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Cyrano4747 posted:
Minor quibble here, but there were some churches that the Nazis found inimical, because the churches by their nature wouldn't go along with Nazism: The Society of Friends and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
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May 6, 2015 12:21
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Afaik, this wasn't handled in a blanko manner, but case by case. You weren't in danger for being a Jehova's witness, but if you object to being drafted for reasons of faith, you'll get hanged.
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May 6, 2015 12:31
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JaucheCharly posted:Afaik, this wasn't handled in a blanko manner, but case by case. You weren't in danger for being a Jehova's witness, but if you object to being drafted for reasons of faith, you'll get hanged. Fair counter-quibble, but given that pacifism is a tenet of being a Jehovah's Witness, it's still a fundamental opposition.
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May 6, 2015 12:59
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Reading this thread was the most depressing thing I did all day but it was also a good read. I do have a question about German/Italian relations. A few years ago when I was in highschool my father left CSPAN running for a few hours and I caught a segment of a guy with a WW2 book talking about the unraveling between Germany and Italy. He claimed that Italy was the only European nation during the conflict that sent in soldiers to fight off the German army to protect their Jewish population. Even at the time this struck me as a ridiculous and overly romantic claim. I've searched for proof off and on and haven't found any. On the other hand when I researched the Italian resistance when getting my bachelor's I read plenty of horrific accounts of Germans executing Italian students (including a case where a Nazi unit set a university building on fire and forced an entire group of students inside to burn to death) and they did mount an invasion of Italy during the last gasp of the war. There was no love lost between the two peoples and there are plenty of romantic stories of heroism and decency that have turned out to be true. So, did that really happen? Did Italian soldiers try to rescue their Jewish population? I would give the name of the guy and his book but it was almost ten years ago.
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May 6, 2015 18:05
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HIJK posted:Reading this thread was the most depressing thing I did all day but it was also a good read. 
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May 6, 2015 18:13
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Not very helpful but it's a good reaction image.
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May 6, 2015 18:14
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Sry, never heard of it. Sounds like an episode of Don Camillo.
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May 6, 2015 18:18
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JaucheCharly posted:Sry, never heard of it. Sounds like an episode of Don Camillo. I figured it was too good to be true. Thanks though.
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May 6, 2015 18:31
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I wouldn't say that it's impossible. A while ago I read about a WM officer who ordered his men to shoot at the SS if they tried to take the jews that he had taken custody of.
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May 6, 2015 18:35
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Antisemitism wasn't as much of a thing in Italian fascism as it was in the German verity. Sure there was plenty of antisemites in the fascist party but there were also some Jews and Mussolini didn't start persecuting the Jews until he was basically pressured into it by the Germans. Similarly in Britain the fascist parties were very split about the issue of antisemitism. The largest party, The British Union of Fascists, was primarily influenced by Italian fascism and was seen by some of the other fascists parties such as the Imperial League of Fascists for not being sufficiently antisemitic and were called "kosher fascists" and "The British Jewnion of Fascists". The were some antisemitic elements within the BUF but the brand of antisemitism they adhered to was more of the older cultural variety than of the newer racial one practiced by the Nazis. They did become increasingly antisemitic as time went on the party became more German influenced but that might have been a largely populist move. In the Nordic countries there was a very similar divide between parties that were influenced by Italy and those who looked to the 3rd Reich with the latter usually putting a much heavier emphasis on "racial hygiene" and antisemitism. I recall reading something about there even being a few parties that opposed racial antisemitism on the grounds that it was a foreign idea imported from Germany but I haven't been able to find a lot of info as my Danish is quite rusty.
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May 6, 2015 19:46
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Susan Zuccotti wrote a book, Italians and the Holocaust, that I haven't read, but that comes up regularly in discussions of the subject.
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May 6, 2015 19:52
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Skoll posted:re: occultism It's Goodricke-Clark, the only expert to have thoroughly covered it.
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May 6, 2015 20:18
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Considering the Italians could hardly fight their own battles without help from the Nazis I doubt they were in any position to fight them over Jewish civilians. Just look up how many times Mussolini had to be bailed out by Hitler when he bit off more than he could chew.
