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DandyLion posted:God if only. Correct I am not a historian, or even a particularly proficient writer. I get pleasantly excited when 'Historians' believe they understand something without practical application. I'ts easier to speculate than to scientifically test for the validity of something. There's a role for fighting in order to develop ideas, but there's nothing scientific about it and it certainly isn't conclusive. InspectorBloor posted:I'm having a deja vu of whitebelts argueing which sporty martial art is better. It's all jacking off unless you fight no holds barred. Well there's a lot more HEMA folks than ARMA, so I'd say that it's pretty likely the ARMA would get overwhelmed by sheer force of numbers, if nothing else. 
Kaal fucked around with this message at 19:13 on Feb 4, 2014 |
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Feb 4, 2014 19:09
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DandyLion posted:I'd rather 'spar or physically demonstrate' under any circumstances to prove my point than verbally argue over it. But if all of ARMA and all of HEMA fought, then ARMA would totally lose. So what could ARMA possibly know? Or is relying entirely on combat to settle academic disputes absurd? 
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Feb 4, 2014 19:25
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DandyLion posted:I am implying one-on-one fights to test out techniques, so it doesn't have to be a membership numbers game. ARMA has hosted events with other HEMA groups whom we disagree with for the sake of either becoming educated to whatever we don't understand, or to educate other groups as to what they misunderstand. But that's the same kind of patently ahistorical behavior that you're accusing HEMA folks of. Two warriors armed and armored, going at it on the field of valor is something that happens at faires. Don't you know your history? The War of the Roses wasn't a duel. If the only valid test of technique is a no-holds-barred fight (which it isn't), this is the reality of that kind of fight. Kaal fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Feb 4, 2014 |
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Feb 4, 2014 19:36
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double post
Kaal fucked around with this message at 20:08 on Feb 4, 2014 |
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Feb 4, 2014 19:58
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Rodrigo Diaz posted:This is not really correct. A lot of the surviving manuscripts do not deal directly with wartime combat, but instead with judicial duelling and personal defence. The Talhoffer manuscripts especially show fighting in armour that is very explicitly given in the context of a judicial duel. Those judicial duels would also happen at public faires. It's not like they were conducted in secret. That would completely defeat their purpose. DandyLion posted:I don't believe it is. There are many references to dueling with longswords in the manuals. Master Fiore states that 3 times in his life he participated in unarmored duels with a longsword, and 3 times he emerged victorious and unscathed. InspectorBloor posted:You mistake something like a duel for a fight with no holds barred. And yeah, putting in caveats and handicaps undermines the whole idea of fighting as being the only true test of technique. If you open the door to that, then you're admitting that there needs to be a more methodical approach than simply pulling out swords and seeing who comes out on top.
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Feb 4, 2014 20:08
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Doctor Goon posted:Hey folks. Sorry to barge in like that, but what's a "straight-back rapier"? I mean, I know what a rapier is, but I don't get the "straight-back" part. I assume it means the blade is single-edged or something, but I can't be sure and Google refuses to help and this is driving me crazy and and and I wasn't familiar with the term either. From a quick Googling, they might be referring to the guard (i.e. a straight-guard "Torino" rapier), or they might be referring to how it rests when slung in the scabbard. What's the context?
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Feb 11, 2014 18:55
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Doctor Goon posted:The context is: there is no context. Seriously. No it was a good question since it led me to all sorts of interesting websites. I'd say that since the Chinese have such a variety of curved sword designs, they probably injected "straight-back" into the translation to help distinguish the rapier from other designs. Some swords have a straight-back and a curved edge, for example. But all rapiers are straight-backed and straight-edged. Or perhaps it was the Chinese attempt at differentiating a rapier from a foil, which looks similar but is much more flexible and not as "straight-backed". Apparently there was also some translation issues with the rapier because it's actually a German term for an Italian design, and the Italians never really used that specific term themselves, so perhaps it has something to do with the Chinese interpretation of that. I dunno. Rapière is probably a more than adequate translation.
