|
LT, I really don't think it's a good idea to make this a one-time thing. You can still sell them through Etsy or eBay at a higher price, but more importantly it won't come across as "after this kickstarter I'm falling off the planet" which doesn't inspire confidence. Successful creators are totally excited about their project and enthusiasm drives support. It's going to be hard to sound enthusiastic about a thing you *REALLY* want to make happen! ...Once! and then never touch again.  Even if your eBay store sells them for twice as much, the fact that kits are still produced will help. Who hasn't wanted to expand their table, or broken something and wanted a replacement?
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2013 19:51
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 20, 2024 02:45 |
|
|
jivjov posted:Yes, because printing, binding, and shipping is free for them, apparently. That's not what he said at all. Evil Hat needs money to do things but they could afford to release Fate Core themselves. They don't need KICKSTARTER money, it just makes it a lot easier. People have this idea that kickstarter should only ever be used for projects that have zero chance of existing without kickstarter and that's not the sole intent.
|
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2013 19:56
|
|
|
I too am basically willing to live with a little risk in KS and a certain... conceptual incoherence if it means more cool stuff gets done. It's not exploiting consumers on the same level as, say, Rent A Center or the local check-into-cash place, it's more a question of having to look at each project individually.
|
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2013 21:08
|
|
|
jivjov posted:Yes, because printing, binding, and shipping is free for them, apparently. I'm sure there are some base costs involved in making those tiles.
|
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2013 23:18
|
|
|
Maybe I'm oversimplifying it, but I've always seen Kickstarter as the same thing as NPR or PBS fundraisers. You're donating money to continue an organization or service that you like, but also to get certain swag. You might not want a tote bag, but you might pledge for a Ken Burns DVD collection or New York Symphony recording. Nobody thinks that a pledge reward from PBS is an actual purchase. The thing that's confusing about Kickstarter, though, is that while you're paying more than market price for the Ken Burns collection, you're often getting Kickstarter rewards at a discount. Because of that, people are going to treat Kickstarter as an alternate purchasing venue rather than a donation platform. I'm pretty sure PBS and NPR are still legally required to actually follow through on their promised rewards, but then again, they're in no danger of not coming up with tote bags. If you're relying on Kickstarter for getting rewards, you should be aware of the risks. Donations are always kind of a risk though, since there's no guarantee that just because you've donated money they'll still have the budget to continue whatever you're interested in.
|
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2013 23:49
|
|
|
Someone in the last thread quoted someone saying that there have only been 4 true innovations in tabletop gaming, and MTG was one of them. Does anyone know what the others were?
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2013 05:08
|
|
|
Baron Porkface posted:Someone in the last thread quoted someone saying that there have only been 4 true innovations in tabletop gaming, and MTG was one of them. Does anyone know what the others were? I'd assume D&D was one of the others.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2013 05:15
|
|
|
Baron Porkface posted:Someone in the last thread quoted someone saying that there have only been 4 true innovations in tabletop gaming, and MTG was one of them. Does anyone know what the others were? Off the top of my head, I would guess Settlers of Catan, Dominion, and Apocalypse World, but I have no idea what that other guy would say.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2013 05:16
|
|
|
Kreigspeil would probably count
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2013 05:24
|
|
|
LumberingTroll posted:Ok, so I have something I want to talk to you guys about. You are all very vocal about Kickstarter so that's why I am asking you. Suppose I decided to order one of your modular buildings. Knowing I'm never going to be able to buy a second or third one to expand my terrain options if I don't get them all right now is polarizing: either I have the hundred bucks (or whatever) and decide to risk it now by getting every piece I will possibly ever want, or, I decide to not pledge at all because I don't want to wind up being unable to expand my options. So unless I'm confident I'll never want to buy more of your terrain, I have to consider that I might wind up with mismatched pieces eventually when I have to get more containers or building levels or whatever from some other vendor. Frankly I think you've put way too much work into your designs to not keep selling them, especially if the KS proves popular. And I think the "I'll never make this again" thing doesn't work well for a product people reasonably buy and then buy more of if they like the first one.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2013 05:35
|
|
|
That's a fair point, maybe never isn't the way to go, maybe hold a Kickstarter once or twice a year to sell my designs, and new ones I will inevitably come up with. For me making terrain is as fun, if not in many cases more fun than actually playing the games they are meant for.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2013 07:23
|
|
|