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May 6, 2015 20:28
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If you want to be very (too) generous maybe they were talking of the troops Italy sent to oppose the first Anschluss attempt?
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May 6, 2015 20:50
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Germany's allies varied in the extent and severity of their anti-Semitism. It was for example much safer to be a Jew in the Italian-occupied areas of France than it was in "independent" Vichy France. I am however not aware of any actions by the Italian army specifically to protect the Jews.
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May 7, 2015 07:08
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The fact that the elements of the French state, aka some of the most stereotypically arrogant fuckers ever, would even consider collaborating with the Germans just to stick it to the drat modernists, boggles my mind.
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May 7, 2015 07:32
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On the subject of the Nazi occult, the Nazis weren't so much neo-pagans as they were an organization that had and tolerated neo-pagans because of internal politics. The Nazis used the Thule Society in the very early days to gain power but they did everything they could to distance themselves from the society in 1933 because they thought it was a mark against them. As has been stated, most the overt paganism comes from Himmler and his pet projects. It's also less magical rituals and more trying to reclaim an imagined völkisch past because Himmler really hated Christianity. Hitler depended a great deal on Himmler and since Himmler was into all the crazy occult stuff, Hitler let it slide even though he by all accounts thought it was stupid. You have instances as well like The Myth of the 20th Century by Alfred Rosenberg which is steeped in völkisch occultism but all of the upper echelon except Himmler thought was ridiculous. Himmler also had the Ahnenerbe but he was kept on a short leash when it came to the organization and most of its pseudo occult activities were ended during the war. Even then they were more crank anthropologists and archaeologists until the war started and then they became involved in resettlement and medical experimentation in the concentration camps. The Nazis weren't so much an occult and neo-pagan friendly political party but a Himmler friendly political party. EDIT: The völkisch movement was a movement in Germany that began in the mid 19th century that was focused on reclaiming an imagined past that Germany supposedly had. With the Nazis it usually involved the competing schools of Armanism and Irminism which were all about runes and unlocking their secrets. RocknRollaAyatollah fucked around with this message at 15:45 on May 7, 2015 |
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May 7, 2015 14:41
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If you had to be live somewhere in Europe as a Jew during World War 2 you really could do a lot worse than Italy. Besides Denmark they had they highest survival rate, a lot of it because there was widespread resistance to German deportation orders within the general Italian populous. I wrote an essay about it once and the gist of it was that because the Jewish population in Italy was relatively small and highly assimilated within Italian society the Germans had a real difficult time even finding the Jews they wanted to deport. Basically they couldn't tell the difference between an Italian and an Italian Jew because they weren't familiar with Italian culture in general, so it was much easier to hide. Combine that with the widespread feeling among the civilian population that the Germans had dragged them into a useless and unwinnable war so many people were willing to at least passively resist German occupation.
Shimrra Jamaane fucked around with this message at 18:17 on May 7, 2015 |
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May 7, 2015 18:15
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:If you had to be live somewhere in Europe as a Jew during World War 2 you really could do a lot worse than Italy. Besides Denmark they had they highest survival rate, a lot of it because there was widespread resistance to German deportation orders within the general Italian populous. I wrote an essay about it once and the gist of it was that because the Jewish population in Italy was relatively small and highly assimilated within Italian society the Germans had a real difficult time even finding the Jews they wanted to deport. Basically they couldn't tell the difference between an Italian and an Italian Jew because they weren't familiar with Italian culture in general, so it was much easier to hide. Combine that with the widespread feeling among the civilian population that the Germans had dragged them into a useless and unwinnable war so many people were willing to at least passively resist German occupation. Serious question. How was the highest survival rate not Britan? Or did you mean on the continent? Under Axis control?
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May 7, 2015 21:53
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Obviously under Axis control. And under that category Britain actually had the worst survival rate because all 4 Jews who lived in the channel islands died at Auschwitz.
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May 7, 2015 23:34
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Didn't Finland have the best record? They even apologized for the Jews they accidentally handed over to the Nazis.
