradict anything and explains everything...except for why that scenario is more likely than any other insane and not foreshadowed scenario. Which is sort of important. I don't think I can make a serious case for the theory, unfortunately.
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Mar 19, 2013 19:53
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Well, I played the game up until where the LP was and went just a bit past it. And by "a bit" I mean I continued a bit past this update and kind of finished the trial. Yeah, I'm gonna try not to do that anymore, I'm gonna miss the speculation. I think somebody(Slowbeef?) mentioned this in the last thread about the first game, and I gotta say, this game really looks amazing in motion. It's kind of hard to explain that in a way that doesn't sound pointless because Orenronen is doing an excellent job at showing everything, but the entire game just seems to be really pleasant to play. Like the sound effects and interface really help the game make its own atmosphere, if that makes sense. I think I said this before, but I'd really recommend everyone to buy this game if only to see how it works in motion. It's kind of hard to describe it but it really adds something to the game. I'm not entirely sure what that something is, but it's definitely something. Another thing I think people forget when following along this LP(or maybe that's just me and I'm an idiot) is that this is a game as opposed to a book or something. What I mean is, the game part of it is actually pretty fun. It might look a little bland from just watching the videos, but it's not just a gimmicky thing to make it different from say, Phoenix Wright. It's actually pretty fun!
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Mar 23, 2013 01:33
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I'm unreasonably happy at the fact the characters were actually saying what I thought they were. It's just like the feeling of getting a theory right in a murder mystery, except with more linguistics and no mystery solving at all--so it's not alike at all. So really I have no idea what I'm saying but I'm sure some of you know what I mean. I really love the dynamic between Hinata and Nagito, if only because it highlights how Hinata is more assertive than Naegi. I thought the DR2 cast seemed less fun than the first one at first but the trial really makes them start to make them feel fun.VoidBurger posted:I almost didn't read the update because I thought it would be an elaborate April Fool's joke with a ton of convincing HelloWinter forgery art assets because I'm a paranoid freak on April 1st. Why would you a post filled with HelloWinter's art make you not want to read something? Those are amazing!
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Apr 1, 2013 18:20
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