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neongrey
Feb 28, 2007

Plaguing your posts with incidental music.

jivjov posted:

None of the 40+ other projects I've backed have required me to use a third party fulfillment site. Maybe my sample size is too small, but that doesn't scream "normal" to me.

Yeah I mean let me just pull out of my own history, 'cause I'm a serial backer...

The following kickstarters used external surveys and/or fulfilment sites:
-The Name of the Wind Playing cards is going to use Backerkit, since Albino Dragon was really happy with how smooth it was with the Synthesis cards (it's in their updates)
-Deadzone uses their own manager
-Albino Dragon's Synthesis playing cards used Backerkit
-Kobolds ate my Baby used Backerkit
-Guilds of Cadwallon used CMON's pledge manager
-Dice Rings used custom offsite surveys

And I mean this is just entirely from memory. Probably about 10-15% of kickstarters I've backed have used external pledge management means.

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jivjov
Sep 13, 2007

But how does it taste? Yummy!
Dinosaur Gum
Y'know what, I'm just dropping this here. It's obvious that nobody here actually wants to have a civil discussion on the topic. Its all insane ad hominem all the way down. I really wanted to try to hash something out here, maybe talk about the importance of being open and up front with your backers, or perhaps organizing a campaign to convince Kickstarter to improve their survey utilities so project creators wouldn't have to risk alienating those who don't want to use third party sites.

Instead I get called "mewling child", "whiny and entitled", "stupid", and "dumb rear end in a top hat" among other things. Have a good night goons. If anyone cares, I'll let you know what Kickstarter decides on the issue when they get back to me.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

gnome7
Oct 21, 2010

Who's this Little
Spaghetti?? ??
Reaper also made their own backer survey resource, because with how entangled and impossible their system had become, Kickstarter's would've been impossible to use.

I AM THE MOON
Dec 21, 2012

jivjov posted:

Y'know what, I'm just dropping this here. It's obvious that nobody here actually wants to have a civil discussion on the topic. Its all insane ad hominem all the way down. I really wanted to try to hash something out here, maybe talk about the importance of being open and up front with your backers, or perhaps organizing a campaign to convince Kickstarter to improve their survey utilities so project creators wouldn't have to risk alienating those who don't want to use third party sites.

Instead I get called "mewling child", "whiny and entitled", "stupid", and "dumb rear end in a top hat" among other things. Have a good night goons. If anyone cares, I'll let you know what Kickstarter decides on the issue when they get back to me.

all those things we called you are true though

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Chaotic Neutral
Aug 29, 2011
Nobody wants to have a civil discussion with a man who is not interested in having a discussion. All you want is people to agree with you, you are not willing to change your mind - if you were, you might have done so long ago, when you realized everyone thinks you're being overly paranoid and obsessed with minutiae. You even acknowledged you could make a throwaway account! You said you could do this thing. But no, you insist on not doing it, and that this alienates you, because... ???

neonchameleon
Nov 14, 2012



jivjov posted:

Y'know what, I'm just dropping this here. It's obvious that nobody here actually wants to have a civil discussion on the topic. Its all insane ad hominem all the way down. I really wanted to try to hash something out here, maybe talk about the importance of being open and up front with your backers, or perhaps organizing a campaign to convince Kickstarter to improve their survey utilities so project creators wouldn't have to risk alienating those who don't want to use third party sites.

Instead I get called "mewling child", "whiny and entitled", "stupid", and "dumb rear end in a top hat" among other things. Have a good night goons. If anyone cares, I'll let you know what Kickstarter decides on the issue when they get back to me.

It's not that no one wants to have a civilised conversation. It's that your quixotic crusade is being conducted in such a way that you don't appear able to have one. Almost all the kickstarters I've backed have either had simple rewards with no add-ons or have done an end-run round Kickstarter's system because it is crap. And I trust Evil Hat much further than I do Amazon.

