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Mighty Crouton, if I’m reading your posts correctly: 1. You view Buddhism in general as involving: a. The claim that there is the possibility of an awakening / satori etc. b. The claim that that experience is or involves non dual awareness c. Such awareness being or fetishized as being supernatural; or metaphysical in a sense recognizable in the Western tradition (e.g., Christian, Platonic, Aristotelian etc.) d. The claim that the achievement of such awareness, without more, excludes the possibility of further suffering and is, accordingly, salvific standing alone 2. You view Alan Watts (and there may be other examples): a. As a Buddhist and representative of Buddhists b. As having had the sort of experience described above (the same type of experience referred to in Buddhism as awakening / satori etc.) c. As having suffered, such that point 1.d must be incorrect 3. You view yourself: a. As having had the sort of experience described above (the same type of experience referred to in Buddhism as awakening / satori etc.) b. As being able to discern (and having discerned) the absence of supernatural or metaphysical elements in that experience, meaning that point 1.c above must be incorrect Much could be said about these points, and I suspect people would take issue with many of the points in 1 and 2, with the responses varying depending on the relevant school, but without addressing all of this or getting into historical or doctrinal weeds, it may be helpful for your to consider that (i) 1 a and b are complicated and perspectives may differ by tradition: there are various dhyanas, and there are nirvana and stages of liberation (which may also involve or require or otherwise be bound up with personal development), as one example and (ii) 1 d is likely to be viewed as incorrect, depending on the particulars of the realization, unless the claim is that one has experienced full nirvana (is an arhant) or has achieved Buddhahood: Buddhism encompasses much more than merely meditation or its effects and among other things, skillful action (e.g., having compassion, following precepts, paramitas, the eightfold path, etc.) is typically seen as an essential element to liberation and the reduction of suffering (one’s own or that of others). If you are still looking to pursue this sort of path (a reduction of suffering as opposed to a quest for the transcendental), my suggestion would be to dig deeply within one or more Buddhist traditions, working with a local monastery or center rather than on your own. There’s been quite a lot of thought around how to live in a skillful way, the things that can hinder that sort of effort and the stages of practice and realization that can further it, and with that under your belt you may have a better sense of where you’re situated and what (if anything) might be missing or to come. Others in the thread are far more knowledgeable and articulate, and I defer to them entirely, so this is offered for what it's worth, which undoubtedly is: not much, unfortunately. eta: A link that may also be helpful, given the discussion: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.063.than.html etaa: VVVVV I really think it would be helpful for you to read the above link. Here, let me excerpt a bit quote:have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi at Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then, as Ven. Malunkyaputta was alone in seclusion, this train of thought arose in his awareness: "These positions that are undeclared, set aside, discarded by the Blessed One — 'The cosmos is eternal,' 'The cosmos is not eternal,' 'The cosmos is finite,' 'The cosmos is infinite,' 'The soul & the body are the same,' 'The soul is one thing and the body another,' 'After death a Tathagata exists,' 'After death a Tathagata does not exist,' 'After death a Tathagata both exists & does not exist,' 'After death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist' — I don't approve, I don't accept that the Blessed One has not declared them to me. I'll go ask the Blessed One about this matter. If he declares to me that 'The cosmos is eternal,' that 'The cosmos is not eternal,' that 'The cosmos is finite,' that 'The cosmos is infinite,' that 'The soul & the body are the same,' that 'The soul is one thing and the body another,' that 'After death a Tathagata exists,' that 'After death a Tathagata does not exist,' that 'After death a Tathagata both exists & does not exist,' or that 'After death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist,' then I will live the holy life under him. If he does not declare to me that 'The cosmos is eternal,'... or that 'After death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist,' then I will renounce the training and return to the lower life." Red Dad Redemption fucked around with this message at 04:36 on Jun 27, 2018 |
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Jun 26, 2018 21:57
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to quote two teachers in my tradition: “everything changes”; and “everything you encounter is your life” so from our perspective, no, it wouldn’t be about waking up to a different reality, but rather waking up, deeply, to the reality we’re actually in
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Jul 28, 2018 00:50
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to oversimplify a bit (and this may vary somewhat by tradition): it’s not a matter of you escaping to somewhere else - there is no (fixed or independent) you, no atman or jiva behind the curtain - there is nowhere else, no maya to be transcended, beyond which reality lurks eta: here is some material from the OP that may be helpful Quantumfate posted:But what IS buddhism? Red Dad Redemption fucked around with this message at 01:32 on Jul 31, 2018 |
