Ask me about Medieval History & Combat.

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Buried alive: Jun 8, 2009

I've heard of a medieval thing called the Murder Stroke. I'd always assumed it was the dagger to the face/armpit mentioned above, but a quick google shows it's some kind of half-swording technique I guess? Can you elaborate on what it is? I'm curious mainly because murder stroke just sounds :black101:

as heck.

# ¿ Feb 4, 2013 18:13

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# ¿ May 4, 2024 20:23

Buried alive: Jun 8, 2009

EvanSchenck posted:

Generally speaking a weapon of whatever type meant to be wielded in one hand would usually weigh in the range of 1.2-1.8 kg (2 1/2 to 4 pounds, roughly). This is shown by surviving examples of weapons held in museum and private collections, and it goes for swords, axes, maces, and so forth....

I've sometimes heard that english/western European weapons were essentially big metal clubs in the area of 10-20 lbs. Are there any surviving historical examples of those that were intended for combat? Or is that more from the mistaken attitude that katana > all.

# ¿ Feb 6, 2013 17:50

Buried alive: Jun 8, 2009

Kaal posted:

A left-handed swordsman could not join a shield-wall or anything of that sort, because their equipment wasn't in the same place as their fellows. They would have an advantage in dueling though, because not many people would be used to fighting "backward". But there were few lefties in the European middle ages, because right-handedness was equated with godliness. Even in areas outside the Christian world, I'd expect that the rigidly formalized nature of period martial education would limit the number of lefty warriors.

I've heard that left-handers were good for fighting up castle towers during a siege. Something about the combination of the spiral stair case and the fact that his weapon is on the left instead of the right is supposed to give an advantage..somehow. I've also heard that Alexander put a left-handed person at the corner of a phalanx. Phalanxes had a tendency to drift right as they moved forward, having a lefty on one side fixed that. I don't know if there's any truth to that, but that's a direction to look in.

# ¿ Mar 13, 2013 18:18

Buried alive: Jun 8, 2009

Might be beyond the scope of this thread a little bit, but is there any indication that half-swording was a thing that eastern (thinking mostly chinese and japanese) cultures recognized? If not, why not?

# ¿ Mar 20, 2013 05:39

Buried alive: Jun 8, 2009

Imapanda posted:

What were widely used drugs back then?

Related question: What's the low-down on viking berserkers? I've heard that nordic/viking war paint was made out of some sort of plant with hallucinogenic properties, so these guys would get high as balls and then just charge the front lines of whatever it was they were facing off against. Any truth to that?

# ¿ Apr 20, 2013 01:21

Buried alive: Jun 8, 2009

MrYenko posted:

That was bad rear end.

A question from someone who knows nothing about actual swordsmanship: Would it be common for a fighter to swap his weapon from hand to hand in the middle of combat like that? I always imagined that anyone who depends on the sword as a practical day-to-day weapon would practice and fight equally well with either hand, but I also figured that you would probably not risk losing your weapon by switching during a fight. Is the unpredictability worth the risk?

Going to say extremely uncommon for a few reasons. Any time spent training your non-main hand is time that could be spent training your main hand. If this is a dual usage style (rapier/dagger, sword/shield, etc) there's no way you're switching both in any amount of time to make it useful. Finally, I don't know how common this was in the medieval period, but it's possible for weapons to be designed to be used by only one hand or the other, rather than either. I think there might be some examples in relatively modern cavalry sabers and I know that's the case in modern sport fencing.

# ¿ Apr 29, 2013 04:10

Buried alive: Jun 8, 2009

^^^ From earlier in the thread, those are dueling shields. The idea being that since neither combatant is familiar with such a weapon, that ensures a more level playing field. Also the 4th picture down (or 3rd one up) is a murder stroke and not something that's goofy. Even though it sure as hell looks silly.

# ¿ Apr 30, 2013 15:10

Buried alive: Jun 8, 2009

HEGEL SMOKE A J posted:

I had always heard it was in response to firearms and crossbows.

I'd heard it was in response to developing steels/weapons which could hold a fine point and would basically go through chain like it wasn't there, then it fell out of favor once firearms/crossbows became powerful enough to pierce it consistently.

# ¿ Jun 18, 2013 04:38

Buried alive: Jun 8, 2009

Grand Prize Winner posted:

I can't speak with any authority, but I'm under the impression that modern fencing originates from street-fighting tactics used during the Italian renaissance--how to fight with a good sword, no armor, and a cloak wrapped around your arm or a dagger for parrying with the off-hand.

As the centuries wore on, fencing became focused more on dueling than on self-defense, so began to favor longer and lighter swords, some of which weren't sharpened along the blade. The idea was to skewer your opponent before he skewered you. I think tactics related to these rapiers were the French and Spanish schools.

ARMA-style fighting-in-armor martial arts died out in the west as melee weapons gave way to the musket and wasn't really revived as a martial art until the... late 80s or so? I think they get a lot of their information from continental fechtbucher from c. 1400 to 1600AD/CE.

Bolding for emphasis. Part of what makes different schools of sword fighting is not just who lived and who died, but also in-fighting/dueling within a region. Different cultures come up with their own ways of waging warfare. I don't know the history, but I do know that in addition to French and Spanish, there are also Italian, German and Polish styles (schools) of fencing.

# ¿ Sep 10, 2013 03:22

Buried alive: Jun 8, 2009

quote:

German Fencing stuff

Every time I'd heard German fencing mentioned it was always in the context of making a joke about having a bitchin' fencing scar after someone had scored a point from a face hit. So yeah, I guess that's the one.

