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There have been a few derails in other threads over things best served in their own thread. The most recent of which is the Emperor's New Clothes KS and if it hurts the industry or not, but there have been a whole bunch of them. It has been pointed out a few times that many of the issues in the actual business of making games is that it is not treated as a business. Instead it gets to be a sort of hobby, this leads to all kinds of issues like artists and writers not expecting to get paid, infinite release schedules, an almost seeming seething contempt for any kind of post editing or layout, all kinds of poo poo. Anyway, here is your thread for hashing that poo poo out. Have at it. This is not intended to replace the "How to Not Run a Game Business" which has previously been about more practical matters until it sort of assumed the mantle this thread is intended to service but rather to take some of the heat off of that thread since there is clearly a lot of impulse to talk about some of this poo poo.
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Apr 1, 2013 21:02
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I can start.moths posted:There is a lot of entrenched backlash to Kickstarter projects. You won't find it in the Something Awful Crowdfunding Thread, but there are still a lot of people who think every project is a ripoff our that crowd funding is fostering dreaded accessibility to a niche hobby. Kickstarter is a weird territory for things, because it is a mix of brand new projects and old nostalgia projects and a whole bunch of other poo poo. So if this... I dunno, joke? Performance art? I don't even know what to call it? When it can make six grand out of nowhere, I am honestly not sure what to make of it. It baffles me he got the bids he did, so I guess it means people are really looking to throw their money away at anything? In terms of causing actual harm? Probably nothing for this one. I suspect if they became endemic the problem would fix itself, really. I don't know if I feel better or worse about this than I do about White Wolf using KS to fund reprints of old material, ferinstance. I do know I like having access to Ogre and Tunnels and Trolls and a bunch of other games that I would not get to see again in addition to seeing new stuff like Last Stand and 13th Age or whatever. I guess I am forced to take the very lame position of "gently caress that guy" while seeing nothing inherently wrong with it. The more I think about it, the less satisfied I am with this as an answer.
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Apr 1, 2013 21:29
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Lemon Curdistan posted:Aren't the White Wolf Kickstarters purely for the print and deluxe versions? Yeah, they are for print copies. I think using that to get a project up that they might take a bath on otherwise, or to do a project at a level of production they could not otherwise do (like the OGRE KS) is probably cool. It does get into the KICKSTARTER IS A STORE/NOT A STORE debate (which is nominally fine in this thread, I reckon) but I think on the whole it helps. It has had one odd side effect. When I opened the AEG Second City boxed set for the L5R RPG, one of my first, very real thoughs was I was STUNNED an RPG product of that lever was not done with a Kickstarter. I dunno what that says about me either.
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Apr 1, 2013 22:46
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dwarf74 posted:You forgot "sperglord." OK, the bad man has flounced off and is being dealt with. Continuing to belabor the point at this point is just silly. Besides, he has gone off to ask Dad and when Kickstarter vindicates him he will presumably be back in crowning glory.
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Jul 1, 2013 16:37
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For what it's worth, while I can see why there would be objections to using a third party service (especially after the fact) and those reasons could be valid for some people (I don't agree with them, but I can at least see how a rational person could object, basically) I gotta say more companies should use a third party fulfillment house. It cuts into profits and might cost more, but having done fulfillment for a company (well, I was the one who dealt with our fulfillment house) it is a smart move for companies that are not equipped to deal with large volume of shipping. For those who don't know what this is, there are places that will handle shipping and storage of your poo poo. You get the benefit of not having to warehouse the product and not needing to personally deal with shipping, and your customers get the benefit of discounted shipping to a degree (because the company you are dealing with gets volume discounts from doing this a lot) and it also means you don't have a hundred boxes of books in your living room you need to pack and ship yourself. It is a pro move, but it can be spendy.
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Jul 1, 2013 17:26
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Gau posted:What do typical contracts look like for fulfillment houses? I assume it's basically a per-item fee, but is there a setup cost or anything else? The place that we worked with was more or less robbing us blind. There was a warehouse fee (reasonable enough), a per order fee, a pick fee, packaging fees, and handling fees and then shipping. My bosses were dumb so we ate all of that.
