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Anshu posted:I don't know of any writing by Tolkien commenting directly on the afterlives (or lack thereof) of orcs specifically; however, if we take the speculation in the published Silmarillion to be accurate, that orcs are ultimately of Elvish origins, then this passage from Laws and Customs of the Eldar would seem to apply: Some of those unbodied fëa which had succumbed to the control of evil in the Third Age were sent by the Witch-King of Angmar to inhabit the bodies of great Men of Arnor and its successor kingdoms that were buried in barrows. It's likely that happened in earlier ages too but I don't think anything was written about it - maybe Sauron took the techniques that Morgoth had used to make Werewolves, Vampires etc. and adapted them? I like the idea of healed Orcs. I've had a thing in my head for years about a group of Uruks and other Orcs, and maybe a few trolls, who escaped after the destruction of the Ring and Sauron's final defeat. They'd be trying to make an honest go of it as a society and would prize their freedom from domination above all else.
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Jan 3, 2024 09:20
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If the same thing happens to Orcs as happens to Elves when they die then it is in fact a moral imperative to kill them as quickly as possible to send them to the Halls of Mandos where their tortured souls can be healed of the trauma of being born an Orc. Grab a sword and let's get at 'er. You're really doing them a favor! (I feel gross having typed that.)
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Jan 4, 2024 05:25
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Anshu posted:That's a good point, so I will amend my earlier post to say that, absent necromantic interference by the likes of Morgoth, Sauron, or the Witch-King, orcs of each Kindred would be summoned to the section of Mandos prepared for that Kindred, with the possibility of refusing the summons. My previous post covers what happens to Elvish orcs; Mannish orcs could I suspect refuse the summons but would not be able to linger unbodied for long before departing the circles of the world; and of Dwarvish orcs, we know too little about the normal Dwarvish post-life arrangements to say anything with certainty. The Elves thought the Dwarves returned to the stone after death, but the Dwarves thought that they had their own special wing of the Halls of Mandos where Aulë collected them until the end of the world. They'll all be the helping Aulë and the other Valar create the new, unfallen Arda that everyone will appreciate more because they saw how bad the first version went.
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Jan 4, 2024 08:22
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Posted elsewhere but it seems applicable to our current topic:Sentient Data posted:I couldn't find somewhere other than discord to upload this without jumping through a thousand hoops, so this will probably expire at some point
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Jan 5, 2024 03:54
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Bruceski posted:Sauron forged it himself in secret didn't he? The wearers of the Three heard the final incantation when he spoke it, which is how anybody except Sauron knows the famous couplet at all. Nobody knew it was inscribed on the Ring itself except Saruman and Gandalf reading Isildur's description of it, which included a reproduction of the inscription but not a translation (because Isildur didn't know Black Speech). As for whether they heard Sauron's voice in BS, I would assume so. The translation we get is said to be "rough", and also I doubt Sauron would think that an Elven tongue would be suitable for such an evil working as the creation of the Ring to bind and dominate other wills. You'd pretty much have to do that in a language made for wickedness.
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Jan 10, 2024 09:32
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Alhazred posted:But is he a bear that is sometimes human or a human that is sometimes a bear. Yes.
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Feb 6, 2024 09:13
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Mike N Eich posted:I also found it very challenging dealing with the Valar and their aloofness from Middle-Earth when I read the Silmarillion. The best way I found to deal with my internal conflict was to really consider the Valar closer to the Greek Gods, with all their faults and mistakes, rather than Catholic type Angels or Gods - who are all good and all knowing. Hey, they were offered the chance to come West and they refused, or changed their minds on the way. It's on their heads. (Yes, certain of the Valar's decisions do cause them to come across as monstrously apathetic and this is one of them, as well as not even bothering to check on Men and leaving them entirely under Morgoth's power.)
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Feb 8, 2024 19:20
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Eriador is either Sindarin or a Sylvan Elf word (depending on which of two notes from Tolkien on the etymology of the word you are reading) that means "Lonely/Isolated Land". The Hobbit uses the term "Lone-lands" for the same area, or the part of it east of the Shire, but not in the original printing. It was added in the 1966 revision.
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Feb 12, 2024 08:04
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Given Tolkien's whole thing about how tragedy makes things more beautiful and worthwhile in the end a Vala of grief and mourning couldn't not be one of the heavy hitters.
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Feb 15, 2024 15:55
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Vanadium posted:Given how the temptations around the Silmarils work out for Doriath and Sirion, really Morgoth was doing everybody a favor by taking them and hiding them deep under the earth (on his head) for so long. It's all Beren's fault for bringing one back home. The Nauglamír was dragon-treasure, from the horde that Glaurung seized with Nargothrond. Putting the Silmaril in it was never going to lead anywhere good, but in fairness I don't think at that point anybody had dealt with dragons long enough to know it would be a problem. Plus the Second and Third Kinslayings were Fëanorian oath bullshit, that's not the fault of the Silmarils themselves. Fuckin' Fëanor.
