Tolkien's Middle-Earth: He was just Beorn this way

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I think most British sailing for adventure and trade as well as colonization would have gone to the West at least at first. East you just have the Baltic and Germany. West you have the world.

# ¿ Jun 21, 2023 14:54

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# ¿ May 9, 2024 19:55

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A menu in the sense of "a bill of fare" might have been around; the Prancing Pony might not have had a menu for you to offer from, but might have had a chalk board on which it was said "Beef Stew with Carrots, Rye Bread" or similar - something to draw in possible local custom as well as travelers, or simply to get ahead of an obvious question.

The famous war cry of the Dwarves was "Baruk Khazad! Khazad ai-menu!" which we know, of course, to be "Axes of the Dwarves, the dwarves are upon you!"

Orcs fight Dwarves enough to surely know that Khazad is their name for themselves, if perhaps misunderstanding things (Inquisitors who were putting Jews to the flame would mistake the first words of the Shema Israel as "long live the Jews") -- and I am quite sure that if orcs would eat men, they would also eat dwarves.

Therefore, "menu" could enter their speech as a term for a bill of fare, as it seems reasonable given the slant of Tolkien's orcish culture that military efforts against non-orcs would have a certain air of devouring and plundering. As for "meat," it seems reasonable too that orcs would distinguish from the vile dried meats they carried as rations into battle from the prospect of fresh meat.

# ¿ Jun 25, 2023 20:23

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Data Graham posted:

This is oblique but cool

What is, lol. Baruk meaning 'blessed' in Hebrew?

# ¿ Jun 26, 2023 21:56

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Data Graham posted:

Yeah, and the fact that it's prominently in the prayer you mentioned, beginning a line where Tolkien probably would have noticed it being an interesting word to start off that battle-cry with.

I thought that might have been the "misunderstanding" you were alluding to, or analogous to it

Ha, I was taking the piss on how to justify the use of the term "menu" but you're absolutely right, and he probably did!

The line in question, for those unfamiliar:

posted:

Sh'ma Yisrael Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Eḥad
Baruch shem k�vod l�olam

# ¿ Jun 27, 2023 04:10

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I assume Denethor was getting gaslit by Sauron in a series of "see this bad thing? it's even worse than you thought... choose the palantirmoji that best reflects your feelings to see more!" events.

# ¿ Jul 7, 2023 00:12

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I imagine the ancient Gondoricans who built the beacon route probably tested it in a wide range of conditions and adjusted things appropriately. Seems like you might be able to expect 'word' to pass if there's no point where a tower can only ever see one other beacon tower - if you see the two behind the guy closest are lit, then that guy's probably dead or slacking off, go ahead and light it up.

I imagine if the system finished and the Rohirrim show up when you didn't actually want them, you throw a feast for them and praise their courage and let them roll on home with gifts.

# ¿ Jul 9, 2023 19:44

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As I recall, weren't they sneaking pretty successfully since they were just in the upper chambers and nobody else was around them, but then Pippin's fool rear end had to go and drop a rock down a well?

# ¿ Sep 9, 2023 19:13

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I didn't get the feeling those were Sauron's troops there, they were probably similar to the guys in Goblin-town and were in thrall to the Balrog if anything. Obviously if they'd found the Ring Sauron could have just sent the Nazgul in there to take it. It might have been spicier if the Balrog had seized the Ring.

# ¿ Sep 9, 2023 21:53

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Yeah, they have no problem saying the proper names in Rivendell or something when in proper council and actually planning. Aragorn probably doesn't want them to take this poo poo lightly, even a little bit, although some of it is probably also culture clash.

# ¿ Sep 22, 2023 05:28

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That sounds like it was a yodel or something of trivial quality that was not recorded as it was neither a Song nor a Piece of Dialogue. 'So long, shortasses!' etc.

# ¿ Nov 5, 2023 09:04

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The vibe I got is that Frodo and Bilbo would live out their natural lifespan and then pass in great peace and joy instead of being tormented in Middle-Earth. Possibly anyone who had the Ring would become some kind of miserable wraith eventually even if they might not have had the power to manipulate the world.

