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Data Graham posted:I really enjoy the Martin Shaw audiobook of the Silmarillion, for what it's worth. Seconding the audiobook. It's huge, but great if you have a commute.
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Mar 26, 2013 01:10
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I have started re-reading the trilogy after seeing the Hobbit movie with my kids. That got me interested in the wider history of ME, which I haven't really got into before now. I read the Silmarillion as a teen, but I don't remember much. I think I just skipped to the parts with dragons and poo poo. I was so stoked to find this thread and so disappointed to find it was only five pages long. I have been reading other forums and Jesus they suck. SA has spoiled me. Half the posts are people making stupid jokes with smilies or talking about pipe weed as ganja or asking about how orcs gently caress. I wish I could contribute more to this thread, but as of right now I just have two questions. First: Why do the Elves know so much about healing if they never get sick? And also, I assumed that Frodo's time with the ring is what caused him to become all depressed and leave the Shire to go live with elves. But, I was reading FotR last night and I got to the part where he was recovering in Rivendell after getting stabbed by the Morgul-blade. Gandalf says to his self that not even Elrond can tell what will happen to Frodo in the long term, and that he might end up as clear as glass with a light shining out, and that his arm already looked insubstantial (although he told Frodo he looked just great!). Now I am wondering if it's his wound that caused him to travel off with the Elves. Is there any merit to that?
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Mar 28, 2013 23:28
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The Dregs posted:I have started re-reading the trilogy after seeing the Hobbit movie with my kids. That got me interested in the wider history of ME, which I haven't really got into before now. I read the Silmarillion as a teen, but I don't remember much. I think I just skipped to the parts with dragons and poo poo. First one is a pretty interesting question I think. I would guess that it's because they've been spending so much time dealing with the bad stuff that Morgoth and later Sauron have done to the world. Morgoth's influence on the world was sort of like a Pandora's box thing, except without Pandora. He sort of introduced all the nasty brutish things into the world. Since most Elves are buddy buddy with the Vala, and since the Vala are always trying to heal the word of Morgoth's influence, it makes sense that the Elves would also become pretty good at healing poisons, sicknesses, wounds and whatever. I always thought that Frodo went and crossed the sea because he was a ring-bearer, and that's what ring-bearers did. Explains why Bilbo went as well.
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Mar 28, 2013 23:36
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I think it was a little of both (in terms of why he wanted to leave), but he was allowed to go specifically because he was the ring bearer (edit: I should say, a ring bearer. Sam is also told that he may one day be allowed to take the ship to the West, because he was a ring bearer for a short time, but now was not the time for that) . At the end of the third book, there's a passage where Sam finds Frodo looking pained, and tells Sam "I am wounded...it will never truly heal" and that was 2 years to the day he was stabbed by the Morgul blade. He was then later ill in March, which was when the main story comes to a head and the ring is finally destroyed.
Levitate fucked around with this message at 00:16 on Mar 29, 2013 |
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Mar 29, 2013 00:14
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He has recurring pains for a few reasons - one is the morgul blade, one is when the ring was destroyed, and I think one is for Shelob. I could be wrong about Shelob.
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Mar 29, 2013 01:55
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Right. I was wondering what Galdalf meant when he said (and I can't quote it exactly right now, I don't have the book handy) that Frodo could end up something like clear glass with a light shining out. It sounded to me that Frodo would end up becoming very wraithlike regardless. Whitch is worse than pains. But I am probably reading too much into it.
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Mar 29, 2013 02:28
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I have been a Lord of the Rings geek since being introduced to it as a kid when my dad got me a copy of the Hobbit. I almost wept when I saw it visualised in the movies despite all the annoying omissions and alterations (some perhaps necessary some not). The Silmarilion is incredible but is very difficult to read. Perhaps someone should do like an animated version of it being read, it would be an amazing thing to visualise.
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Mar 29, 2013 04:14
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VanSandman posted:He has recurring pains for a few reasons - one is the morgul blade, one is when the ring was destroyed, and I think one is for Shelob. I could be wrong about Shelob. "I am wounded with knife, sting, and tooth, and a long burden. Where shall I find rest?" In one of the History of Middle-earth books, Tolkien says that Frodo was permitted to pass over the Sea in part because the Ring had, to some extent or other, overthrown his mind. He did not, after all, relinquish it willingly; it was taken from him by force. He is allowed to go with the elves so that he might find true rest and balance before he dies.