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Jul 31, 2018 01:14
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Senju Kannon posted:honestly as much as i'd like to say my buddhism is influenced by takagi kenmyo the reality is i'm an anarchist first and buddhist second, and honestly that's why nembutsu practice is the only hope i have. it takes only the light of a single lamp to dispel the darkness of a thousand years 
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Aug 10, 2018 02:10
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adamarama posted:I'm just starting to explore Buddhism. The thread has been a great resource and starting point. I don't feel qualified to discuss anything yet, just looking for some initial advice. I'm drawn to rinzai zen as I like the focus on the koans and mental discipline. However, there doesn't seem to be much of a rinzai presence where I live. There is one group affiliated to one drop zen, which is led by roshi shodo harada. He seems legit - anyone know anything about this particular lineage? nothing about that lineage, but note: if you are in a major metropolitan area i could probably suggest soto zendos, and to the extent you wind up being drawn to some of the elements that are typically more prominent in rinzai, be aware that many soto zendos are part of or have been influenced by (in some cases heavily) sanbo kyodan, meaning that those rinzai elements will be present in some measure even in those nominally soto groups. also, the differences tend to be in degree rather than in kind when it comes to practices. both traditions have koans, meditation intensives etc. and finally, i think both are fundamentally nondualistic, which means the soto emphasis on zazen (both in sitting and in life) brings you to the same place as rinzai, and it is an amazing tradition, worth giving a shot if you are still feeling around best of luck to you
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Oct 31, 2018 23:09
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even in life there is both nonidentity and continuity: we are all on theseus’s ship. and it may help to consider that buddhism is not an annihilationist religion. some sources on this point are in the op perhaps on a slightly different point, but here’s a bit of dogen for you quote:“Firewood becomes ash. Ash cannot turn back into firewood again. However, we should not view ash as after and firewood as before. We should know that firewood dwells in the dharma position of firewood and it has its own before and after. Although there is before and after, past and future are cut off. Ash stays at the position of ash and it has its own before and after.” Red Dad Redemption fucked around with this message at 15:56 on Dec 13, 2018 |
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Dec 13, 2018 14:41
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Tias posted:Since y'all know a lot about the pitfalls of tibetan stuff, what is your opinion of Reggie Ray? Nude Hoxha Cameo posted:Reggie Ray was the teacher of Shadowstar, who wrote the OP of the old thread. I don't think he's posted in this one in some time (if ever), but I assume he'd be (if willing) an excellent source of information on Reggie Ray for anyone who might be interested.
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Mar 14, 2019 13:25
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Paramemetic posted:Looking at the Zen schools, if someone with some understanding could clarify: Soto Zen is extremely focused on just-sitting, with the contention that seeking after Satori is unnecessary and instead one should focus on achieving the present mindful-awareness state at all times; Rinzai uses more formal systems of progression and aims to make gradual progress demonstrated through koan, is this right? And so Soto Zen is a response to Rinzai's formalization? soto and rinzai have a complicated and intertwined background going back to the 800s AD (caodong and linji schools). there is, and historically has been, a difference in emphasis, but both schools include the use of koan practice, and it would be somewhat inaccurate to call one a reaction to the other. i'm personally more familiar with soto, but my impression is that, in addition to the different and more pronounced use of koan practice, you would find a greater emphasis on kenzho / satori in rinzai. soto is probably best understood as a purely nondual practice, and it is this context, manifesting and encompassing both the relative and the absolute in the concrete circumstances of life, that informs the perspective on what awakening really means: it is not, in the soto tradition, about a unique, or unusual or cathartic moment, though obviously any medititation practice is likely to include those. the practice is about seeing what is, ultimately, omnipresent. i would offer that the practice of soto zen as it exists in contemporary america is, or at least can be, very rewarding, especially if your work or family circumstnaces limit oter options. apart from taking precepts for those who desire to do so, there aren't structures of progression, and while there is a rich literature, it's essentially optional: the practice is just sitting; "just this is it". for an introduction, apart from visiting a local zen center, i might suggest: Opening the Hand of Thought (Uchiyama, Okumura) How to Cook Your Life (Uchiyama) (this book is amazing) Fukanzazengi (Dogen) (note this dates to the 1200s) Anything by Shohaku Okumura Genjokoan (Dogen, various translations, here is