|
Mexcillent posted:Ethan Skemp also had a hand in that book, but I'm not sure who wrote that sidebar. Malcolm wrote the first (good) one, and Ethan Skemp wrote the other one. He meant well, I am told, but as I understand it he was extremely uncomfortable with the topic, and I've heard his approach to dealing with sensitive issues in this case described as "Okay! Gonna be sensitive now! Gotta be sensitive! Sensitive! RAAAAAAAAGH!" and then running at the topic screaming with his eyes shut.
|
#
?
May 31, 2013 04:03
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 29, 2024 01:18 |
|
|
The Lunars book was more sophisticated than it's often given credit for, but "civilization is bad" is a very inapt way of expressing it. It's natural for the Dragon-Blooded and their allies to do the "civilization" talk because that evokes the moral framework imperialists have always operated within. Their victims tend to see themselves as just as civilized - which I think was an advantage of the 2e treatment.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2013 04:03
|
|
|
Thesaurasaurus posted:There is a difference between "The Realm is corrupt and dissolute, and its time is at hand to make way for something better" and "Everyone should go back to living in caves, wiping their asses with their hands, and warring with their neighbors over basic necessities because CIVILIZATION MAKES YOU WEAK". If I was playing Desus Ex I'd want a Tracer Tong option on the table too.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2013 04:03
|
|
|
Oligopsony posted:The Lunars book was more sophisticated than it's often given credit for, but "civilization is bad" is a very inapt way of expressing it. It's natural for the Dragon-Blooded and their allies to do the "civilization" talk because that evokes the moral framework imperialists have always operated within. Their victims tend to see themselves as just as civilized - which I think was an advantage of the 2e treatment. I think you could describe the take on Lunars in 3e by saying "Okay, we're doing Lunars from 1e again; we just won't assume they actually believe the stuff they say themselves."
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2013 04:04
|
|
|
 Another gem from 1e Lunars. This one is actually pretty cool i m o. Lunar ingenuity showing right through. Shame it wasn't touched on in 2e. Strength of Many fucked around with this message at 04:10 on May 31, 2013 |
|
#
?
May 31, 2013 04:05
|
|
|
Rand Brittain posted:I think you could describe the take on Lunars in 3e by saying "Okay, we're doing Lunars from 1e again; we just won't assume they actually believe the stuff they say themselves."
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2013 04:05
|
|
|
Oligopsony posted:What's the current policy on the, uh, other stuff. I could not say except that clearly the way they did it in 1e didn't work. So probably something different!
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2013 04:06
|
|
|
Initially I liked the Thousand Streams River, but over the years I don't think that it helped 2e's huge self-awareness/motonic physics problem. I also never really got the necessity of the Solar Mate background.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2013 04:11
|
|
|
Mexcillent posted:I also never really got the necessity of the Solar Mate background. That's going to be removed completely, they said.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2013 04:12
|
|
|
Mexcillent posted:Initially I liked the Thousand Streams River, but over the years I don't think that it helped 2e's huge self-awareness/motonic physics problem. Bedlamdan posted:That's going to be removed completely, they said. THANK loving GOD e: oh hey, more surprisingly nuanced 1e Lunar sidebars 
Strength of Many fucked around with this message at 04:15 on May 31, 2013 |
|
#
?
May 31, 2013 04:13
|
|
|
Mexcillent posted:The same one that recommended you use different weapons to differentiate your lunars? I mean Barbarian Warriors?
