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I don't care to quote every relevant post, but one thing to keep in mind is that Kickstarter makes it abundantly clear, on everything from their terms of service all the way to the big green button you click to initiate payment, is that you are not "purchasing/preordering a product", you're "backing a project". Big difference there.
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Apr 15, 2013 20:21
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You don't "pay A, get B". You donate A to a project and as a reward for your pledge, get B. There's a pretty big difference there, especially legally speaking.
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Apr 19, 2013 15:22
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I'm really not sure what you want them to do. The terms and conditions clearly lay out the whole concept, and as I mentioned before, the big green button you click to make a pledge says "make a pledge" not "make a purchase". The reward tiers are called just that, "reward tiers". Not "purchaseables", not "goods for sale". About the only thing they could do more at this point is have a bigass pop up show up whenever you pledged for a product.  YOU ARE NOT PREORDERING A PRODUCT. WE ARE NOT A STORE. THE PROJECT CREATOR IS LIABLE, NOT US! and that would get annoying real quick.
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Apr 19, 2013 16:20
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Kickstarter may appear to be a store to some, some pledge rewards use tangible goods as rewards yes, but that is why the terms and conditions exist. To dispel the notion that they are a store. If people ignore them but sign up anyway, that's their problem, not Kickstarter's.
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Apr 19, 2013 19:46
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Gau posted:All of this raises the larger question, which is "why do people care so much if Kickstarter is a store or not?" I think a lot of it, based on the points of conversation thus far, hinge on consumer rights and protections. If Wal-Mart takes your money and doesn't give you stuff, you have a legal recourse to either your stuff or your money. If a Kickstarter project creator takes your money and runs, or mismanages it and the project collapses, or the shipping carrier from China sinks, etc etc, you don't have a guarantee of getting a refund. That's the nature of the model though. You're a backer, not a customer.
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Apr 19, 2013 19:53
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I think at bare minimum, if you pledge to a Kickstarter that's creating a thing, be it a board game, a documentary, a book, whatever, then that thing should be offered as a pledge reward, provided the pledge is at or above the price the item would be sold at at retail.
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Apr 20, 2013 19:42
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Fuschia tude posted:Yeah, that's explicitly stated in their FAQ and KS School. So from the ground up, KS is supporting having project creators give out physical rewards. The way some people were talking, they seemed to think KS should not have any tangible benefit to pledging at all. Just the good feelings of supporting a startup.
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Apr 21, 2013 12:17
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ravenkult posted:It's not really that different from any other Kickstarter. Evil Hat doesn't ''need'' money to publish Fate Core. Yes, because printing, binding, and shipping is free for them, apparently.
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Apr 21, 2013 17:58
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In my opinion, I like to see an "all-in-one" core book (or maybe a 2 volume set if you have a excess of material), and then have a easily scannable/printable GM cheat sheet. Doesn't have to be a full screen, just a list of "Here's the stuff that the GM needs that the players don't need to (or shouldn't) see.
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Apr 24, 2013 18:38
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I hope this is the proper Industry thread that we're supposed to relocate the BackerKit discussion to. I was just told by Fred Hicks that "keeping my pledge is not worth my loud and ongoing disappointment." I was trying to have a fair and rational discussion with the guy, and suddenly he doesn't want my money and doesn't want me to have the dice I pledged for. My respect for Evil Hat just dropped a few points. He can't handle the overwhelming negative publicity of a half-dozen comments on a single update page on Kickstarter.
