|
Gumby posted:Right. For those reading the thread who are a little confused, it goes like this. Weimar Germany had had crippling inflation soon after WWI for various reasons... I just wanted to chime in here and point out that that these events aren't that close in time. While hyper-inflation certainly contributed to a loss in faith in the SPD, the hyper-inflationary period was 1921-1924. Hitler had tried to launch the Beer Hall Putsch in '23, and was tossed in jail for it until '24. But I think it needs saying that the economy had begun to improve in the later half of the 20's, the diplomatic situation was settling down a little bit, and the NSDAP were still trying to rebuild. Things were getting a little bit better, although there was plenty of this stuff Gumby posted:Due to having a bunch of political parties who won't work together, the German Reichstag (Congress) is deadlocked and laws don't get passed, which is around the time that the President of Germany and his advisers decide to just start ruling by decree since they never liked this whole democracy idea anyway. going on, and the political situation still wasn't great, particularly with regards to the Presidency. But the Nazi party wasn't really a thing yet on the political stage; they got less than 5% of the vote in both the 1924 and 1928 election. What really screwed over the system was the beginning of the Great Depression in '29, and the inability of the SPD and KPD to work together to do anything about it. That's the environment the NSDAP finally start to succeed in, getting 18% of the vote in the 1930 elections. That takes you back to Gumby's post in '32. Long story short, I just wanted to say hyper-inflation didn't cause Nazis. PittTheElder fucked around with this message at 21:32 on Apr 23, 2013 |
#
¿
Apr 23, 2013 21:28
|
|
Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
|
|
| # ¿ May 21, 2024 00:00 |
|
|
ArchangeI posted:Doubtful. Hindenburg was already pretty old and died in 1934. The communists were seen as the growing threat, and I would argue that Hitler might have been able to snatch an election afterwards. of course, the German people could just as well have risen up in a grand communist revolution. I think Hindenburg being super old was part of the problem. As I recall he was only convinced to re-run in the 1932 election because he was seen as the guy that could prevent Hitler from winning. Had he been a younger man, the November 1932 Reichstag elections wouldn't have happened, and Hitler would never have had his plurality. Of course, Hindenburg was never the most savoury of characters anyway, and was quite willing to work with notable scumbag Kurt von Schleicher to establish the foundation of a Presidential Dictatorship that, lo and behold, wound up turning it's powers over to Hitler.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 24, 2013 23:43
|
|
|
Indeed, they were called Freikorps, and they're pretty common in various forms through later German history. There was at least one big Freikorp serving for the Prussians in the Napoleonic war, and they were used to suppress the 1918-1919 Berlin communist uprising as well. Lots of veterans joined them after WWI, I'm guessing the already shaky Wiemar government just wasn't in any hurry to piss off armed and organized veterans.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 25, 2013 17:44
|
|
|
Azathoth posted:... I wouldn't go that far. There were a lot of people in the British Cabinet, including Lloyd George himself basically saying that 'you know guys, this whole super-punitive dictated surrender might not be the best idea.' Clemenceau wasn't having any of that of course; given the Franco-Prussian war and the absolute horror of WWI, it's kind of tough to blame him, but hindsight is a wondrous thing. And while the tone of most people at the peace conference was 'Tough on You, Germany,' there were people who realized that it might backfire.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 26, 2013 18:35
|
|
|
GreyjoyBastard posted:It needs to be noted that prior to the Great Depression, Weimar Germany was performing entirely adequately. It's possible that without a worldwide financial meltdown (or possibly even if it comes a little later) we don't see everything fall to pieces. Yeah, this really does get overlooked. Around 1925-1929, things really were looking up for Germany. Which is pretty good given what they'd been through in WWI. If the damned Americans could have kept their financial markets under control, it's possible Germany could have come through the period without lapsing into dictatorship. Which is still threatening to world peace really, since then you're probably right back where we were before WWI, minus Austria-Hungary. It's sad that American-market-crash is a thing that kicks the wider world in the teeth some 4-5 times throughout the last couple centuries.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 29, 2013 18:51