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May 8, 2015 00:09
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Patrick Spens posted:Serious question. How was the highest survival rate not Britan? Or did you mean on the continent? Under Axis control? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust#Jewish There's a list. Slim Jim Pickens fucked around with this message at 00:33 on May 8, 2015 |
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May 8, 2015 00:26
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RocknRollaAyatollah posted:Didn't Finland have the best record? They even apologized for the Jews they accidentally handed over to the Nazis. That is a very long and fascinating story, but the highlights are: 1. "Marshall of Finland Karl Gustav Emil von Mannerheim" posted:"While Jews serve in my army I will not allow their deportation." 2. Field Synagogue  3. "Finnish Prime Minister Jukka W. Rangell" posted:"Finland has no Jewish problem." 4. Dina Poljakoff Leo Skurnik Salomon Klass Three Jewish Finns who were awarded the Iron Cross (they all declined). vvv Eesh, thanks dude.vvv Arbite fucked around with this message at 09:35 on May 9, 2015 |
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May 9, 2015 03:42
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Arbite posted:Lotta Svärd Lotta Svärd was the name of an organisation. From this article: quote:Another woman, Dina Poljakoff, who worked as a nursing assistant, is believed to have made such an impression on her German patients that, like Skurnik and Klass, she was awarded the Iron Cross (the third and final Finnish Jew to have been offered the medal). “Non-Aryan women were not meant to tend to Aryan men and the Germans knew my mother was Jewish, but despite all this, they liked her,” says Aviva Nemes-Jalkanen, the daughter of Steinbock.
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May 9, 2015 08:16
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It's worth noting that Finland did collaborate with the RSHA and a significant part of those POW's turned over to the Germans were in fact jewish. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einsatzkommando_Finnland Edit: I had lunch with Silvennoinen about four years back, most of the documentation relating to Finnish collaboration with Einsatzkommando Finnland have been destroyed either during the war or after the war.
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May 9, 2015 10:57
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 The Last Surrender of the Third Reich — Svalbard, September 4th, 1945. "In September of 1944 a German project called Operation Haudegen established a weather base on the remote arctic Island of Svalbard. Manned by 11 soldiers, the station was created to gather weather data, which is vitally important when planning a military campaign. For months the men of Operation Haudegen staved off subzero temperatures, boredom, and fought a fierce war with the local population of polar bears while dutifully sending weather reports to Germany. When Germany collapsed in the winter and spring of 1945, so too did its communication infrastructure, with fewer and fewer messages sent to Haudegen. On May 8th 1945 the men of Haudegen received a message instructing all German forces to surrender. It was the last message they would ever receive. All the men of Haudegen had was a single rowboat which could hardly cross the North Atlantic. They were effectively trapped on the island until help could arrive. For months they continued to broadcast their weather reports, this time un-coded for all to hear. They even tried broadcasting messages on Allied distress channels, but with no luck. It seemed that the world had forgotten about Haudegen altogether. Finally on September 4th, 1945, a boat of Norwegian seal hunters intercepted an SOS broadcast from the nearby island of Svalbard. The captain of the boat docked with the station and invited the German soldiers on board for a hearty dinner, a real treat since the men of Haudegen had been surviving on canned rations for nearly a year. Finally, the German commander said “I suppose we should surrender now”, took out his pistol and placed it on the table in front of the ship’s captain. The captain stared at it unsure what to do and asked “can I keep this then?”. On September 4th, 1945 the last soldiers of the Third Reich officially surrendered to a boat of seal hunters, almost four months after World War II in Europe had ended." Tumblr post
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May 9, 2015 12:03
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Kanine posted:
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May 9, 2015 13:34
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Kanine posted:
I would love to have seen the look on that Norwegian captain's face.
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May 9, 2015 19:21
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Ah, the Norwegians. Renowned for their hot blood and outbreaks of emotion.
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May 9, 2015 19:24
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That's a genuinely cool story.
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May 9, 2015 19:50
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Cool in every sense.
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May 9, 2015 21:00
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This has probably been covered somewhere upthread, but would handing over Danzig have done anything to improve Poland's situation / at least buy some time? Between Hitler and Stalin I think they were doomed no matter what, but realistically, what would have happened if they capitulated on that point?
