TG As An Industry - Past, Present, Future - The Something Awful Forums

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > TG As An Industry - Past, Present, Future

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

In a store, you exchange money for goods, you get them 99% of the time (usually immediately or within a few days), and if you don't, you have a myriad of legal options to get you money back. On kickstarter, you exchange money for the vague promise of some sort of goods at some point in the future, and if it doesn't pan out, there isn't a lot you can do to get your money back.

Kickstarter is a charity. You contribute money to a worthy cause, and if everything goes right, you might get a nice thank-you present in the mail. If you don't, well, that's life.

# ¿ Apr 5, 2013 13:38

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# ¿ May 2, 2024 07:39

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
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Rulebook Heavily posted:

It's a conundrum. A parody of a game can totally be a game in its own right, so you want to make it good. But to parody White Wolf games, you'd have to make it uhhhh

I always thought HackMaster did a great job of having it both ways: a full-on 800 page parody of AD&D carried to ridiculous extremes that was also a fully playable (and quite cleverly designed, in places) RPG for people who wanted to play AD&D carried to ridiculous extremes. I'm kind of sad it gets left out of all the hoopla about OSR Retroclones.

# ¿ Aug 10, 2013 16:04

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

Kai Tave posted:

Where are all the GMS fans? He doesn't have any outside of those gamers who venerate anyone who calls themselves a "professional game designer."

He's always had the sort of coterie that gathers around alpha-nerd types who affect a tell-it-like-it-is, no b.s. attitude (apposite quote: "You tell 'em, Steve-Dave!"). Act like an alpha-dog, and some people will assume you must have alpha-dog chops because otherwise how could you get away with acting like that?

He truly and honestly seems to have gotten into (and continued) his career as a game designer solely because it gives him a perch from which he can look down on the common lumpen gamer.

(Is he still advertising his services as a gaming business consultant? Because that would just about murder me with laughter.)

There was a segment a couple of weeks ago on the Ken Hite/Robin Laws podcast (which you should all be listening to) where they declared that the biggest misconception about game industry pros is that they have really strong, tribal feelings about games and companies and designers in the same way their most intense fans do. K&R pointed out that most people in the industry get along with each other very well, and for obvious reasons - it's a small field, you will encounter everyone in person at cons, reputations matter, being a troublemaking loudmouth will result in your not getting assignments, and your next gig may be for a company that's the exact opposite of what your last gig was. They cited the example of 3E vs. 4E D&D over which so much e-blood has been spilled by fans, and how the two games' designers not only are great friends, but they seamlessly collaborated on their own well-received fantasy RPG, 13TH AGE.

Skarka and Wick and similar belligerent loudmouths really do find themselves consigned to the peripheries of the industry, releasing their work (or not, snicker) on the indie/self-publishing/kickstarter tip because no one will hire them for more than the occasional one-off. Professionalism matters, kids.

# ¿ Nov 21, 2013 02:27

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

Mikan posted:

Keeping these things secret only hurts people looking to enter into the industry - RPG authors are gossipy, catty people, and anyone who's even kind of in the loop knows about this stuff. Nobody wants to be the one who goes public with these things but it leaves predatory publishers and awful people open to take advantage of new talent entering the industry, while the existing authors nod their heads and pretend to be shocked if it's ever revealed.

If a company is having money problems (like, not being able to pay its freelancers), it really wants to avoid word getting out that it's on the ropes, because the way the rumor mill works is that once a company is known (or "known") to be in trouble, then stores stop ordering their products, distributors stop carrying their products, and gamers stop buying their products. Rumors of going-out-of-business become self-fulfilling prophecies.

If you're a freelancer who wrote a book or painted a cover or did some layout for Company X and are owed money by them, your only hope of getting paid is that they stay in business and generate revenue and send you a check, which they can't do if they're driven out of business because people starting publicly airing their dirty laundry and talking about their dire financial situation. So freelancers have an incentive to keep bad news hidden and their employers afloat so they can someday collect, and they don't take kindly to other freelancers blowing the whistle. The same is true about editors who hire freelancers - if there are multiple people up for an assignment, do you really want to give it to a guy who will start blogging doom and gloom about your company if his check is a day late?