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Jul 4, 2013 02:21
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Bumping this so people have a place to go to debate about the true spirit of Kickstarter.
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Aug 6, 2013 04:24
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jivjov posted:I just would like to clarify that I'm not defending rape as an action. I am defending the right for game creators to make any sort of game they want, and players to play any sort of game they want. If that involves rape, that's the concern of said creators and players. I think it is, at least in part (and I am gonna guess other people will articulate this better than I will), is because a lot of the other acts done in RPGs have some penumbra, somewhere, where they are acceptable. Killing a guy is acceptable sometimes if you are defending someone or if you are a soldier or whatever; if you are Jean Valjean and are starving and steal a loaf of bread and some candlesticks people will empathise. There is no like, "justifiable rape" or "acceptable standard of child sacrifice" or whatever. There is nothing gained there, it is just unpleasantness inflicted for its own sake. Murder or theft or other tricky bits in games can be interesting because there is some kind of moral range there where you can explore if something is all right or not. Unless you are Ferretball, there is never that area for rape so it gets a special spot.
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Aug 6, 2013 04:35
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Countblanc posted:I have no idea where this derail came from but holy moly it sounds like a doozy. There is a Kickstarter of bad sounding games, one of which ends with "the rape scene" where a sword tells you to rape someone and you do it. No poo poo.
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Aug 6, 2013 04:36
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I would helpfully direct arguments about how to be a feminist correctly to the Fem thread in E/N where they go. This is not a suggestion. I am sorry if people are doing it incorrectly jimbo, perhaps you could go tell them how there.
Winson_Paine fucked around with this message at 16:34 on Aug 6, 2013 |
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Aug 6, 2013 16:22
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jivjov posted:I don't really care to continue a discussion here, as its not worth a probation or ban if I say something the moderators interpret badly. If you would like to continue a discussion on the topic (Preferably without dragging personal insults into the mix) could we please do it via PM? Seriously how could posting this seem remotely like a good idea? Feel free to post when you get back, dorkwad.
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Aug 7, 2013 02:05
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Verdugo posted:So just to get this straight: This is super entertaining, it really is, but jivjov is too scared of the iron boot of my tyranny to respond as is only right and proper. If this thread could get away from any perceived internal inconsistencies in his kickstarter belief system and back to the actual KS discussion which is kind of interesting, that would be super. Mors Rattus posted:Come on, tell us how you really feel. COme on guys, stop baiting the guy.
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Aug 9, 2013 01:44
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jivjov posted:Yes I do. But it also stands to reason that anyone who's going to be looking closely enough to see "Oh hey, the author of this stretch goal document is the same guy as the layout guy on Misery Index" will be cognizant enough to realize that the layout guy is not responsible for the content of Misery Index. This is the third time you have said that. MINI MOD CHALLENGE You are required to make an actual argument within the next hour that is not fishing for arguments or pointless devils advocate bullshit. This is not optional. You are required to take an actual position and advocate an actual stance. I don't care what it is, but if you just repeat this general statement a fourth time, I am going to ban you.
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Aug 9, 2013 21:32
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Clock starts now.
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Aug 9, 2013 21:33
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jivjov posted:A fair enough response, I was just interested in the logic behind the decision. It turns out we're approaching "association" from different viewpoints. Nope, you posted the same nearly identical question three times running, you need to take a position on something and defend it. We don't abide cowards in TG, so no retreating!
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Aug 9, 2013 22:01
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jivjov posted:I've never heard of a mod challenge before now, so I don't know what the accepted protocol is. I framed my point to the best of my ability, my original question to the Inverse World team was answered by them. I read that the first time you posted it, and the time you PMed it to me. Clock is still ticking.
