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Dieting Hippo posted:How is this issue solved other than straight up removing the female character/rescue plot, or making the females males (and/or vice versa for the heroes)? She's not out to 'fix' video games and 'solve' their problems, she's just discussing certain game trends from a feminist perspective.
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Mar 12, 2013 02:11
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Young Freud posted:Even before "Other M", Samus was being depowered and sexualized in the Zero Mission and Smash Bros. Brawl by being stripped of her iconic and remarkably unfeminine Power Suit in favor for the skin-tight Zero Suit and making her a slim blonde. I certain Sarkeesian will bring that up in the Fighting gently caress Toy segment. To be fair in her first appearance you can see her in a bikini, and in quite a few of the games they show her all pretty in special artwork if you beat the game fast enough. Though again, to be fair, all these sexualisations of her character were exclusively for the purpose of fan-service. As a silly reward for beating the game, as an extra-mode, or in a cameo appearance. In Other M, they actually re-wrote her character in canon. Calico Heart has a new favorite as of 02:20 on Mar 12, 2013 |
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Mar 12, 2013 02:17
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:She's not out to 'fix' video games and 'solve' their problems, she's just discussing certain game trends from a feminist perspective. /\/\/\ edit: Well yeah, there's definitely been an aspect that specifically makes a big deal out of the fact that Samus is a girl, from the reveal in the first, to Super Metroid's death animation. Is there any particular reason why she's near naked under there? Not really. Furthermore, is it really that difficult to see the way to avoid this is to stop using the trope in your games? All that she really needs to do is make a strong case for the fact that there is in fact a problem, as that's the main obstacle, as evidenced by the furious denial and detraction against this video series for day one. Once general perception changes, the problems can start to be fixed. Maluco Marinero has a new favorite as of 02:24 on Mar 12, 2013 |
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Mar 12, 2013 02:20
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Jedit posted:Yeah, I noticed the cherry-picked examples as well. The other egregious example of cherry-picking was that Sarkeesian spends over 20 minutes ragging almost exclusively on Nintendo for their lack of female protagonists, and never once mentions that Nintendo were in fact the first game company to release a major game with a female protagonist - namely, Metroid. Metroid from Smash Bros. got his own game?!
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Mar 12, 2013 02:22
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Xenocidebot posted:Not to poo poo the thread up with this, but Samus isn't a positive for Nintendo here. At all. She's a faceless suit of armor any time she's doing something of note (or to quote a 90s review, "the Transformer-like suit she wears could just as easily contain a large centipede; it's hardly a breakthrough for feminism"), and is only distinctly female when the player's being congratulated for success or punished for failure. Sarkeesian's actually going to go into that. Young Freud posted:Even before "Other M", Samus was being depowered and sexualized in the Zero Mission and Smash Bros. Brawl by being stripped of her iconic and remarkably unfeminine Power Suit in favor for the skin-tight Zero Suit and making her a slim blonde. I certain Sarkeesian will bring that up in the Fighting gently caress Toy segment. Wait, though - so it's bad that you play her in a big bulky suit because it defeminizes her and she might as well be a centipede, but in Zero Mission and Smash Bros., where you play her without said suit (and not in a "reward" capacity but as a player character with powerful skills, weapons, abilities, etc.), she's a "gently caress toy" because she's wearing something less revealing than people wear jogging? It seems like no matter what way Nintendo were to go, it will piss one of you off for being sexist. Is Ripley defeminized when in the bulky yellow power loader, but oversexualized when she's running around with giant machine guns in a tank top? No argument about the terrible sexism that is Other M. EDIT: I really liked the Fusion suit. A little more overtly feminine without having visible cleavage or anything stupid. Also, that game's narrative manages to be about her personal relationships AND the baby Metroid without being insipid.  EDIT 2: Snowglobe of Doom posted:Yeah Samus and Ripley are pretty much exactly the same. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metroid_(video_game) posted:Ridley Scott's 1979 horror film Alien was described by [series co-director] Sakamoto as a "huge influence" on Metroid after the game's world had been created. Xenocidebot posted:
MjolnirMan has a new favorite as of 04:24 on Mar 12, 2013 |
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Mar 12, 2013 02:39
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MjolnirMan posted:Wait, though - so it's bad that you play her in a big bulky suit because it defeminizes her and she might as well be a centipede, but in Zero Mission and Smash Bros., where you play her without said suit (and not in a "reward" capacity but as a player character with powerful skills, weapons, abilities, etc.), she's a "gently caress toy" because she's wearing something less revealing than people wear jogging? Welp, you got us! Turns out sexism is over, wrap it up everybody.
