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I don't have any issue with parody or satire, and I don't think it's going to ruin Kickstarter for everyone. It's just dumb and not that funny. It's also trying to be clever and make a point but it didn't really do that either. Dumb all around, will have no lasting effect, too bad it wasn't funnier.Winson_Paine posted:I don't know if I feel better or worse about this than I do about White Wolf using KS I'm not a hundred on where I stand with White Wolf using Kickstarter as their primary means of funding, but it makes me a little sad that a former number one company is in that position.
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Apr 1, 2013 21:58
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No, it's absolutely a good move for them - but it is also kind of weird for me to see the company that made every game I played back in high school, the company that temporarily dethroned Dungeons and Dragons, operating primarily as a Kickstarter publisher. That's before you even get into the weirdness with CCP and Onyx Path and everything else. It seems to be working for them and that's cool but I'm not a hundred on how to react to it.
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Apr 1, 2013 22:04
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Countblanc posted:e: I admit that I don't know a ton regarding RPGs and mostly stick to board games, so if someone wants to discuss that feel free! RPGs have the exact same issue - there are few to no credible reviewers, there's no established language to use as a foundation and there's a lot of pushback against forming any kind of critical theory. The prevailing discourse is that game design is subjective and so it's not worth discussing. A lot of that's even aimed at the design angle, there are some vocal folks who insist designers shouldn't think about what they're doing and just make a fun game I mean it can't be that hard right? I have no idea how to fix this other than getting real loud about game design and yelling at people, and that doesn't work very well.
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Apr 2, 2013 21:03
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Leperflesh posted:Ultimately, though, a critic or reviewer always relies on subjective opinion. There are famous reviewers and critics and they all have their loyal followers and their vocal critics. Roger Ebert knows more about film than I ever will, and he's one of the most respected film critics alive, but that doesn't mean I'll always love his reviews and there have been movies he hated that I loved (and vice-versa). The thing is, there's an established foundation of language and discussion and discourse available for film and literature. We're never going to have an Ebert (much less a Scorsese or Coppola on the design side) when we can't even get people to recognize the need for something beyond make game fun have pretty pictures. We're not even at the point where we can have someone decent to disagree with. Leperflesh posted:Board games tend to be less flexible, but even then, each run-through of Agricola is going to be different. It's easy to imagine a reviewer disliking it because he didn't understand all the rules, or because one player figured out you need to prioritize adding family members and he didn't see that (and still hasn't recognized that as an optimal strategy) and so he thinks he played well but lost anyway. This is the issue really, not that RPGs are built to be customized. We've got reviewers and critics who don't understand the products they're reviewing or the design that went into them. A good critic should be able to look at Agricola and realize the optimal strategies, or look at 3.5 and realize how hosed everything is for non-casters, or at Magicians and how the mechanics reflect actual language learning practices. Leperflesh posted:Ultimately, though, a critic or reviewer always relies on subjective opinion. There's a lot more that goes into it than just subjective opinion. I think that really does talented critics a disservice.
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Apr 2, 2013 21:32
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Leperflesh posted:I don't think a lot of what's wrong with a given game is immediately discernable, even to an expert. Often an issue with (say) a character class stems from a single ability which seems OK on the surface, but turns out to be overpowered or overbroad or simply ungainly during play. Sometimes there are conflicts in a game's balance which don't reveal themselves until high level, or until you try to play a certain type of encounter, and so forth. Some of this is immediately obvious, and it still gets overlooked. I wouldn't consider myself an expert and even I can notice this stuff. quote:And time commitment is a key thing here. You can watch a long film, watch it again and take notes, and you've got a reasonable basis to write a good article about it but have only committed maybe 6 hours so far. But it's going to take longer than that just to read the core books once through for a typical RPG, and if you wrote a review for an RPG without actually trying to play a few sessions, I think it'd be reasonable to dismiss your review completely. I agree with this, but don't have much to say other than anyone who wants to be a decent RPG critic can deal with it and put in the work. Of course I don't think that effort is really worth it until we have more well-designed games that deserve that kind of attention. Leperflesh posted:e. I should add that I'm basically agreeing with everything you said, just with maybe some caveats. Yeah I don't know that I really disagree here, RPG criticism sucks. I think part of the reason is that generally RPGs and RPG designers and the RPG fanbase aren't all that great. We need a stronger, better foundation for everyone to work from and there really isn't an individual or group in the RPG industry capable of that right now I think.