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Feb 11, 2014 23:41
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Yeah there's a thousand different reasons. The simple one that I like the most is that French and British nobility adopted Agnatic Primogeniture succession law, which assigned all titles to the eldest son (or sometimes daughter), whereas the Germanic nobility retained their Salic Law that would divide titles amongst the sons. Primogeniture had a centralizing effect over generations, whereas Salic Law encouraged everyone to vie for their piece of the pie. In further evidence of this: Regions like Ireland and Wales that retained Gavelkind, which is the British/Norman equivalent of Salic succession, had similar problems with organizing and consolidating power as compared to their Primogeniture-neighbors. Salic Law and Gavelkind were probably more fair to individuals, as there were fewer junior princes that ended up with nothing more than a country manor, but it's difficult to talk about fairness in a time where a country manor meant you were better off than 99% of people. I'm not sure either method was particularly better for reducing internecine conflict - Salic Law meant that there was lots of people who were capable of fighting for their own petty reasons, whereas Primogeniture meant that succession wars would get really bad since it was the only game in town.
Kaal fucked around with this message at 19:48 on Sep 15, 2014 |
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Sep 15, 2014 19:42
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IronicDongz posted:That is an exceptionally up-close mugshot. It's a normal mugshot, it's just that the man was actually a 10 foot-tall Forest Ogre.
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Sep 30, 2014 16:58
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Greek Fire like fo sho
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Oct 28, 2014 04:32
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Pellisworth posted:Edit: following from all that, just piercing or cutting our hypothetical Giant Spider isn't going to hurt it much. You really need to disable it by removing limbs, hit the brain, light it on fire, or gas it. There aren't much in the way of analogues to muscles, tendons, blood, and the heart. Yeah, it's true. Assuming the exoskeleton remains proportionally strong, fighting big insects with a weapon would be a huge pain in the rear end. Probably the most realistic way of fighting one would be just throwing a net over it and then jabbing it with spears in the joints. A crossbow bolt or a close-distance arrow would also probably be able to punch through just about any natural armor. Greek fire would be more fun though.
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Oct 28, 2014 04:53
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lonter posted:Who would win between a small strong guy with a big sword and a slow large guy with a bigsword - none of us can fight . The swords are blunt. Large guy, every time, unless he takes it easy on the small guy. Weight and reach matters more than anything else, particularly when there's no training. Speed is great, but you aren't playing tag. And realistically the large guy probably isn't as slow or as weak as the small guy might think. I'd say the first round goes to the small guy because he's got something to prove, and then the next round goes to the big guy when he clobbers the small one in retaliation, and the final round is a draw since the big guy doesn't want to lose but feels bad for hurting the small guy.
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Nov 19, 2014 21:23
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Verisimilidude posted:We've had a few injuries in my school, mostly broken fingers that occur during sparring. Our teacher had his pinky broken by the teaching assistant, and someone else had their pinky broken during a tournament. Hand injuries are probably the most common, and they occur when someone doesn't have ample hand protection (which neither had at the time). More standard injuries are tennis elbow and tendinitis, but we're pretty educated in making sure we're not overworking ourselves. That's kind of amazing to me. In my karate club we'd have all sorts of injuries over time: Dislocated elbows, shoulders, and jaws, cuts and bruises of all kinds, broken knuckles and fingers, fractured ribs, the works. The instructor even had a medic on retainer that was on hand for all the belt tests. Though to be fair, most of those injuries happened during the full-speed unarmed combat, rather than the half-speed armed combat.
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Nov 19, 2014 21:33
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Nektu posted:Well duh Haha well obviously with sai, nunchaku, or kama it'd end up being pretty bloody, but with tonfa or a bo you've got enough control that you can move pretty quickly as long as you pull your hits. And I'd think that using a bokken or a waster would lend itself to that even more so. I mean even with the full-speed unarmed kumite you aren't really trying to hurt the other person - it's sparring (though the brown and black belt tests could get a little dicey). Kaal fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Nov 20, 2014 |
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Nov 20, 2014 17:16
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How do you think full-speed armed combat would turn out (unless both combatants wear full plate armor or the modern equivalent)?
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the JJ posted:Sooooo, everyone goes off into their own corner and huddles up? Unsportsmanlike conduct, your teams have 30 seconds to move out or be disqualified.
