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homullus posted:Spewing poo poo and venting rage do not get rid of a Zak S. Those acts make more Zaks. Extremism begets extremism and Exhibit loving A is the US political climate. Be as wrong as you like, as long as you like being on Team Making poo poo Worse For Everyone You Think You're Helping. Voting with your dollars, shining a light on his bullshit, and speaking reasonably to those who make decisions about games are the only ways you're gonna see him out of the hobby. He isn't gonna quit because you call him names. I am of the opinion that voting with my wallet is best supplemented with a healthy dose of ostracism and shunning. The post makes a point about fostering reconciliation within the community, and I see no reason why I should respect people who want to break bread with subhuman filth like Zak S. gently caress them, the horse they rode in on, and every single person that chooses to do business with them.
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Jul 27, 2016 01:18
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Lightning Lord fucked around with this message at 07:54 on Aug 25, 2016 |
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Jul 27, 2016 01:21
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What it comes down to is that forgiving abuse is not a way to absolve oneself of one's own perceived faults, as much as it may seem logically so. I'm going to go out in a limb here and say, yeah, there needs to be more balanced representation in the community. At the same time, I'm not sure trying to shame companies for hiring white, male writers when that still describes a good chunk of their hiring pool is all that productive. I mean, if a company is actively passing up minorities, that's a problem, and overall as a community there needs to be more outreach and diversity. But difficulties with inclusion is not the same issue as deliberate exclusion and expulsion.
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Jul 27, 2016 01:22
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Alien Rope Burn posted:I'm going to go out in a limb here and say, yeah, there needs to be more balanced representation in the community. At the same time, I'm not sure trying to shame companies for hiring white, male writers when that still describes a good chunk of their hiring pool is all that productive. I mean, if a company is actively passing up minorities, that's a problem, and overall as a community there needs to be more outreach and diversity. But difficulties with inclusion is not the same issue as deliberate exclusion and expulsion.
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Jul 27, 2016 01:27
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Countblanc posted:Until that post I didn't even know that liking crunchier games was trad game codespeak for being a neo-con and liking rules-lite games was a sign of moral purity. Basically all the crazy neet marxists and leftists I know play crunch-heavy games (primarily D&D 4e). The RPGPundit, aka Jon Tarnowski, Karl Urbanski, whatever he's calling himself these days, has made a whole lot of hay conflating people who enjoy "storygames" (aka Fate, Apoc World, whatever he doesn't like at this moment) with ultra-leftist socialist communist homofascist social justice barbarians trying to subvert the hobby from within and I'm not actually exaggerating that much. I'm not trying to suggest that Pundit is the face of the OSR any more than Zak is or that OSR people consider him a cool dude with good opinions but it's worth noting that there are absolutely people out there who try really hard to draw this sort of elfgame/political morality divide (see all the people absolutely furious at Blue Rose for dumb, ill-defined reasons, also something Pundit got the ball rolling on way back when).
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Jul 27, 2016 01:28
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Evil Mastermind posted:It's really just straight-up tone policing. The idea that context or intent don't matter; all that matters is that Rob used swear words. Saying that engaging on issues (if you engage at all) might help and content-less bile makes things worse is not tone policing. There is no content to the cited posts by Robert Bohl, nothing but a steaming dump taken on the internet. Serf posted:I am of the opinion that voting with my wallet is best supplemented with a healthy dose of ostracism and shunning. The post makes a point about fostering reconciliation within the community, and I see no reason why I should respect people who want to break bread with subhuman filth like Zak S. gently caress them, the horse they rode in on, and every single person that chooses to do business with them. I don't care about people walking out of the Ennies or voting with their wallets or even telling people why they're voting with their wallets the way they are. The latter especially is valuable. I am not calling for anyone to make peace with anyone. Lightning Lord posted:I agree that just going apeshit to prove how Woke as gently caress you are isn't very helpful but sometimes letting someone know, in very clear terms, that their poo poo won't be tolerated is indeed helpful.
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Jul 27, 2016 01:29
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Making a post like Robert's is almost always something you regret later, for any number of reasons, but that doesn't invalidate the hurt, fear and anger that brings it out. I think it's pretty shameful to focus so much opprobrium on the person who yelled in the middle of a restaurant, instead of the guy next to him not-so-slyly farting directly at him for an hour.
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Jul 27, 2016 01:30
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You know what the world could use more of, chastising people who get pissed at shitheads, that always goes down a treat.