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2013 04:13
|
|
|
Mexcillent posted:Initially I liked the Thousand Streams River, but over the years I don't think that it helped 2e's huge self-awareness/motonic physics problem. Solar Mate was a desperate attempt to try and fit Lunars into the setting and make it feel like they belonged there when they very obviously didn't. It says a lot that they initially considered removing Lunars all together from Third Edition.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2013 04:15
|
|
|
1st edition tried way too hard to literally enforce the whole 'Lunars are Barbarians' stereotype to the point where they were nonsensically penalized for not acting like barbarians through mechanical means. 2nd edition then tried it the other way, making them social engineers whose purpose was to write new civilizations instead of rejecting civilization. For third I'm hoping for something with the aesthetics of the 1st but the freedom and ingenuity of the 2nd. I think one of the biggest failings of the 1st edition Lunars (other than all of their mechanics, period) was that they were portrayed as just being not smart for the most part. They had some cool sidebars like the Songlines one, but then it was pretty much invalidated by them being so unable to not be big dumb luddites.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2013 04:15
|
|
|
Asimo posted:It's important to remember that Lunars were originally intended to be a purely antagonist splat, wyld-tainted monsters sort of in the same way that Abyssals were death-tainted genocidal maniacs. But both of those got toned down quite a bit midway through 1e's development when it was decided to let all the Exalted types be playable, and while the Abyssals sort of kept their theme (such as it was) the Lunars were really left flailing with no real niche or specialty. And an awful lot of front-loaded shapeshifting charms necessary for being Lunars at all. And then Knacks just doing it again the same way.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2013 04:15
|
|
|
Denim Avenger posted:Solar Mate was a desperate attempt to try and fit Lunars into the setting and make it feel like they belonged there when they very obviously didn't. How do Lunars not fit into Exalted? I mean...Enkidu.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2013 04:16
|
|
|
Mexcillent posted:And an awful lot of front-loaded shapeshifting charms necessary for being Lunars at all. And then Knacks just doing it again the same way. No, Knacks did it better and provided a (mostly) functional sub-system. If we're going to complain about splat sub systems being done poorly in 2e, then look no further than Astrology.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2013 04:17
|
|
|
Denim Avenger posted:Solar Mate was a desperate attempt to try and fit Lunars into the setting and make it feel like they belonged there when they very obviously didn't. It says a lot that they initially considered removing Lunars all together from Third Edition.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2013 04:17
|
|
|
Denim Avenger posted:Solar Mate was a desperate attempt to try and fit Lunars into the setting and make it feel like they belonged there when they very obviously didn't. It says a lot that they initially considered removing Lunars all together from Third Edition. Enkidu, Nanmen, Son Gokuu, various shinto spirits (Kitsune should be an OBVIOUS one), etc etc etc. Nessus posted:What's funny to me is that in the one game I was in where the Solar Mate trait came up, it was used unfailingly and unerringly for the purpose of the Lunar bailing the Solar out of whatever dumb poo poo he'd gotten up to that time. That said, won't be missed. Everyone always underestimates how loving cheesy the Solar Bond charms were in Glories: Luna. A super cheap way of getting free successes on ANY kind of roll thanks to the vague nature of Solar Bond, that can be restocked through stunting, and does not apply to dice caps from charms? Its really gross. I've been abusing it in one side game, and a friend abused it extensively in a past game with a switchklaive using Lunar. Strength of Many fucked around with this message at 04:21 on May 31, 2013 |
|
#
?
May 31, 2013 04:17
|
|
|
Bedlamdan posted:That's going to be removed completely, they said. No it's not. They said that it will not have the same mechanics (or possibly no mechanics), but it will still exist. They have said that it is something that was a result of how Lunars were made instead of being a demand made by UCS.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2013 04:19
|
|
|
Yeah. Lunars are a great concept. I mean even the Lunars I played with the not so great powers sets (I didn't like Knacks, but I think that's because they gave me too much to manage) were a blast. Lunars own conceptually, and E3 sounds pretty good on the Lunar front. Hopefully there won't be secret awful kinky sex that shows up in their book.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2013 04:20
|
|
|
Mexcillent posted:How do Lunars not fit into Exalted? I mean...Enkidu. The archetype of Enkidu/Wild man in the wastes etc fits the sort of setting Exalted is like a glove. The thing is, Lunars as a splat had a hard time fitting into the Exalted setting specifically, since their role was written as "Ran off to the edge of the world, do nothing of consequence for thousands of years." So they've tried multiple fixes for this issue, and 3E seems to be aiming for "Expand the map, include several lunar-run areas, make them historically active and rewrite the history so they have done and still do things."
