|
I always think if you go into the Silmarillion with the mindset that you're reading a history rather than a story, it works a lot better. There's a lot of really interesting poo poo in there and fleshes out his world better. Gives it some more depth. Unfinished Tales are basically a bunch of the stuff that is touched on in the Silmarillion or the LotR books but not expanded on as much, but it's really rough and not everything ended up being the "final version". Still interesting but I kind of ran out of steam after reading the Simarillion before it and then got to the part where you learn a lot more about Galadriel and Celeborn. At some point I intend to throw some money down the drain and buy a collection of all the History of Middle Earth books just so I can have them... I also have always felt that Tolkien somehow managed to make his fantasy world both more real and more fantastic in a way that a lot of modern fantasy writers don't. Maybe it's because it feels more like myth and legend and has it's roots in fairy tails and existing myths, or maybe it's just my rose tinted glasses, but I can read 10+ books of the Wheel of Time or the Malazan series, and then go back to the LotR and it seems to have more depth and wonder to it.
|
#
¿
Feb 5, 2013 14:50
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ Apr 27, 2024 07:18 |
|
|
Millions posted:Could we post some pictures? I've been collecting them lately. Good call, I meant to mention something about. There's some great artwork out there for Middle Earth that's really enjoyable edit: Nasmith's stuff was used a lot for the movies as well. Levitate fucked around with this message at 15:57 on Feb 5, 2013 |
|
#
¿
Feb 5, 2013 15:46
|
|
|
Sorry, I should have said it looks like his work was used as an inspiration for some of the sets, there are some pretty big similarities between some of his paintings and scenes from the movies. Maybe it's just coincidence but since they were trying to make a lot of the visuals similar to the paintings of the artists who have created visuals of Middle Earth I also tend to like Alan Lee's work
|
|
#
¿
Feb 5, 2013 16:17
|
|
|
The Hobbit with Tolkien's original artwork on the dust jacket is pretty easy to get from Amazon. I think you can still get the 1966 publication new (for some reason  ) and they republished it fairly recently with the same illustration but slightly different coloring
|
|
#
¿
Feb 5, 2013 21:10
|
|
|
The Bombadil section is also not very long (I think only 15 pages or something), I think it's just that people are often already struggling to get used to the language and a kind of slow start of the book and it adds to that a bit
|
|
#
¿
Feb 16, 2013 20:34
|
|
|
euphronius posted:I read it as Gandalf talking him into it. Wasn't this more of a movie thing? At least in the LotR, he didn't have to be convinced to claim his birthright, and I feel like he was raised with knowledge of who he was and knew all along what he would do, but in the movies they made him into the reluctant king type. As for Orcs and the reliability of the Silmarillion's history, I guess it depends on if you're reading it as a history written by the Elves or written by an omniscient author. I'm not sure how Tolkien intended it to be, I've always read it as a definite history and not just a collection of stories that may or may not be true. Whatever floats your boat I guess
|
|
#
¿
Feb 19, 2013 16:21
|
|
|
I think it's explicitly spelled out in the Silmarillion what the wizards are, and why they're in middle earth (They're Maiar who were sent by the Valar to Middle Earth to help protect against Sauron, who was also a Maiar that was corrupted by Morgoth)
|
|
#
¿
Feb 21, 2013 15:37
|
|
|
I think Sauron didn't join up during the song of creation though, he was one of the Valar's crew (the smith, can't remember his name. edit: Aulë) before turning spy for Morgoth
|
|
#
¿
Feb 21, 2013 16:21
|
|
|
I think the one bit of info that kind of disputes that he is a Maiar is I believe he claims to have been the first being on Middle-Earth, before even Melkor, and in the Silmarillion it is claimed that Melkor is the first being from outside of the earth to enter it once it was created. It's been a bit since I read those parts though so maybe I'm missremembering it. Even so, it really just throws a wrinkle into the idea instead of doing away with it altogether because you could always rationalize it away as someone is mistaken in one of the accounts e: I'm reading the biography of Tolkien by Humphrey Carpenter and it's interesting to see how he developed his mythology and how he viewed it. Taking pieces of other ancient myths and legends and combining it with his imagination and treating it as if he were uncovering a history of sorts rather than making up a fantasy world. Levitate fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Mar 14, 2013 |
|
#
¿
Mar 14, 2013 19:17
|
|
|
euphronius posted:Here is the section from the Silmarillion Ahh, got it. I didn't remember that it was said that "he too" was there from the first. I think realistically he doesn't have an exact fit into Middle-Earth and its mythology, but it's vague enough that there's certainly a strong argument for him being a Maiar.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 14, 2013 21:50
|
|
|