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Mar 12, 2013 02:53
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Neo Rasa posted:Metroid from Smash Bros. got his own game?! ... uhhhhhh.... My sarcasm meter must not be working because I can't tell if you are are being serious or not.
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Mar 12, 2013 02:54
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MjolnirMan posted:It seems like no matter what way Nintendo were to go, it will piss one of you off for being sexist. Is Ripley defeminized when in the bulky yellow power loader, but oversexualized when she's running around with giant machine guns in a tank top? Yeah Samus and Ripley are pretty much exactly the same.  Jesus loving christ. 
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Mar 12, 2013 03:03
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MjolnirMan posted:Wait, though - so it's bad that you play her in a big bulky suit because it defeminizes her and she might as well be a centipede, MjolnirMan posted:but in Zero Mission and Smash Bros., where you play her without said suit (and not in a "reward" capacity but as a player character with powerful skills, weapons, abilities, etc.), she's a "gently caress toy" because she's wearing something less revealing than people wear jogging?  I want to know where you live that people jog in poo poo more revealing than this. 
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Mar 12, 2013 03:03
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Xenocidebot posted:
...of SCIENCE! posted:Welp, you got us! Turns out sexism is over, wrap it up everybody.
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Mar 12, 2013 03:04
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...of SCIENCE! posted:Welp, you got us! Turns out sexism is over, wrap it up everybody. Pointing out contradictory opinions means you hate feminism! Everyone's out to get me! Exactly what use is there in ragging on poo poo for half an hour without providing any sort of alternatives or means to fix a problem anyway? You're just preaching to the goddamn choir.
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Mar 12, 2013 03:05
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Lady Naga posted:Pointing out contradictory opinions means you hate feminism! Everyone's out to get me! They're not contradictory at all unless you think that they're mutually-exclusive. Having a "strong" female character who is strong because she is effectively genderless and having a "strong" female character whose entire appearance (and, in Brawl's case, weaponry  ) is over-sexualized and is still subservient to men and emotionally fragile (M:OM) are both problematic in their own way.And criticism for the sake of critical thought is totally a thing, dude. Most film critics don't tell you how the movie ought to have been, but they can give you insight into the film that you might not have noticed yourself. ...of SCIENCE! has a new favorite as of 03:15 on Mar 12, 2013 |
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Mar 12, 2013 03:09
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She isn't preaching to the choir. The choir is just listening to her preaching to some other people.
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Mar 12, 2013 03:11
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So a friend of mine just linked me this Craigslist ad, and I guess this thread helped me develop a second sense about these things because I immediately went, "This is probably a terrible Kickstarter." And it is!. Besides the fact that everything looks like below average Deviantart art with a whole lot of "What's wrong with your faaaaace", it "only" made $2000. I am not sure what kind of game you could get for $2000, so I looked back at the ad to see what they would be paying their voice actors. quote:We are looking for some voice actors to record the battlecries, catchphrases, and some plot-critical and romantic dialogue of the main characters of the game. In return, we will be offering credits and provide meals, snacks and refreshments during the recording sessions and paying each voice actor royalties. That is, we'll be giving out a percentage of the profits after the material costs of producing the game, calculated and paid quarterly. Those royalties will surely be substantial, especially for a game that has been in development for about 2 years, seeing as how the Kickstarter ended in 2011. Oh, yeah, the game seems to be focused on having romantic relationships with teenagers.