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Jul 27, 2016 01:31
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Look I know that guy is a huge rear end in a top hat and also pretty stalkery and a harasser but have you ever considered that the problem here might be how you choose to engage him
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Jul 27, 2016 01:32
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homullus posted:I don't care about people walking out of the Ennies or voting with their wallets or even telling people why they're voting with their wallets the way they are. The latter especially is valuable. I am not calling for anyone to make peace with anyone. The post is the one arguing that we should reconcile. I get that you understand that Zak S is a dangerous waste of skin, but this post is one of those limp-wristed, mewling cries for unity that have become something of a nerd industry standard. I ain't down for that. Talk poo poo about people. Tell them they suck. Let other people know why they suck and what they did to deserve hate. Show people that not only will you not do business with Zak S and his supporters, but that their poo poo will not be tolerated in our community. These people skate by because folks won't say anything. Time for that to end.
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Jul 27, 2016 01:36
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Kai Tave posted:Look I know that guy is a huge rear end in a top hat and also pretty stalkery and a harasser but have you ever considered that the problem here might be how you choose to engage him Look, I know that neighborhood kid is hitting everybody with his slingshot and is actually causing some more serious injuries but have you ever considered that the problem here might be how you keep bringing him ammo
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Jul 27, 2016 01:37
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homullus posted:Look, I know that neighborhood kid is hitting everybody with his slingshot and is actually causing some more serious injuries but have you ever considered that the problem here might be how you keep bringing him ammo I agree, the real problem with Zak is we aren't blaming his victims hard enough.
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Jul 27, 2016 01:39
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homullus posted:Look, I know that neighborhood kid is hitting everybody with his slingshot and is actually causing some more serious injuries but have you ever considered that the problem here might be how you keep bringing him ammo Are you drinking? Your posts in this thread keep getting worse.
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Jul 27, 2016 01:44
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homullus posted:Look, I know that neighborhood kid is hitting everybody with his slingshot and is actually causing some more serious injuries but have you ever considered that the problem here might be how you keep bringing him ammo so the best option in your mind is to ignore the neighborhood bully while he's busy picking on a new target and hoping the other kid learns some valuable life lesson from getting an eye shot out? Or do you have some other awkward child metaphor for internet stalking and death threats that is applicable?
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Jul 27, 2016 01:47
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Kai Tave posted:I agree, the real problem with Zak is we aren't blaming his victims hard enough. It was only a matter of time before we got the classic internet spiral of "oh yeah? I'm going to misrepresent your position to get my zinger in! I'ma show you!" so thanks to forums user Kai Tave for kicking things off with a solid effort. I'll leave the last word to you, with anything you'd like to add! Edit: you were beaten by 9 minutes, Forums User Nuns with Guns, but we will count that one too. homullus fucked around with this message at 01:52 on Jul 27, 2016 |
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Jul 27, 2016 01:48
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Keeping on with the stupid kid-and-his-slingshot analogy, nobody is making the neighborhood Zak shoot people with his slingshot. The idea that all of his targets are coercing him into doing so by giving him the ammunition is patently ludicrous, even moreso given that Zak isn't a young child but an actual grown-rear end man. "Well he said a mean thing about me so clearly I had to harass the poo poo out of them" isn't actually a great excuse even when people with underdeveloped brains use it, it doesn't somehow magically become better when someone is suggesting it as a defense for an adult behaving badly.homullus posted:It was only a matter of time before we got the classic internet spiral of "oh yeah? I'm going to misrepresent your position to get my zinger in! I'ma show you!" so thanks to forums user Kai Tave for kicking things off with a solid effort. I'll leave the last word to you, with anything you'd like to add! Maybe you'd like to better explain your point re: people giving Zak ammunition is the real problem but I get the impression that you're completely convinced of the rightness of what is a really stupid argument, so I suppose my final word is you seem like kind of a huge dickhead.
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Jul 27, 2016 01:50
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homullus posted:It was only a matter of time before we got the classic internet spiral of "oh yeah? I'm going to misrepresent your position to get my zinger in! I'ma show you!" so thanks to forums user Kai Tave for kicking things off with a solid effort. I'll leave the last word to you, with anything you'd like to add! You yourself referred to insulting Zak back as "bringing him more ammo", i.e. Enabling him, and saying that this is part of the problem. Many of the people who insult Zak are either his victims, or friends of his victims, and insult him because of personal experience with him. You are literally victim-blaming here, whether deliberately or because you ran with your terrible metaphor way too far.