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2013 04:21
|
|
|
Mexcillent posted:How do Lunars not fit into Exalted? I mean...Enkidu. I don't mean there's no thematic place for them, but they weren't originally planned to be an Exalt until someone cynically decided to try and marry the Werewolf and Exalted fan base.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2013 04:21
|
|
|
I always liked Solar Mate, because I'm a sucker for anything with plot hooks. Heck, I'd make Lunar Mate a background for Solars, Abyssals, and Infernals. That said, I can see why people disliked it.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2013 04:21
|
|
|
Denim Avenger posted:Solar Mate was a desperate attempt to try and fit Lunars into the setting and make it feel like they belonged there when they very obviously didn't. It says a lot that they initially considered removing Lunars all together from Third Edition.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2013 04:22
|
|
|
Denim Avenger posted:I don't mean there's no thematic place for them, but they weren't originally planned to be an Exalt until someone cynically decided to try and marry the Werewolf and Exalted fan base. Werewolf owns, Exalted (kind of) owns. I don't see the problem. I mean, are you upset about the Vampire -> Abyssal connection, or the Imbued -> Solar or Mages -> Sidereals thing? The whole thing was a "cynical" ploy and really hasn't gone much beyond it. It's just a weird attitude to have about a part of a game.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2013 04:23
|
|
|
Denim Avenger posted:Solar Mate was a desperate attempt to try and fit Lunars into the setting and make it feel like they belonged there when they very obviously didn't. It says a lot that they initially considered removing Lunars all together from Third Edition.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2013 04:24
|
|
|
Denim Avenger posted:I don't mean there's no thematic place for them, but they weren't originally planned to be an Exalt until someone cynically decided to try and marry the Werewolf and Exalted fan base. Ah. Thank you for being more specific. Yeah there was a lot of that. But Abyssals and Alchemicals were never really slated to be PC splats either, and yet were made into them. Then came Infernals... Man, I really miss 1e Infernals, by comparison.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2013 04:25
|
|
|
Strength of Many posted:Man, I really miss 1e Infernals, by comparison. Were there 1e Infernals? Was that in Blood and Salt or something?
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2013 04:25
|
|
|
Asimo posted:Honestly, I'm not sure I'd disagree with the removal either. Pretty much all the existing canonical Lunars could probably work just as well as some other Exalt type (probably Solar or Dragon Blooded, but still) and you really only have to look at an NPC like, say, the Bull of the North to see this in action. A barbarian warlord on the edge of creation who's a major threat to the "civilized" nations and the great empire, with an animal name? And... a Solar. Yeah. The Lunars (in 1e and 2e) were basically completely accessory to the theme... you couldn't excise the Solars or the Dragon-Blooded or even the Abyssals or Sidereals without drastically changing the setting, but you could do the same to the Lunars and not really feel the lack. 2e tried to fix things with the civilization-building aspect, but it was still running off 1e's setting inertia and kind of just muddled things more than it solved, sadly. My biggest concern is they'll try to give them gravity and impact within the setting by making the Silver Pact or some similar organization, become hyper organized force with a lot/most/all of the Lunars behind it as one organization or entity. And that... runs really hard against their huge themes of individualism. And in turn, Luna herself.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2013 04:27
|
|
|
Mexcillent posted:Werewolf owns, Exalted (kind of) owns. I don't see the problem. I mean, are you upset about the Vampire -> Abyssal connection, or the Imbued -> Solar or Mages -> Sidereals thing? The whole thing was a "cynical" ploy and really hasn't gone much beyond it. Calm down, you're missing my point. Lunar were a very late addition to the game, they were originally meant to be Fair Folk servants, in no way Exalted. But they changed that plan to try and bring Werewolf fans in. The problem is that by that point the setting was pretty much built and there wasn't room for a bunch of Super Shapeshifters in Creation without them doing absolutely nothing for two thousand years. The end result was Lunars ended up being written as a bunch of chumps who live in mortal fear of a Sidereal taking their head off instead of dynamic shapeshifting Heroes. That's my issue with them. I hope in Third Edition they find a way to properly work them into the setting where they feel like they matter instead of being a cheap marketing ploy.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2013 04:27
|
|
|
Strength of Many posted:My biggest concern is they'll try to give them gravity and impact within the setting by making the Silver Pact or some similar organization, become hyper organized force with a lot/most/all of the Lunars behind it as one organization or entity. The Silver Pact and Renown for Lunars was some cynical crap. I can get on board with that complaint. Hoping there isn't a Silver Pact in 3e.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2013 04:28
|
|
|