Fog Tripper posted:I cannot watch the movies, as I simply don't want what the professor put into my mind's eye to be disturbed. Really wish I could read them all again for the first time. I kind of envy those who have no knowledge of the movies and are cracking them open for the first time. Eh, I kind of saw the movies as a new way to see the story again. A little like reading the books again for the first time, etc. I also found a lot of the imagery to be close to my own mental images (probably because I'd seen some stuff artists had done and they drew off a lot of those images for the movies). Reading the books is still a much different experience and I think I still kind of imagine it differently when I read them
|
|
#
¿
Mar 15, 2013 01:45
|
|
|
Silent Linguist posted:I'm pretty sure wood-elves are usually light-haired, so that wasn't a mistake. Frodo should definitely not have been played by a 19-year-old, though. I kind of liked the younger Frodo (and Sam), but yeah maybe they could have gone a little older looking... I have more issues with Aragorn's character in how he acts rather than how he looks. Seems too uncertain of himself and things compared to the books, but overall I think they did pretty good. It's never going to be perfect but they obviously put a ton of work into making it feel like Middle Earth Better than the casting for the Hobbit, cuz I certainly never though young dwarves would look like that 
|
|
#
¿
Mar 16, 2013 15:51
|
|
|
Yeah, though I'd probably like to start with the Silmarillion, it's not the easiest read and might just turn you off altogether (then again, maybe you'll be fine with it, kind of hard to guess who will like it and who won't). I'd probably start with the Hobbit, and keep in mind that it was written as a book for young readers and there is a vast difference in writing and tone between it and the Lord of the Rings. It gives you a nice entry into things though and is entertaining. Then read LoTR. The appendices might be a bit much, so don't feel like you have to read them, you can get a lot of that info out of the Silmarillion. I believe Children of Hurin is a reorganization of a story out of the Silmarillion and reads better than what's in the Silmarillion, but it probably doesn't matter what you read first. I actually have the book but haven't quite gotten around to reading it
|
|
#
¿
Mar 17, 2013 14:56
|
|
|
I started reading Children of Hurin and yeah if you've read The Hobbit and LoTR's and want some more, it's a pretty good place to start if you're not sure the Silmarillion will be your style. It focuses on one story (instead of a kind of history like the Silmarillion) but teases enough things that might interest you to read more of the Silmarillion if the style of writing doesn't turn you off It's also really depressing
|
|
#
¿
Mar 24, 2013 02:55
|
|
|
Ape Gone Insane posted:Yup, it's really, really dark for Tolkien. I was really surprised by the shift from the tone of his other works. Eh, the fall of Numenor and the whole story of Faenor and the consequences of his pride are pretty dark as well. The story of Turin is just a lot more personal in a lot of ways, I think
|
|
#
¿
Mar 26, 2013 00:56
|
|
|
I think it was a little of both (in terms of why he wanted to leave), but he was allowed to go specifically because he was the ring bearer (edit: I should say, a ring bearer. Sam is also told that he may one day be allowed to take the ship to the West, because he was a ring bearer for a short time, but now was not the time for that) . At the end of the third book, there's a passage where Sam finds Frodo looking pained, and tells Sam "I am wounded...it will never truly heal" and that was 2 years to the day he was stabbed by the Morgul blade. He was then later ill in March, which was when the main story comes to a head and the ring is finally destroyed.
Levitate fucked around with this message at 00:16 on Mar 29, 2013 |
|
#
¿
Mar 29, 2013 00:14
|
|
|
Isn't there something about how Bilbo and Frodo didn't actually go to Valinor, but probably some other place where they chilled with the elves? That's one of those vague things I remember but don't know enough off the top of my head about where to look it up. I thought Valinor was only for the Elves and above and it was pretty much no go for anyone else ever
|
|
#
¿
Mar 30, 2013 03:36
|
|
|
Expanding on that a bit, Children of Hurin is a story that's also told in the Silmarillion, but broken off into its own book and kind of pulled together from various sources to be the most complete version of the story. If you want to get a taste of some of the stuff in the Silmarillion, you could read it first and kind of get an idea of what you're getting into, though it's darker in a lot of ways than most of the Silmarillion. The Silmarillion itself is like a collection of stories and histories that basically flesh out details from the beginning of the world up to the time of the LOTR. Lots of names thrown around, lots of naming of places and stuff, but lots of background on why things are they way they are later on and stories about some of the badasses of ancient Middle Earth. Unfinished Tales is kind of like an expansion of the information in the Silmarillion in that it has a lot of other versions of things he wrote and then discarded or rewrote. So, you get some different ideas or more information on some things that he never got around to fleshing out later, but it doesn't have a ton of outright new material. I haven't read the History of Middle Earth books but they seem to basically be the expanded version of Unfinished Tales. Basically all of the early versions, discarded versions, rewrites, things he jotted down but never incorporated, and stories he wrote as lays and then abandoned and rewrote in prose (he wrote several of the major stories as lays, including the story told in the Children of Hurin, before scrapping them).