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Mar 12, 2013 03:12
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Dieting Hippo posted:You are right, she does specify "main series." Still, it is one of the examples of role-reversal for stereotypically helpless princesses. Even if it does have the whole "mood" system (women-are-hysterical-dames trope), she is still a strong female lead rescuing a helpless male. It may only be one game out of the millions Nintendo has pumped out, but it was a baby step in the right direction. The game never made it out that she was weak for having emotions, that it was wrong to express them, or that they were a hindrance, you were literally required to emote to progress. That's pretty drat empowering that a game was based around using your emotions (as a woman) to save the day and beat the bad guy rather than suppressing them. She didn't have to become a burly macho man to be the hero, she could be herself mood swings and all without being punished for it. Who gives a poo poo about her saving a "helpless male" when the game was basically centered around "it's okay to feel things and express them to make progress on your quest!"
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Mar 12, 2013 03:15
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Careful folks. You dont want to end up on gamers.text
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Mar 12, 2013 03:27
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Xenocidebot posted:
Every day in los angeles is spandex camel toes and sports bras. Samus might as well be muslim.
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Mar 12, 2013 03:32
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GrandpaPants posted:So a friend of mine just linked me this Craigslist ad, and I guess this thread helped me develop a second sense about these things because I immediately went, "This is probably a terrible Kickstarter." And it is!. Forget a five-head, this guy's got a six-head: 
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Mar 12, 2013 03:45
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OK, we get it. Nintendo is flawless and your silly hobby is totally harmless. Now post some stupid KS: "Pay for our drinks, you guys!" http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/486471557/tiggy-the-tigerator-20?ref=recently_launched Speaking of silly hobbies, I give you "Hurgers and fries": http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1647361233/nostalgia-arcade?ref=recently_launched What is it with terrible artists and KS?: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/pierre-bernard/18-x-24-and-other-sizes?ref=recently_launched DoctorPresident has a new favorite as of 04:06 on Mar 12, 2013 |
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Mar 12, 2013 03:49
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DrBouvenstein posted:Forget a five-head, this guy's got a six-head: He's actually pretty famous at his day job, you guys: 
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Mar 12, 2013 03:54
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Oh boy, sexism debate! Not sure why this has become such a hot topic lately, but being in game development myself it seems a lot less complex than most of these discussions make it out to be. I think there are really only two things that often go unconsidered: 1) A developer or publisher is trying to make money. I am certain Nintendo has considered a Peach-themed game. The question: all things equal, will a Mario game or a Peach game make more revenue? "Well that was an easy decision", they probably concluded 2 seconds later. 2) The majority of men like sexy women, and they're also making the games with sexy women in them. Truly a coincidence for the ages. How can we change it? Would a reasonable question be "should we change it"? It's not surprising that the two genders like different kinds of games, with overlap being the minority. Whether a developer decides to make a game targeted towards men or woman should, similarly to film and books, be up to them. And picking on Nintendo about equality, of all companies, seems like a thinly veiled personal agenda. But since this is about awful Kickstarters (and there was nothing particularly awful about that Tropes video), here: The most specific Mary Sue in children's book history Pay me to write anonymous notes to people you know Help me complete my Tarot set depicting CHILDREN STOLEN BY ANIMALS A poster that very loosely explains how to design a poster 54 seconds of engine revving. For just $265k there's plenty more where THAT came from! This is not how you promote your sexuality I live somewhere so beautiful that I want to photograph it black and white with everyone's face blurred out Frat jerks need your money to PAAAAARRTTYYY Do you like disc golf, but hate holding things in your hands? Do you ever wish that your iphone could blend in with a field full of rocks? Project of my Lyfe!!! [sic] Chewbot has a new favorite as of 08:07 on Mar 12, 2013 |
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Mar 12, 2013 04:54
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Alan Smithee posted:Careful folks. You dont want to end up on gamers.text The problem I'm seeing is that people want to talk about this and when given the opportunity, will do so. However, most venues tend to get filled with MRAs decrying a false "misandry", which requires moderation to keep that signal to noise down. It's happened when we tried to discuss the Tropes vs. Women in Games and is the reason why Sarkeesian shut down comments. However, I wish she used some of her pledge money to create a forum where people could discuss the topics she raises without it getting flooded by MRAs.