The real losers are newer/less plugged-in freelancers who do work for Company X and don't know that they haven't paid anyone in two years because of this blanket of silence. And there are some companies who understand this and put paying freelancers at the very bottom of the list because they know freelancers will put up with long delays, 'cause they have strong incentives not to call the company out in public.

# ¿ Nov 28, 2013 18:49

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
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Leperflesh posted:

This all sounds like companies hire people and ask them to do work, while not having on hand the money necessary to pay them for that work. That seems like a really shady business practice right there.

It's not necessarily shady, it's just that sometimes income doesn't quiet meet expenses and you have to prioritize/triage the payments, and freelancers often get shuffled to the bottom of that list.

And pretty much all small-game publishing freelancing is based on the "write and submit this now, we'll pay you after it sells and we have the money" model. If that money doesn't show up or there are unexpected expenses and delays or sales just aren't what you projected them to be, then the freelancer is mostly out of luck. Such is life in the shoestring hobby publishing market (especially given the above-mentioned very amateur approaches to business that a lot of new, small game companies have).

# ¿ Nov 29, 2013 16:53

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
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Covok posted:

If this is the gospel truth, then Moon Design was clearly in the wrong: they did not obtain permission to create this product from the holder of the copyright and yet still tried to get funding for it and produce it. The law is the law and, surprisingly, is pretty clear cut in this case.

Does anyone know if Moon Design is a new company? I'm only asking because this sounds very amateurist on their part. I mean copyright right and trademark can sometimes be confusing, but this is a very clear violation that they should have been aware of.

Also, what is GMS?

What?

Moon Design has the trademark to HeroQuest. They picked it up and published a fantasy RPG with that name in the mid-2000s after Hasbro/GW let it lapse.

# ¿ Dec 1, 2013 06:52

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
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MadScientistWorking posted:

The only thing I don't get is why would they need to contact Hasbro. The only IP issues I'm aware of is the trademark name. Otherwise everything else is pretty straightforward.

The game (the rules, the characters, the maps, the art, etc.) is still owned by Hasbro/GW. It looks like Gamezone doesn't have those rights, either. MD asked them for proof that they had the right to make a 25th Anniversary HQ Reprint and Gamezone didn't reply.

Gamezone tried to raise a half-million dollars to re-print a game they didn't have the rights to and release it under a name that someone else had the trademark to. Some things in IP law are tricky, murky, or stupidly unjust; this is none of those things.

# ¿ Dec 1, 2013 21:52

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
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moths posted:

I typically assume they are primarily making money online, running the business as a hobby, buying their personal figures or magic cards wholesale, bad at business, or some combination of those things.

Once in a while you get a "dad bought me a store and I helped plan it!" place, and that's kind of the worst.

Ohhh, those places. Yeah, they're just storefronts so the owner can barely meet the requirements for being allowed to order at wholesale prices for his personal collection/friends in his club.

# ¿ Jan 19, 2014 18:34

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

Popular-Thing-X-With-The-Serial-Numbers-Filed-Off has been a thing for RPGs since small times. Vampire:The Masquerade is the unofficial adaptation of Anne Rice's Vampire stories, Cyberpunk 2020 is the unofficial adaptation of William Gibson's Sprawl stories, and Conspiracy X is the unofficial X-Files adaptation, to name just three.

# ¿ Jan 22, 2014 22:49

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
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Rulebook Heavily posted:

Well, I wouldn't hold your breath; here's the reports from Fantasy Flight Games. (I guess we can try inputting other elfgame companies on this, if we want to be depressed.)

e: I can't find Palladium on this, but then again that one got so bad it became public.

The problem with Glassdoor reviews is the same as with other rating websites like Yelp - only people with particularly strong axes to grind file comments, so the ratings tend to be dominated by the narrow sliver of people who quit or were fired and are looking to vent (equally suspicious are the 4.5 and 5 star reviews that gush about how wonderful simply wonderful XYZ corporation is to work for that always stink of an HR plant).

# ¿ Apr 20, 2014 17:28

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
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Kai Tave posted:

I was wondering what Grimjim was up to these days, that's fantastic.