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Feb 16, 2024 00:30
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Data Graham posted:Way far away from Beleriand. Dong feng song dao shou yi ding hui bao Anything goes!
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Feb 16, 2024 20:43
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Arc Hammer posted:
Maglor is still unaccounted for, you know. She'd better watch her back.
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Feb 16, 2024 22:55
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DeimosRising posted:Why isn’t his name annata then smart guy Because he doesn't just bring one gift, duh!
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Feb 19, 2024 17:33
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https://twitter.com/gorangligovic/status/1760073878842351639 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wanderer_(Old_English_poem))  
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Feb 21, 2024 01:42
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A couple interesting videos where an artist attempts to portray some of Tolkien's nonhuman creations using only the descriptions in the text: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oKxmaO-CIs He does a balrog in the second part of this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aj-cS3k-yTE
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Feb 21, 2024 04:59
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I rather like this one by Joe Hickman, which leans heavily into the man-shape. Very "angel of fire".
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Feb 26, 2024 22:43
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Plan A was that the Seven* and the Nine, and any other Greater Rings out there were supposed to be his tools for subverting the Elves and destroying them anyway. It was only after the wearers of the Three (which were not part of the original plan, but Sauron thought he could use them too) noticed the forging of the Ruling Ring that Plan A went sideways. I'm guessing when they realized his intentions they told everyone to take their rings off ASAP, and whether or not everyone did Sauron's intent to dominate the wearers was immediately known and they could resist him to a degree. So he was forced to switch to Plan B: invade and destroy Eregion and the remnant Noldor and seize the Rings. Plan B worked like a charm, and then he gave the Nine and the Seven to Men and Dwarves to bring them under his control. The Seven didn't quite work because Dwarves gonna Dwarf, but the Nine turning great kings of Men into powerful undead Ring-wraiths under his control worked perfectly. The Nazgűl were a very powerful tool over the centuries. We know that Angmar was the tool by which Arnor was destroyed, and that wouldn't have worked out without it being a Nazgűl project. And along the way it also helped end the line of Kings of Gondor, so hey: bonus. We're not really told explicitly (any more than we're told what the Blue Wizards got up to) but I can't imagine the Nazgűl weren't also key in bringing the rest of the nations of Arda under Sauron's heel as well. We're meant to assume that north-western Middle-Earth was the only place still putting up any significant resistance. So while the whole Ring project did indeed have its failures - fairly major ones, even - I wouldn't say it was an unmitigated disaster for Sauron from the word "go". He was able to leverage it into some real power over the long term. * I'm not sure where it's mentioned or if it's meant to be true at any point, but the Dwarves have a tradition that the Ring given to the House of Durin was not given by Sauron but by Celebrimbor, so it was less under his control than the others. EDIT: Beaten, should have refreshed. Lemniscate Blue fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Feb 27, 2024 |
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Feb 27, 2024 19:35
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skasion posted:Yes, highly likely. The Akallabeth says that three of the nine were of Numenorean ancestry. So six weren’t. I recall reading that Tolkien explicitly and deliberately didn't want to tell the story of the Nazgűl, so he never did. Can't find a cite on that though. The only one who even got a name was Khaműl the Easterling.
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Feb 27, 2024 19:46
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NikkolasKing posted:I feel sorry for Saruman. He made a genuine effort for a long time to try and defeat Sauron, but there literally was no way to do it. You can't destroy the Ring and you can't defeat him militarily. The only hope for Middle-earth was a miracle. There's a running theme throughout Tolkien's work that the intelligent, practical choice is the one that leads you astray to damnation and the path of salvation is to act on faith that somebody's got your back and are doing their part. Whether that's the Valar, a couple Hobbits on a death march, or Eru Illúvatar his own self - steadfast hope in the face of a hopeless situation is the highest virtue. It doesn't even always work out (respect to Fingolfin, you magnificent badass) but it's always the right choice anyway.
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Feb 27, 2024 19:53
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sleep with the vicious posted:Did Saruman know who had the three elven rings? Specifically did he know Gandalf had one? It's not exactly going to be tricky to suss out that the legendarily wise rulers of the four remaining Elven-realms in Middle-Earth are the most obvious choice to hold the Three, especially since at least three of them have some sort of magical effect acting on or associated with them (and the Grey Havens might, even if we're not really told about it). Which one of the four didn't have a ring might have been the hardest to deduce, and Círdan secretly giving his to Gandalf probably made it a much trickier puzzle - Elrond and Galadriel are obvious but which of the two others, Círdan or Thranduil, has the third? Trick question, it's neither! I doubt Saruman ever figured that out. I wonder if he was hoping that the ring he made in an attempt to duplicate the Great Rings (he calls himself "Saruman Ring-Maker" when he's trying to get Gandalf on his team) would help him see through the ability of a Ring-wearer to hide their Ring from the perception of others, as Galadriel explains to Frodo. Obviously it doesn't work, or he'd have spotted Narya on Gandalf's finger, which would have answered that question, and also royally pissed him off given his jealousy of Gandalf.