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Feb 1, 2015 22:03
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HEY GAL posted:Which reminds me, I've actually been wondering this ever since I learned about it--why no padding in the 17th century? That stuff goes straight over your jacket. Is it because the clothing itself is really thick, and has been for a hundred years or so? Is it because if your armor won't stop a bullet a gambeson sure as poo poo won't? Something else? As far as I know, the gambeson began to shrink and lose popularity as the efficacy of armor increased. By the 16th century, knights relied entirely on their advanced and highly articulated plate armors, and anyone who wore a gambeson would have been considered uncouth and lower class. With the advent of gunpowder this began to change. As armor lost its efficacy, knights became more inclined to take off their armor (for reasons of speed, comfort, recognizability, style, etc.) and that led to a resurgence in the popularity of gambesons and similar wear. My guess is that you're looking at a transitional period. That said, it's also important to recognize that the gameson had changed over the centuries. By the 17th century, you're typically looking at something like a buff coat, which used thick leather rather than quilted cloth padding: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buff_coat Kaal fucked around with this message at 17:21 on Feb 3, 2015 |
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Feb 3, 2015 17:13
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HEY GAL posted:The function of the buff coat is to be bulletproof, not cushion your armor. The second link is really interesting, and I've never seen anything like it. I wonder whom it belonged to, this is really cool. Really? I can't imagine that any buff coat would be bulletproof. Resistant to slashing swords, perhaps, but I'd think an arrow would have no problems penetrating it, much less a bullet. The link text says that the arquebus armor belonged to Pedro II, King of Portugal, ca. 1683.
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Feb 3, 2015 23:15
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Cyrano4747 posted:This is an old myth that has been tested to hell and back by both history and gun geeks. Every single time the conclusion is ".30 carbine is completely capable of going through a goddamned poo poo ton of cloth." The round is in the same ballpark as .44 magnum in terms of performance. Hey I'm sure that there is eventually a sufficient range where it could be stopped by an overcoat. Just walk a few kilometers away and hope there isn't a breeze. Kaal fucked around with this message at 08:05 on Feb 5, 2015 |
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Feb 5, 2015 08:01
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JaucheCharly posted:A: Hm. Hundreths of people running around and shooting. Wait, that could actually work. They won't get hit by the enemy if they move! Obviously they should start practicing how to catch each other's arrows in midair and then shoot them back at the enemy before they hit the ground.
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Feb 6, 2015 08:50
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Rent-A-Cop posted:All the modern cut/puncture armor I've ever used was essentially just chain mail with some kind of fabric cover. I imagine it's tough to beat a fine metal mesh for protection against spikes and blades. To be fair, modern stab vests are only rated against a fraction of the penetration force of a medieval weapon. Even a level three vest only protects against 65J of force, while a sword can easily deliver twice that. Knives and broken glass they can deal with, but martial weapons or arrows and bolts are another matter - never-mind an armor-piercing weapon like a poleaxe. Rabhadh posted:So you want armour made with modern materials but it only has to stand up to medieval weapons? Frankly it's pretty unlikely that we'd be able to do much better these days, unless we get into million-dollar robotic titanium armor territory. There's been promises made of plastics with material improvement over steel, but generally they lack the durability and breadth of resistance of metal. You could, for example, make armor out of carbon nano-tube that would be lighter than steel , but the relatively short strands means that it would also be highly susceptible to breakage and frangibility - a single impact might cause it to be irreparably damaged. Kevlar has similar issues, because it is designed to trap penetrations within the material rather than repel them, which means it has very limited re-usability. And there are other considerations as well, as advanced materials frequently have significant environmental limitations; Kevlar, for example, can be ruined by exposure to water or extreme temperatures. If we made a modern version of medieval armor, the upgrades would probably be along the lines of comfort and usability, rather than defensive performance. We'd use higher grade steel to allow the plate armor to be thinner and lighter, and strengthen the joints and openings with very durable Kevlar. We could add foam grips to the gauntlets and potentially improve vision by using clear plastic (though fogging and penetrative weakness would be real concerns). And we could improve upon the overall design to make it easier to put on and take off alone, such as using Velcro fasteners or elastic materials. In the end though, I don't think that you'd see a significant improvement. Kaal fucked around with this message at 19:39 on May 19, 2015 |
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May 19, 2015 19:23