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Jul 1, 2013 07:38
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I'm not letting him lock me out of the reward I pledged for. Seriously, does nobody else see the problem with this? I've been attempting to calmly explain my position and discuss the situation, and he's juts "nope, don't want to listen to complaints. Rather than attempting to work with you in any way shape or form, I'm going to attempt to sweep you under the rug"
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Jul 1, 2013 07:52
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I've never once accused Fred Hicks or Evil Hat of fraud. I said that it set of fraud-like alarm bells and that I felt it may not be keeping with Kickstarter's Terms of Service. I also did not use the "Report this Project" function, I merely used Kickstarter's Contact Us form. Is Evil Hat so above any reproach that any critisism should just be swept under the rug? As a customer of Evil Hat's (I've purchased their products at retail, I'm not just a KS backer), am I not allowed to raise a concern and attempt to discuss it? jivjov fucked around with this message at 08:20 on Jul 1, 2013 |
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Jul 1, 2013 07:58
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Well, I'm making no decisions on whether to accept a refund or not until I've heard back from Kickstarter about the issue. If Kickstarter is okay with third party utilities, I'll use it this once and more carefully screen my projects from here on. If it turns out that it is against the Kickstarter TOS, Evil Hat will have to come up with a way to make the Kickstarter survey system work for them. EDIT: Alouicious posted:When your criticism amounts to "they're using a totally legit third party site to do something better than Kickstarter already does, but I'm too stupid to realize this", yeah I think you're not allowed to raise concern. A third party site that I'd never heard of, had not been disclosed to backers until long after payment had been collected, and not officially endorsed by Kickstarter? Yes, yes I think I am. Also, please do not call me stupid. I'm not sinking to name calling, there's no reason for you to do so. jivjov fucked around with this message at 08:14 on Jul 1, 2013 |
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Jul 1, 2013 08:04
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neongrey posted:You know that even if you, personally, manage to get this Kickstarter taken to task for using an external pledge manager, there is no way to reissue surveys on Kickstarter, right? You'd either be sinking the Kickstarter or mandating that they take one thousand, seven hundred and fifty backers' slections via the woefully inadequate message system-- which is as good as sinking the Kickstarter. You're a real piece of work, you know that? I'm sure that if Kickstarter determines that Evil Hat needs to handle backer information being collected via the official survey system, they can reset something on the back-end. I know project creators can't resend or redo surveys, but surely Kickstarter themselves can do so. neongrey posted:A third party site which all of us are familiar with and have assured you is perfectly legitimate. How do you go about acquiring familiarity in the first place? Evil Hat didn't bother to disclose that this third party utility would be required at the outset of the Kickstarter campaign. At such time I could have researched Backerkit and made a decision at a more appropriate time. As it is, they waited until long after my money had been taken before informing me that I would have to make utilize said third party utility. RPZip posted:And you wondered why Fred thought you were too much of a dumb rear end in a top hat to bother dealing with. I will again request that you stop with the name calling. I've not insulted any of you, you have no reason to do so to me. Kai Tave posted:Also you think Kickstarter gives a poo poo about their TOS, that's adorable. Why would they have a Terms of Service if not to enforce it? They've investigated, frozen, and cancelled projects before.
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Jul 1, 2013 08:14
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You project an astounding level of affronted entitlement.
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Ettin posted:Not everybody likes Fate Core. Industry middleweight Gareth Michael-Skarka, for example, is a known critic of Fred Hick's strategy of revealing every business detail and being open about everything. Interesting that the complaint here is about "too much openness" when the decision to use Backerkit is buried 19 updates in to a concluded Kickstarter rather than in the initial project pitch or at least a pre-conclusion update. Alouicious posted:I'm sorry, I shouldn't have called you stupid. In light of your other posts, I should have called you a mewling child who throws a shitfit about the stupidest things in the world. Please educate yourself on the differences between "a mewling child throwing a shitfit" and "a customer attempting to calmly discuss a concern with a company's actions". I AM THE MOON posted:I am pretty sure you are the only person in the entire world who gives a gently caress That may be true, but its still a valid complaint, and I am taking steps to resolve the situation. Newfork posted:How about literally wanting to get a kickstarter canceled because you imagine fraud and conspiracy around every corner in regards to a pledge manager I'm not trying to the the Kickstarter cancelled. I'm trying to get the Kickstarter (specifically reward fulfillment in this instance) managed through Kickstarter.
