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I finally finished the LOTR books.' I'd say Two Towers => Return of the King >>> Fellowship. Fellowship is really held down, in my view, because of everything pr-Council of Elrond. I think Frodo and Saruman were my favorite characters. The movies really did a disservice to the latter as it only got the superficial aspects of his character right. He had more depth than his fellow Maiar Sauon and his fall to evil and then finally his actual fall when he died were both very tragic and I can easily empathize with him. To repent and admit you're wrong is hard to do even when you're just arguing with a person on the internet so I can only imagine how difficult it must have been to admit he was wrong in such a major way to Gandalf. I seriously hope the general interpretation that he wandered Middle-earth as a powerless spirit like Sauron is wrong. His crimes were far less than any of the other Dark Lords and they were all forgiven at one point or another. He also only turned to evil due to his desire to combat Sauron and then finally when Sauron mindfucked him through the Stone of Orthanc. Speaking of levels of evil though, I have always hated Feanor and found him the most despicable villain in all of Arda.
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Jul 5, 2013 23:57
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Data Graham posted:You read the Silmarillion before LotR? That's an unusual path to take. But cool! I just like the sheer vastness of the scale in The Silmarillion. The stuff before and during the First Age was of cosmic significance and a lot more captivated than the relatively mundane events of LOTR. Plus, like I said, the beginning of Fellowship was just so boring to me. Levitate posted:Saruman was always a proud prick even before Sauron corrupted him. He was jealous of Gandalf and his whole character is kind of setup to be the proud self important rear end in a top hat who falls to evil in large part because of his character flaws. Not saying he's the worst villain in the books or something or deserves a fate worse than others, but I don't really agree with him as the sympathetic character you're casting him as Well who you find sympathetic is largely in the eye of the beholder wouldn't you say? Take Maeglin from The Silmarillion for example. The narrative paints a very ugly picture of him - "the only Elf who ever served Morgoth" and all that - but the dude was ruled by a tyrannical father who tried to murder him. He then turned to evil only because he was tortured by Melkor. THe great hero Hurin was not in much better shape after Melkor was through with him and he did not possess the vices Maeglin did. Yes, Maeglin was envious and yes he wanted his cousin but like Saruman,these things alone did not make him evil. Outside forces worked on both of them and made them fall to the dark side. Saruman in particular did legitimately work towards the downfall of Sauron and the only way he thought this possible was through the Ring. Gandalf's gambit with Frodo had a 1/100000000 chance of working. The fact is, no being on Middle-earth could even throw the Ring in Mt. Doom The Ring was too strong and would have stopped anyone from destroying it. And so Saruman took what seemed the only viable option - master the Ring and you master Sauron and remove his threat forever. Let me put it in another light. A lot of the heroes in LOTR and The Silmarillion, especially the Elves in the former, are unrelatable. They are paragons of virtue and beauty and wisdom and blah blah blah. I naturally favor a character with flaws that I can relate to. I understand envy and pride very well.
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Jul 6, 2013 05:28
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I don't think I ever said he was redeemed. But he did consider repenting to Gandalf in "The Voice of Saruman." But listen, Saruman, for the last time! Will you not come down? Isengard has proved less strong than your hope and fancy made it. So may other things in which you still have trust. Would it not be well to leave it for a while? To turn to new things, perhaps? Think well, Saruman! Will you not come down? ' A shadow passed over Saruman's face; then it went deathly white. Before he could conceal it, they saw through the mask the anguish of a mind in doubt, loathing to stay and dreading to leave its refuge. For a second he hesitated, and no one breathed. Then he spoke, and his voice was shrill and cold. Pride and hate were conquering him. Have you not ever had a heated argument with someone wherein you were proven wrong but your pride kept you from admitting so? Flaming on the internet has always struck me as really stupid because the person you're arguing with will argue ten times as long as he would have done normally if his ego feels threatened. If you call him a retard or a fool then he will refuse to yield because yielding is tantamount to admitting you are right and that he is a retard and a fool. Saruman's mistakes are immeasurably bigger than any internet debate. As such the courage to admit his folly is also immeasurably bigger. He was never the bravest fellow around and at the last second he choked and couldn't go through with it. He was a mental wreck by "The Scouring of the Shire" but he still showed some pity to Frodo and all he had endured. Saruman rose to his feet, and stared at Frodo. There was a strange look in his eyes of mingled wonder and respect and hatred. 'You have grown, Halfling,' he said. 'Yes, you have grown very much. You are wise, and cruel. you have robbed my revenge of sweetness, and now I must go hence in bitterness, in debt to your mercy. I hate it and you! Well, I go and I will trouble you no more. But do not expect me to wish you health and long life. You will have neither. But that is not my doing. I merely foretell.” Saruman was not a being of malice and enmity like Morgoth or Sauron. He was just...weak and pitiable in that weakness. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Jul 6, 2013 |
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Jul 6, 2013 19:59
