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Trin Tragula posted:No, it's actually the most direct route from Minas Tirith, as well as the path of least resistance. Someone's done an interactive map that I've been referring to, have a look. That's pretty cool Data Graham posted:I don't think it would have occurred to anyone to think of Moria as a path to anywhere, let alone consider it the most direct route. This is true. I was just bringing it up thinking that the Moira path was the fastest but looking at the map it seems not. skasion posted:He took the quickest route available to him, the Greenway, but it’s not very direct, as the land dictates. I don’t think Tolkien anywhere wrote - precise itinerary of Boromir’s journey, just the length overall — 110 days — so it’s hard to say when he got to the vicinity of Rivendell and started seriously looking around. Anyway, the fellowship were on foot for most of the distance to Gondor themselves. I'd guess he got lost at least a few times. Boromir isn't Aragorn. He probably had little idea where he was going beyond what Denethor advised him. Aragorn might have the Fellowship take a longer route than what Boromir tried to do but Aragorn also wouldn't ever get lost traveling that path. Whereas Boromir might take a direct route but get confused and turned around here and there. Look how much trouble Sam and Frodo were having until Gollum came along. Granted, Boromir probably is a little more experienced at traveling than Frodo/Sam but even so, traveling the wilderness is not going to be very straightforward if you don't know what you're doing.
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Sep 19, 2018 20:01
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Ok, now I feel confused. Where exactly did Thorin and his family go while they were in exile, between the Fall of Erebor and the events of the Hobbit?
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Sep 19, 2018 20:07
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Ered Luin
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Sep 19, 2018 20:07
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euphronius posted:Ered Luin Correct. They had a nice mining operation there iirc and were even doing pretty decently wealth-wise. But being Dwarves they never forgot about Smaug and so even though Thorin isn't exactly destitute during the start of the Hobbit he still wants to get his homeland back.
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Sep 19, 2018 20:09
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So Thráin and Thorin with what remained of their following (among whom were Balin and Glóin) returned to Dunland, and soon afterwards they removed and wandered in Eriador, until at last they made a home in exile in the east of the Ered Luin beyond the Lune. Of iron were most of the things that they forged in those days, but they prospered after a fashion, and their numbers slowly increased. 2 But, as Thrór had said, the Ring needed gold to breed gold, and of that or any other precious metal they had little or none.
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Sep 19, 2018 20:11
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euphronius posted:Ered Luin Hokay, thanks, I remembered there was a specific answer but didn't remember what it was anyway, ways the world is disappointing me today, #3,587: Ten years ago whenever I googled a tolkien-related phrase ("Ered Luin") I got a link to glyphweb.com/arda or theonering.net Now the top result is always to the Lord of the Rings Online Wiki quote:Player housing in Ered Luin is provided in two styles:
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Sep 19, 2018 20:11
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There's a reason I have Tolkien Gateway as one of my search engine options in Firefox, alongside Wikipedia and IMDb. Also, cheetah7071 posted:The Fellowship also wasted a month in Lorien A month? I always sort of pictured it as two or three days. This is what I get for not reading closely, or letting childhood impressions go unchallenged.
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Sep 19, 2018 20:40
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There's an explicit conversation where someone (Sam?) comments that it feels like they spent no time in Lorien at all, because the moon is in the same phase when they leave as when they enter. Someone else (Aragorn?) says it's because they spent an entire month there, but it didn't feel like a month because of the timeless feeling of the place.
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Sep 19, 2018 20:41
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cheetah7071 posted:There's an explicit conversation where someone (Sam?) comments that it feels like they spent no time in Lorien at all, because the moon is in the same phase when they leave as when they enter. Someone else (Aragorn?) says it's because they spent an entire month there, but it didn't feel like a month because of the timeless feeling of the place. As ever, I live to pull out precise quotations when someone does this. They're eight days out of Lorien when Sam realises that the Moon's gone wrong. quote:Sam sat tapping the hilt of his sword as if he were counting on his fingers, and looking up at the sky. ‘It’s very strange,’ Gee, thanks. Is your house going to be called Telcontar or Debbie Downer?
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Sep 19, 2018 21:24
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Aragorn spends half the book telling Frodo to shut up about Lore
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Sep 19, 2018 21:25
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As you might expect of a guy whose mother named him “Hope” and whose girlfriend wouldn’t let him smash until he was king of the entire western world, Aragorn is clinically depressed and frequently complains of his own uncertainty and inadequacy.