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Aug 9, 2013 22:06
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jivjov posted:The only position I can take is that every single person on this green earth has done some manner of "bad thing". Be it stealing a candy bar, saying something rude to a cashier, or doing layout work on a questionable RPG product. Telling someone "I don't like this project you're doing layout for, so you can no longer work on Inverse World or any other project my company makes" seems harsh to me; if doing something you find objectionable is such a black mark and makes someone unfit to be a co-worker/co-collaborator/whatever, you'll quickly find yourself out of co-workers. Why is it harsh, why do you find this unreasonable? We are going to make a good poster out of you yet. CLOCK SUSPENDED
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Aug 9, 2013 22:07
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jivjov posted:I actually just arrived at work, if you would like me to, I will be glad to elaborate when my lunch break hits. Fair enough, CLOCK SUSPENDED.
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Aug 9, 2013 22:09
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Mors Rattus posted:Why do you consider rudeness to someone equivalentwith shoplifting a candy bar? Why do you consider either to be equivalent with assisting in the creation of games about rape or sexual abuse? I don't believe either of those was intended as an equivalency, only other examples of external consequence resulting from action. I don't particularly have a dog in this fight either way (Mikan/Gnome can have whoever they want do the layout), but I don't think Kai was intending that. I will say I don't really see it unreasonable to remove someone in their professional capacity for participating in other activities they are also doing in their professional capacity; it is the nature of freelance work to accrue a portfolio of projects. Those projects reflect the person that participated in them as well as the projects themselves. Comparing it to removing someone for being the wrong color or gender or whatever is a false comparison, in my estimation, because color/gender/whatever do not reflect a professional capacity. If someone doesn't want their project (in the specific) to be associated with another project (in the specific) in any way (which appears to be what is happening here) then I am fine with that. In fact, in some cases such a disassociation might be needed to prevent a conflict of interests. Beyond that, both parties seem amicable to dissolving their business partnership that they agreed to, and that they agreed to dissolve, so in a lot of ways I don't see how it is any of my fuckin' business how either of them spend their time. I ain't paying, after all.
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Aug 9, 2013 22:41
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jivjov posted:A lot of the disagreement was me taking a much more...involved definition of 'association'. I was looking at it from a "who actually created the sword-rape content and who is just doing layout work" whereas the Inverse World folks were using a much more general "he worked on a thing that we don't like". From my end of things, I see it as harsh that a guy who did not write one single word of Oldest Cruelest Sword is being judged by said content. However, if the the goal is "I want as many degrees of separation between that project and ours" then it's perfectly reasonable from that context. You are now involved in a discussion and seem to be arguing in good faith, you are absolved of the challenge. Go forth and sin no more, carrying the seed of good discussion about the forums. CHALLENGE PASSED
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Aug 10, 2013 00:20
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jivjov posted:I guess the one distinction I've been drawing that's been the main subject of discussion is "author" vs "layout artist". Then you can hire the guy for your projects, I guess? I dunno if a clearer answer can be given than what has been spelled out above. Being the layout guy is clearly more intimate a relationship than the IW guys are comfortable with, and they acted on it. Your estimation of such may be different. That aside, layout (depending on the product and how much attention is being paid) can vary widely on the book. If you have a fairly straightforward presentation (like say, dungeon world core book, or any given GURPS book) then it is an important but not a huge role. If it is something more art/design intensive (think the 4E L5R books, or a White Wolf splat) then they are more important and if the design is such layout plays an "active" role in the presentation (Underground or HOL or something where the presentation is huge) then they are a fairly involved player.
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Aug 10, 2013 01:30
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JDCorley posted:Paranoia rushes to mind... Basically what you are saying is SJG and WEG are and were (respectively) awesome. EDIT: This is also the official position of the SA TG forum.