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If anyone wants to know what is in Unfinished Tales http://www.ae-lib.org.ua/texts-c/tolkien__unfinished_tales__en.htm Personally I love it for the section on The Istari. It's an invaluable resource for anyone who loves Saruman and he is by far my favorite Tolkien villain. It gives interesting facts that held settle debates such as Sauron vs. Saruman (it was at least kinda arguable based just on the books but UT kinda says point blank Sauron was "mighter than [Saruman]" and it also offers some insight into Saruman's charactr, such as the fact he was constantly being undermined by Gandalf. Varda herself said Olorin (Ganalf) did not go after Saruman, then Gandalf was given the Ring of Fire instead of Saruman, and then Galadriel wanted Gandalf to be head of the White Council. You can see why he was so jealous of the Grey Pilgrim. I loved this alternate take too: quote:In this account, Saruman, in fear and despair, and perceiving the full horror of service to Mordor, resolved suddenly to yield to Gandalf, and to beg for his pardon and help. Temporizing at the Gate, he admitted that he had Gandalf within, and said that he would go and try to discover what he knew; if that were unavailing, he would deliver Gandalf up to them. Then Saruman hastened to the summit of Orthanc - and found Gandalf gone. Away south against the setting moon he saw a great Eagle flying towards Edoras. I like to imagine this is canon. Sorry to gush but Saruman to my eyes is the most three-dimensional antagonist Tolkien ever wrote. I love him so much. (and hate what the movies did to him by making him just Sauron's toady)
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Jan 31, 2014 05:12
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Radio! posted:Also, goddamn, Aulë must have had some poo poo taste in people to have had both Sauron and Saruman as his household Maiar. I believe The Silmarillion states quite clearly that of all the other Valar, Aule was the one most like Melkor. He was certainly the only one who defied Eru's will(the creation of the Dwarves). I think Tolkien is trying to draw some sort of theme with creativity and genius leading to pride, arrogance and impatience. Aule was impatient so he made the Dwarvs. Sauron was impatient so he first fell to Melkor who appeared to have all the power in the world to order things to his will. Saruman is noted in one of Tolkien's letters to have fallen because the way he was incarnated led him (and the other Wuzarrds) to experience the weariness of age just like any mortal being. With time he grew tired of simply standing back and guiding others in what was clearly a hopeless endeavor (there was no defeating Sauron through force of arms) and came to think the only way to stop Sauron once and for all was to personally claim the Ring and challenge him. Sauron and Saruman are very much alike and their falls are almost identical. Consider also Feanor, the greatest creative genius in history and how his own pride mastered him just as completely as Sauron's and Saruman's. (I really hate Feanor. I consider him just as vile as any of the Dark Lords, and without any of their initial redeeming qualities) NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 12:04 on Jan 31, 2014 |
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Jan 31, 2014 11:32
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Well it's like I said in my earlier post, Saruman is probably the most three-dimensional villain Tolkien ever wrote. There is no one thing that made him fall. He was always prideful and envious as you noted about the incident in Valinor, but then there were other things that effected him once in Middle-earth. He was after all a dutiful opponent of Sauron for many centuries. His study of Sauron's ring-lore is noted by both Elrond and in The Silmarillion to have been a big influence on his falling to evil:Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age posted:Saruman had turned to dark thoughts, having studied too long the works of Sauron and beginning to think of him as a rival rather than an enemy. He desired the One Ring for its power to order the world to his liking Finally his corruption was complete when he looked into the palantir and Sauron's will overpowered his. One other interesting thing about UT is how much it goes into detail about Saruman's jealousy of Gandalf. He was spying on him nonstop for quite a while it seems and indeed, his watching Gandalf was both pragmatic and yet entirely pointless. He was doing it to be a snoop as much as to possibly hear of the Ring. Saruman was a very small and petty man in the end and that is why i sympathize with him more than Sauron or Melkor, who both fell to much greater wickedness than Saruman ever managed. It's kind of a shame he will always be seen as "Sauron-lite" when he is a far more fleshed out character than Sauron in terms of depth or development. He's also often made fun of simply because he never achieved much when compared to the Dark Lords he aspired to be. But therein lies the difference between Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion. The Sil is all about the mightiest of the mighty and LOTR is about humility and the underdog. Saruman being a failed tyrant is crucial to the story's tone I think. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Jan 31, 2014 |
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Jan 31, 2014 23:38
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So who do you guys prefer as a Dark Lord/Villain - Morgoth or Sauron? Tolkien's view of Morgoth vs. Sauron I like Sauron well enough but I have always preferred Melkor. I read The Sil before LOTR and in many wyas Morgoth is the most important character in The Sil. His "fall" is so much more detailed than Sauron's is. I in fact came to pity him and my pity only grew when reading Tolkien's idea of him. The difference between Sauron and Morgoth is the difference between wanting the possible and he impossible you might say. Sauron could have easily conquered Middle-earth if not for dumb luck/Providence. Morgoth though could never have achieved his dream. All the way from before the beginning of Creation to his final days he was longing for a dream that he could never realize. When thinking about all this, I also recalled a quote from The Sil that I feel perfectly encapsulates the character of Melkor/Morgoth: "In Angband Morgoth forged himself a great crown of iron, and he called himself King of the World. In token of this he set the Silmarils in his crown. His hands were burned black by the touch of those hallowed jewels, and black they remained ever after; nor was he ever free from the pain of the burning, and the anger of the pain. That crown he never took from his head, though its weight became a deadly weariness." This has always been one of my favorite quotes in the series. Others might ask "what was the point of all this? He chose to live in perpetual agony because of some gems? And he will never ever remove a crown no matter how much it ails him?" But that, in essence, is Morgoth. Foolish and stupid these things seem to us and hardly any of it is practical. Sauron at the least was much more pragmatic than his master. But Morgoth wanted all and he would have all, even if it destroyed him.