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Sep 19, 2018 21:36
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euphronius posted:Aragorn spends half the book telling Frodo to shut up about Lore Gandalf too. In the case of the Elven rings though he's right. They've all sworn not to speak of them for fear of Sauron finding out who owns them. It feels like kind of a goofy pact. Surely Sauron strongly suspects that Galadriel and Elrond each have rings. I guess whether Gandalf had a ring or not might be a bit of a mystery to him. One thing I don't get is why Saruman didn't try to take Gandalf's ring from him. He knew about it at some point, because there's a quote in unfinished tales iirc about Saruman becoming aware of the fact that Cirdan gave Gandalf a ring, and that Saruman became jealous of that. So why didn't he take Narya when he had Gandalf captive? My explanation is that because Narya was an Elven ring and therefore about preservation, resistance to fatigue inspiring hope in others, etc, then maybe Saruman didn't care for it. Saruman was trying to become a power and something like Narya might not be too much of an aid in that goal. But the problem there is even if that is the case, Saruman would surely have wanted to take Narya from Gandalf if only to deprive Gandalf of it and simultaneously give a middle finger to Galadriel/Elrond. So...maybe Saruman was so confident in Gandalf coming around to his way of thinking that he didn't bother to try yet? He was at that point fixated purely on the one ring, perhaps even to the point of forgetting about other matters like Gandalf's ring. Or maybe he knew of it but couldn't take it because he lacked the power to be aware of it? When Galadriel shows Frodo her ring, Sam isn't even able to perceive it. He just sees a star near her finger or something like that. Frodo is able to perceive what it is but only because he has born the one ring and gained its powers of influence and awareness to a degree. But I'd think Saruman as a Maiar would have had the...spiritual awareness for lack of a better phrase to be able to perceive Narya and use it. Maybe it can only be seen and borne by those who have been freely given it and/or by the bearer of the One. So I dunno.
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Sep 19, 2018 21:44
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My take is that that unfinished tale remained unfinished for a reason; if saruman knowing about gandalf's ring was important to the final published version of lotr it probably would have come up. Likely it was an idea that was toyed with and discarded
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Sep 19, 2018 21:47
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The elven-rings had powers of concealment, and Gandalf was no slouch and close to Saruman in power even before his apotheosis and without Narya. Saruman was also overconfident and focused on the wrong priorities.
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Sep 19, 2018 21:51
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Ginette Reno posted:Gandalf too. In the case of the Elven rings though he's right. They've all sworn not to speak of them for fear of Sauron finding out who owns them. Regardless Saruman would have told him if he didn’t know.
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Sep 19, 2018 22:05
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Saruman explicitly wants to rob Sauron and take the One for himself, hence everything e does in Fellowship, and that means that taking any of the other rings of power is a bad idea. If Sauron beats him to the punch and gets the ring back then having an elven ring will lay his will open to that of the ring-lord. Even if he doesn’t get the ring back, wearing a ring will require a mental struggle with Sauron, like that which Galadriel describes, to keep himself from Sauron’s influence. More than that, Saruman very likely had his own ring of power which he had made and which he actively wore. Read the bit at the council where Gandalf describes their confrontation at Isengard: quote:“But I rode to the foot of Orthanc, and came to the stair of Saruman; and there he met me and led me up to his high chamber. He wore a ring on his finger.” Just to tide himself over till he got his hands on the One, I guess.
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Sep 19, 2018 22:13
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Ginette Reno posted:I'd guess he got lost at least a few times. Boromir isn't Aragorn. He probably had little idea where he was going beyond what Denethor advised him. Aragorn might have the Fellowship take a longer route than what Boromir tried to do but Aragorn also wouldn't ever get lost traveling that path. Whereas Boromir might take a direct route but get confused and turned around here and there. Look how much trouble Sam and Frodo were having until Gollum came along. Granted, Boromir probably is a little more experienced at traveling than Frodo/Sam but even so, traveling the wilderness is not going to be very straightforward if you don't know what you're doing. He lost his horse fording the Greyflood at Tharbad, though I can't remember offhand if we're told that in LotR or Unfinished Tales.