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Apr 2, 2013 22:05
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Leperflesh posted:What if you broke the mold a little and released add-ons that have something to appeal to everyone in the game? Is that viable? Like, a book which contains new items, new character options, new enemies, new settings, new a-bunch-of-stuff. Your game can be sold as some core books plus a series of add-ons which most players and GMs would maybe want to grab. This is what White Wolf does, it seems to work well enough. Warhammer Fantasy 3e's adventures included new player options. Indie games tend to do this. The multiple core books plus enemy book is really more of a D&D thing and I'd argue outside of D&D and Derivatives we've already seen a move to this model. Lemon Curdistan posted:I can't speak for anything except the Funhaver sales, but the DW classes have consistently sold well whereas the GM stuff hasn't sold at all. To put some numbers to it: The best selling Dungeon World GM thing I've done sold 50 copies since January. The best selling Dungeon World player thing I've done sold 60 copies in January. Mikan fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Apr 24, 2013 |
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Apr 24, 2013 18:50
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That's a good industry move too. If someone is being unreasonable about a situation, it is best to give them a refund and let them know politely you are done dealing with them. They get their money back, it's better than engaging in a long, drawn-out argument and you can move on to do something more productive with your time. One of the most common mistakes in this industry is giving too much time and attention to people who are being unreasonable. Reporting a project to Kickstarter and accusing the creator of fraud because you're uninformed, and then escalating it, I'd be refunding the money too. edit: for people confused, the conversation began in the announcements thread. Context might help.
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Jul 1, 2013 07:52
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I would think your criticism was ridiculous and without merit even if you were leveling it at Ouya: The RPG, created by a dream team of Mike Nystul and James Malizewski, run as a flexible funding Indiegogo campaign. Has nothing to do with Evil Hat.
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Jul 1, 2013 08:01
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Yep. Next Kickstarter (if I do one - I'm lucky enough to be in a situation where I can finance my next three or four books) will almost certainly use a fulfillment service. I'm still shipping books, they're still taking up a ton of space, and a few jerks got two copies thanks to an outdated shipping list.
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Jul 2, 2013 05:22
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Cheap Trick posted:And I have zero copies You have to fly out to Zereth and get the copy I sent him. It's part of my new fulfillment process. Seriously though, posts like that are why you should use a fulfillment service. I'm still struggling to get all the books and cards out to folks, and the box sets are only just now about to ship.
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Jul 3, 2013 20:55
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(It's okay Mikan, you are a cool dude)
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I have no idea what caused it and it took almost every RPG designer I've spoken with by surprise. A lot of folks who ran Kickstarters around June-August of last year were charging $5 or so extra for international shipping, and are now paying out 25-45. It's all couriers, not just USPS. I'm actually losing money now for a number of backers and I know I'm not alone in that. I wouldn't be surprised to see more kickstarters straight up not offering international shipping options.