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Jul 6, 2014 23:58
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I honestly found Feanor more despicable than either Dark Lord or Saruman or any other villain. And I've had people try to tell me he wasn't a villain. Even as they say "oh sure, he attacked his fellow elves and murdered them to steal their stuff but it's just because he was a spirti of fire and stuff!" Honestly Feanor caused as much death as the Dark Lords. Or, at the very least, he caused more death than anyone besides them. SHISHKABOB posted:Yes but why did he become an rear end in a top hat. The Silmarillion is Biblical almost in its Omniscient Morality. God committed genocide on the Numenoreans and not just the ones attacking the Undying Lands. There were probably helpless women and children on the island when he saw fit to crush it. What's more, Manwe, Melkor's brother, is described as not even comprehending selfishness or evil. Therefore how can he be "Good' compared to Melkor who obviously could think more wholly? Manwe isn't Good - he's a robot, programmed to act a certain way. Personally the line earlier about how Eru said everything came back to him no matter what you do or thought struck me as him saying 'Evil" is a force for good in the end. No matter how much carnage Melkor and Sauron did, they were ultimately doing Eru's Will. As such, how is it even their fault? Also consider this quote quote:There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Ilúvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought Could you not interpret that as Melkor embodying Eru's own Pride? But...yeah, this gets into heavy Nature of Evil and Free Will and God and all sorts of sticky things we have no answer for. But as much as I love The Sil I just can't agree with its presentation and the morality it conveys. My personal thought about why Melkor turned to evil though is exactly what Tolkien said - he went mad with longing. Is it not the son's most natural inclination to emulate the father? Or even to surpass said father? Melkor is Eru's "son" as it were and he wanted desperately to be his own master just like his dad. But it was impossible. Eventually he just came to resent everything. When the Vala first come to Arda they try to build stuff and Melkor just wrecks all of it out of spite. His quest for creation had turned to a quest for annihilation. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Jul 8, 2014 |
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Jul 8, 2014 23:30
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Aule is indeed said to be the most like Melkor in thought and what's also interesting to note is that the other two most important traitorous Ainur - Sauron and Saruman - were specifically said to be Maia of Aule. My guess is Tolkien was trying to say something there but I'm not sure what. Perhaps something about the nature of creation... In the act of making something you tend to feel like you have dominion over it and are thus your own master or even god. (Sauron was worshiped as one in the Third Age) And I'm not trying to portray Melkor as a complete victim here. He killed and tortured Eru knows how many people and creatures. If I had to serve under any Dark lord I'd rather it be Sauron than Morgoth. I just feel pity for Morgoth because he had an impossible wish from the very beginning. EDIT: I forgot we've been over all this before in this thread. http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3532243&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=9#post425148441 An excellent post with a quote from Tolkien on the whole creativity thing. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 02:20 on Jul 9, 2014 |
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Jul 9, 2014 01:12
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The bizarre (and interesting) thing about Tolkien's Legendarium is it blends his Catholicism with other things. The Silmarillion is very much about the greatest of the great, the strongest of the strong and so-on, all decked out in fabulously amazing gems and robes and everything else you could imagine. It's a tale of the best Men and Elves and Dwarves ever to exist and their glorious battles and defeats. From what I understand and have been told by people smarter than I is all to do with the concept of "Fey." quote:the word "fey" in this instance, a concept (O.E. faege) that is an outcome of "weird" or fate, that an Anglo-Saxon warrior like Beowulf would certainly understand. To become fey is to foresee one's own death and against all counsel seek that death, usually in battle against impossible odds, and die gloriously. (I was told this was a decidedly un-Christian idea) Fingolfin was "fey" when he challenged Morgoth for example. Now some people I've talked to say Fingolfin was foolish and perhaps even suicidal to do this but it isn't supposed to make logical sense. The entire fight of