InShaneee
Aug 11, 2006

Cleanse them. Cleanse the world of their ignorance and sin. Bathe them in the crimson of ... am I on speakerphone?
Fun Shoe

jivjov posted:

"mewling child", "whiny and entitled", "stupid", and "dumb rear end in a top hat"

The best you can expect from Kickstarter here is a polite form letter. I'm pretty sure they're aware of Backerkit.

I'm really curious what, hypothetically, it would've taken to put your mind at ease. You've got literally every single person in two threads telling you they're on the level, you've got Fred Hicks, who's made over half a million on KS, trusting them, and you've got over a dozen (at least) Kickstarter campaigns who've used this site in the past, and from googling, I can't find a single person complaining about Backerkit screwing them over. What is it that they need to do, as a company, at this point?

dwarf74
Sep 2, 2012



Buglord

jivjov posted:

Y'know what, I'm just dropping this here. It's obvious that nobody here actually wants to have a civil discussion on the topic. Its all insane ad hominem all the way down. I really wanted to try to hash something out here, maybe talk about the importance of being open and up front with your backers, or perhaps organizing a campaign to convince Kickstarter to improve their survey utilities so project creators wouldn't have to risk alienating those who don't want to use third party sites.

Instead I get called "mewling child", "whiny and entitled", "stupid", and "dumb rear end in a top hat" among other things. Have a good night goons. If anyone cares, I'll let you know what Kickstarter decides on the issue when they get back to me.
You forgot "sperglord."

Seriously, I'd want to remove you as a customer, too. What's your end goal, other than to block them from using a tool to expedite this complex process and force them into ks's own lovely and labor intensive tools?

Winson_Paine
Oct 27, 2000

Wait, something is wrong.

dwarf74 posted:

You forgot "sperglord."

Seriously, I'd want to remove you as a customer, too. What's your end goal, other than to block them from using a tool to expedite this complex process and force them into ks's own lovely and labor intensive tools?

OK, the bad man has flounced off and is being dealt with. Continuing to belabor the point at this point is just silly. Besides, he has gone off to ask Dad and when Kickstarter vindicates him he will presumably be back in crowning glory.

dwarf74
Sep 2, 2012



Buglord
Fair 'nuff. I wanted to bring this post over to this thread because of the whole, "is kickstarter a store?" debate. Here's Fred's thoughts... I think he makes a good point...

From here: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/evilhat/fate-core/posts/489112#comments

The discussion was about labeling international shipments as "gifts" to avoid customs fees.

quote:

If these are "gifts", then no one should be expecting to receive anything. There should be no outrage if folks do not receive goods of equivalent market value for their own "gift" of money. Do you see how that scenario would play out?
If these are "gifts", then there should be no expectation of receiving anything at all, in fact. That's observably not the case. We're open to fraud claims by backers if we do not fulfill our commitments as described in the selected tiers. Those constitute a contract of sale. A sale is occurring here.

If, in my home state of Maryland, someone walked up to Evil Hat and gave us $10,000, and then we gave that person a $10,000 car, and then told the state that no sale occurred and therefore we didn't need to pay a sales tax, because we were just giving each other gifts, they would laugh personably, clap us on the shoulder, and then introduce us to a happy fun gift palace commonly referred to as "jail".
So let's put the absurd objections to the idea that kickstarter rewards are somehow gifts aside. That simply doesn't pass muster, no matter what kind of line of crap folks have been feeding other folks about that situation. The only way that's a gift scenario is if the money being given is wildly out of proportion from the fair market value of the received good -- either we're giving you something of immense value for your no-dollars, or we're giving you something of token value for your immense dollar contribution (the latter is what public radio typically does in their fundraising drives).

If there is a gift component here for our backers, it's the PDFs. But those aren't what's getting shipped in the box.

If there is a gift component here for our international backers, it's the fact that shipping is only charged at the $15 level when in fact it's likely to be quite a lot higher than that. And remember, with over a thousand international shipments just in *this* batch, each dollar over is an additional $1000 expense that Evil Hat is taking on itself in order to keep those shipping costs where we committed for them to be.