one; Realizing Genjokoan by Okumura is an excellent source / commentary) Two podcasts: Ancient Dragon Zen Gate (Leighton) and Sanshin Zen Center (Okumura). San francisco Zen Center also has an excellent podcast (I personally like the dharma talks by Ed Sattizhan and Paul Haller, but there are many excellent teachers there). dogen, the founder of the soto tradition in japan, produced a huge corpus of amazing, and somewhat inscrutable, works. starting with shobogenzo, they're well worth exploring if you wing up finding the tradition of interest. they are difficult for a number of reasons, most prominently including the attempt to put into words a nondual perspective, but also including his extensive knowledge of mahayana scriptures (and koan stories), which is a background assumption. so if you wind up digging deeper, then taking in some of the key sources can be helpful some snippets from genjokoan: As all things are buddha-dharma, there is delusion and realization, practice, birth and death, and there are buddhas and sentient beings. As the myriad things are without an abiding self, there is no delusion, no realization, no buddha, no sentient being, no birth and death. The buddha way is, basically, leaping clear of the many of the one; thus there are birth and death, delusion and realization, sentient beings and buddhas. Yet in attachment blossoms fall, and in aversion weeds spread. * * * To study the buddha way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be actualized by myriad things. When actualized by myriad things, your body and mind as well as the bodies and minds of others drop away. No trace of realization remains, and this no-trace continues endlessly. * * * Enlightenment is like the moon reflected on the water. The moon does not get wet, nor is the water broken. Although its light is wide and great, the moon is reflected even in a puddle an inch wide. The whole moon and the entire sky are reflected in dewdrops on the grass, or even in one drop of water. Enlightenment does not divide you, just as the moon does not break the water. You cannot hinder enlightenment, just as a drop of water does not hinder the moon in the sky. The depth of the drop is the height of the moon. Each reflection, however long of short its duration, manifests the vastness of the dewdrop, and realizes the limitlessness of the moonlight in the sky.
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Apr 7, 2019 19:05
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Nessus posted:Yeah, I didn't use the term very well. I mean more that popular Buddhism is mostly the pop-sci decaffeinated version rather than the real deal. It might be more prominent on the west coast, IDK. the key here is the word "popular", meaning perceived notions among non-participants, becuase, yes, MBSR certainly is not the same as the theravada / mahayana / vajrayana traditions. but in contrast, the lay practice in the us may have a lot to recommend it, though it will oviously depend heavily on the group and the tradition. speaking again from the soto perspective, the lay pracitce here is much more centered on skikantaza, the precepts, etc., and there is plenty of ritual for those who like that sort of thing; as compared to lay practice in japan which (to be glib and reductive) consists of (i) waiting 40-50 years; and (ii) contacting the priest when a funeral becomes necessary. i haven't looked into it, but i suspect there may be a similar dynamic in theravada traditions, where the lay practice in countries of origin may tend to be more centered around supporting monks and hoping for an improved rebirth.
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Apr 9, 2019 02:48
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matti posted:so sanbō kyōdan and specifically the kapleau lineage in the nordic countries. am i clear to have doubts about its authenticity? of the two options i have in my city this was least obviously a cult (diamond way lol). i’m not in this lineage, but I do subscribe to roshi kjolhede’s podcast (which is excellent), which led me a while back to the following that may be of some interest to you in connection with that question https://www.rzc.org/about/who-we-are/roshi-and-his-teachers/ personally i wouldn’t be too concerned, especially if you’re just looking for a practice group. what may be of more importance is to bear in mind that the practice is going to have something of the rinzai perspective, so, for example, there may be more use of koans as an object of prolonged concentration, and more focus on the event of kensho, than a soto group would have. all of that may be fine, but if you find it doesn’t work for you, especially if you want to focus on shikantaza, just bear in mind that it’s not the only path within zen
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Apr 13, 2019 17:30
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One other thing, which may be inapplicable if the monastery is not in Thailand: there have been a number of scandals over the years, partially, iirc, due to the open door tradition. Sex, inappropriate lifestyles, etc. Probably a small number relative to the number of monks / monasteries, possibly overblown. But worth bearing in mind as you evaluate.
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Apr 29, 2019 04:50
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My guess is that there would be a very context specific approach, with it being decidedly less chill (at least potentially) if the particulars are seen as falling on the wrong side of certain prohibitions (e.g., prostrations etc might be proscribed as veneration of idols); talking it over with a rabbi is a good recommendation.