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Jul 11, 2013 06:17
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jivjov posted:Moving a discussion over from the Crowdfunding Megathread: I'm only addressing this now because for the first time in three days I didn't wake up to abuse and harassment about the decision. (Granted I also can't believe I have to defend the decision not to be involved with the Misery Index but this is the RPG industry, so.) Otherwise I would ignore this like I have a lot of the other questions. I don't think Jonathan Walton is a bad guy. I think he's making a poor choice here, but that's his choice to make. Whatever. That said, he's still professionally involved with a project I want nothing to do with. He's still actively involved in the process to make something I think is entirely without merit. That's not an association I want. Not for Inverse World, not for my company, and most emphatically not for myself. The actions I take as a company are no different from the actions I take as an individual, and anything I do as part of Funhaver Games is a direct reflection on me as a person. I make every RPG business decision from that standpoint. I only do things I'd be comfortable attaching my identity to. jivjov posted:The statement I kept seeing was just "We don't want Misery Index associated with Inverse World", which is all well and good and the prerogative of the Inverse World guys, but the person who's stretch goal got rejiggered around isn't an author on Misery Index, just a layout guy. The content in Misery Index that people are objecting to wasn't created by the layout guy. Do you not understand the concept of association? He's supporting an effort to make the book physically exist. Good for him, I can't stop him from doing it - but I don't want to be a part of it, even tangentially. jivjov posted:Yes I do. But it also stands to reason that anyone who's going to be looking closely enough to see "Oh hey, the author of this stretch goal document is the same guy as the layout guy on Misery Index" will be cognizant enough to realize that the layout guy is not responsible for the content of Misery Index. This has nothing to do with what other people think. I don't make decisions based on public perception. I wanted to end the association because I think the Misery Index is a juvenile, lazy attempt to address real-world reprehensible situations by a couple of folks who are so busy acting enlightened for "starting a discussion" they forgot to actually make a point or create something worth addressing or consider the feelings of people affected by these things, and because I'm not comfortable with being personally associated with it. Even if it's "just" a layout guy. I know it's a small step and there are other injustices in the world and blah blah blah but I can only work with the tools I have and what's available to me.
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Aug 9, 2013 21:46
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Winson_Paine posted:I ain't paying, after all. What the hell, you didn't you back Inverse World?
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Aug 9, 2013 22:45
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We'll have it up for sale in October, but if anyone would like to get one of the backer tiers (like the personalized levels) or just wants to preorder we're taking those via paypal (funhavergames@gmail.com). The first pdf is going to go out soon, so preorders will get that as soon as they're released. Make sure to note what the paypal payment is for and make sure the address (for physical products) is the address you'll be located in for the month of October.
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Aug 9, 2013 22:54
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I have pretty strict standards for who I like to work with, and if anything I am involved with too many projects and partnerships right now. I have a huge pool of artists, layout folks, writers and all kinds of other RPG professions to consult.
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Aug 9, 2013 23:10
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Laying out a book is still an active part in creating a product. I'm not sure why this is so hard to understand.
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Aug 9, 2013 23:15
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Countblanc posted:Did Maid's development team want to be "taken seriously" in the way that Misery Tourism's do? I was under the impression it was just a silly little anime game, not a troll/"satire" of power dynamics present in romantic and economic environments between people who hold power over one another. Maid is just a goofy anime game, yeah. It's not a juvenile "look at how enlightened we are" kind of thing like the Misery Index and I don't think it belongs in the same category. Ewen can probably speak better to that though.
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Aug 9, 2013 23:37
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It's been a long, long time since I read kill puppies for satan but I mostly remember it being dumb and trying way too hard.
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Aug 10, 2013 02:18
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Even as a creator, I'm getting tired of the exclusives and the 30 day backing window and everything else. My next kickstarter is going to be for art and layout budget only. No physical books, no shipping, no huge stretch goals, nothing fancy. Backers will get the pdf and whatever other digital things their backer tier receives, and all backers will have a code to order the physical book on DrivethruRPG/Amazon/wherever minus the cost of the pdf. The full rules of the game will be available once you back it, the only thing that won't already be finished is the art and layout and things I need money for. I won't need to bother with fulfillment, backers won't have to wait on me for their books. A Kickstarter like that will probably never receive crazy amounts like the board game and minis Kickstarters, but it's much less of a hassle for every person involved.