|
|
|
MN-Ghost posted:I have a question. Why did Hitler break the non-aggression pact with Russia and invade them before securing the western front by forcing Britain into surrender? I was taught that being forced to fight on two front between France and Russia was one of the biggest reason Germany lost WWI. So given that Hitler should have already learned this lesson, this always seemed to me to be a monumentally dumb move. Other people have already said it, but how exactly could Hitler have forced Britain to surrender? Sealion was a complete fantasy from the beginning, and Germany had already failed to acquire air superiority, so not even Hitler would have attempted it anyway. It's possible but unlikely that the British could have been forced out of North Africa, but even this probably wouldn't have made them surrender. Britain knew the Empire was on the line, and if they were going to go down, they were going down fighting. Hitler sitting on his hands and waiting for something to improve, aside from being deeply uncharacteristic for him, was also a terrible idea. That just allows more time for the Americans to funnel resources to Britain and the Soviet army to rebuild itself. On top of that, the German economy was still not in great shape; they basically needed to keep conquering places so they could plunder them. But at the end of the day, I'd say it's because Hitler thought he could beat the Soviets. The dude had one hell of a hate-boner for Communists, and the German experience working with the Soviet army had been in the 20's, when the Red Army was far, far more of a trainwreck than it was by 1940. So Hitler has a bunch of armies sitting around, and a big old Soviet Union to attack which he hates, and thinks is undefended and incapable of fighting back.
|
|
#
¿
May 2, 2013 19:15
|
|
|
gyrobot posted:So could the Nazi can afford to go public with the Death Camps compared to their Asian equivilant the Japanese who were not only known for their terrible treatment of the conquered but the unapologetic attitude tehy adopt to this day or would such a revelation cause Hitler's regime to crumble in fear of knowing they may next on the block if they had won the war and assumed dominion over mainland Europe. I suspect it wouldn't have mattered too much. It depends when they do it of course; if Hitler starts screaming about gassing all the Jews in say, 1930, it'd likely have kept him out of government. If it went public after the war is already underway, then it wouldn't change too much. Keep in mind that the German population knew something was up. I don't know if they knew exactly what was happening, but there's all sort of correspondences from regular German folks saying 'Jews are being rounded up and bad stuff is happening to them, that's pretty damned sketchy'. As always, a certain subsection of the population would have been totally on board. Mans posted:Remember that Stalin ordered a lot of veterans from the Spanish civil war to be executed. He also executed shitloads of officers and soldiers after World War 2. Stalin was totally an idiot, but it's not exactly miraculous that they managed to beat Nazi Germany. The Germans had just about everything go exactly as well as it could have for them, and they still weren't that close to winning.
|
|
#
¿
May 2, 2013 23:27
|
|
|
Mans posted:Still, Stalin's eagerness to starve the Ukrainians could've been used as a massive kick in the balls had the Nazis any brain in their heads... True, but if the Nazis were going to treat Slavs like people, then they wouldn't have been the Nazis.
|
|
#
¿
May 3, 2013 23:35
|
|
|
Cowslips Warren posted:Did Hitler himself have an opinion on the attack on Pearl Harbor, or any of the atrocities committed by Japan? Or was he more concerned with Germany and didn't give a gently caress about Japan overall? Hitler was livid that Japan had poked the bear that was the U.S., but I've never seen anything about him caring about the atrocities. After all, neither the Japanese or Chinese were Master Race Category. Doesn't much matter what happens to them long term.
