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How did health affect the effectiveness of troops in medieval times? I imagine most soldiers were much weaker than they could have been due to malnutrition, sleep deprivation, dysentery, and various other conditions. What was the medieval equivalent of Noughts and Crosses you mentioned? I'd love to hear more about medieval games that are no longer played today.
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Jan 24, 2013 19:19
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Earwicker posted:Am I correct in assuming that if a person from the Middle Ages were to somehow fall into a time machine and show up in 2013, that anyone who met them would probably pass out due to their hideous stench? Conversely, if a person from 2013 somehow ended up in the Middle Ages would they most likely get burned as a witch, die of smallpox, become a beggar, or use their futuristic knowledge to get rich?
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Jan 24, 2013 19:27
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Anne Whateley posted:I dunno dude. It felt like all of my professors loved "The Holy Roman Empire was neither holy, nor Roman, nor an empire. Discuss It lasted a long time, so it's easy to make that case for the Holy Roman Empire in the 18th century. In the 13th century it was intimately connected to the Pope and a powerful empire in Europe. Penthesilea posted:My area of specialty is the Black Death of the mid-14th century, and gender/social relations in mid to late Medieval England. What kind of opportunities did women have to learn in Medieval England? I understand that formal education didn't exist for most people, but I'd like to know more about the kinds of informal education from family and friends that were available to girls and women at the time.
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Jan 29, 2013 07:44
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Black Bones posted:I get the impression that no one could tell Henry V anything. Like King Charles VI was like "No, your not the King of France, don't be ridiculous - ok fine! Here's the crown and my daughter, just please stop killing people, Jesus!" Edward III of England had the strongest claim to be king of France after Charles IV died back in 1328. The French didn't want an English king so they went against precedent, pulled some rules out of their rear end that a woman can't pass royal power, and gave the throne to Philip de Valois. When Henry V came along he had a legal claim, but the French monarchy had a clear de facto status as the rulers of France. The monarchs of England kept claiming to rule France until 1801.
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Feb 3, 2013 07:30
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How vicious were medieval soldiers to their downed opponents? When someone in good plate armour got knocked to the ground, how did his enemy go about actually killing him?
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Feb 4, 2013 07:45
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I've seen shoddily crafted modern day swords that indeed weigh 20 pounds or more. Usually these are imitations of an unrealistic sword from some anime or video game, so of course they're completely impractical. The myth of heavy medieval swords has been spread by some sport fencers who like to imagine that a foil has any military advantage over a sword designed for lethality, so they focus on the perceived clumsiness of a large sword.
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Feb 6, 2013 21:03
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Nektu posted:The saber-fighting instructions for soldiers during the 1800s may be a similar case: they basically boiled down to 8 cuts and some few forms of defense (if I remember correctly). Simple enough to teach quickly to a large number of people, effective enough that many of them would be able to kill somebody in a fight. It also comes down to the fact that some moves are just better than all the others. The best sport fencers nowadays mostly use two parries and a bunch of variations on those two, rather than practicing the other, less worthwhile parries.
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Feb 6, 2013 22:18
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Nektu posted:Well, and there is that little thing that sport fencers are suicide fighters, because only the first hit counts - they dont care if they get hit themselves after they scored their own hit. That's not really accurate. Fencing, especially with the foil, has a system of priority so that sometimes scoring the first hit doesn't mean you win the bout. The intent is that a stabbed opponent presumably can't press an attack, but blindly lunging at someone in the process of attacking will get you killed.
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Feb 7, 2013 08:48
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What were the heaviest handheld weapons ever used in warfare? I know there's a tendency to exaggerate weapon weights for various reasons, but I'm curious to know the real answer.
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Mar 25, 2013 06:15
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Buried alive posted:Related question: What's the low-down on viking berserkers? I've heard that nordic/viking war paint was made out of some sort of plant with hallucinogenic properties, so these guys would get high as balls and then just charge the front lines of whatever it was they were facing off against. Any truth to that? There are various theories about drugs or psychology, but it's worth pointing out that sources don't agree exactly how effective the berserkers were. Some sagas describe them as nearly unkillable monsters dedicated to tearing apart the enemy, other writers described them as frenzied and unreliable fighters. Are there good, modern historical analyses considering how effective real berserkers were in battle?