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Mar 12, 2013 05:30
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Xenocidebot posted:That in and of itself isn't a bad thing. It just means she isn't a Strong Female Character because she isn't a character, she's a scantily clad mascot for the player's actual avatar (the armor) during moments of success or failure. In games like Prime, where she's never flaunted whatsoever, there's no sexism, and that's fine, but you can't call it some triumph for feminism because her being female is irrelevant and barely shown. I don't mind her being a female Doomguy, and I wish she was more often, but that's not a feminist thing, that's a neutral thing. Isn't that the fundamental success of feminism? Gender being completely irrelevant because men and woman are equal? The fact that she is a female and it doesn't matter in the slightest, I would argue, makes her a very strong female character. Now come here and get your own Ditty (or thing)!!! Bad clip art included!!! http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rickyjfico/rickys-ditties-and-things-to-inspire-amuse-and-sti?ref=home_location
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Mar 12, 2013 07:14
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Chewbot posted:Not sure why this has become such a hot topic lately, but being in game development myself it seems a lot less complex than most of these discussions make it out to be. There are really only two things you need to know: So to sum up your counter arguments: "I don't even know why people would want to talk about this," "misogyny is profitable", "gaming has always been like that so just accept it," "people who point out the misogyny endemic in this industry must have a hidden personal agenda" and "I don't have a problem with the way games are so I don't think anyone else should either." That's ... not exactly helpful to the discussion at hand. It sounds more like you're trying to circumvent the debate entirely rather than engage any points that Sarkeesian raised.
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Mar 12, 2013 07:19
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:So to sum up your counter arguments: "I don't even know why people would want to talk about this," "misogyny is profitable", "gaming has always been like that so just accept it," "people who point out the misogyny endemic in this industry must have a hidden personal agenda" and "I don't have a problem with the way games are so I don't think anyone else should either." Heh, I knew somebody would immediately claim that my personal opinions on the matter must be 100% wrong. "I don't know why anyone would want to talk about this" is in no way similar to "Not sure why this has become a hot topic lately". "Mysogeny is profitable" is in no way similar to "A publisher decides what to make based on revenue", which has been my experience in the industry. And by the way, making a product with a demographic does not make it misogynistic. Misogyny is when you HATE women, not when you want to RESCUE them from dragons. Don't throw terms like misogyny around casually. "Gaming has always been this way so let's accept it" is in no way similar to "men who are making the games like looking at sexy women", which has also been my experience in the industry. Let me know the next time you have to rework the concept for the base female model because literally 4 different EA managers have 4 different ideas about what her body type should be, and you're just a salaried artist. "People who point out mysoginy must have a personal agenda" is in no way similar to "Picking on Nintendo seems like a personal agenda". Nintendo is a company who caters to children and primarily gender-neutral audiences. If you're attacking them first while drowning in a sea of games filled with strippers and hookers, maybe it's because of you, not them. "I don't have a problem with it, so nobody else should either" is the opposite of asking if "Should we change it?" is a reasonable question. As for addressing Sarkeesian's issues, I watched the video and saw that she was very even-handed and made very few subjective opinions. She summarized the video asking "Why can't we have more girl-centric games from franchises like Mario and Zelda?" I responded with what I believe are the reasons we don't, regardless of my personal feelings about the topic. I also stated that I'm in favor of the developer deciding what kind of game they want to make, which is the opposite of circumventing the debate. The point of my post was asking whether there is really an issue here, instead of assuming that there is one. Why go for the straw man on literally every single point? You twisted my frankly benign statements into the same category as the psychopaths who clearly want to murder her and leave her in a ditch. At least I posted a poo poo-ton of terrible kickstarters because I felt bad about going on a tangent. Chewbot has a new favorite as of 08:38 on Mar 12, 2013 |
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Mar 12, 2013 08:04