Now, let's talk about how our third party shipping service is going to mark things.
As to *legal* customs marking on the packages, so long as regulations permit our shipper to list the contents of the package truthfully as books, we will certainly mark the package as containing books. I'll make sure that's in the notes to them.
Those are the sorts of regulations that get watched very closely. All of these are. We intend to act appropriately within the scope of the law. Because we intend to stay in business, not jail. :)

Winson_Paine
Oct 27, 2000

Wait, something is wrong.
For what it's worth, while I can see why there would be objections to using a third party service (especially after the fact) and those reasons could be valid for some people (I don't agree with them, but I can at least see how a rational person could object, basically) I gotta say more companies should use a third party fulfillment house. It cuts into profits and might cost more, but having done fulfillment for a company (well, I was the one who dealt with our fulfillment house) it is a smart move for companies that are not equipped to deal with large volume of shipping. For those who don't know what this is, there are places that will handle shipping and storage of your poo poo. You get the benefit of not having to warehouse the product and not needing to personally deal with shipping, and your customers get the benefit of discounted shipping to a degree (because the company you are dealing with gets volume discounts from doing this a lot) and it also means you don't have a hundred boxes of books in your living room you need to pack and ship yourself. It is a pro move, but it can be spendy.

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 5, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!
Yeah, I know Puzzle Strike was handled entirely through fulfillment, and the fact design was complete before the kickstarter even started meant it had the quickest turnaround time of any Kickstarter I've seen. Whatever you think of Sirlin, his handling of his Kickstarter was pro as hell. I suppose it breaks down to the old time vs. money equation. Still, having helped package Kickstarter envelopes in a dining room, I have to say it sounds like a real swell deal to avoid becoming an assembly line worker on your own product. :ssh:

dwarf74
Sep 2, 2012



Buglord
Just got my Fate Dice backerkit link. Holy poo poo was that smooth and easy. It recognized my extra money, I easily picked out my dice, and I have a link to manage my pledge. Just awesome.

I don't know why every somewhat complicated kickstarter doesn't use it.

LumberingTroll
Sep 9, 2007

Really it's not because
I don't like you...

dwarf74 posted:

Just got my Fate Dice backerkit link. Holy poo poo was that smooth and easy. It recognized my extra money, I easily picked out my dice, and I have a link to manage my pledge. Just awesome.

I don't know why every somewhat complicated kickstarter doesn't use it.

Yeah, I already decided I will be using it for my next Kickstarter.

Cheap Trick
Jan 4, 2007

Alien Rope Burn posted:

Yeah, I know Puzzle Strike was handled entirely through fulfillment, and the fact design was complete before the kickstarter even started meant it had the quickest turnaround time of any Kickstarter I've seen. Whatever you think of Sirlin, his handling of his Kickstarter was pro as hell. I suppose it breaks down to the old time vs. money equation. Still, having helped package Kickstarter envelopes in a dining room, I have to say it sounds like a real swell deal to avoid becoming an assembly line worker on your own product. :ssh:

I can remember a few Kickstarters which posted photos of books and things ready to be shipped, and there'd typically be multiple piles of boxes sometimes reaching ceiling-height. Much better having a fulfillment company handle all the logistics, especially if you live in an apartment where space would be at a premium already. Plus they'd probably be better at keeping track of "who gets what" for many-tiered KSes.

Zereth
Jul 9, 2003



Cheap Trick posted:

Plus they'd probably be better at keeping track of "who gets what" for many-tiered KSes.
I have two copies of Last Stand for exactly this reason.

Mikan
Sep 5, 2007

by Radium

Yep. Next Kickstarter (if I do one - I'm lucky enough to be in a situation where I can finance my next three or four books) will almost certainly use a fulfillment service. I'm still shipping books, they're still taking up a ton of space, and a few jerks got two copies thanks to an outdated shipping list.