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Apr 30, 2019 02:49
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Impermanent posted:Hi, thank you for answering my questions earlier, I have some more if that's ok: Although all of this has been covered very well in the (thoughtful and well expressed) posts above, I’ll add a few more comments, for whatever they’re worth: As to the Eucharist, if you’ll forgive something of a mixed metaphor, bhakti traditions can immensely powerful: the heart is, as it were, a spiritual organ. Christianity, while having contemplative elements, is in the main a bhakti tradition, and as others have pointed out, Mass expresses its essential nature, engaging all of the senses in doing so. The type of Buddhist practice I personally engage and participate in as about as far from that as can be imagined, but other schools of Buddhism do include devotional elements, as do, for example, various “Hindu” (forgive the use of that term, but the shorthand is convenient) and Islamic traditions. What you’ll need to work out, or at least consider, is whether that form of spirituality is authentically and essentially a part of your path, and if so, what its best expression is, in your case. (Possibly a form of a Pure Land? Or an alternate Christian denomination such as the Episcopal or Lutheran Church?) Or perhaps there is more than one. For some people it makes sense to confine spiritual practice to a single path (one deep hole, as the saying goes, makes a well, not many shallow ones) but not everyone is the same in that regard. To add slightly to the excellent comments above on rebirth: The concepts of identity and continuity, both in philosophy generally and in Buddhism specifically, are fascinating. Even in our own lifetimes, we’ve been more fulsomely replaced and changed than the ship of Theseus, and the truth of the matter is that nobody knows what happens afterward. So why not make use of the powerful tools Buddhism (or other traditions, if something else works for you) have on offer to reduce suffering in the here and now rather than focusing on interesting but ultimately inscrutable problems? And as a concluding point: Coming from Catholicism, it may be useful, as a kind of bridge, to cover some of the Christian contemplative tradition, if you haven’t already: the Cloud of Unknowing, the Dark Night, etc.
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Jun 19, 2019 02:11
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Yorkshire Pudding posted:Anyone read any of Brad Warner's stuff? I have a friend who is huge into Punk/Thrash/Metal/Whatever kind of music, and we had a long conversation about Buddhism and he recommended me to read his stuff. he’s probably best if you want to read dogen but you need a more colloquial version if you want to read dogen and think you can possibly stomach it without his often poetic composition being framed in terms of, e.g., Cheetos, then compare translations of shobogenzo (samples are online and for reasons i won’t bore you with there’s not a definitive best answer) and buy one or more if you don’t know who dogen is, then what you need to know about brad is that he’s from two strains of the soto zen tradition (nishijima and chino), soto being one of two primary flavors of zen, and zen being a form of Mahayana Buddhism. soto zen is an amazing tradition, but if you’re interested and just getting started I’d suggest you start with opening the hand of thought and tenzo kyokun, after which you might try realizing genjokoan
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Jun 28, 2019 04:45
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Keret posted:Regarding Dogenchat, my teacher suggested and loaned me this book, containing 9 of the 95 fascicles of Shobogenzo, some time ago and I spent the last month or so jumping headlong into it while on vacation, which was a profound experience. I found this volume to be a phenomenal delivery of the fascicles it includes, especially with regards to how Dogen so excellently defuses and subverts dualistic wording and framing. The annotation was extremely helpful and clear, as well. It's slim, but incredibly dense. Dogen's approach to teaching the dharma really resonates with me. that was one of the first books on dogen i read, and i had more or less the same reaction. especially if you got a lot out of uji, i would definitely suggest reading the entire shobogenzo, for which you might consider the nishijima and cross volumes, since they are annotated in a similar way. I might also suggest realizing genjokoan, or, for that matter, anything else by okumura; and from the mahayana background there are obviously many sources but this volume on hua yen may build helpfully on the insights you mention: https://www.amazon.com/Hua-Yen-Budd...ks%2C138&sr=1-2
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Jun 30, 2019 04:09
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Thirteen Orphans posted:Thanks, Paramemetic! You have the blessed trait of being both informative and insightful. Zen posters, what would someone who wants to practice do if they are unable to meditate? Could you elaborate somewhat on this? What do you think of as meditation (the technique and goal) and what is inhibiting it (in either or both respects)?