# ¿ Sep 10, 2013 15:42

Buried alive: Jun 8, 2009

Railtus posted:

I have never seen it. Do you have any links at all to some of the fencing? I would actually really enjoy doing another fight analysis like I did with Rob Roy.

On that note, if there any more movie swordfights anyone wants me to comment on. Link it up and I would be more than happy to do so.

Sure, I'll bite. Hector vs. Achilles in troy. Fight start at about 1:30
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1slkFc7YBkc

# ¿ Sep 13, 2013 05:25

Buried alive: Jun 8, 2009

Grand Prize Winner posted:

Write fight scenes? Do you do that professionally? It seems like you could, if there's a market for it.

edit: Someone at my school is starting a fencing club. Which style (foil, epee, saber) is closest to useful for recronstructivist martial arts? I know that any form's gonna be pretty far removed.

vvv: fair 'nuff. It's good exercise at least, right?

Epee is closest because gently caress right-of-way. Speaking as someone who does both a martial art and fencing, I find sparring (even just for points) in martial arts to be a lot more physically demanding than fencing.

# ¿ Sep 14, 2013 07:23

Buried alive: Jun 8, 2009

IM_DA_DECIDER posted:

I don't know about other people, but in a real fight with pointy objects I'd go for the right-of-way parry-riposte instead of the gently caress everything counter attack that ends in everyone getting stabbed.

But yeah, sport fencing is probably not the closest approximation to medieval combat.

edit: Actually in a real fight with pointy objects I'd run the gently caress away

Right-of-way, in sport fencing, is an actual rule in foil and saber, but not epee. Parry-riposte is a good tactic, and it's one I do quite a lot. It's just that (again, in foil and saber) if your opponent extends his arm first, he has right-of-way. If you do some sort of counter which hits successfully but doesn't gain you right of way, then you don't get a point for it. That occurence is rather rare, but it is a thing that can happen.

# ¿ Sep 15, 2013 17:32

Buried alive: Jun 8, 2009

IM_DA_DECIDER posted:

I was always under the impression that right of way is meant to encourage foil- and saberists to actually defend themselves, as if they were being threatened with real weapons. Otherwise there's nothing stopping you from just attacking into your opponent's attack kamikaze style, which would end badly for everyone if real weapons were involved.

And as I have never come across a situation like this, when would you ever not get a point for correctly touching your opponent just because they had the right of way (unless of course their attack was on target)?

Bolded for emphasis because that's how right-of-way is defined. If you don't have right-of-way, you cannot score a point. The most common situation that comes to mind is when there's a range difference. Initiator extends (he has right of way) and lunges. The other person (with slightly longer arms, say) goes for a stop thrust and successfully hits first. Then likely gets touched by the guy who initiated since the other person didn't really defend himself.

The way that would be resolved in my group is that since the counter never took right-of-way from the initiator, no points are awarded.

You also don't really see (intentional) kamikaze attacks even in epee where there is no right-of-way. Mostly because I imagine doing so leaves you open and they'd hit first anyway.

To be fair to all this, a successful parry or dodge gives the defender right-of-way, so it's not like the rule doesn't make sense at all. All I'm saying is that in an actual fight, right-of-way might exist as a tactical concept or something, but it doesn't have the same ontological weight as the actual rule in sport fencing.

# ¿ Sep 16, 2013 20:20

Buried alive: Jun 8, 2009

Railtus posted:

Jet Li stuff.

Based on the guard the fencing guy is using a saber of some sort.

# ¿ Sep 17, 2013 16:39

Buried alive: Jun 8, 2009

Yeah, the blade looks straight, but the guard doesn't have anything that looks like a cross-guard, which every rapier I've ever seen has some aspect of. Of course I'm not the historian so :shrug:

. Are there historical examples of Epees with that kind of guard?

A straight-bladed saber is kind of mind-blowing. That scene caused me to go looking for a match and the 1913 Paton saber looks pretty close, which is also a straight-bladed saber. First time I'd ever seen anything like that. I thought that the curved blade is what made a saber an actual saber. Except for light sabers, but that's neither here nor there.

# ¿ Sep 17, 2013 22:17

Buried alive: Jun 8, 2009

Kaal posted:

Amusingly, this dichotomy continues to the modern day. The ceremonial swords of U.S. Army officers, for instance, are curved sabers, while those of the NCOs are straight-swords.

But are the NCO's swords referred to as sabers? From your post I assume that they are, but some googling tells me they're just called swords.

As far as cavalry goes, I never connected being used by cavalry as what makes a saber a saber. I understand that cavalry frequently used sabers because curved blades are handy for that sort of thing, but that's it. Is that how it first got started? Some uppity army general or something just went all "Look, our cavalry use sabers, so even if you give us a straight sword, we're still calling them sabers. Now kindly STFU and GTFO." That would explain the Paton 'saber' I suppose.

# ¿ Sep 18, 2013 05:35

Buried alive: Jun 8, 2009

What makes that an earlier two-handed sword as opposed to a longsword?

# ¿ Dec 24, 2013 05:17

Buried alive: Jun 8, 2009

Stormtrooper posted:

- In art: BNF NAF 5243 f. 46r: http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4365/16764/
...

I just want to say that the way one of the guys on the right has his thumb cocked makes the picture hilarious. "Check out Sir Fruits-a-lot over there with the basket on his hat."

# ¿ Apr 29, 2014 22:13

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# ¿ May 4, 2024 20:23

Buried alive: Jun 8, 2009

What's the deal with flamberges/flame-bladed weapons in general? Like, who came up with that? What are they for? I've heard both that it feels weird to the opponent who's intercepting the blade with his own and also that it leaves wounds which are harder to treat for..some reason. I guess.

# ¿ Mar 8, 2016 04:05

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