That's almost as good as the guy from the old Grognards thread who kept insisting that Gor would make a great setting for kids.

FMguru fucked around with this message at 21:14 on May 5, 2014

# ¿ May 5, 2014 21:05

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
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Ettin posted:

And speaking of forums! In the last few years a lot of major communities have stepped up their game when it comes to showing assholes the door.

What always gets me about RPGnet's oh-so-fascist moderation is how limited it is. No playing the "but what about the menz?" card. No lecturing transpeople about what their "real" gender is. Don't use "gay" or "retarded" as a slur. Gosh, it's so hard to be a straight white man, with all these stupid rules we have to follow.

quote:

Take RPGnet (this is an easy one for me to dump on for some reason). Some banned designers cry that RPGnet isn't relevant and they know designers who totally don't go there any more, but they are full of poo poo.

Tarnowski, too, had a lot of acolytes try to repost/start discussions about his nonsense long after he flounced off of RPGnet in a huff.

I seem to recall Skarka being very upset at not being able to rules-lawyer (as in "I'll just have a non-banned user repost everything from my blog and twitter feed on RPGnet! It's the perfect crime!" or something similar) his way around his ban.

# ¿ May 6, 2014 16:43

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
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ravenkult posted:

I'm mostly out of the RPG freelancing arena because I priced myself out of it at 300$ for a cover or 200$ for full page interiors. That's how small the industry is.

One of the traditional escape hatches for RPG writers is to move up to genre fiction writing (Mike Stackpole and Aaron Allston both did this, among others). Genre fiction pays like rear end (unless you're the next J.K. Rowling or Stephanie Myers or Suzanne Collins) so it really says something about pay rates in RPGs that writing midlist SF and fantasy and franchise novels is a big step up in terms of compensation.

# ¿ Jul 21, 2014 15:11

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
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Winson_Paine posted:

IDK if I can write a company off because one of the guys they hire is friends with a jerk. Like if they hired Vox Day, sure.

Correia has his own issues w/r/t women and minorities and the gays, and Vox Day is quite a bit more than just "a jerk".

# ¿ Jul 25, 2014 23:06

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
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Kerzoro posted:

So, you want to make a god/goddess that encourages pleasurable sex? A culture that embraces that kind of thing? HOW do you handle it without being told that what you are doing is wrong?

... well, you can't, somebody somewhere is going to complain about something anyway. But, this doesn't mean there shouldn't be like an actual solid attempt to do it, right?

And then there's all the cheesecake. Me? I like me some cheesecake. The problem arises when that is -all there is-. I've long since reached the point where I find pictures of women wearing armor with bare midriffs just makes me groan, no matter how good the picture is. I'm actually pretty fond of the iconic Pathfinder Paladin since, hey, fully armored female character! Boobplate's still dumb but I'll take my victories where I can get them.

This isn't grognards.txt. Also, source your quotes.

# ¿ Jul 29, 2014 18:17

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
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Rulebook Heavily posted:

Soooo a man decided to look at Thunder Plains for real

I'm pretty sure that man is our very own forums poster Serf.

Also, hoooooly shitballs, what a loving mess.

# ¿ Mar 21, 2015 04:18

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
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Evil Mastermind posted:

Or, to put a finer point on it, the only valid moral outrage is Gareth's moral outrage. If he doesn't see a reason to be upset about something, then people are just overreacting.

Gareth has a hierarchy of outrage, and at the very top of that pyramid is Mere Fans Talking poo poo To Game Designers. Skarka will take up cudgels against any fan or fans who dare to treat Game Designers with anything other than perfect deference and overweening gratitude. It trumps all other considerations for him, which is why him announcing his unwillingness to keep supporting and defending James "The Grim Raper" Desborough against his critics was such a shock

# ¿ Mar 22, 2015 03:11

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
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Plague of Hats posted:

So apparently GMS is blocked by @Gen_Con, and he's revving up his ~~one-man Outrage Brigade~~reasonable personal standards over how the giant multimillion dollar convention didn't immediately announce a new venue for five years from now.

GMS thinks you can just tear up a contract and unilaterally walk away from a financial commitment? Quelle surprise.