Mexcillent posted:Were there 1e Infernals? Was that in Blood and Salt or something? Games of Divinity iirc. They were corrupted Exalted. Primarily Solars, but there were others too, and the corruption remained on some of the shards that were imprisoned in the Jade Prison as an optional plot hook for storytellers. Mind you, they pre-dated the Akuma thing introduced later with the Broken Winged Crane fluff.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2013 04:30
|
|
|
Mexcillent posted:The Silver Pact and Renown for Lunars was some cynical crap. I can get on board with that complaint. Hoping there isn't a Silver Pact in 3e. Maybe now that Lunars own actual Kingdoms up to and including Australia, they can be organized geographically instead of ideological factions that made sense at first, but mostly fell apart and stopped making sense when you tried to fit them into the game world or look at them too closely.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2013 04:31
|
|
|
Mexcillent posted:The Silver Pact and Renown for Lunars was some cynical crap. I can get on board with that complaint. Hoping there isn't a Silver Pact in 3e. I disagree. They had a functional society that worked for a bunch of powerful Elders still kicking around with no formal institution and all of them wanting to pursue their own goals. It worked well for Lunar interactions with each other. Renown was handled better in 2e, if even more incredibly pointless to track than it was in 1e.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2013 04:31
|
|
|
MiltonSlavemasta posted:Maybe now that Lunars own actual Kingdoms up to and including Australia, they can be organized geographically instead of ideological factions that made sense at first, but mostly fell apart and stopped making sense when you tried to fit them into the game world or look at them too closely. I think organizing them into the equivalent of demigod football teams is kind of retarded and, again, goes against their overt theme of being a 'rugged individual survivor' cutting out their own slice of the world for themselves. e: come to think of it, it would have helped give them a place and a cause if they didn't go out of their way to castrate Fair Folk into being worthless antagonists. At least then there'd be an excuse for why Lunars are knee-deep in the Wyld all the time besides hiding from Sidereals.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2013 04:33
|
|
|
Strength of Many posted:I disagree. They had a functional society that worked for a bunch of powerful Elders still kicking around with no formal institution and all of them wanting to pursue their own goals. It worked well for Lunar interactions with each other. I can see the value of that but frankly it always did feel super constricting and a leftover from Werewolf in the worst way. Frankly, I'd be really happy with Lunar regional powers and Lunar frontiers against the Realm and no larger organizations than that.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2013 04:34
|
|
|
Mexcillent posted:I can see the value of that but frankly it always did feel super constricting and a leftover from Werewolf in the worst way. Frankly, I'd be really happy with Lunar regional powers and Lunar frontiers against the Realm and no larger organizations than that. Maybe individual Lunars, sure. But then you'd probably get Lunars who support the continued existence of the Realm because they aren't in a position to replace and fix all that infrastructure in such a short (and violent) period of time that it'd take when over throwing them. Plus you know, thousands of years of indoctrination of the masses and many numerous Gods also supporting the current status quo is hard to deal with even after you've removed the Scarlet Dynasty.... and that's before the Sidereals are involved. I suppose that's why they're brewing up this huge goofy 'war against heaven' thing.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2013 04:36
|
|
|
Mexcillent posted:I can see the value of that but frankly it always did feel super constricting and a leftover from Werewolf in the worst way. Frankly, I'd be really happy with Lunar regional powers and Lunar frontiers against the Realm and no larger organizations than that. At least until some enterprising heroes band together to create the Joint Dictatorship of-
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2013 04:36
|
|
|
Attorney at Funk posted:At least until some enterprising heroes band together to create the Joint Dictatorship of- For this purpose exactly and explicitly. And I see pro-Imperial Lunars as being an interesting complication (I don't know how many there would be but).
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2013 04:37
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 29, 2024 01:18 |
|
|
Mexcillent posted:For this purpose exactly and explicitly. And I see pro-Imperial Lunars as being an interesting complication (I don't know how many there would be but). Who knows? Again, they've always been HUGE STRONG INDIVIDUALS WHO DO THEIR OWN THING. Its part of why they uh, never really accomplished anything big in Creation and instead nibbled at the edges while staying constantly embattled by their (now laughable) Fair Folk menace. I think part of the problem with old Lunars is they share a lot of themes with Solars in terms of individual motivation, albeit through the lenses of Stewardship, but none of the design space in Creation by being written into the literal corners.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2013 04:41
|
|