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Apr 22, 2013 01:14
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Rabhadh posted:That fight on the bridge between Jaime and Brienne was one of the worst things I've seen in ages I just look at the video; I don't watch the show. Clearly they're in love and know they're being watched so they're pretending to fight while trying not to hurt each other, right?
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Apr 23, 2013 17:50
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Railtus posted:The Duellists seems to be smallsword fencing, which I know less about. However, the overlarge movements are from the guy backing away nervously (clearly the less skilled fighter), while the confident one is using very economical movements. Their guard is good, they are both making sure they are not easy targets. One of the fighters panics, and you can actually see when his technique falls to pieces, and as soon as he overcommits to the attack he gets killed for it. Overall it is very realistic, assuming both fighters are erring on the side of defence (not unreasonable). I was in small-sword fencing for three years, and the scenes from Rob Roy and Deluge were favourites among the members of my fencing club. I just watched that scene from The Duelists, and it was well done. Both fighters were clearly concerned about their own protection, and using the point-in-line (or line) heavily - this is where you extend your sword so your opponent can't simply charge towards you. Foil fencing heavily emphasizes priority and the right of way, and attacking into a line is recognized as a terrible idea that would get both fencers killed. It's rarely used long in high-level fencing because it's tiring and easily beaten once your arm is presented, but it's common to see less experienced fencers stymied by a good line and unable to attack into it. The bald guy is clearly less experienced and doesn't know how to use the strong part of his blade (the forte) against the opponent's weaker part (the foible), so he resorts to big swashing attacks. When he charged in at the end his opponent was forced to make some awkward parries, but a running attack like that is fairly easy to hit with a solid counterattack. Sabre fencing was pejoratively called "jousting" in the 90's because the priority rules made it beneficial to do rushing attacks past your opponent, as it was illegal to hit a fencer after they passed your body. Now the priority rules have been changed to discourage this, and it's a really bad idea to run at someone for more than two steps.
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Apr 29, 2013 06:52
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Xiahou Dun posted:No, this just made me angry. It's entirely blocking with the blade and attacking out of range and all sorts of bullshit stuff. It is literally just saber fencing with a budget. I'm really sorry, but I disagree and think it is an awful fight-scene. I don't understand the context either, but it's clearly a fight between a bad fencer and a good fencer who's holding back for some reason. The dark-shirted man is holding back in all kinds of ways and occasionally showing off, and then when the white-shirt says something to him he stops playing around and just cuts him open. It's a bit like Rob Roy where you see two very different styles in competition, where one is a Flynning bullshit style and the other is economical and not aggressive.
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Apr 29, 2013 08:14
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Nice piece of fish posted:That is hi-larious. Do you have more? Becuase that poo poo is golden. I second this request, this is one of my favourite parts of the thread so far.
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May 4, 2013 03:04
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Arglebargle III posted:A guy with plate armor versus a guy with no armor is pretty unfair, yeah. That's kind of the whole point. In the famous duel between Jean de Carrouges and Jacques Le Gris, they both fought in plate armour with a lances, axe, sword, and dagger. Le Gris stabbed Carrouges in the thigh, who then wrestled him to the ground, and picked up his sword to try and slash through Le Gris's armour. This didn't work, so Carrouges kept his opponent pinned and used the dagger to pry open Le Gris's mask and then killed him with a stab through the gorget. This tells me that a dagger was probably not very useful in fighting an opponent until you have him in a position where you need to penetrate the armour fatally. A lightly-armoured combatant could use the mordhau against plate armour to stun his enemy, and then use a dagger to actually penetrate the armour. In the fencing club we've talked a bit about knife fighting, if a dagger is your only weapon against a sword the best chance (other than fleeing) is to do a flying tackle and try to pin and stab your opponent in a single move. The tactics for knife fighting look very different from sword fighting because the chance of surviving the fight is lower for both combatants.
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May 8, 2013 06:12
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How did pikes influence the reduced popularity of plate armour? I've heard that guns alone weren't enough to end the era of heavy armour, but the combination of "pike and shot" made plate mail knights obsolete on the battlefield.