# ¿ Mar 27, 2015 13:03

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

I hope nobody here falls for the obvious scam Mr. Hicks is trying to perpetrate by relying on old tricks like "communicating in a clear and timely manner" and "taking responsibility" and "releasing the content for free". He just wants your money! Open your eyes, sheeple!

# ¿ Mar 31, 2015 18:57

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
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Saguaro PI posted:

Why would I want to throw flaming balls of death for a little bit when I can gently caress the dog all day?

You even took the appropriate feat!

# ¿ May 6, 2015 00:05

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
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Bucnasti posted:

The RPG industry is held together by naivete, shady business practices and passionate people working for free.

Don't forget cheapskates whining about how expensive the books are.

$40! For a small print run 240 page full-sized color hardback! It's outrageous!

# ¿ May 6, 2015 21:53

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

jivjov posted:

I think the "costs too much" complaint is mostly coming from people new to the hobby

Lots of old grognards complain about it, too - usually while whining about all the unnecessary production values games have nowadays. A ziploc bag full of loose-leaf 3-hole punched pages typeset on a dot matrix printer and run of at a xerox place for $9 was good enough for 1981, it should be just fine today!

Also, lines like this from grognards.txt

quote:

The price of the new Runequest books adds to the same reason I have skipped on the remakes of Paranoia and Warhammer Fantasy.

Games I am happy with but have never been able to get anyone to play don't really require me to rebuy them to like, not play these ones either.

Besides, for Runequest I have a FULL RPG system that cost me 35 bucks in 88 (don't bring up inflation. Just... don't. 35 bucks then is pretty much 35 bucks now regardless of what people try to say.) and is a complete RPG system outside of a world setting which I really don't need anyhow.

If one of the RQ books looks like it would go nicely with the old set I might get it, but all I see is another game I simply don't need to buy.

# ¿ May 7, 2015 00:06

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
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Evil Mastermind posted:

WotC never steps outside the D&D pool. The most they did was Gamma World, which got a lot of positive response, but they barely did anything with it. WotC's so focused on keeping the D&D crowd happy they won't try anything new (and probably don't have the talent to try anyway).

WotC is focused on CCGs and boardgames, not RPGs, so it makes sense that they don't put a lot of effort into trying to diversify their RPG holdings. They've seen the numbers for RPG market size and customer spending, and they understand that they're much better off investing in growing their other departments instead of trying to launch new RPGs.

RPGs are just murderously hard to make money at (because once you have the core books and a set of dice, you don't have to spend anything else again ever) long term, which is why companies resort to things like the supplement treadmill and knitting everything together in a metaplot and tying in cross-media promotions, or go out of business, or are run by people earning sub-minimum wages as cottage/hobby enterprise.

# ¿ May 7, 2015 18:12

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
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Leperflesh posted:

In the US, food is remarkably cheaper than it was 25 years ago. Gasoline costs more on an inflation-adjusted basis (barely) if you measure it by the gallon, but if you measure the cost of fuel as cost-per-mile, it's flat or lower, because national average fuel efficiency is much higher. And the cost of "utilities" is generally pretty flat, with occasional local variations (the cost of heating fuel in the northeast during a specific long cold winter, say).

The real things that have shot up in price in the last 20-30 years have been: rent/housing, healthcare, and education, which are squeezing the hell out of people's (shrinking) paychecks. Oh, and the need for people to save more and more for retirement, as pensions disappear. Lots of stuff is cheaper (food, clothing, entertainment), stable (energy), or ridiculously cheaper (electronics).

# ¿ May 7, 2015 19:36

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
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Bucnasti posted:

They also do pretty well with licensing, specifically video game licensing, and I think that might be the main reason they keep the product going.

I suspect Hasbro thinks of D&D like they do Transformers - a legacy nerd brand that's worth keeping around for licensing and nostalgia products to aging fans and which might down the road blow up into a billion-dollar franchise, but certainly not as something worth pumping a ton of money into as an RPG.

# ¿ May 7, 2015 19:52

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
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MadScientistWorking posted:

I'm legitimately curious as to how Transformers can be a legacy brand. It has a lot more invested into it than D&D can ever hope for.