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Aug 15, 2013 23:37
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I have definitely had that experience with artists. I don't know if it's true with sculptors but oh my it's true with a lot of RPG artists. It's why I increasingly look outside the RPG community for new artists or stick to the ones I usually work with.
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Aug 16, 2013 06:19
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"Lore" is the dumbest reason not to do something. Partly because game settings are generally derivative and not that great so it's not like you're really harming anything, but also because it's the most mutable thing in the world. As a creator, you have complete freedom to change the details of the setting. The only reason misogyny or racism or other objectionable elements exist in a game is because someone put them in there, not because they are pulling from some immutable reality. The only thing keeping games from being better about these things is because the creators choose not to do anything about it. You can go on about the sanctity of the setting or the playerbase or the finances or whatever else but those are all just excuses.
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Sep 16, 2013 22:50
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Hey, who wants to hear about some money stuff? I experimented with DrivethruRPG's new Pay What You Want feature for a few months. Customers can purchase the content for any price, or even download it for free and pay what they'd like later. All of the Dungeon World content, the small games I've written, they went to the PWYW model. It is the absolute worst thing. I'd wake up every morning with 60+ "sales" notification emails letting me know a bunch of people chose not to pay anything for the project. Over the course of the PWYW experiment, three people chose to download something and then return later to pay for it. Profits from those products were 1/2 or worse of what they had been before the PWYW change. PWYW sucks, don't do it. edit: the supposed benefit of the PWYW model, increased quantity of sales, has been useless too. It's not resulted in more people talking about the games, it hasn't given me any extra exposure and I haven't had a single person tell me about their experience playing the games. Nobody leaves reviews. It's terrible all around. Mikan fucked around with this message at 00:45 on Sep 17, 2013 |
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Sep 17, 2013 00:42
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I don't think the PWYW model is flawed necessarily; Ewen posted a good example of it working (quoted since it's on the previous page)Ewen Cluney posted:Letting people anonymously get free downloads from RPGNow/DTRPG seems to be about the worst way to do it. Ben has switched to using Gumroad.com, but for a while his setup was for people to email or PayPal him directly, and I bet a lot fewer people are willing to actually compose an email to a game designer saying they'd like to get his stuff for free. He also phrased it in terms of what each amount of money would accomplish; but it's absolutely useless on DrivethruRPG. I'd recommend something like patreon as a good supplement for folks who want to release small or free games. I've had excellent experiences there. I'm no Joe Mcdaldno pulling in $413 a project but I do OK. Mr. Maltose posted:I don't know if the industry is big enough to support the kind of word of mouth to recoup costs with games, even games as cool as your Council games. This makes me super happy to hear. I never hear anything about the Council games and they're not getting much attention, so I'm glad someone else appreciates them. I was afraid I was just writing them for myself at this point.
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Sep 17, 2013 08:16
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Monte Cook announced what is probably the worst license terms I've seen in a long time. Pay Monte Cook $50 and you too can make a Numenera product, but you can't crowdfund it or make more than $2000 in sales.
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Oct 8, 2013 18:59
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My favorite part is where if you have an unexpected success, all of a sudden the license doesn't apply to you anymore and you have to renegotiate with the Numenera folks. What happens during the negotiations? Do you have to take your product down? Do you owe them even more money, which they conveniently don't detail in the license? It's amazing.
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Oct 8, 2013 19:13
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The Numenera folks reached out to me since I made fun of it on twitter, so if I get any useful clarifications I'll pass them on. edit: apparently you can make free content without paying them but you can't put it on DrivethruRPG to host it, but you can if you give them $50.
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Oct 8, 2013 19:46
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That "this is a hobby and you should do it for the love of the game" bullshit is toxic and awful. Folks deserve to get paid for their work, and if people feel it's worth shelling out money then awesome.