the Noldor was just as hopeless as Fingolfin's single combat with Morgoth but we're supposed to revere them and sing their praises. (not that I'm saying we shouldn't - Fingolfin was awesome) Interestingly, Tolkien put a spin on the Noldor's battle that made it not completely in vain: "If we consider the situation after the escape of Morgoth and the reëstablishment of his abode in Middle-earth, we shall see that the heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually beseiged, and at any rate fully occupied, on the northern fringe of Middle-earth, without provoking him to a frenzy of nihilistic destruction. And in the meanwhile, Men, or the best elements of Mankind, shaking off his shadow, came into contact with a people who had actually seen and experienced the Blessed Realm" Had Melkor not been distracted for an Age he might have spiraled completely out-of-control and just wrecked everything he could. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 06:34 on Jul 11, 2014 |
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Jul 11, 2014 06:29
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I loved Rob Inglis. He was a fantastic Saruman. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jz5WVmpvYp0
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Aug 3, 2014 18:16
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That's true and there are many more songs to come. I think, I could be misremembering, that Fellowship is the "worst" in terms of songs. There's one or two in TTT and I don't recall any in ROTK. I might be entirely wrong though. Glad you like him though. I can't see that well so reading stuff as long as LOTR is just not reasonable for me. As such, the audiobooks were a godsend.
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Aug 4, 2014 01:28
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I don't think there was anything wrong with Movie Boromir. Fellowship was easily the best adaptation.SirPhoebos posted:So, if the Wizards were present throughout the Third Age...why didn't Saruman just dredge the river to find the Ring? Saruman didn't just come to Middle-earth, cackle and say "I gotta find that ring and enslave everyone!" Saruman is the best Tolkien villain in my view because his corruptiona nd "fall" is the most detailed and believable of any bad guy in LOTR or The Silmarillion. From Tolkien Letter 181: His [Gandalf’s – but also all of the wizards] function as a ‘wizard’ is an angelos or messenger from the Valar or Rulers: to assist the rational creatures of Middle-earth to resist Sauron, a power too great for them unaided. But since, in the view of the tale & mythology, Power – when it dominates or seeks to dominate other wills and minds (except by the assent of their reason) – is evil, these ‘wizards’ were incarnated in the life-forms of Middle-earth, and so suffered the pains both of mind and body.” “They were also, for the same reason, thus involved in the peril of the incarnate: the possibility of ‘fall’, of sin, if you will. The chief form this would take with them would be impatience, leading to the desire to force others to their own good ends, and so inevitably at last to mere desire to make their own wills effective by any means.” From Unfinished Tales, The Istari: For it is said indeed that being embodied the Istari had needs to learn much anew by slow experience, and though they knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which (so long as they remained true to their mission) they yearned exceedingly. Thus by enduring of free will the pangs of exile and the deceits of Sauron they might redress the evils of that time. Saruman's corruption was not an overnight process. It was a slow, creeping and insidious thing just like how evil is in real life. A multitude of factors came together to slowly drive Saruman closer and closer to the edge . There was Saruman's jealousy of Gandalf, his increasing belief nothing but the Ring could stop Sauron, the weakness of being Incarnate... Mostly I was just quoting this to show that Saruman when he arrived, didn't really know much of anything. He had to spent several of those centuries just regaining what had been lost. Sorry, I just really like his character and reading Tolkien supplementary material is just as fascinating as reading the books themselves.
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Feb 6, 2015 23:20
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The only part of The Silmarillion that could possibly make a good movie is the story of Turin. It was easily the most "personal" story in The Sil as it chronicled more of his life and his feelings than any other character. Probably why Tolkien also went and wrote The Children of Hurin. But thank God Chris Tolkien is alive to prevent that from happening. I was curious, can he put a stipulation in his will or something that whoever gets the rights to The Silmarillion after his death cannot ever sell them to filmmakers?