Transformers was a legacy brand - a lingering echo of from its early 1980s heyday, enthusiasm for which was confined to a core of long-term enthusiasts. And then someone made a live-action movie out of them, and welp here comes a firehose spraying $10 billion all over everyone.

They'll keep D&D around for the same reason: the hope that they can turn it into a retro-pop culture sensation at some point in the future.

# ¿ May 7, 2015 21:36

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
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MadScientistWorking posted:

Yeah that was what I was wondering. Transformers for me is one of the things I grew up on so while I never bought many toys it was something that was culturally relevant for me as I grew up because they never stopped producing cartoons. Like the sheer amount of money spent in terms of cartoons had to indicate that the brand did something which is what threw me for a loop.
EDIT:
Transformers always tended to do something that I enjoyed which is the type of old person pandering where kids wouldn't necessarily get the joke but older fans would. Animated had a bunch of references like Weird Al being Wreck Gar and using the original voice actor for Blur. Admittedly, Im not sure how you could translate that to the RPG industry.

My impression of TF was that it was a smash success in the early 80s, peaking with the animated movie, and then downshifted to mostly catering to long-term fans through the 1990s (where it showed up in a lot of Gen-X pandering "hey, remember these artifacts of your childhood?" articles next to the Ecto-Cooler and the Rubik's Cubes). Then nostalgia got it going again in the early 2000s, leading to the movies, leading to it being a license to print money. My Little Pony is another property that boomed in the 1980s, went fallow for a while (except for long-term fans), and then was brought back later to huge success.

I just think Hasbro probably has a similar plan for D&D. Keep it alive and in print at a low level, cater to hardcover fans, and wait for the tides of pop culture to shift. Everything about 5e and the reprint lines make it seem like its being treated as a beloved nerd artifact of olde and not as something with a lot of potential to be developed and delivered to new audiences. They seem content for now to put it into maintenance mode and market to the same subset of aging grogs who have been buying the game since the 1980s.

# ¿ May 7, 2015 22:45

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
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Bucnasti posted:

The Transformers brand reinvents itself every couple of years with new toys, new cartoons and a whole new batch of 8 year olds to sell to. This is the type of lesson WotC has figured out for Magic (appealing to and bringing in new generations of players) but not for D&D.

Another company who is (was?) really good at this: Games Workshop. Rebooting and reissuing their game lines, new models, new sculpts, new fluff, always going after new players and new markets with a marked lack of concern for old-timers and continuity.

# ¿ May 7, 2015 23:37

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
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Kai Tave posted:

There's a kernel of truth to what FMguru is saying or at least there was. Games Workshop has generally never been concerned about pandering to the hardcore "diehard fanbase" the way that D&D is currently doing with Next, they've always been more interested in courting Little Timmy the 12 year old who sees a window display of space marines with chainsaw swords and pesters mom and dad to drop hundreds of dollars so he can have his own army of chainsawmen (and also official Citadel paints and official Citadel brushes and official Citadel etceteras). Of course when Little Timmy turns 18 he may pack away all his half-painted miniatures in a box to gather dust in the attic, but by then there's a new crop of 12 year olds to enthrall.

On the one hand, it's a good and sensible thing to not get too wrapped up in catering to your hardcore fans (or "fans") to the exclusion of new, fresh-faced customers. New blood is a good thing, and a lot of tradgame folks (including some publishers and designers) spend a lot of time chasing potential new players and customers away from the clubhouse, so for a company to go "no we want new people, please come and buy our game" seems like a smart move on their part.

The problem is that it's essentially GW's only smart move, and it's been completely undermined by all the other dumb, counterproductive poo poo they seem determined to do. Thanks to repeated price hikes GW has priced themselves out of Little Timmy's parents' pockets...for the cost of getting into 40K you could buy little Timmy a brand new video game console, or a shitload of video and/or board games, or a bunch of X-Wing miniatures (which don't need paints and assembly to play), etc. They've also gone out of their way to slash and burn any sort of community that's developed around their games...Games Day has no actual games being played at it, they have no social media presence to speak of, no official forums, they hold no official tournaments, etc. Compare this to Magic, or X-Wing, or even D&D and Pathfinder which at least have Living/Organized Play events. And while GW has always positioned themselves as king of the hill due to the quality of their miniatures, frankly there are like a half dozen other tabletop games out there turning out work at least as good, if not better, than the stuff you'll find in 40K these days.

