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PMush Perfect posted:No. My hot take: deciding whether things are "good" or "bad" is a waste of time and a poor excuse for actual criticism.
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Jul 24, 2017 22:25
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defile the canon, 
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The "healing hands of the king" are interesting because Tolkien explicitly links it to basic Elven healing "magic" that Elladan and Elrohir are able to carry out in secret right afterwards. It's a matter of education, not bloodline. And the prophecy was almost certainly invented by some old bearded fellow roaming around the city in ages past. There's nothing divine about Aragorn's right to rule Gondor. His ascendancy is carefully curated.
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Jul 25, 2017 10:52
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Like his whole special deal for the first 4 books is that he's a big Numenorean Man out of ancient stories and destined to be more than just a scruffy ranger, but then when he actually gets to Gondor Tolkien surrounds him with equally special (if not more so) guys like Faramir (explicitly far more Numenorean-like than Boromir), Prince Imrahil (obvious Elven blood) and a pair of mudblood Elves defined largely by their lack of uniqueness. He's a big part of Gandalf's quest to destroy his divine enemies and bring order to Middle Earth, but extremely replaceable (he had Faramir waiting in the wings after all).
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Jul 25, 2017 11:09
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skasion posted:Yeah I think the latter bit is especially important. Without Aragorn there is no hope for any political order in Eriador going forward. The rangers, or those few of them that survived the Pelennor, would be leaderless and far from home. The elves of Rivendell and Lindon are on their way out. That essentially makes the Thain the most important political figure west of the Misty Mountains! Even as Tolkien writes it, it's a little difficult to see how Aragorn reestablished a north-kingdom. One shudders to think how it could have been done without him. None of this matters to Gandalf. Once he's defeated Sauron and Saruman using the armies of Rohan and Gondor he's won the game and goes home. It's not like everyone lives in peace following the crowning, either. Aragorn's life is spent fighting wars of vengeance/subjugation in the lands in the South, that fell under Sauron's sway. No Northern Kingdom is re-established. The Shire goes on as its own thing, only there's technically a King who leaves them be. The Bree-lands are likely similar.
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Jul 25, 2017 15:48
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And in the books the ghosts aren't really a big deal. They scared some pirates.
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Jul 25, 2017 15:50
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Ravenfood posted:They are a big deal in terms of Aragorn's legitimacy claims, though. Is it really? Would anyone have objected to his taking the crown on the grounds of his not waking up some forgotten ghosts in the hills? It's an important moment in resolving Aragorn's personal baggage (he's lived his whole life being told he has to redeem a long legacy of Men's failures) but it's not crucial to his gaining the throne (except in scaring some pirates).
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Jul 25, 2017 21:04
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euphronius posted:Right so cutting off reinforcements with spectral beings sworn only to the heir of isildur is a big deal. I see no reason why all those soldiers he brought to Pelennor couldn't have stolen the ships themselves. Laziness? Boromir would've whipped them into shape had he been around.
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Jul 26, 2017 01:18
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The corsair ships were parked on the river leading up to Minas Tirith, the paths of the dead didn't transport Aragorn & co. all the way down to Umbar. The soldiers and sailors he picks up are locals.
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Jul 26, 2017 16:45
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Aragorn doesn't attack Umbar directly until years later in his wars of vengeance with Eomer.
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Jul 26, 2017 16:45
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The history of Gondor is a history of subjugation of the southern coastlands. It's interesting that the primary reason Tolkien gives for most of the "evil" men joining "the enemy" is essentially revenge (hillmen of Dunland etc.) They have legitimate grievances and no reason to believe their lot would improve had they sided with the "good" side.
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Jul 26, 2017 18:37
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Data Graham posted:I keep waiting for him to talk about how transgressive and iconoclastic LotR was at the time of writing It wasn't, really. Most of the story elements were considered throwbacks at the time of writing.
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Jul 27, 2017 16:02
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Black riders are way creepier in the books than the shrieking bedsheets Viggo sets on fire.
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Jul 29, 2017 02:10
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euphronius posted:lol I don't think lotro is paying him a dime. You don't need to be paid to advertise something. Drink Coke.
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Jul 31, 2017 14:47
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:I seem to recall, years ago, another thread having had the discussion on who legally owned the Ring. I believe the ultimate conclusion, and one I subscribe to, is that the Ring is not property but intelligent and that the final take-away is that the Ring kidnapped Bilbo and Frodo. That's the least effective kidnapping of all time, then. The ring was kidnapped but after 50 years managed to call for help and engineer an escape (but was killed in the process).