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Sep 19, 2018 22:21
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It’s the former. Searching that found me something I had totally forgotten, Boromir’s own account of his trip from Minas Tirith to Galadriel and Celeborn:quote:”I have myself been at whiles in Rohan, but I have never crossed it northwards. When I was sent out as a messenger, I passed through the Gap by the skirts of the White Mountains, and crossed the Isen and the Greyflood into Northerland. A long and wearisome journey. Four hundred leagues I reckoned it, and it took me many months; for I lost my horse at Tharbad, at the fording of the Greyflood. After that journey, and the road I have trodden with this Company, I do not much doubt that I shall find a way through Rohan, and Fangorn too, if need be.” This also reminds me that Theoden actually laments Boromir after Gandalf disenchants him: reasonable enough, since Boromir must have passed through Edoras and is after all some kind of distant cousin of Theoden’s through their mothers’ family, the House of Dol Amroth. skasion fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Sep 19, 2018 |
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Sep 19, 2018 22:27
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skasion posted:Saruman explicitly wants to rob Sauron and take the One for himself, hence everything e does in Fellowship, and that means that taking any of the other rings of power is a bad idea. If Sauron beats him to the punch and gets the ring back then having an elven ring will lay his will open to that of the ring-lord. Even if he doesn’t get the ring back, wearing a ring will require a mental struggle with Sauron, like that which Galadriel describes, to keep himself from Sauron’s influence. That's a good point. But still doesn't entirely answer why he wouldn't just take it from Gandalf and fling it into a ravine out of spite or something. Or even deliver it directly to Sauron as proof of loyalty. Therefore I'll have to assume that: Hieronymous Alloy posted:The elven-rings had powers of concealment, and Gandalf was no slouch and close to Saruman in power even before his apotheosis and without Narya. Saruman was also overconfident and focused on the wrong priorities. Can't take what you don't know Gandalf has I suppose.
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Sep 19, 2018 22:38
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The possibility of Gandalf still wearing a ring when Saruman takes the One and becomes ringlord would, I think, appeal profoundly to Saruman. Call it hubris. Alternative, boring rear end answer: the idea of Gandalf having a ring is a compositional anachronism that wouldn’t enter in till years after the passage was written and was subsequently missed in revision.
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Sep 19, 2018 22:44
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skasion posted:The possibility of Gandalf still wearing a ring when Saruman takes the One and becomes ringlord would, I think, appeal profoundly to Saruman. Call it hubris. That's true. I could see Saruman wanting to torture Gandalf by ruling over him with the One.
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Sep 19, 2018 22:50
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Wizard battle in the movies.  or 
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Sep 19, 2018 22:53
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skasion posted:
I'd doubt that without supporting documentation. There are too many different points of reference of Gandalf as an especial expert with fire.
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Sep 19, 2018 22:53
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I mean those date back to the Hobbit when the idea of rings of power didn't even exist. Gandalf was a fire master before he was a ringbearer. He might be a fire user due to Narya in the final version but it can still result in compositional anachronisms
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Sep 19, 2018 22:55
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I'd doubt that without supporting documentation. There are too many different points of reference of Gandalf as an especial expert with fire. I don't know if Tolkien originally envisioned that as being tied to Narya. When he wrote The Hobbit he didn't even have all the ring lore decided, did he? It was most likely at some point added as an explanation for Gandalf's affinity for flame although given Saruman naturally has powers of persuasion and Sauron can shapeshift etc it stands to reason that most Maiar have innate abilities to do certain supernatural things anyways with those things varying depending on the Maiar.
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Sep 19, 2018 22:57
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cheetah7071 posted:I mean those date back to the Hobbit when the idea of rings of power didn't even exist. Gandalf was a fire master before he was a ringbearer. He might be a fire user due to Narya in the final version but it can still result in compositional anachronisms Sure, yeah, but the numerous references and passing implications (Gandalf's inspiring of everyone's spirit during the Seige of Minas Tirith, etc.) speak to a general level of attention to detail on that point. I don't think Gandalf's Ring-bearing was something Tolkien forgot about.
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Sep 19, 2018 22:59
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Ginette Reno posted:I don't know if Tolkien originally envisioned that as being tied to Narya. When he wrote The Hobbit he didn't even have all the ring lore decided, did he? The hobbit wasn’t even part of The Silmarilion world when he wrote it.
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Sep 19, 2018 23:00
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euphronius posted:The hobbit wasn’t even part of The Silmarilion world when he wrote it. ~ish. It still had references to the larger cosmology (Glamdring and Orcrist).
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Sep 19, 2018 23:02
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They were recycled in. For example the Arkenstone is a Silmaril and Mirkwood is Doriath. He didn’t make the decision to set the stories in the Silmarillion world until he was writing LOTR and got to Weathertop when Aragorn tells some stories.
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Sep 19, 2018 23:08
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Gandalf’s sword really isn’t from Gondolin. That’s ridiculous.