I hope Bilbo had a year or two to have a look around at least.

# ¿ Nov 12, 2023 06:07

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Ginette Reno posted:

I don't think anyone holding the ring becomes a wraith. That would be the eventual result if they kept it and kept using it but even Gollum was able to resist that happening. Hobbits are very resistant to fading.

Yeah I don't mean like a junior ringwraith I mean like they wouldn't be able to rest in peace, even if Sauron's fall meant the end of the skeleton war.

# ¿ Nov 16, 2023 15:48

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Later, the cool magic lady wears her skin, as I recall.

# ¿ Nov 22, 2023 06:30

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galagazombie posted:

I believe a major reason the concept of the Trinity exists is because every explanation of it can be construed to violate the central tenet of monotheism in some way. And thus anyone who ever becomes a problem to those in power can be declared a heretic at will. Because they will at some point have said something about the Trinity, and thus by definition violated Monotheism. And if they try and be cute and never mention it, that just makes them more guilty because now they are obviously hiding something and at their heresy trial all you have to do is use the gotcha question of "What do you believe about the Trinity?".

I think you greatly overestimate the long-term planning abilities of all political and religious actors ever

# ¿ Nov 24, 2023 05:26

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sweet geek swag posted:

Except the Nicene Creed was immediately used exactly in that way to target Arianism.

Yeah, I'm questioning the idea of it having been designed as some sort of long-term open-ended heresy trap card you could pull on your enemies.

# ¿ Nov 24, 2023 05:56

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You are forgetting that as a Hobbit, Bilbo is a shortarse

# ¿ Dec 8, 2023 20:47

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I like the idea that the Eagles suddenly saving Frodo and Sam was a cover for friendly or newly liberated orcs taking them to Aragorn and co even if the whole Last Ringbearer shtick doesn�t interest me much.

# ¿ Jan 3, 2024 18:28

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Lemniscate Blue posted:

If the same thing happens to Orcs as happens to Elves when they die then it is in fact a moral imperative to kill them as quickly as possible to send them to the Halls of Mandos where their tortured souls can be healed of the trauma of being born an Orc. Grab a sword and let's get at 'er. You're really doing them a favor!

(I feel gross having typed that.)

you see why Tolkien had issues with the idea!

# ¿ Jan 4, 2024 05:31

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With the possible exception of the efforts to reclaim Moria, which were both failures until the Fourth Age, and apparently limited to Moria itself, I can't think of any cases in the books where non-orcs went actively orc-hunting out of unprovoked aggression. Maybe the Lorien border guard was aggressive? But even then, against people who came to Lorien.

While it is not somehow obligatory to agree with it, Tolkien seems to distinguish 'killing a great many enemy soldiers in actual war' and 'just killing a bunch of people.'

# ¿ Jan 4, 2024 15:56

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skasion posted:

Yeah, like Lovecraft his only halfway marketable skill was writing fantasy fiction, so like Lovecraft during the Great Depression he more or less died of poverty. Conan is good fun with the usual pulp caveats. Start with �Frost-Giant�s Daughter� (short & will tell you if you can put up with his style: Conan tries to get some), �Red Nails� (probably the pick of the bunch: classic boy-meets-girl-meets-mesoamerican-dungeon-crawl) or maybe �Phoenix on the Sword�(first to be published: grumpy old man Conan is sick of being civil and wants to be barbaric again). Expect high camp. Lots of thews and ejaculations.

I believe Howard committed suicide after the death of his mother although he wasn't exactly living high on the hog either. :smith:

But it wasn't like Lovecraft's death from untreatable cancer.

# ¿ Jan 10, 2024 19:35

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galagazombie posted:

If I had to put money on it I�d go with �man who is sometimes a bear�. Since after the events of the Hobbit he sires a son named Grimbeorn who becomes a mannish king in the north east. Now why can he become a bear? Curse? Hobbit style divergence from mainstream man? Something something ancient elven craftsmanship something something bear skin cloak taken from the vaults of Feanor in the Elder Days?