|
|
#
¿
May 6, 2013 18:56
|
|
|
That, and it's worth keeping in mind that the Nazi cause was way more than just 'Kill all the Jews'. The 'Make <YourNationHere> Strong' narrative tends to be pretty attractive.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 10, 2013 07:17
|
|
|
The Swastika flag. Apparently I can't embed the vector images wiki uses, so I'll just link it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Germany#Nazi_Germany The naval jack was a little different, but similar story: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:War_Ensign_of_Germany_1938-1945.svg PittTheElder fucked around with this message at 19:13 on Jun 10, 2013 |
|
#
¿
Jun 10, 2013 19:11
|
|
|
Cowslips Warren posted:Was there any real thing as the Madagascar plan, to move all the Jewish people from Germany there, or was it just a lie/clusterfuck/rumor from the start? No, it was a thing for sure. It seems the Nazi's were willing to just deport the Jews to somewhere, and they assumed the other powers of the world (namely, Britain) would be happy to go along with this, the Jews being Jews and all. Of course, they never had any real ability to carry it out, for the reason Gumby gave. And then onwards to the Final Solution. Actually, I wonder if anyone has any writing from the Nazi head staff on the topic. I wonder if they thought deporting the Jews to Russia/America/wherever would be a good idea, owing to their belief that the Jews would destroy the people of those nations from within somehow, like they had done to noble Germany.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 17, 2013 05:19
|
|
|
FreudianSlippers posted:Hitler absolutely adored Britain and everything about it and for a long time he hoped for an alliance with Britain. The reason Hess went to the UK to try to broker a peace deal was because he knew this and was trying to "work towards the Fuhrer". Yeah, I know. Which doesn't make any sense of course, but if the Nazis had been capable of rational analysis, they wouldn't have been the Nazis! 
|
|
#
¿
Jun 17, 2013 19:04
|
|
|
Pretty much. You should probably also keep Hindenburg on that list. And the American financial elite too really. Without the depression, I don't see anyway the Nazis wind up running the show.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 19, 2013 06:44
|
|
|
Well, the point of that line is to emphasize the power-mad and delusional part of their personalities. Other than that, relatively regular dudes with lots of power.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 19, 2013 23:21
|
|
|
There's no way Japan could have ever hoped to win an attritionary battle though. Even if they destroyed multiple US fleets somehow, their loss of aviation certified pilots could never have been replaced. It was a war they simply couldn't win.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 29, 2013 05:33
|
|
|
Jasper Tin Neck posted:Was there any significant attempt by the axis to ignite another Anglo-Boer conflict in South Africa? Not that I know of, though the Central Powers of WWI (since they had the Ottoman Caliph) did try and create a revolt among Muslims in the British Empire. Never really came to much.
|
|
#
¿
Jul 5, 2013 03:58
|
|
|
Cast_No_Shadow posted:I have a question, I keep seeing the phrase, "they could have done things differently, but if they did well they wouldn't have been the Nazis". Which seems to make sense on the surface. The racist principles of the Nazi movement were a fundamental part of their ideology. However, I wonder about two points. Don't think of that line as an appeal to determinism, because that's not really what it is. It's more than so many of the "what-ifs" around the Nazis relate to them not being dicks to particular groups (scientists, Poles, Balts, Slavs of various flavours), which would run completely contrary to Nazi ideology, and they weren't known for being pragmatic. The questions just don't make any sense. But there's a million more "what-if" questions you can ask. Really Julius Caesar does falls into a similar boat. What we know about the guy, and the absolutely toxic political climate really means that he had to do something at least similar to that. You could add all sorts of minor distinctions in what he does of course, including exactly what he does with his power. But assuming that level of power is pretty much a given; if he had been willing to relinquish power within the political system, he never would have fought a civil war against Pompey over who got to be in charge.