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Jul 1, 2013 08:22
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Kai Tave posted:And now they're giving you your money back and you're still bitching and trying to get Kickstarter to conduct some sort of internal inquest. I don't blame Fred for wanting to wash his hands of you. Much of the conversation with Mr. Hicks (and the message sent to Kickstarter staff) was done well before he decided to "wash his hands of me". Chaotic Neutral posted:That's easy! The former is you, the latter is nothing even remotely related to your pedantic dickery in which you whine about the Kickstarter TOS, apparently expect Kickstarter to bend over backwards to get you some kind of third option when they're most likely just going to try to get you a refund (like you've already been offered), and say 'I could just make a throwaway account' but then don't in favor of digging into the sand. I'm not asking for a "third option". I'm asking for the option that's supposed to be there from the start. I pledge through Kickstarter, I provide my information through Kickstarter. Like the other 40+ projects I've backed.
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Jul 1, 2013 08:26
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Zereth posted:Too bad it's not there, and Evil Hat literally can't do the things you want through Kickstarter's built-in survey function. They were able to handle pledges for Fate Core just fine, which had something like 6 or 7 different physical books that you could get in several combinations, as well as handling pledging extra money for different shipping options. With this Kickstarter its so much simpler. "Which Dice set(s) do you want?, Group A ships out soon, Group B ships out not so soon". The Kickstarter surveys are limited, yes. Not ideal, yes. But completely broken and impossible to do anything with? Not by a long shot.
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Jul 1, 2013 08:31
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The Chairman posted:But why? You pledged through KS, and the campaign evaluated its options and opted to fulfill through KS via Backerkit. Nearly everyone who's replied to you, including people who have fulfilled pledge rewards themselves, have told you that using a third party fulfillment site is normal and often more efficient than KS's own tools. This is like the very definition of a non-issue. None of the 40+ other projects I've backed have required me to use a third party fulfillment site. Maybe my sample size is too small, but that doesn't scream "normal" to me. gnome7 posted:I'm gonna talk to Mikan about using BackerKit for Inverse World's surveys when we send those out in a couple months, thanks in advance for the heads up that that exists and how cool it is everybody. Suddenly I'm very glad I'm only in for PDFs on Inverse World. neongrey posted:It wasn't just fine, that's why they've picked an alternative for this Kickstarter. Then why wasn't that alternative made clear to backers before the Kickstarter concluded?
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Jul 1, 2013 08:35
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Y'know what, I'm just dropping this here. It's obvious that nobody here actually wants to have a civil discussion on the topic. Its all insane ad hominem all the way down. I really wanted to try to hash something out here, maybe talk about the importance of being open and up front with your backers, or perhaps organizing a campaign to convince Kickstarter to improve their survey utilities so project creators wouldn't have to risk alienating those who don't want to use third party sites. Instead I get called "mewling child", "whiny and entitled", "stupid", and "dumb rear end in a top hat" among other things. Have a good night goons. If anyone cares, I'll let you know what Kickstarter decides on the issue when they get back to me. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 1, 2013 08:45
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Just wanted to pop back in here and apologize for taking things a bit too personally the other day. I still stand by my points, but I did get too heated about it. As a capstone to the whole thing, per a Kickstarter Support rep, fulfillment options are at the discretion of project creators, and until/unless a third party survey system is used fraudulently or abused in some way, they're fine with them. Also, I will admit that Backerkit turns out to be a pretty well put together utility. Maybe Kickstarter should actually officially partner with them.
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Jul 5, 2013 16:50
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Legally speaking, I think it is defensible. Kickstarter isn't a store from a legalistic perspective (aside: Fred Hicks has a wonderful blog post "Kickstarter isn't a store but it is a market" that captures the issue really well) and so as long as the Star Wars/firefly/etc figures are only used as Kickstarter rewards, then I don't believe there's a legal leg to stand on. That said, I wouldn't be surprised that in the event of a lawsuit, that would be the approach of the prosecution "This venue is a store, they are selling copyrighted material".