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Jul 7, 2019 15:00
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Thirteen Orphans posted:I was thinking of, say, meditation where you "watch" the breath, and other such techniques taught in your standard meditation classes derived from Zen. By inhibiting, and I should have been specific, I mean mental disorders that make the act of following the technique of meditation untenable. The situation that immediately comes to mind are those who suffer from mania. Meditation can trigger mania or make a manic episode much worse. What does the person do in a Zen perspective if they cannot practice this kind of meditation? My only other knowledge of Zen practice is Koan practice, and I don't know if you can divorce meditation from koan training. Find and read Fukanzazenji, which will begin to give you a sense of Shikantaza. It isn’t the type of meditation you’re describing. This won’t be complete by itself and you may also want to read Bendowa for more background. Mania may or may not inhibit Shikantaza, and obviously that isn’t a substitute for therapy or medical intervention so those may be needed first. Phone posting now, but I’ll try to come back and add more detail later. And as others have said, the paramitas etc are still essential parts of the path. Not sure whether koan practice would help but can’t get into detail until later. All of this is from a Soto perspective. e: Some additional notes: - There are a variety of Zen traditions and they approach practice differently. There are for example Vietnamese and Korean traditions that are widely practiced, chinese Chan and three primary traditions within Japanese Zen: Soto, Rinzai and Obaku. Within the Japanese schools, the differences are complex and depending on the zendo or lienage may be more formal or nominal than substantive. - Rinzai and Rinzai influenced lineages of Japanese Zen May use a form of breath based meditation, and may tend to promote a kind of absorption in koan practice, and satori / kensho orientation; these are very different from my own experience within Soto, though, again, it is going to vary depending on the lineage / zendo. Fukanzazengi and Bendowa (both available online) will begin to give you a sense of the Soto view and practice. - Soto koan practice has tended, in my experience, to be about meeting the minds of the koan writers and integrating what comes out of Zazen. So difficult perhaps with a rapid stream of thought but not necessarily impossible in and of itself. Shikantaza is not about stopping thought, but if there can be no settling in, the unmediated experience of the present in its fullness that is part of the practice may not be possible. You wouldn’t know for sure unless you tried, though, and what I’ve written absolutely will not give you a sense of what “just sitting” really means. Apart from the two essays I’ve mentioned, Opening the Hand of Thought is often mentioned as a good guide to understanding what it’s all about. And as noted above, talking to a teacher is probably your best bet. - Given the number of schools and the variation between and within them, others may have very different perspectives. Red Dad Redemption fucked around with this message at 20:48 on Jul 8, 2019 |
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Jul 8, 2019 15:48
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The diagrams here are consistent with the instructions I’ve received at Soto zendos: https://www.rzc.org/get-started-zen/how-to-sit/ There is a lot to say about everything else. Busy now but I’ll add more later. In the meantime, thanks so much to Herstory for the clarification / amplification. Therapeutic interventions and needs absolutely come before everything else. * * * * This won’t add much to an already great discussion, but a few more thoughts: - Soto-shu zazen instructions: https://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng/practice/zazen/howto/index.html - With the caveat that I have no personal monastic experience, I’ve found the Soto teachers I’ve worked with to be very practical and concrete in their orientation. My first one memorably compared zazen to making GBS threads, for example. So I don’t think you need to feel that a more austere practice or lifestyle would contribute more to your experience of Zen. And as others have suggested, while it’s obviously fine to have a meditation room if you really have space for that, and to want to create a serene space, there are potential pitfalls to thinking about things in this way. It’s a huge temptation for many of us, and perfectly understandable for the reasons you mention, but it can tend to lead, in an imperceptible sort of way, toward escapism, unfair burdens in relationships and an ineffective practice. Really, to the extent there can be said to be a goal, you want to find peace in full engagement with and in life rather than to attempt to find a space of repose apart from it. I’ve seen all of this and more happen to people with the best intentions, and though this may be far from your intent or situation, care is warranted. A video showing Brad Warner’s home zazen space, fwiw: https://youtu.be/e9RzOFY9cuc - I haven’t read the Eihei Shingi but that volume (or at least the Okumura / Leighton translation) includes the Tenzo Kyokun, which you absolutely should read in the form of the book How to Cook Your Life, with commentary by Uchiyama. That will help to flesh out the point above I think, and is a classic. (I’ve recommended it a few times upthread, apologies if this is redundant.) - Taigen Dan Leighton also worked with Okumura to translate the Eihei Koroku. If there are copies of that available at ADZG I’d grab one, though maybe sandwich the key Mahayana sutras between Shobogenzo and that volume. - I’d draw a distinction between garden variety Q&A and turning words. Trying to convey the ineffable strikes me as an extremely difficult endeavor, and I personally wouldn’t fault someone for having a greater facility with the former than the latter, though maybe it’s fair to say that the best teachers are strong in both areas. - I’ve had on and off problems with feet falling asleep. What I found helped were two things: elevating the knee of the foot falling asleep, which resulted in an unstable posture, and sitting on the forward edge of the zafu, which made for a firm foundation. Elevation and sitting full in the middle of the zafu didn’t work in my case. I use half lotus. Full lotus is an excellent meditation posture if you can manage it, but even after many years, I don’t find it comfortable for long sits. Obviously your experience may be very different, so experiment and find out what works for you. Red Dad Redemption fucked around with this message at 02:16 on Jul 11, 2019 |
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Jul 10, 2019 00:38
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Keret posted:The recommendation of How to Cook Your Life is especially helpful at the moment It’s a quick read; be sure to review all the footnotes and especially the commentary by Uchiyama.
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Jul 13, 2019 03:04
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Yiggy posted:https://www.amazon.com/Mahayana-Bud...la-451894190056 I’ve been wanting a broader perspective on Mahayana and this looks perfect. Thank you!!