LumberingTroll posted:That's a fair point, maybe never isn't the way to go, maybe hold a Kickstarter once or twice a year to sell my designs, and new ones I will inevitably come up with. For me making terrain is as fun, if not in many cases more fun than actually playing the games they are meant for. This is a pretty good argument for not going "never", you know? Just as there are those guys who make their 18XX games by hand with long waiting times, you're probably better off being a guy who does stuff irregularly, when it's fun and worth your time. Like, really, I'm assuming you have a lucrative day job, since you can afford to go buy expensive stuff when you feel like it; the sense I am getting is that you chose "never again" because you (rightly) don't want it to become a monster unfun timesuck sideshow. Rather than "never again", you should probably be skewing more toward custom work and high-end stuff that's more interesting to make and done in smaller batches, with occasional Kickstarters to launch new terrain types. Price yourself out of most peoples' market, except for the Kickstarters, which will basically pay you back for the design time on new terrain.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2013 15:19
|
|
|
If you really want to drive business, maybe you could stipulate that additional orders will only be possible if you backed the Kickstarter? That creates a nice feeling of exclusivity.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2013 15:29
|
|
Baron Porkface posted:Someone in the last thread quoted someone saying that there have only been 4 true innovations in tabletop gaming, and MTG was one of them. Does anyone know what the others were? I wouldn't limit it to four, but historically Reiswitz's Kriegsspiel, H. G. Wells's Little Wars, Dungeons and Dragons, and Magic: The Gathering all invented/codified entirely new types of tabletop game (board wargames, miniatures wargames, role-playing games, and collectible card games respectively) and all have clear historical attestation. Of course, in addition we must have the invention of board games, card games, and dice games, bringing this up to seven true innovations, but none of these three have clear historical origins. Now, I'd personally expand it a little to talk about various innovations within each type (e.g. the first board game, the first non-roll-and-move board game, the first board game to implement theming in the rules [chaturanj, the first version of chess], Eurogames, etc.), but if you're talking about just four those are pretty good examples.
|
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2013 15:34
|
|
|
Crackbone posted:If you really want to drive business, maybe you could stipulate that additional orders will only be possible if you backed the Kickstarter? That creates a nice feeling of exclusivity. That is an interesting idea. I wonder how people would take it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2013 16:04
|
|
|
LumberingTroll posted:That is an interesting idea. I wonder how people would take it. Obviously I'm not representative of the majority, but for terrain, I'd much prefer the option to buy more later if I really like it. You basically create scarcity while assuring backers they will be "supported" in the future. It creates a lot more headaches for you though.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2013 16:07
|
|
|
If you promise a future discount for backers, you add value without closing yourself off to the rest of the world. Plus, people will look at the price for non backers when they're evaluating the deal. "I'm getting $400 worth of terrain for $100!" looks better than "I'm getting $100 worth of terrain that other people can't buy later!" even if both backers are getting the exact same terrain.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2013 16:24
|
|
|
E: phone posting!
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2013 16:25
|
|
|
LumberingTroll posted:That is an interesting idea. I wonder how people would take it. If you go that angle, a vocal subset of your original buyers are going to expect you to never go public, ever, even if it's stupidly successful, since you stipulated it in the kickstarter. A future discount like moths said, or exclusivity in terrain first for a period of time would work better, If that's going to work for you long term. If it's not, and you just want to fund your laser, make it a one time exclusive kickstarter deal with the caveat that they will be opened up for people to order after a period of time. One thing I wouldn't reccommend is what this dude did: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/772848122/underground-lasers-28mm-modular-terrain?ref=live -- so many confusing options. It looks like he's going to get so bogged down with options and orders etc that he's not going to be able to keep track of what's going on. This is one guy who should have just opened up his own web store. Have you looked at Litko? From what I understand it's one dude with a laser who takes orders, cuts stuff custom, and he has a waiting list, and people still buy it in droves. Shogun Miniatures is another one who works with metal. There definitely is a market out there for stuff. I wouldn't cut yourself off from it completely.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2013 02:45
|
|
|
These are all very good points, I guess I wouldn't mind setting up a store after a set time and doing it at a pace I can manage. That way anyone who backed would have exclusivity to order more for a while. Then I could eventually open it up to other people. I have pleanty of room in my shot for multiple machines if I wanted I suppose.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2013 02:55
|
|
|
You might check out etsy and see how other people who do handmade stuff handle limited online sales. I almost think etsy is a little better for craft-type gaming products like awesome miniatures or terrain.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2013 03:00
|
|
|
LumberingTroll posted:These are all very good points, I guess I wouldn't mind setting up a store after a set time and doing it at a pace I can manage. That way anyone who backed would have exclusivity to order more for a while. Then I could eventually open it up to other people. I have pleanty of room in my shot for multiple machines if I wanted I suppose. Yeah, definitely do not promise in your kickstarter that you will never start a company or sell this stuff on a larger scale. Feel free to say you have no current plans to do so but make it clear you are not promising one-time only kickstarter exclusive poo poo, because people will go loving nuts on you if you say that and then later (even years later) "go back on it".
