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Rulebook Heavily posted:Welcome to the hundreds of years of rape culture! Yeah, I agree.
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Aug 6, 2013 06:50
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So I had kind of a weird kickstarter experience with Up Front, which I backed in January, not knowing much about the company reprinting it other than they'd had prior successful kickstarters. Up Front already exists, basically all they're doing is generating new art assets and reprinting the rules, so I figured there wasn't much chance of it going wrong and plonked down the $120 or whatever it was to get the insane number of expansions they offered as stretch goals. Turns out that the guys doing the reprinting actually owe some dude in the states 400 grand or something like that, have multiple outstanding judgements against them for the money and have been evading paying them. They had what I assume was the KS money seized in Texas and I figured I was SOL. I wrote Amazon Payments indicating that the Kickstarter hadn't disclosed any risks, when outstanding judgements and ongoing litigation are pretty clearly risks, and AP pretty much told me to gently caress off and take it up with my card issuer if they didn't deliver by the delivery date. Well, money being seized and all, no Up Front has been forthcoming, so I called my CC company after passing the June delivery date and they pretty much instantly gave me a non-delivery chargeback. I'm really surprised by how easy it was to get my money back on that and I'm wondering why there's been so much hand-wringing over the risks of KS if all it takes is a card chargeback. Does anyone know how this works? Does Amazon Payments now go back and try to recoup the losses from the merchant?
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Aug 6, 2013 07:06
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Bucnasti posted:I would like to request a list of everyone who backs this KS, so I can be sure to NEVER EVER PLAY ANYTHING WITH THEM. Fortunately, KS makes it all available at the click of a link: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1019114683/the-misery-index-terrible-games-about-terrible-rea/backers jivjov posted:The problem with this analogy is that in this case, the game is not being forced on you. The creators are not coming to your house, sitting you down, and making you play the game. No, instead they're coming and making GBS threads into the collective pool that we all play in (the tradgames industry), and for some reason you expect everyone to be okay with that because these guys are taking a poo poo in the other corner right this moment. It's a pool. The turds they poo poo into the water are contaminating the whole thing for everyone involved. Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 08:42 on Aug 6, 2013 |
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Aug 6, 2013 08:38
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The General posted:And the Victim (who is a player) gets to day whatever they want, but don't get to add anything officially, unless the Sword and the Thief agree. And you're supposed to reflect on what you did afterwards, but as the player isn't acting under their own agency any kind of guilt you might have about graphically raping a woman to win a boardgame is automatically transferred away. No matter what you do or how you feel about it, the entire thing boils down to "it wasn't really my fault and she wouldn't have been raped if she hadn't been there".
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Aug 6, 2013 08:45
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Paper Mac posted:So I had kind of a weird kickstarter experience with Up Front, which I backed in January, not knowing much about the company reprinting it other than they'd had prior successful kickstarters. Up Front already exists, basically all they're doing is generating new art assets and reprinting the rules, so I figured there wasn't much chance of it going wrong and plonked down the $120 or whatever it was to get the insane number of expansions they offered as stretch goals. Oof, I'm really glad I decided not to drop a bunch of money on Up Front now.
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Aug 6, 2013 09:05
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Jedit posted:And you're supposed to reflect on what you did afterwards, but as the player isn't acting under their own agency any kind of guilt you might have about graphically raping a woman to win a boardgame is automatically transferred away. No matter what you do or how you feel about it, the entire thing boils down to "it wasn't really my fault and she wouldn't have been raped if she hadn't been there". I didn't give the game a complete read through because gently caress that. The set up is to much and the where it's all going is just down the shitter anyways. Though I got more of a "it wasn't really my fault and she wouldn't have been raped if I hadn't been there" vibe. But trying to read into it pointless because quote:We don't design games to make a moral point or push an agenda. We don't design games to offend you or your sociology professor or your congressman. We do it because we believe there is fun to be had in exploring tragedy and depravity with your friends in the safety of your kitchen, den or mother's basement.  I love my copies of both Violence and Powerkill, because I highly doubt Designer X or the other guy wrote them because it's fun to roleplay horrific things. Even when I found them a decade (Or more?) ago, still young and immature I never sat down and serious said "Let's play Violence. Seems like a fun time." They are eye opening products designed to be a look at how much of a sociopath the average RPG character is (Or perhaps player in the case of Powerkill). Edit: While I doubt I will ever see Up Front in my hands, I will keep my money in there until the bitter end because I desperate want that product 
The General fucked around with this message at 09:25 on Aug 6, 2013 |
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Aug 6, 2013 09:22
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Up Front is still posting rules proofs and new artwork, which presumably they paid for since it's all custom work. Kickstarters actually hitting their initial deadline is pretty rare, and they appear to be continuing to spend their own money to finish the project. So... not really panic time yet.