|
|
#
¿
Jul 12, 2013 17:47
|
|
|
Kemper Boyd posted:Think both Churchill actually signed an order stipulating this (basically "unit commanders above major are entitled to decide if they execute capture Nazi govt officials") and FDR had drafted an order that was similar (except it applied to the German military too, everyone above Colonel would have been shot straight away as war criminals). Holy hell. Do you have a source for that? Because that's firmly in the "totally OK with ordering war crimes" department that of course should change our (folks in countries that were the Allies) perception of the war, but of course won't, because we must have been the good guys.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 22, 2013 21:50
|
|
|
Indeed, the very weak shape of the German economy is why I find theories that, had both the Soviet Union and United States remained as neutral as they had been on 1 January 1941, the British alone probably still would have won the war, on a 1948-1950 timeline.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 23, 2013 04:22
|
|
|
jaegerx posted:Elaborate please. I know we'll get into the hypothetical with it but I'd like to hear it. Well it was some time ago, but if I'm not mistaken, the gist of it is that Britain continues to fight it out in North Africa, and with naval superiority, generally ekes out a win there. Then it sort of settles into a stalemate where the Germans are unable to force Britain to the bargaining table while the British continue to build up for a naval invasion that never really comes. Then it's just a race to see which implodes first, the German economy or the British colonial empire. Authors bet was on Britain being able to hold out, being floated by American assistance. The British victory is nowhere near as complete as it was in our world. Japan still gets beaten to a pulp by America. Not a whole lot changes. Though it's also very out there as far as alt-history goes, because it's rather doubtful the Germans and Soviets weren't going to come to blows at some point. But I've never really been one for alt-history anyway, so it was more of a "huh, I guess that could happen" and then I moved the hell on. The Alt-History crowd is one of the more bizarre on this internet of ours. PittTheElder fucked around with this message at 06:44 on Sep 23, 2013 |
|
#
¿
Sep 23, 2013 06:28
|
|
|
Well Sealion as we know it was such a hilariously poor idea that I can't imagine it would actually be attempted. Unless you just mean the point where it gets called off.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 23, 2013 06:50
|
|
|
Mr. Sunshine posted:All the really disgusting poo poo you outsource to locals (the guards inside the death camps were almost exclusively Ukrainians) , which lets you maintain your emotional distance. Holy poo poo, really? Either way, I am immediately reminded of a quote from Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri: Captain Ulrik Svensgaard posted:Of all the employments, working in the brood pit was considered at once the most horrific and the most desirable. Horrific because of what we saw occur day after day, and because of the very nature of the sessile native lifeforms. Desirable because, having been chosen to work in the pit, you were highly unlikely to become one of its victims.
|
|
#
¿
May 8, 2014 08:18
|
|
|
Rookersh posted:The battle of Wizna and the Romanian Bulwark were both provided as examples of how Poland could have held the country against the Nazis long enough for Britain/France to join in... No they didn't, because Britain and France weren't going to do anything; it seems abundantly clear (to me, a rather uneducated person on the topic) that their hope was to sit back and rearm as much as possible, while hoping the Germans would walk slowly towards them in the Low Countries a la the last war. And in a crazy counter-factual where Britain/France were going to act offensively, the correct time to do so would have been 1938. Now where's my weeping Czechoslovak flag emoticon... PittTheElder fucked around with this message at 01:46 on May 18, 2014 |
|
#
¿
May 18, 2014 01:43
|
|
|
Disinterested posted:A lot of the Jews who resettled wound up in Poland and France and got gassed anyway so it wasn't like Hitler was cutting the ones who left any breaks. Hitler had conquest in mind from the early days, so it's not like acquiring these territories full of Jews was in any way contingent or surprising either. Of course if you really do believe that Jews undermine and destroy a country from within, then forcing all the Jews in your country to go live in the country you plan to invade is a sensible enough plan.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 20, 2015 03:04
|
|
|
Kanine posted:
I would love to have seen the look on that Norwegian captain's face.
|
|
#
¿
May 9, 2015 19:21
|
|
|
Actually, North Korea used to be the industrialized productive part. Not so much now though of course.Kanine posted:Not sure if this is the right place to ask, but seriously why does North Korea still exist? At least why is it allowed to continue existing in it's current state? NK also apparently has loads of chemical and biological weapons too, and Seoul and it's 25M people are not far from the border.
|
|
#
¿
May 15, 2015 07:58
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ May 21, 2024 00:00 |
|
|
That's Total War in general. Eisenhower was promoted to Brigadier General on 3 October 1941. By December of '43 he was Supreme Allied Commander of the Allied Expeditionary Force, which is an awesome title if ever there was one.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 25, 2015 06:37
|
|