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2013 03:02
|
|
|
JDCorley posted:You might check out etsy and see how other people who do handmade stuff handle limited online sales. I almost think etsy is a little better for craft-type gaming products like awesome miniatures or terrain.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2013 03:16
|
|
|
I liked the system GMT games has used for like 10 years now. They would propose a game and have people "buy" it, which typically involved CC numbers. But customers did not get charged until the game was actually in production. And it would not go into production unless enough people had essentially pre-ordered the game for GMT to break even, which was usually between 500 and 1000 copies. To sweeten the deal you usually got a pretty nice discount off the standard retail price too. But in the grand scheme of TG, these are tiny production runs of games with a relatively narrow audience, they are "those horrible chit games" as one of my friends would put it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2013 03:23
|
|
|
Lakedaimon posted:I liked the system GMT games has used for like 10 years now. They would propose a game and have people "buy" it, which typically involved CC numbers. But customers did not get charged until the game was actually in production. And it would not go into production unless enough people had essentially pre-ordered the game for GMT to break even, which was usually between 500 and 1000 copies. This is exactly how kickstarter works.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2013 03:26
|
|
|
JoshTheStampede posted:This is exactly how kickstarter works. I thought KS charged you as soon as the project was "funded"? In the old GMT P500 system, the game was usually at the printers and not far away from shipping when you finally got charged. Im considering a KS right now where the game won't be out until next January :/
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2013 03:41
|
|
|
Lakedaimon posted:I thought KS charged you as soon as the project was "funded"? It does indeed.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2013 03:53
|
|
|
JoshTheStampede posted:Yeah, definitely do not promise in your kickstarter that you will never start a company or sell this stuff on a larger scale. Feel free to say you have no current plans to do so but make it clear you are not promising one-time only kickstarter exclusive poo poo, because people will go loving nuts on you if you say that and then later (even years later) "go back on it". Make it a stretch goal!
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2013 03:53
|
|
|
P500 is a pretty awesome system and as well as testing the waters for new designs, it allows GMT to see how much interest there is in doing a reprint of older games (although some like Twilight Struggle pretty much get printed out anyway). I think this is one of the reasons why GMT is so successful: they are able to provide copies of even their older games but they don't end up having much if any surplus stock. This also allows them to have build quality which pretty much surpasses most other wargaming companies, since they are able to provide nice, fitted boxes, good quality chits/rules, top quality mounted mapboard and cards with good cardstock, something that many other companies are usually not able to provide. Touching on another company that I've had dealings with, Deep Thought Games are a company that is pretty much a one man outfit that exclusively creates copies of many 18XX games. There are many options, including asking him to mount the map/laminate the components, or you can just get the print-outs and do it yourself. The company, due to being a one man outfit, takes a long time to do stuff and there is a huge queue because it's one of the few places that will make brand-new 18XX games and ship them all over the world. More than a year ago, I joined the queue at around 640: now I'm currently 487 in the queue. I think outfits like these can work, but you really need a niche product (and 18XX is a niche as it gets).
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2013 10:48
|
|
|
Lakedaimon posted:I thought KS charged you as soon as the project was "funded"? You're correct. It's a minor difference but significant.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2013 12:18
|
|
|
Lakedaimon posted:I thought KS charged you as soon as the project was "funded"? Well it charges you at the end of the kickstarter, not at the point where the goal is met, but yes.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2013 13:48
|
|
|
I have a question about RPG source books: what type of source book sells the best in general? I'm thinking about the first source book for my upcoming superhero RPG, Base Raiders, and I have a bunch of ideas, but I'm not sure which one to do first. RPGs in general tend to have the following types of source books: For players: Equipment Lists - new weapons, items, spells, etc. Player Addons - new and improved classes, spells, skills, options for player characters For both players and GMs Region/Theme sourcebook - covers a particular region in the setting or a theme/subgenre - offers new material based on the region/theme Campaign setting - provides a new campaign setting based on the game system For GMs Adventure anthology - multiple scenarios, usually one shots Campaign - multiple linked adventures with a specific path Monster/Enemy/NPC Manual - statted out NPCs/foes etc for a game GM specific campaign book - setting material meant for GMs
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2013 05:47
|
|
|
clockworkjoe posted:I have a question about RPG source books: what type of source book sells the best in general? As JDCorley often likes to observe, official D&D books sell best in general. Everything else is a rounding error. Work on whatever you feel like your game needs, then put it in the base game, then people only have to buy one book to get invested in your game that nobody's heard of.
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2013 06:03
|
|
|
I can't speak for anything except the Funhaver sales, but the DW classes have consistently sold well whereas the GM stuff hasn't sold at all.