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Aug 6, 2013 09:27
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Violence! is Greg Costikyan, Powerkill is John Tynes, and New Style was the best thing.
Pope Guilty fucked around with this message at 09:35 on Aug 6, 2013 |
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Aug 6, 2013 09:32
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I know who Designer X is, but I wasn't sure who did Powerkill off the top of my head. I really need to get my hands on a copy of Pantheon to complete the New Style collection. Why do I not own Pantheon? 
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Aug 6, 2013 09:38
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Remora posted:Up Front is still posting rules proofs and new artwork, which presumably they paid for since it's all custom work. Kickstarters actually hitting their initial deadline is pretty rare, and they appear to be continuing to spend their own money to finish the project. So... not really panic time yet. AFAIK the kickstarter funds have been frozen by a Texan court for months pending a judgement on whether Valley Games, which owes some guy 400 grand, is the same company as Radiant Games, which conveniently has ~400 grand in kickstarter money and is composed of all the same dudes. I'll think about Up Front again if I see it on the shelves, but I don't give it better than even odds of ever getting there.
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Aug 6, 2013 09:59
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Lemon Curdistan posted:No, instead they're coming and making GBS threads into the collective pool that we all play in (the tradgames industry), and for some reason you expect everyone to be okay with that because these guys are taking a poo poo in the other corner right this moment. Well, again, they have every right to make a game about whatever subject matter they choose. And consumers have every right to buy or not buy it. Having read through The Oldest Cruelest Sword, I'm questioning my own pledge myself. Nobody is being forced to back this project, and nobody is being forced to play the game against their will. It exists, it has every right to exist, and people who want nothing to do with it have every right to ignore its existence.
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Aug 6, 2013 11:37
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I'm not as worried about UpFront! as you guys, but I'm also not in it for as much. There have been some setbacks, but there have also been a lot of updates and significant progress - I just hope Texas doesn't gently caress this.jivjov posted:It exists, it has every right to exist, and people who want nothing to do with it have every right to ignore its existence. This is a really cute and dangerous sentiment. Do people just not remember the 80's Satanic Panic? Because as much as I'd hate to see swordrape become the new face of tabletop gaming, it's a Fox News Alert away from undoing 20 years of mainstreaming the hobby. FW:FW:FW:THIS IS WHAT YOURE GRANDCHILDREN DO ROLLPLAYING
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Aug 6, 2013 12:28
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moths posted:I'm not as worried about UpFront! as you guys, but I'm also not in it for as much. There have been some setbacks, but there have also been a lot of updates and significant progress - I just hope Texas doesn't gently caress this. With respect, I think we're in a very different position to the 80s in terms of cultural awareness of geeky pastimes. People are far more likely to play, or know people who play, games and board games and rpgs, and the Satanic panic of the 80s wasn't just spurred by a monster manual but had its roots in the evangelical church's artificial fear of satanism, something we don't have a comparable analogue for today. Not to say this kickstarter isn't awful, but I'd say they're worth deriding because we don't want the hobby to be a lovely place, not because we're scared of what the media will say about us.
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Aug 6, 2013 12:35
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I'm more concerned about the real effect it would have on prospective players. Part of why things are better now is that games have moved out of mom's basement. Gamer is becoming less synonymous with maladjusted nerd. Crap like this puts a black eye on the industry and drives away people who might otherwise make it a better place.
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Aug 6, 2013 12:42
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Paper Mac posted:I'm really surprised by how easy it was to get my money back on that and I'm wondering why there's been so much hand-wringing over the risks of KS if all it takes is a card chargeback. Does anyone know how this works? Does Amazon Payments now go back and try to recoup the losses from the merchant? Flavivirus posted:With respect, I think we're in a very different position to the 80s in terms of cultural awareness of geeky pastimes. People are far more likely to play, or know people who play, games and board games and rpgs, and the Satanic panic of the 80s wasn't just spurred by a monster manual but had its roots in the evangelical church's artificial fear of satanism, something we don't have a comparable analogue for today. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelle_Remembers MadScientistWorking fucked around with this message at 13:01 on Aug 6, 2013 |
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Aug 6, 2013 12:46
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Rulebook Heavily posted:One of the absolute most difficult and problematic aspects of writing satire is that good satire can get too close to what it's satirizing. Rather than poking fun, it becomes just another example of what it's trying to satirize. Bad satire just wallows in it. Also, you should examine your life choices if you're backing this.