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Aug 1, 2017 16:05
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Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:All the stuff a page or two ago about Aragorn being a canny politician ignores the way he sets things up at the end. He gives Faramir Ithilien and command of an elite group of troops but he also says that Faramir and his descendants will continue to hold the office of Steward of Gondor. That's loving stupid. Aragorn's rise to the throne is orchestrated by Gandalf and Elrond. He is a puppet. A figurehead. He's very good at fighting wars and learns to be good at acting Kingly (eg. the insane speech he makes from the battlements at Helm's Deep).
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Aug 3, 2017 12:25
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Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:Gandalf isn't a person though he's a magical spirit who exists only to manipulate people into fighting Sauron and he doesn't give a poo poo about you or your family or anything except in how they can help him get that done. Gandalf is a person whose life's purpose is either a) to safeguard all that is objectively Good and Pure in middle earth or b) to war with the other maiar on middle earth by raising armies and hatching cunning schemes. Depending on how you choose to read it. He's objectively an rear end in a top hat to people he doesn't find personally useful (specifically see how his attitude towards Pippin changes over the course of the books), and he does a lot of dickish stuff for "the greater good". He's not really much different from Sauron and Saruman in how he operates, only in his choice of allies. Posh hobbits, elvish nobility and horselords vs. history's downtrodden underclasses.
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Aug 4, 2017 00:34
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Ashcans posted:Gandalf definitely uses people to further his ends, but I am pretty comfortable saying that there is a significant difference between him manipulating various people toward his goals and the guy who literally schemed to turn people into undying wraiths bound to his will. Sauron only did that to the ruling classes, it was never widespread public policy. Radagast is the only truly moral maiar/wizard in the books, and even he was portrayed as likely to seek to enforce his form of order on middle earth eventually (as Man continued to encroach upon nature).
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Aug 4, 2017 20:56
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SHISHKABOB posted:That's what the text says. The two never get mentioned again after they are lost, and the third got turned into a star or whatever. Elvish fairy tales.
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Aug 6, 2017 02:01
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A gem can't just become a star, stars are massive balls of flaming gas millions of kilometres away #urukscience
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Aug 6, 2017 16:14
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Pipe weed was a Numenorean crop, although the people of Middle Earth were the first to smoke it.
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Aug 10, 2017 11:01
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Data Graham posted:Why was it a "crop" then? Chewing tobacco/dip.
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Aug 10, 2017 12:03
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haha weed lol Wouldn't it be funny if they were high XD
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Aug 11, 2017 01:37
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Based on Bilbo's pantry they have all the traditional English farmyard animals.
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Aug 13, 2017 17:52
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In every way except physical I am not a spider.
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Aug 17, 2017 00:39
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Enough parallels are drawn in deed between Sauron and Saruman and Gandalf that the same "humanized" qualities can be inferred for him. The only time we sort-of see him (Gollum's recollection told through Gandalf... so no biases there) his missing finger is emphasised. He's a wounded figure, and driven by fear of that wound (see: Aragorn with the Palantir). Several characters also operate as "his voice" (The Mouth, the wraith that visits the dwarves), claiming to speak in his words. There's more there than just an overshadowing, godly presence/great fiery eye. Nessus posted:In the sense that power does not inevitably corrupt, you can make good decisions, choice is meaningful, etc. Like, arguably the entire Council of Elrond is literally a bunch of wise people behaving in a way that is actually kind of wise, viz: "We understand what the Ring means, and now we have to figure out what the gently caress to do with it, without taking the obvious course that we all know is gonna be doomed." The Council of Elrond is more literally a bunch of toffs sitting around endlessly telling stories and getting nowhere until a plucky old hobbit (also a toff) decides to 'ave a go. Also Legolas crying about how useless his people are.
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Aug 18, 2017 11:54
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William Contraalto posted:with this urbanization came class mobility, as neatly developed in Samwise Gamgee, seven times Mayor of Michel Delving, and his wife Rosie Cotton. Sam achieved his position via nepotism and other connections, not a widespread increase in class mobility within greater Hobbit society. The hero Hobbits and their families keep their positions of authority until death/retirement. The Shire is a picture of social stagnation both before and after the events of the books. edit: Ah, you also said the Bagginses were middle-class. Good troll, well played. sassassin fucked around with this message at 18:06 on Aug 29, 2017 |
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Aug 29, 2017 18:04
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The Baggins family were upper class toffs. They're old money. The middle class flocked to a Baggins party because of how much fancy swag they'd give out. The poors got to clean up the day after. The Gamgees - servants of the Baggins family for generations - were granted special dispensation to attend.