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Feb 28, 2024 20:46
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The reason I feel that Saruman, Sauron, and anyone else trying to logic it out would have had to evaluate Thranduil as a potential bearer of one of the Three is that the Grey Havens under Círdan don't seem to show the kind of magical preservation and protection that Lothlorien and Imladris do under Galadriel and Elrond. It's possible that it is and that we're never told of it because the narrative doesn't visit the place, but Saruman having become the foremost expert on Ring-lore among the Wise and Sauron having written the OS that they run would have had to know that those effects were due to what the Three were made to do, even if neither of them had ever laid hands on them. What other Elven domain does show some kind of magical protection? The Woodland Realm. Celebrimbor choosing to give Thranduil one of the Three would have been a surprising choice, but given the evidence it's a possibility. The point is, nobody other than Elrond, Galadriel, Gandalf, and Círdan knows for sure. Anybody else has to take that possibility into account, even if just to investigate. zoux posted:So Sauron couldn't tell that three of the members of the White Council who drove him from Dol Guldur were wearing the three elvish rings of power? This is a good point! I don't know. Maybe he felt their presence among the forces massed to drive him out (it wasn't just a handful of demigods cosplaying as an adventuring party). Maybe he couldn't perceive them because he didn't have the One at the time, and his connection to the Three is weak or nonexistent without it? The Three can be safely used when Sauron doesn't have the Ring, after all. Lemniscate Blue fucked around with this message at 23:06 on Feb 28, 2024 |
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Feb 28, 2024 23:01
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Phy posted:I guess we've discovered the Poe's Orangutan for Tolkien fans That implies that there's any argument that Tolkien scholarship and fandom have ever gotten tired of having.
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Feb 28, 2024 23:03
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DeimosRising posted:hey guys that speak elf can you explain the etymology of this one One really specialized Palantir.
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Feb 29, 2024 07:59
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Tom Smykowski posted:The true heart and soul is Bilbo burning everyone as he fucks off out of the Shire His birthday presents to everyone are so catty, I love it. Real Housewives of Hobbiton when?
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Mar 8, 2024 16:49
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sweet geek swag posted:That wouldn't be wise, that would be foolish because Frodo would not do that. He knows the Ringwraiths exist. What I think the elves are afraid of is that Frodo's fear might give the Ringwraiths additional power. Of course their blind fear is probably more dangerous, but Gildor doesn't know that Frodo has the Ring. If he did, he would probably realize that Frodo is already expecting the worst. He also trusts Gandalf's judgement, and figures that if the guy wanted Frodo to know he'd have told him. Since Frodo doesn't know what a Black Rider is, Gandalf must think that he'd be better off not knowing. He's willing to help Frodo but not to the extent of possibly messing up a Wizard's plans. He all but says as much, in the proverbial "do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards" line.
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Mar 13, 2024 04:57
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I'm not philosophically opposed to Shiredew Valley but those character designs are weirdly offputting.
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Apr 23, 2024 00:26
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YaketySass posted:Hobbits were the original cottagecore guys Unironically this. The visual aesthetic of the Shire in the LotR and Hobbit movies was one of the things that has influenced the whole cottagecore thing in the years since. It's not fundamentally different from the many, many earlier incarnations of the back-to-the-land dream of urban/suburban white folks who think subsistence farming is somehow easy (including a notable vulnerability to Nazi blood-and-soil bullshit), but it's got round doors this time.
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Apr 24, 2024 17:02
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Oracle posted:Is it really subsistence farming if you’ve got markets and trades and pipe weed and money and social classes though? skasion posted:Cottage core people aren’t exactly dreaming of grubbing in the dirt for potatoes either lol. Nah but they pretend to be to sell their influencer bullshit to all the fools who think it's the way white people were meant to live.
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Apr 25, 2024 04:40
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Just now. You might be mixing him up with Bernard Cribbins (like I did briefly) who died two years ago.
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May 5, 2024 18:28
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zoux posted:Hard to overstate how good McKellan was as Gandalf. Two of my favorite moments in the trilogy are unspoken acting on his part: the shift from utter relief to wire-taut apprehension when Frodo says "...wait" and the mix of admiration, sorrow, and sympathy on his face when Frodo announces he will bear the ring to Mt Doom. I've been catching up on the Exploring Lord of the Rings podcast and just got to this point in the Council of Elrond, and Corey Olsen went on a somewhat long diatribe about how he loves the moment and how it shows McKellan's Gandalf has such compassion for Frodo &c, but it's at odds with the book because Frodo standing forth like that is the culmination of a lot of hard work and scheming on Gandalf's part and no way would he be sad... And then not five minutes later he makes an explicit reference to Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane and how Frodo's internal feelings reflect that the Ring quest is something that he knew was the right thing and that he's really known that it would be his task from the start, so he's doing it even though he dreads the certain consequences... And I'm drat near banging on my steering wheel going "SOMEBODY SAY SOMETHING! SOMEBODY MAKE THE CONNECTION!" Man, I'll be glad to get to the end of the CoE run of episodes.
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May 6, 2024 21:03
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