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Aug 15, 2013 18:59
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Not gonna lie, this is a dumbass argument. Here, let me lay down some truths: - First, all of the arguments below are predicated on this poo poo being a luxury good. This is not someone's medication being withheld, no child will miss a meal because someone charged a dollar for a short story, no one will be sleeping in the rain because DTRPG is charging for a DW class. - People wanting to be paid for things is not "wrong", you are free to charge whatever you like and be paid whatever you like. - You can not pay. Get this, just like Fenarisk states he is not OWED anything from people, he is also not entitled to their poo poo for free. They don't owe you poo poo either, buddy, regardless of how good you think it is or not. - It ain't your job to tell other people what their poo poo is worth, except in that you are free to pay it or not. Odds are good if you are unwilling to pay for their poo poo, they could give a gently caress. - There is plenty of poo poo out there free, right now. We are drowning in it. You could masturbate to a different piece of Harry Potter pornography once a day for the next thirty years and never pay a dime for any of it. This still doesn't entitle you to other peoples work. Holy poo poo this is dumb, if someone charges money for something, good on 'em. I wish them well of it. If you don't want to give them money? Don't.
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Oct 8, 2013 21:02
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Fenarisk posted:I guess it's more of a personal thing, the same way I don't think tip jars should exist for people just doing their jobs at Subway or Starbucks and I don't think someone doing less than a professional level job should be compensated. It probably makes me an rear end for having unrealistic expectations so I will concede. Then don't tip at Subway or Starbucks? This poo poo isn't hard. Most people don't. Sometimes someone is exceptionally nice or does something exceptionally good, and they get tipped. If this starts the tipping convo in here I swear to god I will lay the boots to people however.
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Oct 8, 2013 21:06
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BrainParasite posted:I have the strangest urge to buy a Numenera license and write the worst officially licensed supplement of all time. Honestly there is probably some cash to be made doing some quick $5 PDF supplements for DTRPG using the licence, I bet there is enough reactionary pro-Cook sentiment that you could make some decent cash on the quick even with the $50 fee.
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Oct 10, 2013 16:14
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Bucnasti posted:I wasn't really doing tabletop gaming at the time, so I'm asking out of curiosity: The FFG Star Wars game is crushing it in terms of sales, from what I know, and it is all prepainted things on a good licence with a neat game. stoutfish posted:I am a terrible person and there is nothing you can do about it. I am the face of the hobby. It is hereby established as TG Canon that stoutfish is a shitlord. Be it known to one and all. You are not the face of this hobby, however, you are a face in the crowd. That said, this thread is not about what a jerk you in particular are. Certainly there is a segment of the community that is gonna be jerks, I imagine there are probably model train dicks too and mean knitters and bastard scrapbookers or whatever. Either discuss things, or go and dwell. You have farted in the room and everyone is smelling it, consider this a fan blowing that away and now you have to act like a grown up person again.
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Apr 20, 2014 05:52
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Error 404 posted:But, to be way more fair than that crowd deserves, it was a massively stupid thing Gau posted. Like with the situation as it is and all, it goes to levels of dumb we don't have words for, So I'm calling this Gau. This isn't the chat thread, nor is it the callout thread. Please knock this off.
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Jul 23, 2014 15:43
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ravenkult posted:Wait, why the gently caress is Mikan banned. I should either add this to the FAQ or get Dagon to make a list we can randomly consult to give the answer.
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Jul 23, 2014 15:54
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Error 404 posted:Not so much inversion as it is newfound, and vocal, appreciation for the non-lovely parts. Here buy a goblin. http://paizo.com/products/btpy8veo?Pathfinder-Goblin-Plush-Licktoad-Tribe
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Jul 25, 2014 19:12
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Alien Rope Burn posted:This is true. The problem is that a some of the problematic material is right there in the core game and bestiary, and those aren't going anywhere. Hopefully that'll change someday, but until it does, it's going to keep being a problem for me, at least. I can dig that, but I think the point for many is they are seeing demonstrable improvement. Does this mean they are going to pulp their core book in favor of a reprinting without those elements? No, of course not. Does it mean they are doing better now than they were from the letter you quoted from two years ago? Sure. Is Wrath a clear improvement over Runelords? Sure. Progress is made. I don't think anyone is saying they are without flaw, but as far as major companies go (particularly given the weirdness around 5e recently) they are certainly showing signs. If it would take PF 2nd Ed (or probably at this point, PF Core Revised is more likely) without the elements you object to included to be printed, that is fine, but flat out denying that anything is happening seems a little much.