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Jul 27, 2016 01:50
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quote:If you tread on someone's toes, and they tell you to get off, then get off their toes. Don't tell them to 'ask nicely'.
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Jul 27, 2016 01:54
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Lightning Lord fucked around with this message at 07:51 on Aug 25, 2016 |
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Jul 27, 2016 01:57
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Before I say anything about Zak or this naive idiot calling for us to be more civil to him...who are the people on the "storygame" side of the hobby who are just as bad as Zak and Tarnowski, and what did they do? I don't keep up with G+ or whatever other social media drama in the hobby, so as far as I know, this "Storygame vs. OSR = Left-wing vs. Right-wing" is an imaginary issue. AFAIK, equating people who play different games with a political conspiracy is completely one way, and only the obsession of Tarnowski and his admirers.
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Jul 27, 2016 02:00
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Lightning Lord posted:I think there's some perception among people that some are saying that literally everyone who has a copy of Vornheim sitting on their shelf has blood on their hands. I don't really think that's been said by anyone at all, and I think that fuels some of the more vigorous defense of Zak's actions. Well okay, I mean personally I have no interest in giving Zak S money for a variety of reasons but I also don't plan to turn my nose up at someone if I discover they own a copy of Vornheim or whatever, I'm not really interested in policing anyone's purchasing habits besides my own. We're not talking about Mein Kampf here or a proudly showcased collection of race-war survivalist fiction. I do think it's lovely for people to try and argue that the real problem with Zak is that people keep baiting him into behaving badly, as though he has no control over his actions, and that if only everyone could be a perfect rational actor none of this would be happening. If Zak S has a reputation for being an rear end in a top hat it's one he earned honestly, that you can maybe (maybe) rustle up an example of someone who takes Zak hate too far doesn't really change that. edit; this isn't really addressed to you in particular because I know you're not personally arguing that point.
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Jul 27, 2016 02:04
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homullus posted:It was only a matter of time before we got the classic internet spiral of "oh yeah? I'm going to misrepresent your position to get my zinger in! I'ma show you!" so thanks to forums user Kai Tave for kicking things off with a solid effort. I'll leave the last word to you, with anything you'd like to add! Edit: you were beaten by 9 minutes, Forums User Nuns with Guns, but we will count that one too. Woaaah anticipatory comebacks, we've hit a new meta layer here! but no I just really don't know what you're getting at. Thanks for assuming there was some mad scramble to dogpile you and I didn't see Kai Tave posting on top of whatever it is you're saying about the most sanctified way to engage with internet weirdos tho Nuns with Guns fucked around with this message at 02:08 on Jul 27, 2016 |
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Jul 27, 2016 02:05
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I mean I'm not really sure how you make an argument that's literally "it's your fault for giving someone ammunition that you got hurt" and not expect to be called out for victim blaming, I suppose only time will be able to tell if this was actually a profound and meaningful argument that I've unfairly twisted to score internet cool kid points or if everyone who looks at that comes away with the same impression that I did.
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Jul 27, 2016 02:08
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Lightning Lord fucked around with this message at 07:52 on Aug 25, 2016 |
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Jul 27, 2016 02:12
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homullus posted:Look, I know that neighborhood kid is hitting everybody with his slingshot and is actually causing some more serious injuries but have you ever considered that the problem here might be how you keep bringing him ammo I Jesus loving christ. You do realize that the "ammo" Z uses is the words and stances of people he disagrees with, right? That's why he does what he does. That's how harassment works. Z once put me on a list of people that nobody should talk gaming with because I'm apparently a hypocrite or something because I +1'd a post on G+ that Z had a problem with part of and I wouldn't undo the +1. So it was my loving fault that I got put on that list because Z disagreed with that post? If I had just knuckled under I would have been fine? Z caused Mikan to leave the hobby and the loving internet because she made games and had opinions that Z didn't agree with. So it was her fault that she got targeted; if she didn't do stuff Z didn't like she wouldn't have got harassed? You might want to think real hard before you answer. Because there's what you think you're saying, and what you're actually saying. Goddamnit I had just calmed down too.
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Jul 27, 2016 02:24
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Halloween Jack posted:Before I say anything about Zak or this naive idiot calling for us to be more civil to him...who are the people on the "storygame" side of the hobby who are just as bad as Zak and Tarnowski, and what did they do? Whoops slightly misread that. Evil Mastermind posted:This is MadScientistWorking fucked around with this message at 02:30 on Jul 27, 2016 |
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Jul 27, 2016 02:24
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Get Zak to try the engaging people nicely schtick first.