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Jul 6, 2013 16:45
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Bosushi! posted:Copyright and Trademark violations are still violations regardless if they're for profit or not. I thought that was because of the wide distribution. If I sit at home and carve a perfect likeness of Darth Vader out of wood and give it to my dad as a gift, I'm pretty sure that's not copyright/trademark infringement. Kickstarter gets around it by way of "oh yes, I'm making these minis that greatly resemble the characters from Firefly and giving them as gifts to people. These people happened to pledge $X to my campaign to fund my minis line, but I did not sell or give them to the public."
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Jul 6, 2013 17:07
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Can't tell you a reason, other than perhaps rising oil prices, but to the best of my knowledge its drat near universal. Shipping anything overseas is now a big ticket affair.
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Jul 11, 2013 06:07
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A lot of kickstarters I've seen are just putting up International versions of reward tiers that are appropriately higher priced.
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Jul 11, 2013 07:42
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I really wish the management of my FLGS was more...accepting of Kickstarter. I'd really like to support my local store more, and every time I see a cool Kickstarter that has a retailer backer level, I try to convince my store to buy in, but it never seems to happen. The owner is of the (somewhat justified) opinion that Kickstarters are harming Brick and Mortar sales; people who are super interested in a game and would buy it Day One probably already saw and backed the Kickstarter. With brick and mortar gaming stores being such a niche idea these days, I can really see his point, but I'm not sure if how much of his attitude really is justified and how much is just bitterness.
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Jul 22, 2013 19:02
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I just really feel sorry for my local store sometimes...I want to support them, but sometimes its hard to make a purchase from them when I can either A) Back a kickstarter and get the game + a bunch of KS exclusive extras or B) Buy from Amazon or CoolStuff and save anywhere from 30 to 60 percent off the cover price.
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Jul 22, 2013 19:37
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I just would like to clarify that I'm not defending rape as an action. I am defending the right for game creators to make any sort of game they want, and players to play any sort of game they want. If that involves rape, that's the concern of said creators and players. I was not trying to draw a direct 1-to-1 comparison between murder and rape, I was merely making the point that traditionally RPG player characters do all manner of poo poo that wouldn't fly in the real world.
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Aug 6, 2013 04:28
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Winson_Paine posted:I think it is, at least in part (and I am gonna guess other people will articulate this better than I will), is because a lot of the other acts done in RPGs have some penumbra, somewhere, where they are acceptable. Killing a guy is acceptable sometimes if you are defending someone or if you are a soldier or whatever; if you are Jean Valjean and are starving and steal a loaf of bread and some candlesticks people will empathise. There is no like, "justifiable rape" or "acceptable standard of child sacrifice" or whatever. There is nothing gained there, it is just unpleasantness inflicted for its own sake. Murder or theft or other tricky bits in games can be interesting because there is some kind of moral range there where you can explore if something is all right or not. Unless you are Ferretball, there is never that area for rape so it gets a special spot. Hadn't really thought of it that way, that's actually a really good point.
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Aug 6, 2013 04:44
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Bieeardo posted:No. If you take a poo poo on my carpet, then make a fuss claiming that it's art, then laugh at me afterward while claiming that you were parodying what you misunderstand as avant garde art, you've still taken a poo poo on my carpet. The problem with this analogy is that in this case, the game is not being forced on you. The creators are not coming to your house, sitting you down, and making you play the game. Nobody is forcibly "taking a poo poo on your carpet".
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Aug 6, 2013 06:19
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Gau posted:Okay, fine, but they are marketing "hey, pay for lunch and we'll come poo poo on your carpet!" Fair enough, as analogies go, that's not a bad one.
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Aug 6, 2013 06:24
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Lemon Curdistan posted:No, instead they're coming and making GBS threads into the collective pool that we all play in (the tradgames industry), and for some reason you expect everyone to be okay with that because these guys are taking a poo poo in the other corner right this moment. Well, again, they have every right to make a game about whatever subject matter they choose. And consumers have every right to buy or not buy it. Having read through The Oldest Cruelest Sword, I'm questioning my own pledge myself. Nobody is being forced to back this project, and nobody is being forced to play the game against their will. It exists, it has every right to exist, and people who want nothing to do with it have every right to ignore its existence.