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Sep 19, 2018 23:09
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Aragorn's summary of Beren and Luthien is interesting to me because it's presumably what Tolkien considered to be the important parts of the story but it's pretty wildly different from the parts I care about--Aragorn doesn't mention the magic talking dog even once
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Sep 19, 2018 23:11
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I'd doubt that without supporting documentation. There are too many different points of reference of Gandalf as an especial expert with fire. Gandalf’s expertise with fire and fireworks dates back to the earliest versions of The Hobbit, at which point neither the One nor the elven-rings nor the notion of a Ring of Fire specifically had ever entered Tolkien’s mind. Indeed his earliest conception was of elven rings of “earth, sea and sky” (Return of the Shadow p. 269 my copy). Galadriel’s ring was in the first version of her chapters the Ring of Earth — I mention this only to point out that the conception didn’t involve a ring of fire at a time after the writing of the Council of Elrond (Treason of Isengard p. 252). So far as I am aware no mention is made of Gandalf having an elvish ring until the drafting of “The Grey Havens” (Sauron Defeated p. 109) and even then the idea that it is specifically a red ring or ring of fire doesn’t immediately come to the fore. This is in fact the only place I can think of in the published text of LOTR that refers to Gandalf’s ring at all, or for that matter Elrond’s.
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Sep 19, 2018 23:19
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euphronius posted:They were recycled in. For example the Arkenstone is a Silmaril and Mirkwood is Doriath. He didn’t make the decision to set the stories in the Silmarillion world until he was writing LOTR and got to Weathertop when Aragorn tells some stories. euphronius posted:Gandalf’s sword really isn’t from Gondolin. That’s ridiculous. It's tempting to draw a clear line of inclusion at Weathertop but I think that's a much more binary description of the decision than is really merited. That's when it became conscious and overt, sure, but if on some level he hadn't been planning it that way all along, it never would have worked. It all fits together with relatively few seams because he was writing it that way long before already.
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Sep 19, 2018 23:24
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That’s fair.
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Sep 19, 2018 23:31
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euphronius posted:Gandalf’s sword really isn’t from Gondolin. That’s ridiculous. why would gandalf lie about it
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Sep 19, 2018 23:53
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:It's tempting to draw a clear line of inclusion at Weathertop but I think that's a much more binary description of the decision than is really merited. That's when it became conscious and overt, sure, but if on some level he hadn't been planning it that way all along, it never would have worked. It all fits together with relatively few seams because he was writing it that way long before already. Or rather, it doesn't all fit together because there was by no means a single unified "Silmarillion" in perfect agreement with itself when he wrote LOTR, or, for that matter, at any point. The obvious antidote to the assumption that the tale of Tinuviel suddenly irrevocably changes everything is motherfucking Glorfindel, who simply and impossibly appears almost immediately after that passage when Tolkien knows drat well that he should be dead in a pit somewhere! Of course he would then go on to tie himself in knots making consistency out of this after it was published, culminating in enormous discourses between the gods that he wrote to flesh out his own personal opinion on whether elves could reincarnate or whatever. Flipping through Treason of Isengard makes it clear that Tolkien was, while writing LOTR, actively experimenting with a number of ways in which it could be tied to the older material: for example the idea of the elven-rings being linked to Earth (later Fire), Sea, and Sky, paralleling the fates of the three Silmarils as per the Annals of Beleriand at that time, came in at a time when Tolkien was attempting to explain the Rings as having been made by Feanor and stolen away to Middle-earth by Melkor, who had made the One – that is to say, they completely usurped the Silmarils right out of the Silmarillion. skasion fucked around with this message at 23:58 on Sep 19, 2018 |
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Sep 19, 2018 23:55
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WoodrowSkillson posted:why would gandalf lie about it He isn’t but that wasn’t the same Gondolin as it would become later. Or earlier. Or retconned from a previous unpublished story. The sword isn’t from a first age Beleriand city sacked by Balrogs. That’s ridiculous.
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Sep 20, 2018 00:59
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Gandalf got Glamdring centuries ago from a much more sensible source and every time he needs to impress a new set of adventurers he "finds" it again along with some other Gondolin goodies to hand out
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Sep 20, 2018 01:01
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euphronius posted:He isn’t but that wasn’t the same Gondolin as it would become later. Or earlier. Or retconned from a previous unpublished story. Look, they just rolled 100 on the loot table
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Sep 20, 2018 01:01
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Gondolin had a thriving sweatshop industry dedicated to making decorative swords for export to the lower classes in the East.
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Sep 20, 2018 01:30
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