I also think that there's a slight but important distinction to make between actively courting new players and markets, which successful games like Magic do, and simply not giving a poo poo about your older fans which is what GW does. GW attracting fresh faced kids eager to spend mom and dad's money on space marines wasn't really a thing they aggressively made inroads towards so much as a happy side-effect of kids liking power armored space knights with chainswords that they were willing to capitalize on.

Yeah, that was my point. GW was always unusual in the way they understood that catering to long-term fans eventually puts you in a death spiral, and that most fans will grumble but still give you their money, and if they do walk away, well, you still got their money. Every new player is another person to sell a full set of rulebooks, paints, brushes, and other supplies to, and once they've done that maybe they'll get tired of the game and leave the hobby (usually by turning 17 and discovering beer and girls and going out and weed) which is OK because they keep bringing new 13-year olds into the hobby, or else they'll stick around and become one of those grumbling old-timers who complain about everything but still spend money. They even keep a couple of arms of the company around specifically to sell to old-timers - the mail-order Specialist games line and the super-expensive Citadel resin mail-order line. I've also been struck by the way they refresh their game's physical presentation to keep up with the times, particularly the late 2000s switch from their traditional chaotic, grey-screen, squiggly margin-art look to a clean white layout across their books.

And I thought GW had done a decent job pushing their IP into new areas - they had a great run of computer games for a while (especially Dawn of War) and the rate at which they crank out those novelizations means someone is buying them. Also, licensing off to FFG for RPG support and premium boardgames (Chaos in the New World, Horus Heresy, etc.)

They make a lot of bad decisions, and recent moves by the company have been utterly bewildering, but they had a pretty good run for a long time following a strategy of focusing on selling things to new players and to hell with grognards, and they profited massively as a result.

# ¿ May 8, 2015 14:07

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
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TheTatteredKing posted:

wasn't it that FFG bought the rpg rights because GW burnt down the company section that made the rpg after it sold out on preorders

Yeah, but the point is they let FFG come out with the games (which have done very well and put a nice bit of money in GW's pockets) instead of just shutting the whole works down (which was the state of 40K RPGs for the first 20 years of the gameline).

WH40K RPGs released
1987-2008: none (uh, maybe Inquisitor if you squint really hard)
2008-2015: Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, Deathwatch, BlacK Crusade, Only War, DH 2E

Looks like a company expanding its market and reaching customers in new ways to me.

# ¿ May 8, 2015 14:23

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
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ElegantFugue posted:

Oh man, could you imagine if they got the Leverage guy who did Fell's Five for this?
Any true D&D film shouldn't be some epic fantasy adventure, it should be a simple dungeon heist gone horribly, horribly, horribly wrong.

I always thought D&D would make a good TV series. Party of adventurers, go out on missions/dungeon clearings every week, guest stars, recurring villains, long term plot developments every few episodes...what's not to love?

# ¿ May 8, 2015 14:25

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
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Halloween Jack posted:

As far as What Gary Wanted is concerned, remember he went on to design Dangerous Journeys and Lejendary Adventure, which were not very good and rather behind the times. He later said that Castles & Crusades was basically what he wanted AD&D 3rd Edition to be, but he had a business relationship with Troll Lord and Gygax was always a huckster, to put it bluntly.

Don't forget Cyborg Commandos!

Gygax's post-TSR run of designs and publications really doesn't create the impression of a guy who was cut down in his prime (by every grognards bette noir, no less) and that it was a tragedy that he never got to see what he would have designed (we did, it was Dangerous Journeys).

# ¿ May 8, 2015 18:34

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
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Fsmhunk posted:

I eagerly await the Cthulhu-Glorantha crossover.

Broo, gorp, walktapi, ogres, krarshtkids, caocdemon, thanatar - plenty of wriggly stuff in Glorantha already.