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Sep 20, 2019 03:51
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Herstory Begins Now posted:This thread has really mellowed out in the 5 years since it was so-titled time for . . . rebirth (of the thread), perhaps?
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Sep 20, 2019 18:24
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Senior Scarybagels posted:Buddhist thread: How I learned to stop worrying and annihilate the self 
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Sep 21, 2019 18:08
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I’ll try to add more later today, but some quick thoughts: - having thoughts, sensations, emotions bubble up is very common, especially (but not only) in the beginning; a friend of mine who’s practiced for many years went through pain and panic at a recent sesshin with one of the most remarkable living teachers, for example. - your experience may or may not be in the normal range for this sort of thing and is worth talking over with Taigen, and/or a therapist if the latter is doable. - any kind of sustained or deep spiritual practice can be overwhelmingly powerful, again, especially at the beginning; give it some time to balance out a bit before taking big decisions, and if you feel yourself getting less grounded ease off the accelerator a bit. - over time, the effects of the practice tend to become better integrated; not the same thing, exactly, but a teacher from another tradition used to say that the first samadhi is only the beginning. - my first soto teacher had a long time partner, the teacher of my teacher was married, okumura is married; for most people, having an SO, with all that entails, is a part of the moon reflected in their dewdrop, which is fine. - I personally would love to go to eiheiji ; but bear in mind that the practice there is likely to be quite austere and disciplined (and with a heavier helping of chanting, ritual etc relative to US zen centers), as well as, for obvious reasons, more suffused with Japanese culture; I believe there may have been a documentary about eiheiji, so perhaps worth a youtube / netflix search. - Green Gulch, which has a work / practice orientation, might be worth checking out. I’ve mentioned uchiyama before, but he’s great for remaining connected to daily life and the people in it, just as it is / they are. e: If you'll be in Japan for long enough to squeeze Kyoto in, you *absolutely* should do it. It's replete with temples and other historic buildings (including the old imperial palace), and if you can you'd want (among many other things) to make stops at Kiyomizu-dera (though not a zen temple) and Fushimi Inari (though not Buddhist). e2: The results of practice, and this is and has been true for all spiritual/ contemplative traditions, are almost impossible to communicate. Dogen got close, but even controlling for lapse of time, and changes in idiom and language, his writing is still difficult to digest, and probably near impossible without independent experience of zazen. This, along with the profound changes that can come in the beginning, can make things a bit lonely because they absolutely aren’t relatable to or with most people. But that’s what the sangha is for, it’s ok and the right thing to do to take people as you find them, and in a way it’s not dissimilar to a deeply involving hobby: you may love and spend a lot of time making balsawood race cars, for example, but you wouldn’t regale people about it other than at an event with other hobbyists. Of course that example is a bit unfair, since woodworking need not be life changing in the same way as zen / the paramitas, but you get the idea. Red Dad Redemption fucked around with this message at 16:06 on Sep 28, 2019 |
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Sep 27, 2019 13:40
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Yiggy posted:The persistence of that one always blows my mind. A guy I know got roped into one of their cult cells and now goes around trying to help people get in touch with the divine feminine by joining communes. My wife works with a woman that actually got poisoned at that whole salad bar incident in the 80s. wanted to suggest this, if you haven’t seen it already https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7768848/ i’ve never met any of them, but i’m acquainted with someone who (while decidedly not a rashneeshee) was in india during the heyday of the pune ashram, and my guess is that it’s the old timers keeping the whole thing going. the paradigm for an ashram involves brahmacharya, but rashneesh combined a platter of spiritual practices with more or less the opposite attitude, so it was naturally very popular; possibly that’s still a factor, despite the extremely bizarre direction the oregon commune ultimately took i’m always amazed, as a general matter, with the prevalence of hucksters and abusers. adi da, with his weird fiji compound, is the one that stands out for me, though of course there are countless others Red Dad Redemption fucked around with this message at 17:38 on Oct 12, 2019 |
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Oct 12, 2019 17:31
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Keret posted:Kyoto and Eihei-ji are major focal points of my trip, so I'll definitely do this! I will be in Kyoto for a full week over the New Year's holidays. A friend in the sangha also suggested contacting Saiho-ji (the moss temple) about visiting, which I plan to do as well. New year’s is one of the best times to visit! Perhaps a bit off topic, but I hope you’ll post reflections when you get back.