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 RECAP TIME Here's some updates on a bunch of crowdfunding projects that were discussed in the threads these last few weeks. 3Doodler the pen that allows you to draw in 3D is currently at $2,198,840 (over 7000% successful, their original goal was only $30k) with nearly 2 weeks left. The Kickstarter to buy a 3Doodler pen (and create the world's first 3Doodler animation) has less than three days to go and is almost 600% successful. The replica Noah's Ark zoo guys have exactly 40 days and 40 nights left to raise the remaining 99.96% of their $1.5m goal. The Cyanide & Happiness Show has more than doubled their $250k goal and still have 5 days left in their project. They've added a buttload of animated shorts to their season already and they're getting closer and closer to the "The C&H guys will joust to the death" stretch goal every day. The 4chan drinking game is currently experiencing technical difficulties: quote:The Internet Meme Drinking Game is the subject of an intellectual property dispute and is currently unavailable.  The horrible Gender Bender DNA Twister Extreme has gained another $10k in pledges since we last checked in on it. A bunch of the characters are now furries.  Speaking of furries, the Skkrambled™: The Official ChikkinChamps™ Trading Card Game has eight days to go and is failing horribly at $123/$56k. The obvious camwhore Indiegogo project has gained an extra couple hundred dollars worth of pledges and still has a month to go. The Death of 'Superman Lives!" documentary about the failed Nic Cage/Tim Burton Superman film successfully ended a day ago with $115,110/$98,000.  How to lunchman: Diabetic cooking Vol 1 - Mediterranean ended with only a single "gently caress you" pledge of $1.09. The abyssmal DMW Black Sheep of Avalon - Christian Novel failed at $311/$4,800. Turbocharge your wireless router with an Android™ upgrade (apps for your router!) still has four days to go but is over 300% successful so far. The patty pro plus for burgers and more tool to help make patty-making The I'm marrying my soulmate! Indiegogo project where a woman was trying to raise $12.5k to somehow force her boyfriend to propose to her which went wrong when the internet laughed at her shittiness and then went right when he proposed anyway is going wrong again since they've only raised $187 in a month. They've still got a month to go but it looks like they'll have to hold the reception at Burger King. The Batman Dead End; A Ten Year Retrospective documentary about "the impact and influence" of a fan film some guys made a decade ago is sitting at $7,755 of their $12.5k goal with 16 days to go Hull Breach! is less than a thousand dollars shy of its goal and has five days left. Starlight Sparkle Gift Box (glitter-encrusted soap boxes} still hasn't attracted a single pledge. The pig-shaped BBQ sauce bottle project is at $2k/$42k with 24 days to go.
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Mar 12, 2013 08:23
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Chewbot posted:"Mysogeny is profitable" is in no way similar to "A publisher decides what to make based on revenue", which has been my experience in the industry. And by the way, making a product with a demographic does not make it misogynistic. Misogyny is when you HATE women, not when you want to RESCUE them from dragons. Don't throw terms like misogyny around casually. Except the whole point of the Damsel in Distress trope is that it reduces women to objects to be won. You could replace the Damsel with a pot of gold in a lot of games and, other than a bit of screaming for help, the story doesn`t change. quote:"People who point out mysoginy must have a personal agenda" is in no way similar to "Picking on Nintendo seems like a personal agenda". Nintendo is a company who caters to children and primarily gender-neutral audiences. If you're attacking them first while drowning in a sea of games filled with strippers and hookers, maybe it's because of you, not them. As for the "Should we change?" question, it`s a fair one but the answer is absoloutely yes. Perceptions of women as helpless and as objects is pervasive through pretty much all media types and influences people`s attitudes and perceptions of themselves and others. You can say that it`s a reflection of society, but if media starts to change, people`s perceptions change too.
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Mar 12, 2013 12:06
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:The horrible Gender Bender DNA Twister Extreme has gained another $10k in pledges since we last checked in on it. A bunch of the characters are now furries. Holy poo poo they actually managed to find something to add to make it worse 
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Mar 12, 2013 12:16
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Aaronicon posted:Holy poo poo they actually managed to find something to add to make it worse I saw the catgirls at first and thought it wasn't that bad, but then I scrolled down to the muscular green weretiger with tits and lost it. I can't believe stuff like that still exists outside of 2003  .
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Mar 12, 2013 12:46
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DoctorPresident posted:OK, we get it. Nintendo is flawless and your silly hobby is totally harmless. How the hell did the last one become a 'famous' artist? - did he pay people to like his poo poo....
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Mar 12, 2013 12:46
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All I really want right now is a Kickstarter that somehow results in my never having to hear about feminism interacting with video games ever again.