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May 2, 2015 08:31
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As far as I know, Tolkien's commentary on Melkor's "self-awareness" amounts to the fact Morgoth was pragmatic enough to realize how much weaker he had become. He stayed iN Angband and let everyone else fight because he understood how uniquely vulnerable he had made himself when compared to the other Vala.quote:Sauron was "greater", effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First. Why? Because, though he was far smaller by natural stature, he had not yet fallen so low. Eventually he also squandered his power (of being) in the endeavour to gain control of others. But he was not obliged to expend so much of himself. To gain domination over Arda, Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth — hence all things that were born on Earth, and lived on and by it, beasts or plants or incarnate spirits, were liable to be "stained". Morgoth at the time of the War of the Jewels had become permanently "incarnate"; for this reason he was afraid, and waged the war almost entirely by means of devices, or of subordinates and dominated creatures. Melkor's psychology is one of the best things about The Silmarillion. This has always been one of my favorite passages: "In Angband Morgoth forged himself a great crown of iron, and he called himself King of the World. In token of this he set the Silmarils in his crown. His hands were burned black by the touch of those hallowed jewels, and black they remained ever after; nor was he ever free from the pain of the burning, and the anger of the pain. That crown he never took from his head, though its weight became a deadly weariness." Others might ask "what was the point of all this? He chose to live in perpetual agony because of some gems? And he will never eve remove a crown no matter how much it hurts him?" But that, in essence, is Morgoth. These things might seem foolish and stupid to us, but not to He Who Arises in Might. Morgoth can be summed up as "I will have everything, even if it destroys me." This might be helpful. Morgoth's lust for domination, and then destruction, probably made it so he never truly regretted squandering all that power. It was spent in his mad frenzy to bring all things in this world under his power and, as such, was a price worth paying. Of course, never forget that by the First Age Melkor was entirely mad and insane. He probably didn't have the best opinion of anything, least of all in terms of matters regarding himself. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 21:45 on Jul 2, 2015 |
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Jul 2, 2015 21:41
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Fellowship was the only real hindrance for me. It beat me several times but once I got over that hump, I had a great time for the next two books.
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Jul 21, 2015 22:06
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I like Bombadil but far as I'm concerned, Council of Elrond is when the book really begins. Then again, Saruman is my favorite LOTR character.
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Jul 22, 2015 09:04
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Thunder Moose posted:Not sure I would say overpowered - but they didn't really explain to the audience what was going on so I remember a few of my friends asking "what was up with that bi-polar magical elf lady?" after the showing. A lot of this is because The One Ring is not your typical doomsday plot device. It's not showy, it's not flashy, it does not immediately make you a badass who can wave his hand and destroy armies. As a literal embodiment of Sin, the most deadly thing about it is how insidiously unassuming it is. It's just a little ring, nothing to get worked up about. This subtlety does not come across well in the film medium. I can't count how the number of times over the years where I've read people cracking jokes about how "useless" the One Ring is. "All it does is make you invisible!" How many times have we all heard that one? NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 07:46 on Jul 23, 2015 |
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Jul 23, 2015 07:44
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Probably a design decision to make them seem more otherworldly. That was definitely a feature in the books but our imagination is what really makes them seem that way. In film, you'd have to do something different hence the more "wise" attitude they adopt. Not that the elves in LOTR had any loving personality anyway. If you want good, three-dimensional elves, your only choice is The Silmarillion. It's why I was able to read The Sil years before I could make it through the trilogy. Also while it's an unpopular characterization choice, I feel Jackson's Jerkass Elrond works. Here these fuckers are, can float away in their boats to what is literally heaven on Earth, any time they drat well please. Men and Hobbits and dwarves and every other race of Middle-earth? Left to the mercy of Sauron. "Our people are leaving these shores" indeed.
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Jul 23, 2015 20:28
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Of course, Saruman's forces never posed any real threat to Sauron. Saruman's only hope was the One Ring. For Sauron meanwhile, it was a win-win scenario with Saruman's betrayal of the Free People. He kept Sauron's enemies divided and distracted and should he actually defeat Rohan or whatever, and get too uppity, it wouldn't take much to knock him back down. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 17:12 on Jul 26, 2015 |
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Jul 26, 2015 17:10
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So I got a question for you good folks. Do you hate Feanor as much as I do? Because I've encountered a ton of people who honest to Eru defend him and I can't fathom why. It's not even that they're like "yep, he's evil, but I think he's a good character." They outright deny the fact he was a villain who got tons of innocent elves killed for his own vanity. He didn't care about avenging his father, he just wanted his shiny jewels back. If he gave one poo poo about his dad, he wouldn't have left his father's son (Fingolfin) to die or some other horrible fate. I honestly hate Feanor more than I ever hated the Dark Lords. I never once felt any sympathy for him and then he just became outright evil pretty fast.
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Aug 1, 2015 23:15
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Sauron of course originally had more noble intentions. He did sincerely repent at the start of the Second Age. He wanted to try and help rebuild the shattered wreck that was Middle-earth after the Vala Host and Morgoth's forces were done with it. I don't recall Feanor ever doing something even vaguely noble, or having noble goals. He is directly responsible for every Noldor that dies in the fruitless war against Morgoth. He did this by openly lying to all of them in order to have a nice army of meat shields to get to his pretty jewels. And his Oath outlives him, causing even more suffering after he dies. The only reason Fearnor never did as much harm as either of Morgoth or Sauron is because he was stopped early. He's rather like Saruman in that regard. I would say Fearnor is just as prideful as any of the others except maybe Morgoth at his most insane.