Kwyndig
Sep 23, 2006

Heeeeeey


Winson_Paine posted:

For what it's worth, while I can see why there would be objections to using a third party service (especially after the fact) and those reasons could be valid for some people (I don't agree with them, but I can at least see how a rational person could object, basically) I gotta say more companies should use a third party fulfillment house. It cuts into profits and might cost more, but having done fulfillment for a company (well, I was the one who dealt with our fulfillment house) it is a smart move for companies that are not equipped to deal with large volume of shipping. For those who don't know what this is, there are places that will handle shipping and storage of your poo poo. You get the benefit of not having to warehouse the product and not needing to personally deal with shipping, and your customers get the benefit of discounted shipping to a degree (because the company you are dealing with gets volume discounts from doing this a lot) and it also means you don't have a hundred boxes of books in your living room you need to pack and ship yourself. It is a pro move, but it can be spendy.

Hell, I work for a company that has a fulfillment house as one of their lines of business, and yes it is a little spendy, but even goddamn giant companies (like say, Mondelēz International, Inc., manufacturers of delicious Oreo cookies) use them for promotional materials or whatever because that isn't their core business. If you're a company who makes books, and you're suddenly expanding into another area (like Evil Hat is with dice) or hell, you're just one guy coordinating an army of freelancers (like Andy Kitkowski) than hiring a fulfillment house, while eating into your bottom line, is just good business.

Gau
Nov 18, 2003

I don't think you understand, Gau.
What do typical contracts look like for fulfillment houses? I assume it's basically a per-item fee, but is there a setup cost or anything else?

Cheap Trick
Jan 4, 2007

Zereth posted:

I have two copies of Last Stand for exactly this reason.

And I have zero copies :v: (It's okay Mikan, you are a cool dude)

Mikan
Sep 5, 2007

by Radium

Cheap Trick posted:

And I have zero copies :v: (It's okay Mikan, you are a cool dude)

You have to fly out to Zereth and get the copy I sent him. It's part of my new fulfillment process.
Seriously though, posts like that are why you should use a fulfillment service. I'm still struggling to get all the books and cards out to folks, and the box sets are only just now about to ship.

Krabkolash
Dec 7, 2006

With this hand I rolled 8d20



AND GOT 160.
https://twitter.com/fredhicks/status/352541507183587328

If you don't want to click on the link to his twitter I guess

quote:

Fred Hicks Fred Hicks ‏@fredhicks

Backerkit cost us about 1% of our actual #FateDice take (~$700). $ value of add-ons it has helped us sell on top of pledges: ~$3400. #win

Guess it is pretty clear that kickstarter really needs to work on their options for that sort of thing. Sounds like Backerit is really working out for Evil Hat though. I suspect we'll see more and more big kickstarters going with it after hearing that.

dwarf74
Sep 2, 2012



Buglord

Krabkolash posted:

https://twitter.com/fredhicks/status/352541507183587328

If you don't want to click on the link to his twitter I guess


Guess it is pretty clear that kickstarter really needs to work on their options for that sort of thing. Sounds like Backerit is really working out for Evil Hat though. I suspect we'll see more and more big kickstarters going with it after hearing that.
I don't doubt it. I'm strongly considering pitching in for a third set of dice. I've been hemming and hawing about which two I want, and changed it once in the system already(another step that would have been crazy-annoying if Fred were doing this manually).

But can I justify spending $50 on dice I may never use? That's where I am.

Winson_Paine
Oct 27, 2000

Wait, something is wrong.

Gau posted:

What do typical contracts look like for fulfillment houses? I assume it's basically a per-item fee, but is there a setup cost or anything else?

The place that we worked with was more or less robbing us blind. There was a warehouse fee (reasonable enough), a per order fee, a pick fee, packaging fees, and handling fees and then shipping. My bosses were dumb so we ate all of that.

jivjov
Sep 13, 2007

But how does it taste? Yummy!
Dinosaur Gum
Just wanted to pop back in here and apologize for taking things a bit too personally the other day. I still stand by my points, but I did get too heated about it.