It's actually really easy to do but the art is largely lost now, outside of P-town occasionally.

# ¿ Feb 7, 2024 04:48

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SHISHKABOB posted:

The wound to morgoths foot causes like a psychological wound to his ego, and because of morgoths whole attitude, it becomes permanent. The Vala are spirits and don't have physical forms. So him limping around is just a manifestation of his bruised self esteem. It is entirely real in that sense, it does actually "wound" him and weaken him.

Yeah, Morgoth starts out the strongest all-rounder even if Tulkas surpasses him in physical strength, but he fritters away his strength dominating mortals and everything. By the time he fought that elf guy he was still immensely powerful but was in fact vulnerable to harms, even if you may be right that it was as much the psychological damage of having been called out and then having had to actually work for it despite being twenty times the dude's size.

# ¿ Feb 9, 2024 18:29

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WoodrowSkillson posted:

Tolkien was extremely, painfully Catholic. While that can have it's problems, one thing about Catholic doctrine vs Protestants, especially Evangelicals, is that all of Genesis is considered to be metaphor, myth, or spoken word histories written down after centuries a la the Iliad.

So in general, there is no real concern about being blasphemous in writing a fairy story, since Catholics do not take a literalist approach to the Bible. The "avoid even the appearance of evil" stuff that is used to label Harry Potter as evil is not a problem.

Tolkien outright set out to make a story that merges themes of his own Catholic religion as well as Norse and Celtic paganism.

I have a paperback copy of the Silmarillion and I think it quotes extensively from, or just reproduces, a letter from Tolkien explaining his approach.

# ¿ Feb 14, 2024 05:54

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WoodrowSkillson posted:

Goddamn temple of doom whips

It�s Ke Huy Quans second finest film role!

# ¿ Feb 17, 2024 16:57

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Zopotantor posted:

Yep, The Goonies is definitely a better movie.

I prefer his more recent work myself

# ¿ Feb 17, 2024 19:05

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Zopotantor posted:

Oh, just more of the same.

_{_{yes, I know}}

Lmao, he�s had more roles than I thought!

# ¿ Feb 18, 2024 00:00

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Anshu posted:

No. The Numenoreans were forbidden from sailing any further west than the furthest point from which "the coasts of Numenor could still be seen", and we are told that Tol Eressea could only be glimpsed at a great distance only particularly clear and bright days, and even then only by the most keen-sighted when standing atop a mountain, or "from some tall ship that lay off their western coast as far as it was lawful for them to go".

I wonder what happened if you got caught in a storm or something and blown west of Numenor (possibly while considerably north or south of it). Probably a bird flies overhead and shortly thereafter you get a strong easterly wind. :v:

# ¿ Feb 26, 2024 15:18

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Phy posted:

Lemurs on natural rafts, however, he's entirely ok with. Welcome to the undying lands, little guys.

What is the Doom of Apes?

# ¿ Feb 26, 2024 18:26

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Ravenfood posted:

If Sauron suspected him he might have moved into southern Mirkwood as the necromancer in part to try and take Thranduil's potential ring, based on assuming (correctly) that he would be the weakest of the three, so Thranduil's realm being the most corrupted might be a facet of Sauron focusing his efforts to do so.

It does feel strange, though. Cirdan, Elrond, and Galadriel seem like the main candidates. Thranduil seems like a reach.

The Three might reveal themselves to aid like, the last elven kingdom that isn�t basically a single site. I got the vibe that Lorien was like Luxembourg.

# ¿ Feb 28, 2024 22:01

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The 'treating the narrative as something you found rather than something you assembled' does seem to come up here and there, I know Stephen King is a big advocate of it in his writing books. After Tolkien's time, of course (if obviously aware of the former)

# ¿ Mar 8, 2024 18:02

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# ¿ May 9, 2024 19:55

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midnight77 posted:

just realized everyone in the Shire smokes. Can you imagine how nasty those hobbit holes must smell, given hobbits live for like, 100 years? 100 years of multiple people smoking pipes.

Presumably like a pub

# ¿ May 8, 2024 22:02

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