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Aug 2, 2015 01:53
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You're kind of proving the point ehre about how evil Feanor is. Aule was the Valar most like Melkor and it was two of his servants that fell and became the most prominent evil Maia in the Legendarium. That is clearly intentional on Tolkien's part. There is only one true Creator and that is Eru. As Eru himself told Melkor, everything that ever exists does so according to His will. Even if you think you are defying Eru, you're still only doing what He wants. Yet, in the act of Creation, you become your own god of a sorts. This is a theme very prevalent in sci-fi but it works just as well in fantasy, as expressed here. Feanor and Sauron and Saruman felt they should be beholden to no one but themselves. Why is this? Because they are their own gods through their act of creation. Only they're not. It's a self-deception born of pride and arrogance but none of them ever realized this because what they had in Intelligence they lacked in Wisdom. (a contrast drawn between Saruman the Intelligent and Gandalf the Wise)
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Aug 2, 2015 02:10
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Gologle posted:Yes, Feanor made the Silmarils, but what he made them from is something that belongs to everybody, and the radiance they possess within them comes from that all encompassing light. And how did Feanor save everybody? The Trees weren't essential to life or anything, the Sun and the Moon did an adequate job of replacing them, and in the end, the Noldor lost the war against Morgoth. The Valar Host had to sweep in and beat Morgoth. If they had just let the Valar sort things out to begin with, all of that strife and tragedy never would have happened. It's the Silmarils that play the role in remaking the world as whole in the end, and if Feanor had cooled his jets, not been a dick, the Silmarils might have been recovered faster, or maybe not even have been lost at all to Morgoth. Not to mention that, by his evil deeds, Feanor forsook any claim he had to the Silmarils.We see this when his sons finally get their hands on one or two of them and they can't hold them because the hallowed jewels will not abide evil. Note that the Silmarils had only ever burned Morgoth himself and his evil hound, Carcaroth. (at least that is what I recall) So, congrats Fearnor, that's the kind of company you are comparable to.
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Aug 2, 2015 15:31
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It's true that the Vala are pretty stupid. From what I've read, a lot of this comes from Tolkien drawing on other mythologies a lot. The Vala are supposed to be Greek style rear end in a top hat deities, just as flawed as you or I. Then he changed his mind and so the narrative doesn't paint them this way. The narrative constantly goes on about how pure Manwe is, about how glorious and majestic the Vala are, even as they persist in being stupid. How hard would it have been to drag Sauron back to Valinor as opposed to just leaving him in Middle-earth? Or even to get off their fancy golden thrones and go see Numenor and remind them that "hey! WE'RE ALL POWERFUL GODS! DON'T ATTACK US OR YOUR ENTIRE PEOPLE, WOMEN AND CHILDREN INCLUDED, WILL BE EXTERMINATED." But nope, too much effort. Best just to sit around until Melkor has killed all the Noldor and then when the Numenors finally have been driven to the point of madness by the guy you let loose justto call on some Old Testament style wrath to deal with a situation that could have been easily remedied.
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Aug 2, 2015 18:55
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Friar John posted:The War of Wrath against Morgoth destroyed Beleriand. The Host of the Valar against Sauron would have devastated, if not outright broken, Middle-Earth. The Valar did what they could to help the mortals in their long fight, but he could not command them if they didn't want to obey. Manwe sent the Wizards to aid those still in M-E, but if you're not mad that the first thing they did wasn't march up to Barad-dur and make a laser light show, why be mad at Manwe for exercising his authority in subtler ways than mere battle? The Vala made the right call with the Istari but my post you quoted was referring to the end of the First Age.. The War of the Ring and the destruction of Numenor never would have come about if the Host of the Valar had taken prisoner Morgoth's second-in-command. Sauron was, as I recall it, literally brought before Eonwe, who was potentially the strongest of his kind ever. Forget the armies, Eowne himself could have literally dragged Sauron back to Valinor. But no, they chose to leave Sauron - again SECOND-IN-COMMAND to the guy they fought this whole war in order to capture - free to reign in Middle-earth. And look what happened. And forget what harm he could have caused in future, he was already guilty of a million and one crimes by this point. THere was zero reason not to take him captive and have him face judgment.
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Aug 2, 2015 19:49
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I'm not disputing Sauron's abilities or intellect. He's very intelligent and very capable. One of the best parts of LOTR is finding out just all the ways he rigged the game in his favor. But why wouldn't Eonwe just force Sauron to come with the Host back to Valinor? They had Morgoth, why not take his lieutenant too? Even if he is pardoned, he can just go and do as he pleases afterward and leave Valinor again. And if he isn't pardoned, then you have a dangerous criminal ready to be locked up. There's zero reason to not just take him.