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Aug 6, 2013 12:54
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Moving across here as suggested by Winson.jivjov posted:I mean, the vast majority of tabletop RPGs focus on theft (if you want to define dungeon plundering as such) and murder. Atrocious acts are nothing new to tabletop gaming. This simply isn't true. If they are coming at you with sword in hand and they drew first it isn't murder. Killing, yes. But not murder. (If they are walking down the street with pockets full of skittles and iced tea it still isn't murder... but that is for another thread). Killing, yes. Murder is a legal term - and when two armed sides join battle with weapons in hand, both having set out for a confrontation there are a lot of things you can call it. As for the vast majorities of tabletop RPGs focussing on dungeon plundering, I count oD&D, B/X D&D, 1e AD&D, Dungeon Crawl Classics, Dungeon World, Torchbearer, 1e Gamma World, and a few OSR games. And that's about it. 2e certainly doesn't. 3e gave up in short order. 4e the most loathed modules are the ones where they tried (like Keep on the Shadowfell and Pyramid of Shadows). White Wolf games don't. The very early tabletop RPGs might have been about looting dungeons. But we haven't been there since the 1980s. jivjov posted:Look at something like Caracosa; it has descriptions of rituals that involve rape and human sacrifice, but its presented as "guys, this is seriously bad poo poo" rather than "check out this cool poo poo you can do". From what little I remember of Caracosa (before I decided that it was not a book to be put down lightly - it was one to be flung away with great force) Caracosa's disapproval is presented in the manner of the anti-gay preacher whose descriptions are ... graphic, detailed, and intense. And Caracosa then gives you the option to play as a PC spellcaster, using all that stuff. Now please stop drawing false equivalencies to defend the Storygame equivalent of FATAL.
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Aug 6, 2013 13:35
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jivjov posted:It exists, it has every right to exist, and people who want nothing to do with it have every right to ignore its existence. And those of us who are sick of rape culture have every right to call it out for what it is at every turn and make sure that anyone who exercises their right to support it feel like the sociopathic assholes they are.
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Aug 6, 2013 14:32
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jivjov posted:It exists, it has every right to exist, and people who want nothing to do with it have every right to ignore its existence. And people who want to actively speak out against it also have every right to do so. That's how it works. If you say something, others are allowed to say something in return, and that is allowed to be "you said a bad thing."
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Aug 6, 2013 14:46
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The answer to speech you don't like is more speech, not 'If you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all.'
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Aug 6, 2013 14:50
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Peas and Rice posted:And those of us who are sick of rape culture have every right to call it out for what it is at every turn and make sure that anyone who exercises their right to support it feel like the sociopathic assholes they are. Although, Peas and Rice, when you are publicly denouncing these people you do want to make sure you're doing that in a way that doesn't alienate observers. As long as you stick to the facts and refrain from actually trying to harm the assholes, you're on safe ground. Straying from truth into exaggeration makes you (and by association feminists in aggregate) look like you don't know what you're talking about. Trying to get a dude fired or ruin his career is more upsetting than merely being wrong and offensive on the internet to people (like me) who think that internet arguments aren't worth the paper they are written on. Using gendered slurs or other sexist language undermines the very notion of your feminism. Note that I'm not saying you've done any of those things! I am saying that I've seen them done. I have seen feminists do more harm to feminism than some guy who likes to read about rape. Don't do that. For my part, I think that people can have whatever creepy sword-rape fantasy fetishes they want, and they can buy whatever creepy jerkoff material they want. I think that it's unbelievable that anybody would think that a game about sword-rape is an appropriate thing to bring out at a social gathering. Even admitting that you own such a thing would be offensive, let alone asking others to join in. neonchameleon posted:This simply isn't true. If they are coming at you with sword in hand and they drew first it isn't murder. Killing, yes. But not murder. (If they are walking down the street with pockets full of skittles and iced tea it still isn't murder... but that is for another thread). Killing, yes. Murder is a legal term - and when two armed sides join battle with weapons in hand, both having set out for a confrontation there are a lot of things you can call it. Some people honestly want to explore issues and trauma and experience strong negative emotions while gaming, and while I don't, I think it's cool that they do. But I don't think this sword-rape thing is for them. It's not a serious examination of rape and its effects. It just looks lovely.