|
|
#
¿
Apr 2, 2013 03:36
|
|
|
It's probably more like standard English food, considering the author
|
|
#
¿
Apr 4, 2013 12:45
|
|
|
Yup Feanor was a prick
|
|
#
¿
Apr 12, 2013 17:39
|
|
|
Saruman was always a proud prick even before Sauron corrupted him. He was jealous of Gandalf and his whole character is kind of setup to be the proud self important rear end in a top hat who falls to evil in large part because of his character flaws. Not saying he's the worst villain in the books or something or deserves a fate worse than others, but I don't really agree with him as the sympathetic character you're casting him as
|
|
#
¿
Jul 6, 2013 03:38
|
|
|
I really need a super lightweight version of Fellowship to take with me while backpacking, that would be awesome
|
|
#
¿
Jul 10, 2013 16:16
|
|
|
Data Graham posted:So you can read about Nazgűl from the comfort of your cold tent in the trackless wild, huh? So I can read about companionship and epic adventure while I'm experiencing the thrill of the untamed wilderness 
|
|
#
¿
Jul 10, 2013 19:35
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:Kindle? I did just get the whole LoTR on kindle recently but I was trying to get my pack down to low weight and didn't want to bust up my kindle either on the trip. iphone kindle app works well though...only problem is keeping the battery usage manageable And yeah, people calling LoTR cliched are pretty ignorant.
|
|
#
¿
Oct 26, 2013 00:30
|
|
|
I think plenty of people would not call LoTR literature, but I'm not really sure what the definition of literature really is. It's something you can certainly deconstruct and study, and its impact on the fantasy genre is undeniable, and personally I like the writing and story, but I suspect the subject matter wouldn't meet the literature bar for many people. Not a call I'm going to make...I just enjoy reading it and appreciating the results of all the effort Tolkien put into it
|
|
#
¿
Oct 27, 2013 14:04
|
|
|
Reading the Silmarillion is bearable because it's awesome  (I guess I've just never let myself get bogged down in details if it took checking maps and all that stuff to get it to come together, I'd just kind of move on. Not great for scholarly study or something but good for entertainment)
|
|
#
¿
Dec 28, 2013 00:49
|
|
|
GyverMac posted:Thanks for the answers. I guess it makes sense that the balrog is hiding in Mora. I read it but I don't remember, I'll try to check when I get home but I think at the most it probably just gives some sketchy general information
|
|
#
¿
Dec 30, 2013 17:09
|
|
|
Yeah Bilbo was a bit unusual for a Hobbit in that I believe he did things like go for walks outside of the Shire and fantasize about having adventures, but really didn't do much beyond having some bloodlines to some famous hobbits.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 30, 2013 18:02
|
|
|
Did Christopher Tolkien actually write anything at all that wasn't basically just editing his fathers notes?