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Aug 2, 2015 20:05
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Tolkien does say this in Myths Transformedquote:If we consider the situation after the escape of Morgoth and the reestablishment of his abode in Middle-earth, we shall see that the heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually besieged, and at any rate fully occupied, on the Northern fringe of Middle-earth, without provoking him to a frenzy of nihilistic destruction. And in the meanwhile, Men, or the best elements of Mankind, shaking off his shadow, came into contact with a people who had actually seen and experienced the Blessed Realm. In essence, had the Noldor not kept him distracted for a long time, Morgoth's Empire would have been annihilated by Morgoth himself because he hates everything in creation and would have crushed everything within his uncontested reach to atoms. Of course, Feanor himself couldn't have known this. Indeed, he himself never was part of the "virtually besieging" because he died right after coming to Middle-earth. More thanks should go to Fingolfin, whom Feanor might as well have left for dead.
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Aug 2, 2015 21:36
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Well I know Manwe at least is stated to be pure goodness personified, which is why he never "understood" Melkor's evil. He's incapable of vice so vice naturally perplexes him. Of course, if Manwe is literally programmed to be good, he's not actually good at all. He has no choice in the matter. If you can't choose to be evil, if it is functionally impossible for you to be greedy or wrathful or prideful, then you are neutral like a robot and nothing more. Of course, that's from a modern perspective where morality is determined from actions. The Silmarillion is written like something from a bygone era and is working under a entirely alien concept of right and wrong.
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Aug 2, 2015 23:41
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"In the midst of this strife, whereat the halls of Ilúvatar shook and a tremor ran out into the silences yet unmoved, Ilúvatar arose a third time, and his face was terrible to behold. Then he raised up both his hands, and in one chord, deeper than the Abyss, higher than the Firmament, piercing as the light of the eye of Ilúvatar, the Music ceased.Ravenfood posted:IIRC, doesn't Eru note that even Melkor's Discord during the Great Music was ultimately born from Eru's will? And that the additional themes Eru brings into the Song only come to counteract the Discord and so eventually add to the beauty of the song, or some such? Its been a while. Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.' Then the Ainur were afraid, and they did not yet comprehend the words that were said to them; and Melkor was filled with shame, of which came secret anger. But Ilúvatar arose in splendour, and he went forth from the fair regions that he had made for the Ainur; and the Ainur followed him. But when they were come into the Void, Ilúvatar said to them: 'Behold your Music!' And he showed to them a vision, giving to them sight where before was only hearing; arid they saw a new World made visible before them, and it was globed amid the Void, and it was sustained therein, but was not of it. And as they looked and wondered this World began to unfold its history, and it seemed to them that it lived and grew. And when the Ainur had gazed for a while and were silent, Ilúvatar said again: 'Behold your Music! This is your minstrelsy; and each of you shall find contained herein, amid the design that I set before you, all those things which it may seem that he himself devised or added. And thou, Melkor, wilt discover all the secret thoughts of thy mind, and wilt perceive that they are but a part of the whole and tributary to its glory.'" An interesting fact, to me at least, is that Tolkien says that Sauron actually understood more of the Music than Melkor ever did. A friend of mine and a super Tolkien fan put it this way - Sauron at least loved Creation enough to want to rule it. He liked what Eru had done but he felt it needed Order; order he alone could provide. Melkor hated everything in creation because he hadn't been the one to create it. Everything in existence enrages him simply by being because they have no right to be.
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Aug 3, 2015 13:55
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I said Morgoth would destroy his empire and everything within his reach.... I was responding to Nessus, who is more or less right, as per Tolkien. Had Feanor and the other Noldor stayed in Valinor, everywhere that wasn't the Undying Lands would have been hosed. Morgoth would have ruled everything and he would have killed everything.
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Aug 4, 2015 03:56
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Of course, Numenor's Doom was ably aided along by the Vala, who left Melkr's right-hand free to do as he pleased. Also I'll never forget that, at one point, the Powers send an emissary to Numenor when the Numenoreans are losing faith, and the emissary's message amounts to "I know it's been eons and eons and eons beyond counting since you had any involvement with them but I assure you, THEY ARE right over there. You can't see them or interact with them though but you MUST obey them absolutely. Just take my word for it that they are immortal and wonderful and better than you and t hat you going there won't help anything." Worst. Diplomat. Ever. Of course, the whole Tale of Neumnor is uncomfortable as it's rife with Tolkien's Catholicism mixed in with ancient ideas and myths. The result is something that offends modern sensibilities in the extreme. Oh I love The Silmarillion to death but no matter how many times it tries to push forward its morality, I simply will not buy in to certain things. Like why Turin ultimately killed himself. Incest isn't that bad.... I believe the Pharaohs married brother to sister, didn't they?