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Oct 12, 2019 18:01
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e: see my post immediately below
Red Dad Redemption fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Oct 28, 2019 |
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Oct 26, 2019 20:54
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e: a tip of the hat to long time troll ffffffffffff, previously appearing in this thread as the now permabanned obamacareshugsquad (and renamed tautologicus and most recently the worst thing is) whose previous . . . contributions . . . to this thread can be found here: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3548558&userid=205163 he has since been re-permabanned, but before that he managed to prompt a a rather derisive set of replies from me before i realized who he was. not exactly my finest moment apologies to all, and to ffffffffff happy trolling, wherever you may go from here Red Dad Redemption fucked around with this message at 23:21 on Oct 28, 2019 |
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Oct 26, 2019 21:18
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e: see my immediately preceding post
Red Dad Redemption fucked around with this message at 23:22 on Oct 28, 2019 |
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Oct 26, 2019 21:36
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quote is not edit 
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Oct 28, 2019 23:22
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Keret posted:As far as enlightenment is concerned, I will admit that I don't know what that is actually. Lately, as I see it based mostly on what Uchiyama-roshi and others in the Soto Zen tradition have said, "enlightenment" is an active process that is literally the practice of Buddhism as life. For a long time I practiced thinking that I should "reach" enlightenment, but I think that that misses the point actually. Because of what I mentioned above, why should I think that this tiny conditioned self can ever become enlightened? Instead, I think the importance lies in realizing that this little self is arbitrary and instead, practice is a universal process that has very little to do with the desires and thoughts of this individual at this point in time. That's also why, when one person sits zazen for even a short time, all of reality is awake and practicing simultaneously. Actually, that's already happening, but enlightenment is waving the fan and realizing this as active practice. So much comes to mind reading this, but expressing it is so vexingly difficult. It's one of the reasons Uchiyama, who is so clear and direct, Dogen, who is so allusive and poetic, and Okumura, who manages to part the veils of language, culture and time, in some measure, when it comes to Dogen, are each so gratifying to read. This may sound a tad daunting, and counterintuitive in a tradition founded on a special transmission outside the scriptures, but I think you would enjoy, and have the capacty to glean a lot from, a course of reading along the following lines: (1) Shobogenzo (not Shasta Abbey, but pick a translation otherwise. I prefer Kaz's for debatable reasons that I won't bore you with); (2) some background scriptures / sources such as the Diamond, Vimalakirti, Lankavatara, Lotus and Heart Sutras, The Fundamental Wisdom of the Middle Way or something similar, something on Hua Yen, the Platform Sutra and The Teachings of Huang Po; (3) Eihei Koroku (Taigen's); and (4) secondary literature on Shobogenzo (mostly Okumura). e: Shobogenzo would be the place to start and to conclude. It's amazing, and I wouldn't wait before reading it, certainly not for so much other reading, but the other sources (if you haven't read them already) will broaden your perspective on both Shobogenzo and the Soto / Zen tradition. A few random excerpts, of which you're likely already well aware: From Fukanzazengi: "[P]ut aside the intellectual practice of investigating words and chasing phrases, and learn to take the backward step that turns the light and shines it inward. Body and mind of themselves will drop away, and your original face will manifest. If you want to attain suchness, practice suchness immediately. . . . The zazen I speak of is not meditation practice. It is simply the Dharma gate of joyful ease, the practice-realization of totally culminated enlightenment. It is the koan realized, traps and snares can never reach it." From Genjokoan: "Although its light is wide and great, the moon is reflected even in a puddle an inch wide. The whole moon and the entire sky are reflected in dewdrops on the grass, or even in one drop of water. . . . The depth of the drop is the height of the moon. Each reflection, however long or short its duration, manifests the vastness of the dewdrop, and realizes the limitlessness of the moonlight in the sky." quote:Finally, with regards to rebirth, I think that Caufman's video from Thich Nhat Hanh is a beautiful way of looking at it and I am thankful that it was linked. Rebirth has always been a thorn in my side, so to speak, in terms of being able to vibe with Buddhism. For a long time, I more or less just pretended that it didn't exist and focused on everything else. But, eventually I realized that without knowing it, what I had thought was rebirth was actually just a western ego-centric idea of reincarnation that I brought with me, masquerading as rebirth which is why it seemed so out of place in Buddhism. I don't think we can say that people are lying about rebirth to make people feel okay, though. In my experience, I think that it's more of a matter of perspective and phrasing. When we think about rebirth, we naturally assume we are talking about something which happens when this body and mind "die" at the end of our lives. But that's actually a totally arbitrary decision we're making. I don't think that moment, whatever it will be, is