As a capstone to the whole thing, per a Kickstarter Support rep, fulfillment options are at the discretion of project creators, and until/unless a third party survey system is used fraudulently or abused in some way, they're fine with them.

Also, I will admit that Backerkit turns out to be a pretty well put together utility. Maybe Kickstarter should actually officially partner with them.

moths
Aug 25, 2004

I would also still appreciate some danger.



Something about crowd-funding has been bothering me for a while, and this is a better place to discuss it than the announcement thread. I've quoted two posts from that thread to illustrate what I'm talking about.

Jedit posted:

That middle mascot looks decidedly familiar.



That's because it's Lying Cat from Brian K Vaughan's Saga.

Eyespy posted:

If you want a Blood Bowl Indigogo, how about this Star Wars themed one?


Between this and ten-thousand Firefly crews and "homage" figures, there is a lot of stealing going on. I don't think Disney or GW will go bankrupt because some guy is making Star Wars Blood Bowl teams, but I do feel that artist should get paid for their work. This also cheats legitimate studios who go through hoops to make above-board tie-ins.

I'm wondering if crowd-funding accommodates infringement because of the short window it gives owners to respond and challenge it; Other short-term sales sites like Tee Fury have been caught shamelessly stealing with very little consequence. Another possibility is that the owner doesn't want to be the "bad guy" to the backers who have already paid for the item. (Not to mention that the creators can argue that nothing was sold because KICKSTARTERS ISNT A STORE OK? and these are all gifts or rewards.) Or the thing is perceived as too small-potatoes to bother with.

I don't think this is going to destroy gaming forever or anything that hyperbolic, I just cringe every time I see this stuff. It's tacky and I and worry that it'll eventually provoke a disproportional sweeping response that hurts future projects.

jivjov
Sep 13, 2007

But how does it taste? Yummy!
Dinosaur Gum
Legally speaking, I think it is defensible. Kickstarter isn't a store from a legalistic perspective (aside: Fred Hicks has a wonderful blog post "Kickstarter isn't a store but it is a market" that captures the issue really well) and so as long as the Star Wars/firefly/etc figures are only used as Kickstarter rewards, then I don't believe there's a legal leg to stand on.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised that in the event of a lawsuit, that would be the approach of the prosecution "This venue is a store, they are selling copyrighted material".

Free Gratis
Apr 17, 2002

Karate Jazz Wolf
Copyright and Trademark violations are still violations regardless if they're for profit or not.

Half-life and Skyrim mods available freely for download can be Cease and Desisted if they contain copyrighted or trademarked materials.

jivjov
Sep 13, 2007

But how does it taste? Yummy!
Dinosaur Gum

Bosushi! posted:

Copyright and Trademark violations are still violations regardless if they're for profit or not.

Half-life and Skyrim mods available freely for download can be Cease and Desisted if they contain copyrighted or trademarked materials.

I thought that was because of the wide distribution. If I sit at home and carve a perfect likeness of Darth Vader out of wood and give it to my dad as a gift, I'm pretty sure that's not copyright/trademark infringement.

Kickstarter gets around it by way of "oh yes, I'm making these minis that greatly resemble the characters from Firefly and giving them as gifts to people. These people happened to pledge $X to my campaign to fund my minis line, but I did not sell or give them to the public."

Fuego Fish
Dec 5, 2004

By tooth and claw!
If I sit at home and give out a couple of hundred Darth Vaders to people who have given me money specifically so they can get those Darth Vaders, you'd best believe that I am going to be dragged to Skywalker Ranch in the trunk of a car and beaten with replica lightsabers until I wet myself.

Or the closest legal equivalent.

Pope Guilty
Nov 6, 2006

The human animal is a beautiful and terrible creature, capable of limitless compassion and unfathomable cruelty.

Bosushi! posted:

Copyright and Trademark violations are still violations regardless if they're for profit or not.