# ¿ Jun 4, 2015 23:47

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
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Evil Mastermind posted:

I know, it's just weird seeing that given all his stumbles and mistakes.

He's kept a game company going and publishing for 35-plus years without interruption. It's the oldest going concern in the hobby. Chaosium has had crises and changed hands a bunch of times (and is going through one right now), FGU barely exists producing a trickle of reprints, same for Flying Buffalo, SJG is still going strong but I think Palladium predates them, TSR was eaten by WotC almost 20 years ago, and GDW and Avalon Hill and SPI are long gone.

Sounds like a hall-of-famer to me.

# ¿ Jun 8, 2015 01:01

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
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DivineCoffeeBinge posted:

Keeping my fingers crossed for Pendragon 6e.

(If anyone would be crazy enough to do it it would be Stafford)

5e is just fine and is getting regular supplements published for it (PDF/POD only, unfortunately).

# ¿ Jun 8, 2015 02:01

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
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Earliest licensed RPGs?

Heritage Games had early licenses to Star Trek and John Carter, producing Star Trek: Adventure Gaming in the Final Frontier and John Carter: Warlord of Mars in 1978. I think they're the first licensed RPGs

OD&D had Conan and Lankhmar stuff in a 1976 supplement (Gods, Demigods and Heroes), which might make it the first licensed material in an RPG. It was later expanded to Deities and Demigods for AD&D in 1980 (dropping Conan but adding Lovecraft and Elric stuff).

SPI had a weirdly fascinating RPG-boardgame for their own adaptation of John Carter Warlord of Mars in 1978. Their also-weird Dallas game was 1980.

Call of Cthulhu (by Chaosium) was 1981, as was Stormbringer. Chaosium also did Thieves' World (1981), Elfquest (1984), Ringworld (1984), and Prince Valiant (1985)

Other notable licenses:
Star Trek (by FASA) was 1982
James Bond 007 (by Avalon Hill) was 1983
Marvel Super Heroes (by TSR) was 1984
Indiana Jones (by TSR) was 1984
DC Heroes (by Mayfair) was 1985
Middle Earth Role Playing (by Iron Crown) was 1985
Dr Who (by FASA) was 1985
Conan (by TSR) was 1985
Star Wars (by West End) was 1987

TMNT was 1985 and Robotech was 1986, so Palladium was kind of late to the game as far as licensed RPGs go.

FMguru fucked around with this message at 14:34 on Jun 8, 2015

# ¿ Jun 8, 2015 14:29

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

Halloween Jack posted:

TSR did Warriors of Mars (a Chainmail style game) in 1974, but they never had the rights. Did they actually have the rights to the Leiber and Howard stuff when they used it?

Heritage's licensed games were weird. From what I've read they were more like Chainmail style games that measured the stats of individual heroes, with maybe some notes for roleplaying literally stapled onto the end of the book. There's a surprising amount of stuff from the first several years of the hobby that prompts examining the boundaries between board games, wargames, RPGs, and CYOA books.

MERP is kind of an odd duck because ICE released a series of MERP campaign books before the corebook was released.

IIRC, Warriors of Mars was a straight up miniatures game, just with formations of little soldiers fighting it out on Barsoom instead of Poitiers or Austerlitz. Probably with special rules for single model named characters (like John Carter or Tars Tarkas), which is step one on the path to Chainmail and OD&D.

They had the rights to Leiber (TSR published a licensed Lankhmar boardgame early on, his stuff stayed in print through all versions of Deities and Demigods, and there was an entire subline of AD&D 2E supplements set in Lankhmar and even its own standalone RPG) but I don't think they ever had rights to Howard (which is Conan only appeared in that one early OD&D supplement and nowhere else). Moorcock and Lovecraft they never had rights to, and had to re-do Deities and Demigods once someone (Chaosium) did get the rights and asserted them.