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Jul 27, 2016 02:25
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Roland Jones posted:You yourself referred to insulting Zak back as "bringing him more ammo", i.e. Enabling him, and saying that this is part of the problem. Many people who insult Zak are victims or close to them. Kai Tave posted:I mean I'm not really sure how you make an argument that's literally "it's your fault for giving someone ammunition that you got hurt" and not expect to be called out for victim blaming, I suppose only time will be able to tell if this was actually a profound and meaningful argument that I've unfairly twisted to score internet cool kid points or if everyone who looks at that comes away with the same impression that I did. Ok, no more metaphors. I am surprised it was not clear, but am sorry for that. We have a situation where Zak S is wronging people within the law -- there is no legal recourse. We know that raging against him publicly does not discourage him at all; he has targeted people who have done so, and wronged them as well. His supporters, seeing the public bile against him, have their beliefs about him confirmed. Some, emboldened, contribute to his wrongs against others, or initiate their own. I do not see how posts like Robert Bohl's get Zak S out of the hobby; if you do, please explain. How does that get him out of the industry, if he won't stop it? How do posts like Robert Bohl's convince somebody who doesn't know about Zak's poo poo that they shouldn't support him? How do you see this working? Because it looks to me as though the current path of leaving content-free poo poo all over the internet is helping as much as sweeping it under the rug of One Big Tent/We're All Gamers Here. homullus fucked around with this message at 02:48 on Jul 27, 2016 |
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Jul 27, 2016 02:40
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I'm not gonna claim people who bought whatever his book was have blood on their hands. I am going to state that mealy mouthed enablers like this Mark Truman absolutely do. Zak S continues to harass because people like this are so eager to bodily hurl themselves out to ensure he never, ever faces any repercussions.
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Jul 27, 2016 02:41
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Evil Mastermind posted:This is Compare this post to Robert Bohl's. One of the two might cause somebody to change their mind about Zak S.
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Jul 27, 2016 02:56
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ProfessorCirno posted:I'm not gonna claim people who bought whatever his book was have blood on their hands. I am going to state that mealy mouthed enablers like this Mark Truman absolutely do. Zak S continues to harass because people like this are so eager to bodily hurl themselves out to ensure he never, ever faces any repercussions. There's only two ways the RPG hobby will be rid of Zak: getting an overwhelming majority to collectively tell him to gently caress off, or he gets run over by a truck. Considering these two options, the truck one is the only likely one of the two because as a group, we can't even decide on what counts as an RPG, much less tell a supremely toxic 40 year old manchild to shut the gently caress up already.
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Jul 27, 2016 02:57
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edit; I don't even think an overwhelming majority telling him to gently caress off would accomplish that. Gareth-Michael Skarka's name is synonymous with mud and he has people willing to leap to his defense. I don't even think a lot of RPGsite posters like the Pundit, and this didn't stop the head of D&D from reaching out to make him an Official D&D Consultant.homullus posted:Ok, no more metaphors. I am surprised it was not clear, but am sorry for that. We have a situation where Zak S is wronging people within the law -- there is no legal recourse. We know that raging against him publicly does not discourage him at all; he has targeted people who have done so, and wronged them as well. His supporters, seeing the public bile against him, have their beliefs about him confirmed. Some, emboldened, contribute to his wrongs against others, or initiate their own. If the ultimate endgoal is to drive Zak S from the hobby forevermore I'm afraid that this isn't going to happen short of everyone spontaneously developing a literal hivemind. Voting with your wallet will not do so, I don't believe I've ever seen a single instance of a tradgames person behaving lovely and concerted economic pressure banishing them from the scene, nor will trying to take some kind of high-minded road of non-engagement because "just ignore them" has not ever actually worked to make things better in the history of anything that I'm aware of. Zak S will get out of the hobby when he grows bored with it or drops dead, so I don't think couching things in terms of "how does this help get him out of the hobby?" is actually a helpful way to approach things because I don't view that as a reasonable or even realistic goal. It would be nice if huge harassing assholes could somehow be made to gently caress off to the land of wind and ghosts to reflect on their poor behavior, but I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon, and so I think the more relevant argument is what does it help to tell people with legitimate grievances with Zak to bite their tongues? Is that going to actually accomplish anything significant? I don't think it would. Zak would be an rear end in a top hat whether people talked poo poo about him or not. I'm not really invested in trying to drive Zak S from the hobby because I view that as a supremely fruitless endeavor. I'm also not really invested in wagging my finger at people who tell Zak to go gently caress himself. Kai Tave fucked around with this message at 03:05 on Jul 27, 2016 |
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Jul 27, 2016 03:03
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homullus posted:Compare this post to Robert Bohl's. One of the two might cause somebody to change their mind about Zak S. You loving sack of poo poo. How loving dare you compare me to an rear end in a top hat who runs harassment campaigns againt people including myself and act like I don't ahve the loving right to be angry about your goddamn victim blaming I don't care if I catch a loving ban for this. gently caress YOU gently caress YOU gently caress YOUgently caress YOU gently caress YOUgently caress YOU gently caress YOU
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Jul 27, 2016 03:07
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Actually, the post was about how you and that person are different.
