Dungeon World Thread (Messy, Forceful, Stunning)

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > Dungeon World Thread (Messy, Forceful, Stunning)

malkav11: Aug 7, 2009

Ilor posted:

This is actually one of my problems with DW (vice AW proper): it's get just enough of the lovely cruft of D&D to fool people into entirely missing the point of how PbtA games are supposed to work. This game that Azran is in sounds like straight-up fodder for the cat-piss thread.

Yeah, that's my big issue with it too, especially as a gateway into PBTA/other similar storygamish types of things. I think it's probably reasonably solid if you're coming at it from an AW background, but so many people aren't.

# ¿ Feb 17, 2017 18:34

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# ¿ May 17, 2024 19:23

malkav11: Aug 7, 2009

Jimmeeee posted:

What else would people want to see out of a 2e? One-stat Defy Danger seems to be a very common request. A rework to ability scores would be nice too, six seems like too many and needing both a score and a modifier feels sort of archaic.

I would want to see it designed around telling the particular kind of story they associate with D&D instead of trying to emulate D&D itself, because that's not really what the Apocalypse Engine does and it makes Dungeon World kind of awkward.

# ¿ Mar 22, 2017 01:13

malkav11: Aug 7, 2009

quote:

Paladins are Fighters But Stronger And With Cool Moves.

So, accurate to the inspiration then?

# ¿ Mar 31, 2017 01:55

malkav11: Aug 7, 2009

TKIY posted:

I'm about to kick off my first DW campaign and I'm looking forward to the challenge. I've GM'd dozens of campaigns over a few decades but all in hard crunch systems.

With all of the on the fly development of hooks and facts, what tools do you all use to keep track of the ever-growing fiction?

I use Roll20 as a digital tabletop on a TV during our games to handle maps, music, handouts and the like but I'm wondering about a tool for general note keeping and organization which Roll20 isn't great at.

This is pretty much what Obsidian Portal is designed for.

# ¿ Apr 22, 2017 22:57

malkav11: Aug 7, 2009

My experience when doing PBTA has been that the GM move list is most useful as a prompt if you're not sure what to do in a given situation. A lot of times there will be a clear fictionally dictated response, in which case it may or may not fit a given move but it's still probably the way to go. Don't know if that's best practices or not, but it's what's made sense for me.

# ¿ Jan 5, 2018 02:25

malkav11: Aug 7, 2009

kaffo posted:

Please for the love of God try and remind them that moves aren't always something you pick to do, but something the GM tells you to do. My players still occasionally say something like:
"I run at the dragon with my sword and Hack and Slash it" *picks up dice*
"Eh, hold on, so your plan is to run at a dragon and try to stab it... what, in the face? with your cheap rear end iron sword?"
"Yeah, can I roll now?"

While they absolutely shouldn't be just picking moves off a list (or assuming they need to invoke a move for everything they do), it's perfectly legitimate for them to fictionally play towards triggering particular moves, and so it's good to double check intent - I think Apocalypse World 2E has an example, if Dungeon World doesn't. (It's been a while since I read it.)

# ¿ Jan 6, 2018 01:30

malkav11: Aug 7, 2009

kaffo posted:

On unrelated note, if your players are DnD players, they'll 10,000% try to use the list of moves on their sheet as exhaustive, and it's not

You'll need to gently remind them that they don't use moves like they'd use a DnD power. There's a good chance you'll need to persuade them to just describe what their character is doing then you tell them if it triggers a move
This is especially important when they are doing something which the move might describe, but you feel isn't dramatic enough for a roll

I feel like Dungeon World is especially prone to this because it takes so many cues from D&D that the same reflexes get triggered. But it's clearly a broad spectrum issue. Almost none of the PBTA actual plays I've listened to have managed to steer away from "I feel like you should roll dice here so what's the closest move?". Even Austin Walker, who's generally one of the best PBTA GMs I've listened to, has fallen into that particular trap...

# ¿ Apr 5, 2018 01:34

malkav11: Aug 7, 2009

While getting together for explicitly instructive workshopping type stuff sounds like a great idea, I'll also note that it can be helpful to watch/listen to actual play content from experienced GMs when trying to figure out how a game works. Particularly if you can find content from the creators themselves. For Dungeon World you're particularly in luck because one of the two creators, Adam Koebel, has been employed by Roll20 to GM for their Twitch/Youtube channel (and also appears on RollPlay's channel and occasionally other places online) so you can find examples of him running Dungeon World pretty readily. (Not to mention other PBTA games, Burning Wheel, various stripes of D&D, Mage the Ascension, and more.)

# ¿ May 4, 2018 05:14

malkav11: Aug 7, 2009

Nemesis Of Moles posted:

I think those are probably fine ways to be influenced. The issues I have with AP GM styles are mainly around structure and game flow, plus the tendency to take everything in this very slow, structured, step by step way that introduces mechanics and explains rules in a way that is absolutely great for a listener, but would be a nightmare to actually play. AZ is a good example for this, when listening to it listen to how often they explain the exact particulars of spells and abilities to each other, and the very clear and careful language that they use.

The other thing is that most AP hosts are railroady as fuuuuuuuuuck due to the nature of the medium, but Kobel tends to be better about that than most.

Almost every AP podcast I've ever listened to is just some folks playing a game and recording it. I recognize that very produced casts like TAZ do exist but I think they're probably more the exception than the rule.