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Jun 19, 2013 09:00
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Oct 29, 2013 21:32
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Frostwerks posted:Being wealthy and stealing from poor people is unquestionably fun, but it's a poor rate of return. Being wealthy and stealing from poor people is a decent description of feudalism, you just need a church backing you up.
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Nov 5, 2013 10:11
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Railtus posted:How long spent as a squire varies. The traditional figure I have come across suggests 7 years as a page and 7 years as a squire, but this is just from quick online searches and I have never encountered any reason to believe this is set in stone. It was traditional for a studying craftsman to spend 7 years as an apprentice and 7 years as a journeyman before being accepted into the craftsman's guild. Presumably knights used the same time schedule because it followed the widely accepted custom.
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Nov 8, 2013 05:36
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:Cities smelled really bad because tossing poo poo onto the street was a real thing. Also, animals were dragging poo poo around and you can't keep them from pooping where they wanted. Diseases spread from horse dung killed thousands of people in New York City. The automobile was heralded as an end to pollution. I understand that medieval people washed themselves much more than we think, and if they didn't have enough water to bathe in they could still scrape themselves clean or wash with small basins of water.
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Nov 15, 2013 06:08
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Rabhadh posted:I love this. It's a term from online gaming that refers to a high-level player attacking a defenceless one. I suppose it applies well to real military conflicts when you consider how many people have the role of supplying the fighting force rather than being the fighters.
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Dec 11, 2013 22:15
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Squalid posted:woah, apparently I didn't actually know what rammed earth was. Stuff looks really cool, almost like natural shale. Highly effective against any or all of the Three Stooges.
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Dec 14, 2013 07:29
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Arglebargle III posted:Or just build it out of one of DARPA's powered exoskeletons. You can put the powerpack on your robot horse. Then you can carry 300 pounds of armor and greatly exceed the previous best. And you could probably carry a light autocannon for a lance. 20 millimeters of chivalry. If the rules of this challenge let you have an autocannon, I'm going to define "suit of armour" as "battle rifle with depleted uranium bullets" and win the medieval warfare contest. It's an interesting question to wonder what we can do about old designs with modern materials, but the main thing we do with modern materials is create weapons that are quite unlike previous ones.
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Dec 20, 2013 16:56
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Who'd like to learn about the Battle of Hattin? It's a great example of the problems that arise when an inexperienced commander ignores logistics and bravely charges into a trap. In 1187, the Crusaders had put Jerusalem was under control of a Christian king. King Guy of Jerusalem was in a tricky position, with a number of the nobles under his command contesting his coronation. He was concerned that hesitating in the face of Saladin's army would cost him his fragile grip on the throne. In July, Saladin besieged a fort at Tiberias in an attempt to lure Guy's forces away from the safety of their defences. The Crusaders walked right into a trap, trying to cross fifty kilometres of desert and fight a battle on the other side. Guy had a force of 20,000 men, including 1,500 knights, 3,000 light cavalry. Saladin outnumbered him with a force of 12,000 light cavalry and 18,000 dismounted men. Perhaps Guy, a Frenchman, didn't understand quite how stupid it is to send armoured men across the Judean desert in July. He brought the Jerusalem garrison with him, and felt so confident about this desert jaunt that he brought his treasured True Cross*. The original plan was to take an easy march across the desert and reach Lake Tiberias on the second day. Instead, the Christian army found itself under constant archery attack from Saladin's heavy horsemen. This harassment couldn't hurt the Crusaders, as they wore padded coats capable of stopping arrows. Being forced to march through the sweltering heat in full armour took its own toll, and the Islamic cavalry were wearing gear suited to the desert. On the first night, Guy's army made a dry camp in the desert. On the morning of the second day, the desperate Crusaders realized that Saladin's army was in between them and Lake Tiberias. Saladin had sent his forces behind the Crusaders and captured the spring at Tur'an, the nearest source of water. King Guy decided to march to the well