The Wikipedia article on the Heritage games makes them sound like early OD&D clones:

wikipedia posted:

Character Generation

Characters have six attributes (Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Charisma, Luck, and Mentality) generated by 3d6 rolls modified by race. There is a �Hand-to-Hand Class� bonus, but no other skills and no experience rules. Melee combat is resolved in a single damage step. The attacker rolls 1d6-6d6 (depending on weapon) plus Strength, Dexterity, and Hand-to-Hand Class modifiers. The defender subtracts 1d6 plus Luck and Hand-to-Hand Class modifiers from this total to determine damage. Ranged combat requires a 1d6 roll under a hit number which depends on range and the attacker�s Dexterity.

Players had the option of playing virtually any humanoid character introduced in the original Star Trek TV series or the animated series. They included: Humans, Vulcans, Tellarites, Andorians, Orions, Klingons, Romulans. Two other races introduced in the animated series - Caitians and Edoans - could also be played.

Using the Basic Rules, the players used the pregenerated Bridge Crew to assume the roles of the Star Trek characters, including Captain Kirk, Mr Spock, Lieutenant Uhura and Yeoman Janice Rand from Paramount's Star Trek: The Original Series and included M�res and Arex from Paramount's Star Trek: The Animated Series.

Advanced Rules

About twenty pages of information charts and rule expansions allows for more advanced play. The Advanced section contains rules for creating original characters, a list of lifeforms and their characteristics from the TV series, advanced combat rules, and a more extensive list of equipment.

The rules included descriptions of several alien races including Larry Niven�s Kzin, an extensive equipment list, tables for randomly generated aliens, and two introductory scenarios. The scenario plots were very limited in scope compared to the average Star Trek episode. Both scenarios were essentially �dungeon crawls� complete with monsters, radioactive rocks, and traps.

So OD&D, but with phasers and Vulcans.

MERP stuff was compatible from the start with their in-print Rolemaster system (Arms Law/Spell Law/Character Law)

e: D'oh, TSR did get the rights to Conan in the mid-1980s, and published a couple of AD&D 1E modules for it and eventually it's own (interesting) standalone RPG.

FMguru fucked around with this message at 15:48 on Jun 8, 2015

# ¿ Jun 8, 2015 15:26

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

Halloween Jack posted:

The best thing about Heritage's John Carter game was that your stats and treasure were used to gain "Princess Points" which you rolled at the end of the scenario to see if one character gets to win by marrying a princess.

That's so wonderfully storygamey.

# ¿ Jun 8, 2015 16:57

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

Guilty Spork posted:

It wasn't that Palladium was especially innovative in terms of doing licensed games in itself, so much as they chose the licenses really well. TMNT and especially Robotech have had more longevity than the vast majority of licensed RPGs. Call of Cthulhu is about the only one that's lasted longer.

They only had the TMNT supplement for a short while (1985-1990), and then they converted to their house "After the Bomb" setting. And there was a ten year gap between Robotech lines (1998-2008) when nothing was in print.

quote:

(OTOH we can criticize how Siembieda just plain didn't seem to understand what Robotech is about, or if he did he was utterly unequipped to actually make an RPG version.)

You can make a pretty good case that the Robotech creators (Carl Macek, et al) just plain didn't understand what the original material they were working with (Macross, Mospeda, Southern Cross), so it's fairly in keeping with the whole Robotech zeitgeist to not really understand what you're doing.

# ¿ Jun 8, 2015 19:48

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# ¿ May 2, 2024 07:39

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

Plague of Hats posted:

Literally just started a MERP game last night for shits, and yeah, I had to be pretty clear that this is basically 80's D&D but with more charts and lots of Tolkien words on top. They really did an amazing job with their setting information, for the time, but it's just so much cruft for actually running most games, and then Gandalf's spell list is a bunch of elemental iterations of magic missile peppered amongst rope tricks and food conjuring.

Those goddamn maps, though. Still some of the coolest looking fantasy maps ever.

They're great, only Harn maps can touch them. And yeah, the point of MERP was about D&D characters having D&D adventures in Middle Earth, with no pretense of trying to bring in Tolkien's themes or anything. It's dungeons/wilderness/city adventures, shooting magic missiles and killing monsters and looting silver pieces and earning XPs, just with Gondor and the Misty Mountains and Balrogs and Rivendell and Ents and Warg-Riders and the Corsairs of Umbar.

# ¿ Jun 8, 2015 21:44

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