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Nov 8, 2015 03:40
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HIJK posted:I think it's well understood that the Valar hosed up at almost every turn with the inhabitants of Middle Earth. It always surprises me at how they do everything wrong. It's well understood by us but where in the actual text is there any criticism of the Vala apart from Melkor and maybe Aule when he made the Dwarves? Their flaws are repeatedly stated to be virtues. Manwe is too stupid to understand Melkor so it means he's too "pure and good" to fathom him or what harm he will do. And while she's not a Valar, I'll never forget how Melian just fucks off and leaves her people exposed and helpless to Morgoth's forces. No criticism in the text, no "WTF what kind of queen are you?!" She just abandons them and that's that. I've heard that Tolkien originally envisioned the Valar as more like the Greek Gods or other highly fallible and petty pagan deities. But somewhere along the way he started to imagine them more as angels. Only he never changed the numerous fallible and stupid things they did. He just put in a lot of flowery language about how wise and bneevolent they were. It's a classic case of Telling, not Showing. The only real excuse is The Silmarillion is an in-universe text, written by highly biased elves.
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Nov 8, 2015 06:22
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Given their sheer power - these are the things that were Morgoth's only hope against the Host of the Valar - it's reasonable to assume that they were born from Morgoth's essence. Morgoth's great flaw was that, for all his power, he was not infinite, like Eru. Thus, to make things he always had to break himself down. It seems fair to suggest that Morgoth, who was even weaker than subordinate Sauron by the end of the First Age, squandered even more of himself by creating his great trump card.
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Nov 12, 2015 17:16
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Hogge Wild posted:From where have you read about their power levels? http://fair-use.org/j-r-r-tolkien/notes-on-motives-in-the-silmarillion/ quote:Sauron was "greater", effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First. Why? Because, though he was far smaller by natural stature, he had not yet fallen so low. Eventually he also squandered his power (of being) in the endeavour to gain control of others. But he was not obliged to expend so much of himself. To gain domination over Arda, Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth — hence all things that were born on Earth, and lived on and by it, beasts or plants or incarnate spirits, were liable to be "stained". Morgoth at the time of the War of the Jewels had become permanently "incarnate"; for this reason he was afraid, and waged the war almost entirely by means of devices, or of subordinates and dominated creatures. The essay as a whole is a fascinating examination of the Dark Lords' psyches. I've always found it of particular note that Sauron actually understood more of the Music than Melkor.
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Nov 12, 2015 17:23
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Well you have to figure it came after an entire Age and the time before where he was waging nonstop war by spreading his power into things. This is another relevant quote. This is actually after the Battle of the Powers when Morgoth ruled Utumno and all the Valar fought him: quote:Both are amazed: Manwë to perceive the decrease in Melkor as a person; Melkor to perceive this also from his own point of view: he has now less personal force than Manwë, and can no longer daunt him with his gaze. Melkor used to be the single greatest created being in Ea. Naturally it took him a long time to be brought down to something more manageable. Even then, the Valar warn Feanor - who is basically the best elf ever - that he could never defeat Morgoth, even if Feanor was three times stronger.
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Nov 12, 2015 17:44
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euphronius posted:Fingolfin was able to wound Morgoth even and he could never heal. People never remember the state Morgoth was in when he fought Fingolfin. I remember because it's one of my favorite bits from The Sil. "In Angband Morgoth forged himself a great crown of iron, and he called himself King of the World. In token of this he set the Silmarils in his crown. His hands were burned black by the touch of those hallowed jewels, and black they remained ever after; nor was he ever free from the pain of the burning, and the anger of the pain. That crown he never took from his head, though its weight became a deadly weariness." How effectively could you fight and wield a weapon with like, 4th-degree burns from the most holy artifacts in existence? Morgoth is incarnate which means you can hurt him but a limp is far from being anything even vaguely life-threatening and Fingolfin only accomplished that with his dying breath. His normal attacks did no lasting damage. I love the passage I quoted because, in all of The Silmarillion, nothing encapsulates the character of Melkor more than those sentences. At least to me.
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Nov 14, 2015 17:20
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Yeah I'm not that observant. The only thing I noticed was that Saruman's robes didn't turn a bunch of different colors in the movie.
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Jan 2, 2016 07:55
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Hogge Wild posted:why not by dragonforce if you want to be mean Most Tolkien fans I know seem to like BG's Silmarillion tribute album.
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Aug 20, 2016 16:24
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I'm bothered less by Sexy Shelob and more by her change in personality. I liked that in the books she couldn't care less about rings or wars or Sauron. Everyone in Middle-earth is (rightly) scared shitless of the Dark Lord she has as a neighbor but he is of absolutely no concern to her. With Durin's Bane and Smaug dead, she's pretty much the last Great Evil of the First Age in Arda. But apparently, her characterization here is that she is sort of a spurned lover and is salty at Sauron for neglecting her or something.
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Aug 15, 2017 17:40
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