at the Horns of Hattin, where Jesus delivered the Sermon on the Mount**. Under constant harassment and running out of water, they nonetheless reached the twin hills at Hattin and briefly joined battle with Saladin's army. The Muslim troops struggled briefly to keep the Crusaders from the Hattin, but after sun set on the second day of Guy's march the Europeans were making camp at Hattin. It was only after they began pitching tents that someone pointed out enemy cavalry had plugged up the well - Guy had failed to scout the area before sending his troops on their march for water. Sunrise on the third day brought a clear view of Lake Tiberias's glistening waters a few kilometres away to Crusaders who hadn't had a drink in a day of desert heat. It brought a clear view of the massive enemy army outside their camp, and a strong wind exploited by that army, who lit a grass fire to further worsen conditions in the Christian camp. The local army had a series of camel caravans bringing skins of water from the lake to their troops, while the foreigners could only look at the water in the distance. Given a clear view of the lake, Balian of Ibelin was the first to make a desperate charge for the water. He led a few dozen sergeants on horseback in a dash through the enemy army and onward to the lake, becoming one of the few Crusaders to escape the battle. After many dehydrated officers ran for the lake or died trying, the mass of disorganized footsoldiers made a desperate push through Saladin's army. With Guy's knights remaining in camp to defend the "True Cross", almost all of the men on foot were cut down by heavy cavalry. On the mountain where Jesus said "blessed are the peacemakers", defending a piece of wood said to come from the crucifixion, Guy made his final stand. His well-equipped knights pushed back Saladin's army repeatedly. Rather than engaging in combat with heavily armoured knights, the attackers could pull back because the Crusaders had nowhere to go. As the day wore on, the lightly armoured Muslims kept well-hydrated while the knights fell from thirst and lack of rest. Saladin's son described the end of the battle: "When the king of the Franks [Guy] was on the hill with that band, they made a formidable charge against the Muslims facing them, so that they drove them back to my father [Saladin]. I looked towards him and he was overcome by grief and his complexion pale. He took hold of his beard and advanced, crying out "Give the lie to the Devil!" The Muslims rallied, returned to the fight and climbed the hill. When I saw that the Franks withdrew, pursued by the Muslims, I shouted for joy, "We have beaten them!" But the Franks rallied and charged again like the first time and drove the Muslims back to my father. He acted as he had done on the first occasion and the Muslims turned upon the Franks and drove them back to the hill. I again shouted, "We have beaten them!" but my father rounded on me and said, "Be quiet! We have not beaten them until that tent [Guy's] falls." As he was speaking to me, the tent fell. The sultan dismounted, prostrated himself in thanks to God Almighty and wept for joy." Saladin's army marched into the Crusaders' camp and took every survivor prisoner. A few notorious soldiers were beheaded, but most were taken prisoner and eventually ransomed back to the Pope. Guy had drained his garrisons to mobilize an army of 20,000, and Saladin soon captured Tiberias and Jerusalem. Exact casualties are unknown, but it was a lopsided affair - estimated around 17,000 dead under Guy, and 2,000 dead under Saladin. * Not actually the True Cross ** Maybe
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Feb 5, 2014 00:24
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WEEDLORDBONERHEGEL posted:Like curling, medieval military history involves a lot more thought than might be apparent at first glance. And like curling, about five people in the world are doing anything more than pretending to give a drat. Why are you no longer allowed in Special Collections? the JJ posted:They're a romanticized mess, but the short version is, not really. Assassination was part of a tool set they used, but (~supposedly~) the scary bit was, because they were all fanatic/high on hash/hooked on hash and would only get more if they followed orders/whatever, they'd straight up walk up to a dude, stab him, and then wait for the bodyguards to take them in. Not needing an escape plan made them hard to plan around. There's a similar problem in Secret Service protection. It's possible to prepare for someone like Oswald who means to shoot the president and make an escape, but it's very hard to defend against someone like Booth or Hinckley who charges the president with a handgun and has no getaway plan.
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Feb 11, 2014 09:28
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Minarchist posted:Oh god the "preferred" method at the end is amazing Reminds me of a joke. A bear and rabbit are pooping in the woods. Bear asks Rabbit, "do you have a problem with poo poo sticking to your fur?" The rabbit says no, so the bear wipes his rear end with the rabbit.
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Mar 18, 2014 05:57
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