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Mar 29, 2013 17:22
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The Dregs posted:Right. I was wondering what Galdalf meant when he said (and I can't quote it exactly right now, I don't have the book handy) that Frodo could end up something like clear glass with a light shining out. It sounded to me that Frodo would end up becoming very wraithlike regardless. Whitch is worse than pains. What Gandalf probably means is that Frodo's wound will either make him fade completely and become under the dominion of Sauron, or fade partially and become spiritual and ethereal, which does happen over the course of TT and culminates in "I do not think it will be my part to strike any blow again" at the beginning of ROTK. This creates an interesting contrast between him and Sam, who is able to shake the Ring off because of his concrete, physical nature- he knows that the Ring's visions are ridiculous, and between him and Faramir, who is able to shake the Ring off because of his high-mindedness. Of course, this also plays into the basic moral structure of LOTR. Frodo has to become pacifistic because the book is basically about weakness overcoming strength.
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Mar 29, 2013 17:53
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xcheopis posted:"I am wounded with knife, sting, and tooth, and a long burden. Where shall I find rest?" One side effect of him going West is that he will actually die faster, which helps to prevent him trying to cling on to life like Gollum and Bilbo had.
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Mar 29, 2013 18:01
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rypakal posted:One side effect of him going West is that he will actually die faster, which helps to prevent him trying to cling on to life like Gollum and Bilbo had. With the One Ring destroyed, would he have even been able to cling to life? I thought that was a function of the ring. I don't recall how book accurate this is, but Galadrial's narration in the film says that it was the ring itself that granted Gollum "unnatural long life."
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Mar 29, 2013 19:04
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Gollum finds the ring in 2463 and its destroyed in 3019 so he was 556! Id call that long life, not much of a fun one but still. Its strongly hinted that all the great rings of power provided long life (apart from the 3 never touched by Sauron, and elves never needed that anyway) at the cost of gradually fading into a ghost instead of just dieing. This of course is a main theme and where the Nazgul came from, they just wanted to live forever, as they were of the most part of the Numenor people who resented not being immortal like the elves.
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Mar 29, 2013 19:23
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jivjov posted:With the One Ring destroyed, would he have even been able to cling to life? I thought that was a function of the ring. I don't recall how book accurate this is, but Galadrial's narration in the film says that it was the ring itself that granted Gollum "unnatural long life." Frodo wasn't unnaturally old, you know.
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Mar 29, 2013 19:58
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xcheopis posted:Frodo wasn't unnaturally old, you know. Yeah but I recall descriptions of him saying that he was unnaturally youthful for a hobbit of his age (like 50). Also, that was one of the strangest things that I ever learned about LotR, that Frodo was like 50 years old. That and Merry and Pippin were like 30 something. I think that the movies made a good decision making them much younger (or at least younger looking).
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Mar 29, 2013 20:01
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Seaside Loafer posted:Gollum finds the ring in 2463 and its destroyed in 3019 so he was 556! Id call that long life, not much of a fun one but still. In addition to the example of Gollum, we have the example of Bilbo. Bilbo ages very rapidly, but doesn't age very rapidly and then die. He may have voluntarily let his life go eventually, but a little trip in Valinor would speed the process right along. None of them could permanently cling to life, but they could live long past their natural end of life.
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Mar 29, 2013 20:01
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SHISHKABOB posted:Yeah but I recall descriptions of him saying that he was unnaturally youthful for a hobbit of his age (like 50). Hobbitisess precious are longer lived than normal men, Pippin hadnt even come of age by the time he reached Gondor. One thing ive always found annoying in the tolkien universe is there is zero description of where and what the hell hobbits are and where they came from. We know all about how elves men and dwarves were made but nothing on hobbits. All we have is some vauge references to where they used to live.
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Mar 29, 2013 20:15
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rypakal posted:In addition to the example of Gollum, we have the example of Bilbo. Bilbo ages very rapidly, but doesn't age very rapidly and then die. He may have voluntarily let his life go eventually, but a little trip in Valinor would speed the process right along. None of them could permanently cling to life, but they could live long past their natural end of life. He didn't age rapidly; he "picked up where he left off" after giving up the Ring. He was 129 when the Fellowship set out, so of course he's going to look aged by then. I don't recall anything in the History volumes about Valinor speeding up the dying process, however.
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Mar 29, 2013 20:21
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Seaside Loafer posted:Im pretty sure he didnt even use the ring at all until Bree, just kept it locked up until Gandalf comes to visit. An elf and a dwarf loved each other very much.
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Mar 29, 2013 20:28
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Hobbits are men.
euphronius fucked around with this message at 20:49 on Mar 29, 2013 |
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Mar 29, 2013 20:37
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xcheopis posted:I don't recall anything in the History volumes about Valinor speeding up the dying process, however.