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Jul 25, 2014 22:45
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Wilde Jagd posted:Unfortunately, Paizo's acceptance of LGBT issues is marred by their awkward insistence to fetishize lesbians in many of their products. This is a new one on me, where do they do that?
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Jul 25, 2014 22:51
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unseenlibrarian posted:On the other hand, Privateer Press has apparently hired Larry Correia for their game fiction line, who's a "There's no such thing as rape culture" charmer and best buds with Vox Day. You know, the guy who was kicked out of the SFWA for calling a black author a "Half Savage". IDK if I can write a company off because one of the guys they hire is friends with a jerk. Like if they hired Vox Day, sure.
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Jul 25, 2014 23:01
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Tulul posted:How is Paizo improving? Genuine question, I obviously haven't been paying enough attention to them the past few years. If they're improving, that's great, but no one's actually said how they're getting better. They have, actually. You need to go about 40+ posts back to find it tho. Short answer is more inclusiveness and inclusiveness in terms of relevant NPCs in the AP stuff and generally being cooler. Someone else can repost the links or you can just go back and look, I am super lazy anymore.
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Jul 25, 2014 23:04
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Cassa posted:So in the wake of WOTC deciding to describe sexuality and gender in their games in a way, best described as a paternalistic grandpa trying his best, but not really helping, Paizo comes out with things like this. Found one of them anyway, here.
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Jul 25, 2014 23:05
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FMguru posted:Correia has his own issues w/r/t women and minorities and the gays, and Vox Day is quite a bit more than just "a jerk". This is a derail but I checked with the mod and it is OK, what did Corria do? I kind of liked the GRIMNOIR books even if they were almost cartoonishly right wing in spots (making FDR a big bad was awesome) but know nothing about him as a dude. EDIT: oh
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Jul 25, 2014 23:11
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Wilde Jagd posted:Depicted: Areelu Vorlesh, the main villain of Wrath of the Righteous (NSFW, obviously) Well a succubus IS a magic fuckmonster. I mean if you have a magic fuckmonster (not to be confused with the ogres in Runelords, which are just regular fuckmonsters) you are gonna have problems I reckon.
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Jul 25, 2014 23:29
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bunnielab posted:I think the "corruption of sexuality" is a reasonably legit topic for RPGs to include if you are going for a more serious themed game. I agree, but (and again this is sort of a derail) I am not sure if a monster based on supersitions that more or spring from a fear of sex and an idea that sex is in and of itself corrupt are the best basis for an exploration of sexuality itself being corrupted. You would need some different monster for that; you can even see a refinement of it in Stoker's Dracula. The Succubus as presented in PF/D&D is not the vehicle to explore that particular topic in any real way.
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Jul 26, 2014 02:53
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Alien Rope Burn posted:Mind, with Golarion, succubi are the tricky supernatural seductresses, Incubi just straight-up force surprise sex on people. Also, you can guess which is depicted more art-wise, too... but then, they know their audience. I guess the other issue is that, properly played, they are kind of an unfun monster. Like "hey I am gonna send a sniper assassin against the players" where the first indicator that someone is after them is when one of their head explodes from a shot 500 yards away it is kind of a drag narratively to be like "ok the hottie you picked up at the tavern and you start to go at it, fare to black except in your case the black is the black of eternity because you just lost all your levels." It seems tough to manage.
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Jul 26, 2014 16:43
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I also have no suggestions and just showed up to complain about what you did rarrrrr
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Sep 25, 2016 02:26
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| # ¿ Apr 27, 2024 07:37 |
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Gau posted:- The "Groggies" is not only a loving dumb name, it will trigger resentment from the gaming community. As much as grogs.txt was a thing, no one likes being called a grognard. Everything triggers resentment from the game community; look at the initial and weirdly hostile response to an award thing in the space of an hour.
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Sep 25, 2016 02:28
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