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Jul 27, 2016 03:09
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Bongo Bill posted:Actually, the post was about how you and that person are different. Not unless you're a mind reader, because nothing of the sort was said.
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Jul 27, 2016 03:13
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Kai Tave posted:If the ultimate endgoal is to drive Zak S from the hobby forevermore I'm afraid that this isn't going to happen short of everyone spontaneously developing a literal hivemind. Voting with your wallet will not do so, I don't believe I've ever seen a single instance of a tradgames person behaving lovely and concerted economic pressure banishing them from the scene, nor will trying to take some kind of high-minded road of non-engagement because "just ignore them" has not ever actually worked to make things better in the history of anything that I'm aware of. Zak S will get out of the hobby when he grows bored with it or drops dead, so I don't think couching things in terms of "how does this help get him out of the hobby?" is actually a helpful way to approach things because I don't view that as a reasonable or even realistic goal. So, again, compare Bohl's post and Evil Mastermind's. Do you feel Evil Mastermind was biting their tongue? If there is a game maker looking to hire, let's say consultants, for no particular reason whatsoever, which post is more likely to give the game maker pause? I agree that getting him to change or leave is unlikely, but if we're holding up Doing Nothing as the greatest evil, then it's still bad here to not try to make a difference where you could conceivably. Real question: Do we agree that engaging him directly when there is a disagreement doesn't seem to help anyone?
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Jul 27, 2016 03:14
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Evil Mastermind posted:You loving sack of poo poo. How loving dare you compare me to an rear end in a top hat who runs harassment campaigns againt people including myself and act like I don't ahve the loving right to be angry about your goddamn victim blaming Ah, no, sorry. I meant that your post was the kind of thing that is helpful -- it provides information about what has happened. People who don't know about Zak, even in this thread, might have found your post informative. I don't want you to be banned.
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Jul 27, 2016 03:15
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Hey folks. Not asking the thread to be ~polite and civil~, but it could use a little chill.
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Jul 27, 2016 03:18
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homullus posted:So, again, compare Bohl's post and Evil Mastermind's. Do you feel Evil Mastermind was biting their tongue? If there is a game maker looking to hire, let's say consultants, for no particular reason whatsoever, which post is more likely to give the game maker pause? I think that most people looking to hire freelancers or consultants or whoever in this hobby are inclined to see what they want to see first and foremost. The Pundit's behavior isn't exactly a well-hidden secret, for example, and this didn't give Mike Mearls the slightest pause. I also think it's kind of lovely to chide people, however well-meaning you might see yourself as being, for not doing things properly in some nebulous and highly unlikely endgame of turfing Zak S out of the hobby. Directly engaging Zak doesn't help, but neither does ignoring him, neither does trying to be a reasonable and measured rational actor with him, neither does anything seem to be his particular kryptonite so with that in mind if the people Zak harasses decide to call him a ratsucking scumfuck then I don't really view this as some counterproductive action that's undermining a hearts and minds campaign.
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Jul 27, 2016 03:25
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So on the one hand I do think that everyone should strive to be better. But on the other hand practically everyone is already better than RPG Voldemort by virtue of not being someone who gives others justifiable panic attacks. There are a lot of people who would very much like to be able to just ignore him, but he won't let them because they get a swarm of harassment that just happens to coincide with every time he has a new book coming out. If you read the comments on that G+ post, there are people--disproportionately women--who are feeling afraid right now because there's yet another Zak Thing coming. There are legitimate issues with the story games crowd, especially when it comes to living up to the values they espouse, but not supporting a convention or walking out of an awards show are pretty small things compared to harassing people out of the industry entirely.
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Jul 27, 2016 03:39
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