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Aug 6, 2013 15:27
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It is probably relevant that "misery tourism" is an RPGsite catchphrase used to denounce games like Steal Away Jordan or Sorcerer. Also: tone arguments aren't especially convincing. We shouldn't need to be polite and considerate of people who think it is totally awesome to play at rape an reinforce the stupid, juvenile, sexist clubhouse that is so much of this hobby.
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Aug 6, 2013 15:33
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Mors Rattus posted:It is probably relevant that "misery tourism" is an RPGsite catchphrase used to denounce games like Steal Away Jordan or Sorcerer. Who said anything about being polite and considerate of them? I'm just saying not to throw away your feminism or your sense of proportion in your rush to denounce them. You have to make moral judgements about what you are saying and how vociferously you say it. Look, false accusations of rape happen. They are a bad thing. When they happen, you may denounce the person making the false accusations. But when you do so, by bringing attention to that side of the issue, you are contributing to rape culture and to the silencing of real victims who fear that they will not be believed. So you must make a moral judgement about how strongly and publicly to denounce the wrong action. Similarly here, while sexism is bad, if you go overboard in denouncing it and stray from the facts it will make you and feminists in general look like the stereotypical feminist with more mouth than brains - that stereotype hurts feminism. It hurts me as a feminist when other feminists make feminism look like a fortress of nonsense. This is not a tone argument. Stick to the facts when denouncing assholes. Jimbozig fucked around with this message at 15:54 on Aug 6, 2013 |
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Aug 6, 2013 15:52
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Jimbozig posted:Rape is even more fun-killing... you can expect people to sympathize with the victim in all cases Would that this were true. Many people will sympathise with the victim. A depressing number will call her (or much more rarely him) a liar. And the Steubenville victim received death threats. (By teenage girls as it happens). quote:Some people honestly want to explore issues and trauma and experience strong negative emotions while gaming, and while I don't, I think it's cool that they do. But I don't think this sword-rape thing is for them. It's not a serious examination of rape and its effects. It just looks lovely. Indeed. This isn't understanding the weaker side as in Steal Away Jordan or even trying to explain wtf was going on as in Dog Eat Dog. What it appears to be is cheerleading for the rapists. I wasn't joking when I called it the FATAL of storygames. I doubt that the mechanics are as lovely as FATAL's. I doubt it was put together by a bunch of sperglords who would come up with stats of 4d100/2-1 (or whatever it was). But it's exactly the same utterly evil centre of being rapist cheerleaders, just with fewer poo poo sculptures piled on top.
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Aug 6, 2013 16:21
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I would helpfully direct arguments about how to be a feminist correctly to the Fem thread in E/N where they go. This is not a suggestion. I am sorry if people are doing it incorrectly jimbo, perhaps you could go tell them how there.
Winson_Paine fucked around with this message at 16:34 on Aug 6, 2013 |
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Aug 6, 2013 16:22
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I would like to suggest a course of action for anyone who thinks playing rape is a good thing, it is "gently caress off forever"
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Aug 6, 2013 16:35
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Captain Foo posted:I would like to suggest a course of action for anyone who thinks playing rape is a good thing, it is "gently caress off forever" Depends what you mean by playing. Consenting adults with a kink can do whatever they want as far as I'm concerned as long as it's safe, sane, and consensual, and real people do have rape fetishes. On the other hand I wasn't aware that that kickstarter was marketed as fetish porn or that kickstarter would accept fetish porn. Which moves it right out of the consensual territory and into Whizzard territory. At that point I agree that it can gently caress off forever.
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Aug 6, 2013 16:53
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neonchameleon posted:Depends what you mean by playing. Consenting adults with a kink can do whatever they want as far as I'm concerned as long as it's safe, sane, and consensual, and real people do have rape fetishes. This is not what I was talking about
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Aug 6, 2013 18:01
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Clearly, the rational response is to write a D&D adventure where you go around killing a bunch of rape-justifying goblins and orcs who like awful games, led by the lich Ditpun and a huge troll named Frank.
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Aug 6, 2013 18:17
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Gau posted:Clearly, the rational response is to write a D&D adventure where you go around killing a bunch of rape-justifying goblins and orcs who like awful games, led by the lich Ditpun and a huge troll named Frank. Half-troll.