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Mar 29, 2013 20:40
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Tom Bombadil BOmBadIL OBOBIL BILBO There's your explanation right there 
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Mar 29, 2013 20:40
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euphronius posted:Hobbits are men. Maybe in your head-canon. Not in mine. Seaside Loafer posted:There is some stuff where the elves are trying to convince the Numenoreans to stop being idiots before they just stop visiting altogether where they explain that taking over and living in Valinor would just make them die all the quicker not make them immortal because everything there is immortal. Something like 'your spirits would wane all the quicker'. From the Akallabeth "‘The Doom of the World,’ they said, ‘One alone can change who made it. And were you so to voyage that escaping all deceits and snares you came indeed to Aman, the Blessed Realm, little would it profit you. For it is not the land of Manwë that makes its people deathless, but the Deathless that dwell therein have hallowed the land; and there you would but wither and grow weary the sooner, [b]as moths in a light too strong and steadfast[b].’" Basically, there's too much holy for mortals to endure. rypakal fucked around with this message at 21:01 on Mar 29, 2013 |
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Mar 29, 2013 20:52
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quote:It is plain indeed that in spite of later estrangement Hobbits are So Hobbits "split" from Men in the First Age which was about 5,000 years before the Lord of the Rings.
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Mar 29, 2013 20:59
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rypakal posted:Basically, there's too much holy for mortals to endure. I imagine Frodo stepping off the boat and his head suddenly melting Raiders-style.
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Mar 30, 2013 00:34
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euphronius posted:Hobbits are men. Yeah, I think Tolkien does briefly go into their possible origins as being an off-shoot of Men. We know they originally dwelt in the Vales of Anduin (that's where Smeagol came from) but I don't recall if it was told when they moved to the Shire.
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Mar 30, 2013 00:48
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They aren't dwarves, orcs, or elves, so . . . . Men.
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Mar 30, 2013 00:50
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If Elves and Men can diddle each other why not Dwarves and Men? Hence: Hobbits.
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Mar 30, 2013 00:52
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Elf ~ Man love is really rare and even then the offspring has to choose elf or man. Each race has a defined and different afterlife. Well orcs don't, but hobbits arent orcs. Races are defined by their afterlife. Hobbits die like Men. I guess hobbits aren't Ents either.
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Mar 30, 2013 00:57
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Is there anything about what might happen to Orcs when they die?
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Mar 30, 2013 01:08
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Isn't there something about how Bilbo and Frodo didn't actually go to Valinor, but probably some other place where they chilled with the elves? That's one of those vague things I remember but don't know enough off the top of my head about where to look it up. I thought Valinor was only for the Elves and above and it was pretty much no go for anyone else ever
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Mar 30, 2013 03:36
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Are you thinking of Tol Eressëa?
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Mar 30, 2013 04:13
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Levitate posted:Isn't there something about how Bilbo and Frodo didn't actually go to Valinor, but probably some other place where they chilled with the elves? That's one of those vague things I remember but don't know enough off the top of my head about where to look it up. I thought Valinor was only for the Elves and above and it was pretty much no go for anyone else ever Bilbo and Frodo were granted special dispensation.
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Mar 30, 2013 07:36
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Octy posted:Is there anything about what might happen to Orcs when they die? Tolkien never quite fleshed out it out.
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Mar 30, 2013 07:38
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The Dregs posted:Why do the Elves know so much about healing if they never get sick? You're conflating healing someone who's "injured" and healing someone who's "sick." When you're immortal, injuries are potentially forever, so they learn how to deal with them. And when you're kinda magical, you learn to deal with magical injuries (evil spells, etc.). THAT'S the kind of healing we're talking about. It's not like elves have developed the perfect decongestant.
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Mar 30, 2013 19:02
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So what audiobook version of The Lord of the Rings do you guys prefer the most? I'm asking because I find myself doing work that... really doesn't need me to pay attention to it.
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Mar 30, 2013 22:38
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rypakal posted:One side effect of him going West is that he will actually die faster, which helps to prevent him trying to cling on to life like Gollum and Bilbo had. This is rather the exact oposite of what I took away from traveling west. Folks do not die back west.
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Mar 30, 2013 22:53
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Elves do not die in Valinor. Men do. Can't stop men from dying. Except for Tuor. But that is a special case.
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Mar 30, 2013 22:55
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Don't harsh my mellow. Bilbo and Frodo are there still, chilling with the elves, a full pipe and smoke rings. Damnit.
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Mar 30, 2013 22:58
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nutranurse posted:So what audiobook version of The Lord of the Rings do you guys prefer the most? I'm asking because I find myself doing work that... really doesn't need me to pay attention to it. There is this one done on youtube and its really really great. Sometimes the sound effects can drown out his voice but everything sounds perfect.
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Mar 31, 2013 16:35
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Fog Tripper posted:Don't harsh my mellow. Bilbo and Frodo are there still, chilling with the elves, a full pipe and smoke rings. Damnit. I finally found some textual support for my bald assertions. This passage is the Numenorians talking to the Valar through the Eldar as intermediaries: quote:And they said among themselves: ëWhy do the Lords of the West Sorry for the pdf artifacts.
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Mar 31, 2013 17:28
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