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Blut posted:Thats exactly what I was wondering, thanks Kaal (and the other posters who responded). I was having the standard "full plate armour was bulky and useless" debate with a colleague and my point was it was effectively maximised for its purpose of the day, and that even with modern materials tech it wouldn't look/function a huge amount differently. But thought I'd ask the experts here. Glad to see I wasn't too far off! Well I'm certainly no expert and others may have a different opinion. But I think that fundamentally full plate armor was highly effective against the weapons that it faced, to the point that it took highly expensive reforms and innovations to finally make plate armor obsolete on the battlefield. Unless we could develop armor that could shrug off lances, poleaxes and crossbows, and I'm not sure that we could*, there isn't much more that a fully armored medieval knight wasn't already impervious to. Our best avenue for improvement would be through superior metallurgy, and they already had some pretty excellent steel by the end. They often didn't even wear much in the way of a gambeson under their armor by the end, simply because it was unnecessary. The other area would be cost, in the sense that we could produce higher-quality munitions armor more cheaply, which means that the average foot soldier would have better access to superior plate. *I should include a caveat here that medieval armor already had a high level of performance against anti-armor weapons, but the concussive and penetrative force of being hit by a bolt launched by a 1000+ lb crossbow or a lance backed up with a ton of horse moving at 25 mph remained a formidable one. Kaal fucked around with this message at 08:22 on May 21, 2015 |
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May 20, 2015 22:58
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xthetenth posted:For a good while firearms just made high quality plate more important to the dudes who wore it, although the coverage got cut down. For sure, though another element that spurred the decrease in coverage was that armies were getting larger. Torso armor requires much less fitting than full body armor, and so munitions plate tended to not include leg coverage, which is certainly one of the contributors to the shrinkage of coverage in the average suit of armor.
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May 21, 2015 20:26
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FreudianSlippers posted:How is spending hours in pure agony with your limbs totally smashed before dying of shock not horrible enough for you? If they were feeling merciful they might bash in your skull and/or chop tyour head off before breaking the bones but that isn't exactly pleasant either. Lame. Needs to be way more mechanical and metaphorical about the wheels of progress trampling human dignity. Graded C+ - Please See the Teacher After Class.
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May 25, 2015 16:24
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LoonShia posted:Sitting in the village stocks for a day might not be that physically stressful, but the humiliation would be a fairly effective punishment. I think there should be more social punishments in our society. Thoughts? We already have tons of social punishments in our society. Virtually all criminal incidents are heavily reported on, with the accused forced to accept being photographed and often videotaped wearing special clothes that denote criminal behavior. The police and prosecutors deliver long statements about how unethical they are, and what damage their actions have caused, and then the judge or jury renders a verdict typically followed by a stern talking to that often is repeated verbatim by journalists. The knowledge of this crime is publicly recorded so that it will follow the convicted wherever they go, and for felony crimes they are legally obligated to report their criminal status in all sorts of situations. As far as social punishments go, our current system is far, far more effective than setting up stocks.
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May 31, 2015 17:12
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ManOfTheYear posted:Just watched Yojimbo with my friend and the japanese police constable had this thing in his hand: I've never seen that weapon before, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was real. You'd use the prong like the yoku on a sai I'm sure. The advantage there would be that you could club someone rather than fatally stab them. Ah here we go. The jitte was a sai variant used by police during the Edo Period. The distinctive weapon also served as a badge of office, much like a Roman fasces: quote:Jitte may have a small pointed tip or blade attached to the tsuka and hidden in the boshin. Jitte could be highly decorated with all manner of inlays and designs or very plain and basic depending on the status of the owner and the jitte's intended use. Jitte could range in length from around 12 inches to over 24 inches. [9] The modern jitte is about 45 cm (18 inches) long with no cutting edge and a one-pronged tine kagi, about 5 cm long starting just above the handle tsuka and pointing toward the tip sentan. A popular misconception is that the kagi is used to catch a sword. It could possibly be used for this purpose, but the kagi's proximity to the hand would make it rather dangerous. When faced with a swordsman, a more likely use for the kagi would be to capture and arrest the blade after blocking it with the boshin.[12] The kagi 's more common use is to hook into clothing or parts of the body like the nose or mouth, or to push into joints or other weak points on the body. It also could be used to hook the thumb while holding the weapon backwards, to allow different techniques such as punches and blocks, very similarly to a sai. The jitte can also be used in much the same manner as other short sticks or batons, to strike large muscle groups and aid in joint manipulation.[12] Kaal fucked around with this message at 18:34 on May 31, 2015 |
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May 31, 2015 18:26
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