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Mar 12, 2013 14:45
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Volcott posted:All I really want right now is a Kickstarter that somehow results in my never having to hear about feminism interacting with video games ever again. Ladies refrain, male industry only 
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Mar 12, 2013 14:52
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Oh boy, Civitas update time! And this time, they nailed it! Thankfully, they got their poo poo together and really do the proper team introductions. We even see more of their working environment, and an actually really smooth-looking alpha. http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1584821767/civitas-plan-develop-and-manage-the-city-of-your-d/posts ...Wait sorry, that was my iguana rolling over the keyboard just right now. Basically the video is the same two guys as always (though they do fill up the screen for five), we have a yellow-tinted wall and a blank Windows desktop poking into the picture. Let me summarize the content for you: " " And as always, the main comment section is amazing - full of people that will defend Brandon Smith and his elite developers to the death. The internet is truly a crazy place.
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Mar 12, 2013 17:10
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:
How to Lunchman still has 25 days to go, DON'T COUNT HIM OUT YET
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Mar 12, 2013 17:18
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MjolnirMan posted:Wait, though - so it's bad that you play her in a big bulky suit because it defeminizes her and she might as well be a centipede, but in Zero Mission and Smash Bros., where you play her without said suit (and not in a "reward" capacity but as a player character with powerful skills, weapons, abilities, etc.), she's a "gently caress toy" because she's wearing something less revealing than people wear jogging? I guess the happy middle ground would be something that doesn't completely mask her femininity, but which is not so revealing that it renders her into a sex toy? Fem Shep might be a good example (although there are plenty of BAD examples in the ME series). You're not going to mistake her for a man, but it isn't exactly a tech demo for a breast physics engine either.
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Mar 12, 2013 17:20
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pathetic little tramp posted:How to Lunchman still has 25 days to go, DON'T COUNT HIM OUT YET https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldyRi86kxTk quote:Lunchman Quest - Watch your Weigh Fatty This could be worth the money.
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Mar 12, 2013 17:25
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man thats gross posted:I guess the happy middle ground would be something that doesn't completely mask her femininity, but which is not so revealing that it renders her into a sex toy? Fem Shep might be a good example (although there are plenty of BAD examples in the ME series). You're not going to mistake her for a man, but it isn't exactly a tech demo for a breast physics engine either. A suit that makes it impossible to determine someone's gender is not a problem in and of itself, I personally find suits that have a "normal" male shape and a "special" female shape more of a problem because it makes masculinity into the default and femininity a deviation from that default. You mistake her for a man because gender neutral = man in most peoples minds, and THIS is the problem.
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Mar 12, 2013 17:28
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man thats gross posted:I guess the happy middle ground would be something that doesn't completely mask her femininity, but which is not so revealing that it renders her into a sex toy? Fem Shep might be a good example (although there are plenty of BAD examples in the ME series). You're not going to mistake her for a man, but it isn't exactly a tech demo for a breast physics engine either. I'm trying to be mindful of this turning into an unrelated derail, but I gave major props to Super Metroid and Fusion for doing exactly this - especially in the latter, the suit looks (non-sexually) feminine; she's overtly female and is heavily communicative as someone who happens to be a woman throughout the games, etc. Those do not in any way evince the problematic nature being ascribed to her - she was only a silent gender-ambiguous protagonist in 1, and the only games that are sexist in any way are Other M and (only arguably) SSB. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater; Samus is a fantastic female character in Metroids 1-4, and fine in the Primes (that's 7+ games across two decades).
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Mar 12, 2013 18:08
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MjolnirMan posted:Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater;
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Mar 12, 2013 18:11
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I just think it's funny that even CliffyB, one of the most dudebro game devs out there (Gears of War didn't even have a playable female character until the third game and even then it was just because all the lady gamers were complaining about it) thinks that it's way overdue and that the people who are attacking her are immature. "One man’s 'scammed' is another’s 'shut up and take my money'" is like the perfect encapsulation of how dumb the "this doesn't look like it cost $160,000 to make, scam much?  " argument is.
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Mar 12, 2013 18:14
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