actually any different from what is happening right now. And in fact, who is it that is dying anyway? Or being reborn, for that matter. To me, rebirth is right now, every moment. It's already happening, at least from the provisional, conditioned view of things. From Genjokoan (and a lecture by Okumura that I'll link below): "Firewood becomes ash. Ash cannot turn back into firewood again. However, we should not view ash as after and firewood as before. We should know that firewood dwells in the dharma position of firewood and it has its own before and after. Although there is before and after, past and future are cut off. Ash stays at the position of ash and it has its own before and after. As firewood never becomes firewood again after it is burned and becomes ash, after person dies, there is no return to living. However, in buddha dharma, it is a never-changing tradition not to say that life becomes death. Therefore we call it no-arising. It is the laid-down way of buddha's turning the dharma wheel not to say that death becomes life. Therefore, we call it no-perishing. Life is a position at one time; death is also a position at one time. For instance, this is like winter and spring. We don't think that winter becomes spring, and we don't say that spring becomes summer." http://thezensite.com/ZenTeachings/Dogen_Teachings/Genjokoan_Okumara.htm e2: The ADZG podcast teishos have become such a regular part of my week (and I value them so much) that I almost feel like a remote sangha member. You're very lucky to be able to practice there! e3: Did you make it to Kyoto? If yes, did you wind up going to kiyomizu dera or fushimi inari? And did you manage to eat any soba on New Year’s Eve? Red Dad Redemption fucked around with this message at 15:27 on Jan 18, 2020 |
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Jan 18, 2020 07:46
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Yorkshire Pudding posted:Funnily enough, that is the only official Buddhist text I have ever read. I've had a small pocket copy in my bag since college. Maybe I'll just stick to that. Bear in mind that the development in Mahayana is very substantial; on that front, I'd refer back to an earlier suggestion by Yiggy, which is an excellent resource: Yiggy posted:One of the best resources on Mahayana I've come across is Paul Williams Mahayana Buddhism the Doctrinal Foundations and here is a link to the second edition http://www.ahandfulofleaves.org/documents/Mahayana%20Buddhism_Williams.pdf
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Jan 28, 2020 08:12
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Yiggy posted:For the curious student of Buddhism it can be easier to work backwards from the part of the tradition you’re most interested in. For the zen Buddhist the platform sutra of the sixth patriarch is cannon but not for the theravadin. This is so very true of zen.
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Feb 2, 2020 18:10
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Herstory Begins Now posted:As a means of maintaining interest it's good, but I think a lot of people interested in zen would do well to read a much wider variety of material. It's also a remarkably expedient way to clear up any misconceptions about whether zen is utterly grounded in an extremely communally conscious ethical perspective or not. Which does seem to be an important thing to grasp quickly. I agree with this completely; it's just that the statement was around the way in for someone new and the notion that it can be helpful to start with the tradition one is interested in and work backwards, rather than the idea that you wouldn't expand to understand the broader context and shared commitments. In other words it was about what order to go in, not the content to cover. And on that front, given the very substantial development in Mahayana (both relative to what preceded it and within various traditions), the huge overall volume of materials and the practical need to provide some initial orientation, if I were just joining a zendo, I personally would start with some brief materials on Soto specifically, then proceed to an overview of the early sutras and the development of Mahayana, then come back to a deeper dive within Soto. (A terrible analogy, but in part for reasons similar to why someone in RCIA would learn about Christianity before taking in the unmodified Judaic tradition.) I do think the lack of early attention to the precepts and paramitas is (or can be) an issue and think, irrespective of timing for Jukai, that it would be good to focus on them as well at an early point. So, again for Soto, my personal route would be along the lines of: - Fukanzazenji, Bendowa, Genjokoan - One or more of: Opening the Hand of Thought, Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind, Taking the Path of Zen - What the Buddha Taught - Mahayana Buddhism, the Doctrinal Foundations - Possibly the recent Circle of the Way (I didn't love it, but it's a practical overview) - Possibly The Heart of Dogen's Shobogenzo (or maybe the Shobogenzo as a whole) - Selected Mahayana Sutras, Commentaries, Texts, etc, including: the Diamond, Vimalakirti, Lankavatara, Lotus and Heart Sutras, The Fundamental Wisdom of the Middle Way or something similar, the Avatamsaka Sutra, and the Platform Sutra - The Dhammapada, In the Buddha's Words - Shobogenzo (if not already read), related commentaries - Eihei Koroku - Possibly Eihei Shingi - The Gateless Gate - Materials from other traditions, other Zen materials etc. There's a good basic list in the formation guide published by SZBA Not everyone's cup of tea, perhaps, and you might still consider that too focused on Zen / Soto, but that would be my initial approach, I think. Red Dad Redemption fucked around with this message at 19:23 on Feb 8, 2020 |
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Feb 6, 2020 04:35
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