|
|
#
¿
Dec 30, 2013 18:37
|
|
|
Yeah Middle Earth as an "extended universe" work of fiction would be terrible. Tolkien wrote the history up to and through the LoTR and after that is more or less left to the idea of "the age of man comes and eventually it becomes our world because all those other races gently caress off and we never hear from them again" Also that this was all written and published back in the day probably helps keep that stuff from happening
|
|
#
¿
Jan 1, 2014 04:33
|
|
|
I'm relaxing on a friday night watching the Return of the King on blu-ray and man for any faults the movies or the books have, Tolkien's world is awesome and it's amazing to me how much a part of my life it's been  My dad was a big fan and when we'd go backpacking he'd talk about how rock outcroppings reminded him of the trolls turned to stone in the Hobbit, so being out in the wilderness will always remind me of Middle EarthI'm also maybe a huge nerd but whatever
|
|
#
¿
Jan 25, 2014 03:35
|
|
|
There's some more info on her in the Unfinished Tales book
|
|
#
¿
Jan 30, 2014 13:45
|
|
|
Nah, detailing everything out with all the backstory and information you could ever want is a good way to kill the mystery and liveliness of a mythology like Middle Earth.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 14, 2014 01:50
|
|
|
Narmer posted:That's debatable. The published version of the Silmarillion gives the impression that Illuvatar and the Ainur were the only beings to exist prior to Arda, and that everything else was created as part of Arda. Remember though that the Silmarillion was pieced together by Tolkien's son from a whole lot of different texts that often contradicted each other. We don't know what his father's original intention was. Earlier versions of the creation story talk about pixies and faeries and other beings entering Arda from outside. I've always thought that spirits from outside Arda were still part of Tolkien's conception of middle-earth, even later on. In the Book of Lost Tales an alternate version of the Ungoliant story mentions that even the Valar don't know what she is, which wouldn't make sense if she's a Maiar. In Lord of the Rings after his fight with the Balrog, Gandalf encounters "nameless things" that Sauron doesn't know about and that are older than him that Gandalf doesn't even want to speak of. Again that doesn't sound like Maiar. My impression has always been that Tolkien always meant for their to be other "spirits" in the world separate from the Ainur and the Children. The History of Middle-Earth series gives us a lot of variations, and Tolkien's ideas were still evolving late in life. We don't know what he would have settled on if had lived to write the Silmarillion himself, a fact that his son has freely admitted. I agree, though I will point out that Tolkien was definitely working on a definitive version of the Silmarillion and some versions of stories are more "official" than others.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 15, 2014 03:27
|
|
|
redshirt posted:Yeah, I didn't mean like a D&D level power measurement (though no doubt D&D is based on exactly this story), but rather Sauron must have known the risk he was taking by creating the Rings as such. He obviously thought it was worth it since he did it, but I wonder about his own calculations - he must have been doing some kind of cost-benefit analysis. Heh. Like, literally if I put X percent of myself in these Rings I'll lose Y percent of my own vitality. Sauron was a captive at the time he made the rings. He basically was a huge dick while working under Morgoth and then when that poo poo all got settled he was put under watch. He fooled them into thinking he was "reformed" and made the ring in secret specifically so that he could get his dark lord thing going on again. I suspect he felt it was perhaps the only chance he had to get back on the old dark and shady side of things and probably didn't care too much about how much of himself he was putting into the ring if it meant his freedom.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 27, 2014 15:45
|
|
|
Honestly all that is fun to think about at times but jesus sometimes I just want a good fantasy book instead of pretending it's a real mythological text and all these cool things didn't really happen in a magical fantasy world.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 27, 2014 16:12
|
|
|
BatteredFeltFedora posted:Nah, Sauron faked repentance when the Host of the Valar overthrew Morgoth but refused to go to Valinor and escaped in short order and went into hiding. He had already established his stronghold in Mordor when he disguised himself as Annatar and went to the Elves to teach them how to forge Rings of Power. That was about SA 1500. Dang you're right I thought, haven't read that in awhile Omnomnomnivore posted:The great thing about Tolkien is you can do both. Dude thought out a whole fake textual history of his stories, and used that to justify his revisions to the Hobbit and whatnot, but would have wanted everyone to just take the story at face value, at least at first. Yeah and I think it is cool that there is that extra layer to it all but I guess I get antsy when it gets to the point where people like "yes but see the REAL story of the LOTRs is this and Gandalf was a tyrant and the elves are Nazi's  " (not saying anyone here is doing that).I think it can just be looked at in distinct ways rather than one view invalidating the other. And yeah Ainulindale definitely reminded me of Genesis retold in a slightly different way
|
|
#
¿
Mar 27, 2014 17:03
|
|
|
Not sure where exactly that quote is from but as mentioned before a lot of stuff was never really finalized as the "definitive version" and we have a lot of information from Tolkien's notes and letters, but much of it is him working out ideas or things he changed later or meant to change later.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 28, 2014 15:07
|
|
|
Where are all the women orcs
|
|
#
¿
Mar 28, 2014 17:10
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ Apr 27, 2024 07:18 |
|
|
rypakal posted:Saruman's orcs were very specifically orcs bred with humans and the logistics of that are either hilarious or deeply disturbing. I have almost entirely allowed the movie version to become my mental image of the how Saruman's orcs were created. I kind of assume that mix was done like through test tube magic or something and not what would probably actually be rape now that I think about it even slightly because even if there are female orcs I'm guessing normal human men wouldn't be all into that Levitate fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Mar 28, 2014 |
|
#
¿
Mar 28, 2014 21:37
|
|