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Aug 6, 2013 11:37
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I don't really care to continue a discussion here, as its not worth a probation or ban if I say something the moderators interpret badly. If you would like to continue a discussion on the topic (Preferably without dragging personal insults into the mix) could we please do it via PM? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 6, 2013 22:43
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Jedit posted:I know that it uses a sword. To rape people. Beyond that, I couldn't give a cold drop of leper's jism what it uses. Why do you ask? I previously expressed my displeasure with project creators choosing to make their projects too complex for Kickstarter's own tools to handle and instead make their backers jump through hoops and use mandatory external pledge managing tools.
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Aug 6, 2013 23:57
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Verdugo posted:So just to get this straight: If you wish to drag this up and discuss it further, please PM me.
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Aug 9, 2013 01:26
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Moving a discussion over from the Crowdfunding Megathread: Why did the guy get kicked off of Inverse World when he's only doing layout (i.e. not any of the actual questionable content) for Misery Index?
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Aug 9, 2013 21:09
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moths posted:That's been answered pretty clearly in statements from both parties, too. I'm not sure what the disconnect is. The statement I kept seeing was just "We don't want Misery Index associated with Inverse World", which is all well and good and the prerogative of the Inverse World guys, but the person who's stretch goal got rejiggered around isn't an author on Misery Index, just a layout guy. The content in Misery Index that people are objecting to wasn't created by the layout guy.
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Aug 9, 2013 21:23
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Flaky Biscuit posted:Do you understand what the word "association" means? Yes I do. But it also stands to reason that anyone who's going to be looking closely enough to see "Oh hey, the author of this stretch goal document is the same guy as the layout guy on Misery Index" will be cognizant enough to realize that the layout guy is not responsible for the content of Misery Index. The association would not be made with the content of Misery Index.
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Aug 9, 2013 21:30
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A fair enough response, I was just interested in the logic behind the decision. It turns out we're approaching "association" from different viewpoints. Winson, as I said in my PM, that was my stance. I don't understand how I was "fishing for arguments" and being a "pointless devil's advocate". I had a question, I did my best to approach it in a calm manner and make my point as best as I could. The person to whom I originally wanted to pose my question weighed in and now I understand his (her? I'm not positive) side of things, so I'm perfectly content to drop the matter here.
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Aug 9, 2013 21:52
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Flaky Biscuit posted:Not sure you understand how mod challenges work, bub. Winson gave you a goal and you still haven't met it. I've never heard of a mod challenge before now, so I don't know what the accepted protocol is. I framed my point to the best of my ability, my original question to the Inverse World team was answered by them. I seriously, 100% to the best of my knowledge was not "fishing for arguments" or attempting to be a "pointless devil's advocate", and have no other way to express my stance than what I've already done. Winson_Paine posted:Nope, you posted the same nearly identical question three times running, you need to take a position on something and defend it. We don't abide cowards in TG, so no retreating! The only position I can take is that every single person on this green earth has done some manner of "bad thing". Be it stealing a candy bar, saying something rude to a cashier, or doing layout work on a questionable RPG product. Telling someone "I don't like this project you're doing layout for, so you can no longer work on Inverse World or any other project my company makes" seems harsh to me; if doing something you find objectionable is such a black mark and makes someone unfit to be a co-worker/co-collaborator/whatever, you'll quickly find yourself out of co-workers. jivjov fucked around with this message at 22:06 on Aug 9, 2013 |
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Aug 9, 2013 22:02
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Captain Foo posted:jivjov how old are you? Not sure why it matters, but I'm 23. Winson_Paine posted:I read that the first time you posted it, and the time you PMed it to me. Clock is still ticking. I edited something in at the bottom of my last post. Not sure if it meets your criteria of "taking a stance" but it's what I've got.
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Aug 9, 2013 22:06
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