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Aug 6, 2013 18:30
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Mors Rattus posted:It is probably relevant that "misery tourism" is an RPGsite catchphrase used to denounce games like Steal Away Jordan or Sorcerer.
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Aug 6, 2013 19:27
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jivjov posted:Look at something like Caracosa; it has descriptions of rituals that involve rape and human sacrifice, but its presented as "guys, this is seriously bad poo poo" rather than "check out this cool poo poo you can do". Carcosa's rituals have onerous requirements, to the point that most of them could be the seed of an entire campaign. (One ritual requires two components, each of which can only be found in a particular hex, the corpse of a particular monster, and murdering a woman of a particular race who is fertile and a mother.) All of them (except banishing spells) require murder or torture. Some attention should be paid to the demographics, too. There are five rituals which require rape. All of them specify a female victim, and four of them specify a female child. None of the rituals call for sexual violence against men. The rituals often specify virgin or non-virgin female victims; this is rarely the case with male victims. Carcosa devotes 33 of its 275 pages to sorcerous rituals. If the PCs aren't meant to use them, that's more than a tenth of the pagecount devoted to "adventure seeds about a villain trying to cast a spell." For comparison, Carcosa devotes about 15 pages to its intro adventure, 6 pages to encounter tables, and 4 pages to summing up what all human cultures are like. It doesn't try to explain why ancient alien gods want beautiful female virgins. Carcosa's authorial voice is rather clinical, in fact, and doesn't describe the violence as good or bad, but it's clear that McKinney wanted to write about lurid sexual violence and veil it under the defense that he's just writing in the manner of good old-fashioned sword-and-sorcery, with wizards menacing scantily-clad maidens. It's noxious and vile. I don't normally invoke moralistic vocabulary, but Carcosa reveals the frankly unhealthy and pernicious attitudes of its creator. Mors Rattus posted:It is probably relevant that "misery tourism" is an RPGsite catchphrase used to denounce games like Steal Away Jordan or Sorcerer.
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Aug 6, 2013 22:40
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I don't really care to continue a discussion here, as its not worth a probation or ban if I say something the moderators interpret badly. If you would like to continue a discussion on the topic (Preferably without dragging personal insults into the mix) could we please do it via PM? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 6, 2013 22:43
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jivjov posted:I don't really care to continue a discussion here, as its not worth a probation or ban if I say something the moderators interpret badly. If you would like to continue a discussion on the topic (Preferably without dragging personal insults into the mix) could be please do it via PM? No. But do go on.
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Aug 6, 2013 22:46
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jivjov posted:I don't really care to continue a discussion here, as its not worth a probation or ban if I say something the moderators interpret badly. If you would like to continue a discussion on the topic (Preferably without dragging personal insults into the mix) could we please do it via PM? Your posts make me sad.
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Aug 6, 2013 23:13
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jivjov posted:I don't really care to continue a discussion here, as its not worth a probation or ban if I say something the moderators interpret badly. If you would like to continue a discussion on the topic (Preferably without dragging personal insults into the mix) could we please do it via PM? If you're worried your position might get you probated or banned (as opposed to your posting style) then perhaps your position is loving terrible
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Aug 6, 2013 23:17
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jivjov posted:I don't really care to continue a discussion here, as its not worth a probation or ban if I say something the moderators interpret badly. If you would like to continue a discussion on the topic (Preferably without dragging personal insults into the mix) could we please do it via PM? Does anyone know if the sword rape kickstarter uses backerkit? I AM THE MOON fucked around with this message at 23:26 on Aug 6, 2013 |
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Aug 6, 2013 23:21
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I AM THE MOON posted:Does anyone know if the sword rape kickstarter uses backerkit? I know that it uses a sword. To rape people. Beyond that, I couldn't give a cold drop of leper's jism what it uses. Why do you ask?
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Aug 6, 2013 23:55
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Jedit posted:I know that it uses a sword. To rape people. Beyond that, I couldn't give a cold drop of leper's jism what it uses. Why do you ask? read jivjov's posting history
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Aug 6, 2013 23:57
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Jedit posted:I know that it uses a sword. To rape people. Beyond that, I couldn't give a cold drop of leper's jism what it uses. Why do you ask? I previously expressed my displeasure with project creators choosing to make their projects too complex for Kickstarter's own tools to handle and instead make their backers jump through hoops and use mandatory external pledge managing tools.
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Aug 6, 2013 23:57
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