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2013 08:36
|
|
|
New mechanical widgets and toys tend to drive better sales. EDIT: This doesn't just mean things like new player powers or classes or whatever, and not even items, but also new ways of looking at old mechanics. Innovative traps that give life to an old trap-building system can make an adventure module very popular. That Old Tree fucked around with this message at 08:47 on Apr 24, 2013 |
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2013 08:44
|
|
|
clockworkjoe posted:I have a question about RPG source books: what type of source book sells the best in general? I have no data about sales, so this is an aside. But, I wonder if there isn't a way to break the mold a little here. It seems in recent years (decades?) the standard format has been one to three general books that describe your game's core rules, for players and GMs, which may include a standard separate "enemies" book (the D&D model of PHB/DMG/MM). Subsequent "source books" are then either highly focused on specific things - a book of new stuff for one or a handful of character classes, a book of new items and equipment, a book of new enemies - or focused on adventure/campaign settings (modules, campaigns, worlds). What if you broke the mold a little and released add-ons that have something to appeal to everyone in the game? Is that viable? Like, a book which contains new items, new character options, new enemies, new settings, new a-bunch-of-stuff. Your game can be sold as some core books plus a series of add-ons which most players and GMs would maybe want to grab. I realize that there's a feeling that GMs need their own books, so players don't see the secret stuff behind the GM's screen, but this approach has been well-established as very problematic in terms of costs and sales: one can generally assume correctly that there are far fewer GMs than players, so a book for GMs only will sell far fewer copies. Especially given that many GMs like to write their own material, whereas most players prefer to stick to published content. Maybe focus on supplements that appeal to everyone all at once? No "Book of Magic Users' Additional Spells: Cantrips and More", and no "Compendium of Sweet Guns and Armor III". Just "GameSystem X Compendium I", which has new spells, and also new guns and armor. An alternative approach might be to give GM stuff away for free or nearly-free, in the form of online PDFs. Go ahead and print campaign sourcebooks that contain lots of stuff for both players and GMs, but things like adventure modules aren't going to sell well anyway, especially for a niche game, and so if you can sell them at or near cost in online PDF format they'll be more appealing to GMs (who have to carry a higher cost burden anyway, usually, since they have to also buy player supplements to keep up with what their players are doing) and use less of your resources as a publisher. Leperflesh fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Apr 24, 2013 |
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2013 18:33
|
|
|
In my opinion, I like to see an "all-in-one" core book (or maybe a 2 volume set if you have a excess of material), and then have a easily scannable/printable GM cheat sheet. Doesn't have to be a full screen, just a list of "Here's the stuff that the GM needs that the players don't need to (or shouldn't) see.
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2013 18:38
|
|
|
Leperflesh posted:What if you broke the mold a little and released add-ons that have something to appeal to everyone in the game? Is that viable? Like, a book which contains new items, new character options, new enemies, new settings, new a-bunch-of-stuff. Your game can be sold as some core books plus a series of add-ons which most players and GMs would maybe want to grab. This is what White Wolf does, it seems to work well enough. Warhammer Fantasy 3e's adventures included new player options. Indie games tend to do this. The multiple core books plus enemy book is really more of a D&D thing and I'd argue outside of D&D and Derivatives we've already seen a move to this model. Lemon Curdistan posted:I can't speak for anything except the Funhaver sales, but the DW classes have consistently sold well whereas the GM stuff hasn't sold at all. To put some numbers to it: The best selling Dungeon World GM thing I've done sold 50 copies since January. The best selling Dungeon World player thing I've done sold 60 copies in January. Mikan fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Apr 24, 2013 |
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2013 18:50
|
|
|
Mikan posted:This is what White Wolf does, it seems to work well enough. Warhammer Fantasy 3e's adventures included new player options. Indie games tend to do this. The multiple core books plus enemy book is really more of a D&D thing and I'd argue outside of D&D and Derivatives we've already seen a move to this model. Which would make sense if there were one GM for every ~5 players.
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2013 19:08
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 20, 2024 02:45 |
|
|
Leperflesh posted:I have no data about sales, so this is an aside. But, I wonder if there isn't a way to break the mold a little here. It seems in recent years (decades?) the standard format has been one to three general books that describe your game's core rules, for players and GMs, which may include a standard separate "enemies" book (the D&D model of PHB/DMG/MM). Subsequent "source books" are then either highly focused on specific things - a book of new stuff for one or a handful of character classes, a book of new items and equipment, a book of new enemies - or focused on adventure/campaign settings (modules, campaigns, worlds). Several games already do that - Eclipse Phase comes to mind - Gatecrashing for example contains setting info usable by both player and GM, new gear and traits for players and some GM only material. I think the first book will go this route - focus on an important area of the game (the superpowers black market) with lots of player specific stuff but offer an adventure and material for GMs to use as well.
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2013 19:33
|
|