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Oct 8, 2013 19:59
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jivjov posted:Well, there's a difference between "Here's a 50 page setting guide" and "here's a front-and-back character sheet I slapped together in Word '98" Then don't buy it. That still has nothing to do with this nonsense about the monetization of the hobby. Bieeardo posted:Only the passionate seem to bother reviewing, so that doesn't help matters much either. This is a big issue. It's difficult to get products out there as a publisher or find products as a consumer for any number of reasons.
The only real avenue you have if you're not White Wolf or WotC is DrivethruRPG and relentless self-promotion, which sucks for both publisher and customer.
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Oct 8, 2013 20:28
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Fenarisk posted:Scores of student films, music, and others have shaped the world we are in today by being free. More free RPG stuff is available than ever, this is some dumb bullshit
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Oct 8, 2013 20:55
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Pumpkin_Paine posted:Honestly there is probably some cash to be made doing some quick $5 PDF supplements for DTRPG using the licence, I bet there is enough reactionary pro-Cook sentiment that you could make some decent cash on the quick even with the $50 fee. The main reason I want to recommend against this is if you happen to make $2000 off this*, even if that's unlikely, all of a sudden your current agreement no longer applies. You're now on the hook for a new agreement and you have no idea what it is. Your options are either to stop selling a surprisingly successful product or be at the mercy of Monte Cook Games, hoping they give you a good deal. I don't think Monte Cook Games is necessarily predatory in this instance, but you should never enter into an arrangement where the other side can just change the details like that. *note that this is $2000 before accounting for any expenditures and any hosting costs. You have also have to account for the cost of the license. DrivethruRPG requires 35% of the profits if you're not exclusive, so if you sell exclusively pdf you're only going to make $1250 at most. If you sell physical copies of something, you're looking at losing between $3 and $5 from that $1950 for each sale before taking into account DrivethruRPG's cut. This also assumes you don't hire anyone to create art, you write the entire thing and handle all of the layout yourself, and you also spend your time publicizing the game instead of working on something with no sales ceiling.
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Oct 10, 2013 16:28
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homullus posted:At the risk of pointing out the obvious, how would he even know whether you made $2000? And doesn't the license agreement just say "you know what you have to do, it's the thing to do"? If your Numenera thing really is flying off the shelves and you're really getting close to that kind of money, you probably SHOULD contact him, to get more cross-promotion or (maybe even) some help/work from Monte later. They reserve the right to ask you for sales figures and numbers at any time. It's listed on the page.
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Oct 10, 2013 17:17
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He's stated Far West will be out tomorrow or this weekend, so we'll get to see if it misses another deadline.
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Nov 22, 2013 05:53
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I think people have a moral obligation to publicly report these things, and we're seeing a shift to more open information as we see more indie authors and people less tied to traditional publishing houses. Keeping these things secret only hurts people looking to enter into the industry - RPG authors are gossipy, catty people, and anyone who's even kind of in the loop knows about this stuff. Nobody wants to be the one who goes public with these things but it leaves predatory publishers and awful people open to take advantage of new talent entering the industry, while the existing authors nod their heads and pretend to be shocked if it's ever revealed.
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Nov 28, 2013 04:19
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FMguru posted:The same is true about editors who hire freelancers - if there are multiple people up for an assignment, do you really want to give it to a guy who will start blogging doom and gloom about your company if his check is a day late? I don't think a hypothetical about some unreasonable Strawman Freelancer whining about a slightly delayed check really helps here, because that's not what the scenario is about at all.
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Nov 28, 2013 18:56
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It will surprise no one to learn GMS is furious about Fred Hicks' latest essay and is ranting about wannabes in the RPG industry, despite missing another Far West delivery date. I've been out of the freelancing game for 10+ years and am only now potentially stepping back in to work with Onyx Path, so I don't have a whole lot to say about who currently pays well and who does not.
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Dec 1, 2013 02:19
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JackMann posted:Out of curiosity, where's he venting his spleen? I don't see anything in his Google+ feed. Twitter was where I saw it, I missed everything on G+.
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Dec 1, 2013 08:24
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