Half-life and Skyrim mods available freely for download can be Cease and Desisted if they contain copyrighted or trademarked materials.

This used to be called "Foxing", after the time Fox c&d'd an Aliens Quake mod.

Free Gratis
Apr 17, 2002

Karate Jazz Wolf

jivjov posted:

I thought that was because of the wide distribution. If I sit at home and carve a perfect likeness of Darth Vader out of wood and give it to my dad as a gift, I'm pretty sure that's not copyright/trademark infringement.

The test for trademark infringement revolves around market confusion. It doesn't have to involve actual confused people, only the potential for market confusion. Even if you weasel the indiegogo as the customers giving money to the creator and receiving a "gift" in exchange, it's still introducing a product into the marketplace that could conceivably be confused as an official Disney product.

In your example you have still technically violated Disney's trademark but Disney won't likely come after you as you carved only one and its source is clear. They're also not going to go after a 6 year old for doing a Crayola(tm) drawing of Yoda for his dad to put on a refrigerator.

moths
Aug 25, 2004

I would also still appreciate some danger.



Disney has a history of absurdly pursuing violations. I mean, if a reasonable person looks at the Star Wars Bloodbowl stuff, they're going to come to the conclusion that it's low quality Star Wars or Games Workshop merchandise. Which it isn't. I can't imagine inviting that legal ruin into my house, much less ordering it with a side dish of Games Workshop. Yet, here it is.

I worry someone will cross a line and the pendulum will swing the other way, with big companies aggressively policing and c&d'ing original designs. A new wargame about the space battle for planet Iwo Jima IV? Not if it contains the words "space" and "marine" consecutively.

Bucnasti
Aug 14, 2012

I'll Fetch My Sarcasm Robes
Kickstarter is still (barely) flying under the radar of these big corporate IP holders. Once Disney, Fox, GW, WB etc notice this stuff Cease and Desist letters will start to fly. Very likely KS will be forced to police their own much like Youtube.

The law in this case is squarely on the IP holders side, and yes if you carved a Darth Vader action figure out of soap and gave it to your dad it is technically a copyright violation, it's just not one that is worth Disney perusing.

Leperflesh
May 17, 2007

We've already seen this with the rust monster thing a goon ran up against. Wizards of the Coast might be more aware of Kickstarter than Disney or Games Workshop for whatever reason, but that situation won't last.

Kerzoro
Jun 26, 2010

The rust monster thing did have a happy ending in that people did end up getting their plush rust monsters (and they are adorable). Heck, I think a few other projects have been contacted by Wizards to change some things, often AFTER the project has ended, although Rusty was the only one where the project itself was shut down (that I know of).

I... have my doubts the same would fly for that star-wars blood-bowl thing.

Cheap Trick
Jan 4, 2007

Kerzoro posted:

The rust monster thing did have a happy ending in that people did end up getting their plush rust monsters (and they are adorable).

They are the cutest guardians of my bookshelf :kimchi:

Kickstarter-related question: what caused the price of international shipping from the US to skyrocket recently? Is this only affecting USPS, or are courier companies hiking up their rates too?

jivjov
Sep 13, 2007

But how does it taste? Yummy!
Dinosaur Gum
Can't tell you a reason, other than perhaps rising oil prices, but to the best of my knowledge its drat near universal. Shipping anything overseas is now a big ticket affair.

Mikan
Sep 5, 2007

by Radium

I have no idea what caused it and it took almost every RPG designer I've spoken with by surprise. A lot of folks who ran Kickstarters around June-August of last year were charging $5 or so extra for international shipping, and are now paying out 25-45. It's all couriers, not just USPS.

I'm actually losing money now for a number of backers and I know I'm not alone in that. I wouldn't be surprised to see more kickstarters straight up not offering international shipping options.

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sexpig by night
Sep 8, 2011

by Azathoth
Yea I'm not going to be shocked at all when I see the first 'hey we need money to make this passion project RPG/boardgame/whatever, also no way can we ship internationally, sorry duders.'

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