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Aug 29, 2017 20:32
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skasion posted:There's juuuuust about enough in LOTR to get what Gandalf is referencing when he talks about flames of Anor (they've already explained what Minas Anor means at the council of Elrond) and Udun (though not until much later in book 6, and then it's the wrong explanation; you'd wind up thinking the Balrog was from Mordor, when Gandalf was actually talking about primordial hell) but lol good luck figuring out what the Secret Fire is supposed to be based on the text. Is it not the secret ring of fire/inspiration/mind-control he wears?
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Sep 1, 2017 13:27
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extra stout posted:I forget his name, want to say Corey something. But this guy actually has a house in the LoTRO MMO on the goon server Landroval, though the devs since made a building in Bree to give talks at. Now it became pretty popular so he jumps servers, but you can actually drink digital beer in a big crowded room full of players while listening to him give lectures on Tolkien. How often did people get a band together and play green day over him?
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Sep 8, 2017 17:07
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lol so random
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Sep 25, 2017 11:49
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Goldberry is Old Man Willow. This was sorted years ago.
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Sep 28, 2017 21:57
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When Tolkien was a boy that was something that happened. English countryside was full of elf-queens (slang).
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Oct 2, 2017 13:17
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viral spiral posted:At least this won't be as bad as The Hobbit films. Things can always get worse.
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Nov 15, 2017 19:04
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Tarsem Singh's Fall of Gondolin. No spoken dialogue. Not interested in the continuing adventures of Aragorn the scruffy ranger or whatever.
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Nov 15, 2017 20:01
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Nessus posted:Preposterous, Galadriel would've given Frodo a ham beezy at most. It was Gimli she craved, for even the Elf-queens of yore may know with certainty that "a Dwarf packs." You really think she was horny for the short guy who told her a hair off her head was the most precious thing in the world to him? Nice guy beta bullshit, she practically burst out laughing at how pathetic he sounded. Grab my old brush I'll give him three lol it'll make his week.
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Nov 16, 2017 00:18
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PMush Perfect posted:Didn't whats-his-face ask for one and get denied, though? Yeah but he was a dick trying to show off.
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Nov 16, 2017 01:22
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HIJK posted:PJ's movies at least had great respect for the material even when they changed it. Did they, though? I mean they had more respect for the fantasy genre than other movies did at the time (and since), they put the work in to approach it sincerely, no ironic campness or winks to the audience about how silly this all is, but I wouldn't consider that "great respect for the material" in itself. They changed almost literally every scene in major ways, usually rewriting from scratch, as if they were writing a script based on a plot summary of the books rather than the books themselves. Now they made some very good changes (Faramir, Bree), but also a lot of bad ones and even more that leave you scratching your head wondering why since it made no substantive difference to the film. Just change for change's sake.
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Nov 16, 2017 12:16
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People forget just how much of those films were Jackson/Boyens inventions. It's easy to think of them as being faithful when you remember Frodo and Sam leaving Hobbiton together in a hurry as being the way the story always went. An truer adaptation with a middle-aged Frodo, simpering bumpkin stereotype Sam, coming-of-age Gimli, an Aragorn that stands on the battlements and demands the Uruk Hai surrender at Helm's Deep etc. could easily seem fresh and new.
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Nov 16, 2017 16:31
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HIJK posted:I don't mind that they changed stuff to make the story more cinematic. They absolutely respected the material. The sets are proof. The detailed costumes and props are proof. They knew what they were changing and why and PJ has a lot more experience making movies than the rest of us. He's not a genius but he didn't have people tied up in sacks and thrown into holes either. The Arwen changes are bad writing and bad filmmaking both the parts that they used and the parts that they filmed but cut in Two Towers, which had a direct effect on minimising Eowyn's arc. The Return of the King is a dogshit script. "Oh they had to change things to make it more cinematic" is a lazy defence of the changes that didn't do that at all. A wave of snot wiping a battlefield clear isn't more cinematic than what was on the page. They don't get a free pass based on how much chainmail they ordered from their own company the costume work is phenomenal it's a shame it's attached to such mediocre films.
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Nov 16, 2017 16:48
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:By the standards of Hollywood adaptations generally, Jackson had an unheard-of level of reverence for Tolkien's text. Quick edit there well done.
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Nov 16, 2017 16:49
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