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May 15, 2015 02:16
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Ghetto Prince posted:This has probably been covered somewhere upthread, but would handing over Danzig have done anything to improve Poland's situation / at least buy some time? No, because Danzig as an excuse for war was already tossed aside by Hitler in favor of his whole false flag radio station thing on the border.
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May 15, 2015 02:22
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Not sure if this is the right place to ask, but seriously why does North Korea still exist? At least why is it allowed to continue existing in it's current state?
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May 15, 2015 04:22
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Kanine posted:Not sure if this is the right place to ask, but seriously why does North Korea still exist? At least why is it allowed to continue existing in it's current state? No one wants to deal with the costs of picking up the pieces.
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May 15, 2015 04:27
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Kanine posted:Not sure if this is the right place to ask, but seriously why does North Korea still exist? At least why is it allowed to continue existing in it's current state? If we leave it alone, it costs everyone else much less money than taking 'em down and then frankly being morally obligated to rebuild it. Plus they aren't a real military threat to anyone since the 80s, their best shot is literally just nuking themselves to try to spite the invaders because they can't manage to get a nuke into SK let alone over to Japan or the US. When North Korea finally collapses, China's going to have to spend a ton more on keeping people from fleeing across their non-total-minefield border, South Korea for certain and probably the US and others will have to pour money in to reintegrating it with South Korea, like we're talking trillions of dollars of economic impact spanning over a few decades minimum. Just look at former East Germany: it's still not doing as well as former West Germany with a full 25 years of official reunion and billions upon billions pent, and the two Germanies were way closer in infrastructure, wealth, etc than North and South Korea are today. So meanwhile we keep kicking the can down the road, with China applying the minimal stabilizing force to prevent the refugee rush and the US/China/SK together doling out pretty hefty but also rather cheap food aid so they don't completely starve.
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May 15, 2015 04:47
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Kanine posted:Not sure if this is the right place to ask, but seriously why does North Korea still exist? At least why is it allowed to continue existing in it's current state? Invasions are expensive and sending them some food once in a while is cheaper than trying to unfuck the country. Plus an unfucked North Korea is probably just going to be reunified with the South, and China isn't going to be super happy about bordering a US ally.
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May 15, 2015 05:25
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Because the almighty Kim does not wish it, and the glorious childlike empire will continue to be protected by her servants onto eternity. Like a loving mother, she doles out what is fair to her citizens, and instructs them not to believe the propaganda issued by those horrible baby executing foreigners who wish to fool you into thinking that a higher standard of living exists outside of the motherland's borders. (But seriously, because China doesn't want to deal with immigrants, South Korea can only handle so many per year with the generous benefit package they issue any migrating northerners, and a lot of people in NK are actually quite invested in their country beyond our "LOL Kim the Eternal Emperor" image, and don't want to see their standard of living go up in smoke, in a combination of "What would I do?" and "What was it all for, then?" depending on where they are on the socioeconomic ladder. Plus Korea is a horrible mountainous country ill suited to anything, which makes for terrible fighting. David Halberstam's The Coldest War will give you a really good idea of how much the Korean War sucked the first time. It'd be yet another quagmire like Iraq and Afghanistan, only this time butted right up against China.)
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May 15, 2015 05:50
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Nintendo Kid posted:Just look at former East Germany: it's still not doing as well as former West Germany with a full 25 years of official reunion and billions upon billions pent, and the two Germanies were way closer in infrastructure, wealth, etc than North and South Korea are today. This. East Germany, for all of its faults, at least didn't have a vast majority population whose skills consisted of dirt farming, political prisoner or "more bodies than the enemy has bullets" soldier. North Korea for multiple generations has largely been stuck where they were in the 40s/50s - a largely agrarian economy with few high-skill workers.
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May 15, 2015 05:53
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Actually, North Korea used to be the industrialized productive part. Not so much now though of course.Kanine posted:Not sure if this is the right place to ask, but seriously why does North Korea still exist? At least why is it allowed to continue existing in it's current state? NK also apparently has loads of chemical and biological weapons too, and Seoul and it's 25M people are not far from the border.
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May 15, 2015 07:58
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