# ¿ Jun 15, 2018 04:31

malkav11: Aug 7, 2009

Pollyanna posted:

So I decided that the core playbooks and the Alternatives are kosher, and I'm taking a look at the Priest. There is a move called Invocation:

The question was raised of what happens if the deity represents death (which is in fact a suggestion on the playbook's character sheet), and the Priest beseeches their deity to raise the dead and attack their enemies. My response was that it depends entirely on the fiction, i.e. they're not raising any dead if they're in the middle of a clean office (unless they just murdered a dude) and it will depend on things like "what's in the area", "is your deity cool with you", "what kind of effect would it have on the target". Fiction first.

But if they intend to do damage, do I use their damage die, or grab a couple skeleton monsters and each deal their die? Are they suddenly followers/independent monsters?

What if the Priest asks for something outlandish, like "bring death to this entire ballroom full of nobles" or "speed up the heat death of the universe"?

Also, it says there "your GM will tell you how" - does this mean that there is no guarantee that the Priest's wishes will resolve exactly the way they want? How much input do they get on the results?

My read would be: they are calling out for their deity's aid. That's the intent. Their deity (i.e., the GM) will decide how they aid them, and on a 7-9, an associated drawback. They don't get to specify, and "the priest does damage" is not on the list of benefits. It should be legitimately helpful, assuming they hit the roll, because they hit a move. But spells are how priests get a specific designated effect from their god, not just calling out to them and hoping for the best.

(I'd also examine the fiction to see if they are legitimately in need based on the situation and the personality of the god in question. You don't want to stonewall them on a move they bought, but they also don't get to just call down divine aid at the drop of a hat, and probably don't need to be saved from e.g. entropy or dancing nobles.)

malkav11 fucked around with this message at 04:27 on Jun 26, 2018

# ¿ Jun 26, 2018 04:24

malkav11: Aug 7, 2009

Pollyanna posted:

Doesn�t the player get to choose a particular blessing? Does that mean they can�t be like �bring me a skeleton guardian!� and have to explicitly say �I choose blessing X�? Or is that the intent and it�s up to me as GM to let them know how far it goes or what they get? How would I even handle a deity summoning adds for a player? They certainly wouldn�t be player controlled...would they just be temporary followers?

I think most of this will be answered in play, but I�m considering clarifying that move to say that the effect is up to my discretion and �the GM will tell you how AND what�.

I guess on rereading the player does get to choose one of the listed blessings, so they do have a little control. But I still stand by the idea that when you call on a deity, even for a general category of aid, your lowly human sort isn't the one deciding how that aid manifests.

# ¿ Jun 27, 2018 02:39

malkav11: Aug 7, 2009

Pollyanna posted:

Honestly, I don�t think I will accept the alternative playbooks again, at least not until I have a better grasp on GMing. From what I can tell, you can�t just let players do whatever the gently caress they want, cause you get bullshit disagreement like that. The alternative playbooks put way too much narrative power in their players� hands, and as written kinda makes them godmode. Vancian casting and explicit spells are honestly preferable to this.

I think part of the problem is that the players need to be in the mindset of collaborating to tell an interesting story, rather than playing to "win", or advancing their character, or even necessarily doing what's best for their character. If they can make that mindset shift, you can put a heck of a lot of narrative power in the hands of the players (some games don't even have a GM, after all) and still have a good time.

It's not necessarily an easy adjustment to make, let alone coax people into making, though.

# ¿ Jun 30, 2018 02:29

malkav11: Aug 7, 2009

My inclination would be - unless it's completely obvious the player is just trolling or it would otherwise cause irremediable problems for the game - to say "sure, here are the steps you need to take to be in a position to do <magic bullshit>". Like how in Apocalypse World the Savvyhead workshop is pretty much a blank check for the Savvyhead to do practically anything they feel like...but you get to tell them what hoops they have to jump through first.

# ¿ Jul 27, 2018 02:19

malkav11: Aug 7, 2009

WhiteHowler posted:

I saw it mentioned in other threads.

Seems like a play session went (very) bad. Koebel likely violated the trust of one of his players, and he made others (and some viewers) uncomfortable.

He then apologized and promised to change his behavior and implement safeguards in the future.

The specific post you linked appears to be written by someone who already disliked Koebel, and he spends much of it justifying why he doesn't (and will likely never) accept an apology. So, grain of salt for me.

I am not dismissing the incident. Someone was legitimately negatively affected, and it needed to be called out and corrected, especially since it happened in a public forum. But it also didn't seem overtly malicious or predatory; and I take the apology at face value. I only have enough energy to maintain so much outrage, I guess.

Everyone who considers watching/buying Dungeon World stuff will have to follow their own conscience.

This is basically my take also. It was a lovely move on his part, doing that was absolutely not okay...but it also hasn't been a pattern of behavior in any of the games I've watched, and I felt like his apologies were legit. It's worth knowing about, and it's worth making a call about, but mine isn't "cancel him forever". YMMV.

# ¿ Oct 7, 2020 20:46

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# ¿ May 17, 2024 19:23

malkav11: Aug 7, 2009

Dungeon World was basically trying to do D&D as PBTA, whereas most people here would argue it should be trying to do a specific sort of fantasy narrative to make PBTA really work properly. I say this because, whatever it may inherit from Dungeon World, Stonetop does seem to be doing a much specific sort of fantasy narrative.

# ¿ Mar 18, 2021 20:42

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