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PrinceRandom posted:I'm dumb. I was thinking spirit tattoos and dream-walking. Which now that I think on, could be very cool powers to explore further. I'm an idiot who hasn't read the source material in a long time. I blame my tablet breaking for that... Well.. not that i'm advocating torrenting pdfs... but pdfs exist. Just saying. And yeah, they didn't do nearly enough with either of those. Some of the cool 'dream-walking' esque stuff they do have is all tied directly to the Wyld. I can't think of a single player who actually took Wyld keyword charms in my predominately Lunar games, for that matter, even after we did gently caress around with Fey and in some freeholds. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 31, 2013 07:40
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Strength of Many posted:That's.. how barbarians were defined in 2e?? So yes i'm hoping they stick with that. 'You aren't from the Realm so you are a savage.' For the most part, yes. But I believe that things will be simplified a bit by lumping relatively similar cultures together rather than everything being from the Realm's or just any given civilization's perspective. Contrasting the Realm and Nexus and Chiaroscuro against the Linowan or whatever the new place full of ziggurats is I can't recall the name of. To play into the cachet of fur bikini Conan, which is what the word "barbarian" is most often used to conjure up, and then to show that, no, he comes from a thriving city that just happens to look especially strange to foreigners from the Realm and its closest neighbors. He dresses like that because it's the style where he comes from. The reason it's somehow more exotic than sheer silk robes or a Lookshyan helot-servant's uniform is because you're just more blatantly racist the more different things are from your sensibilities. A more widespread, realistic use of the idea of "barbarian" would dilute it as an icon, making it harder to bring its subversion to the fore and harder to implement as a theme in the books without getting really repetitive.
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May 31, 2013 08:16
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Plague of Hats posted:For the most part, yes. But I believe that things will be simplified a bit by lumping relatively similar cultures together rather than everything being from the Realm's or just any given civilization's perspective. Contrasting the Realm and Nexus and Chiaroscuro against the Linowan or whatever the new place full of ziggurats is I can't recall the name of. To play into the cachet of fur bikini Conan, which is what the word "barbarian" is most often used to conjure up, and then to show that, no, he comes from a thriving city that just happens to look especially strange to foreigners from the Realm and its closest neighbors. He dresses like that because it's the style where he comes from. The reason it's somehow more exotic than sheer silk robes or a Lookshyan helot-servant's uniform is because you're just more blatantly racist the more different things are from your sensibilities. Y'all do have a boner for meeting trope quotas, I must admit.
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May 31, 2013 08:29
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Plague of Hats posted:A more widespread, realistic use of the idea of "barbarian" would dilute it as an icon, making it harder to bring its subversion to the fore and harder to implement as a theme in the books without getting really repetitive. For the curious (and I only knew this guy from a course in historiography): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Khaldun
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May 31, 2013 08:31
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Strength of Many posted:Y'all do have a boner for meeting trope quotas, I must admit. ... Is it sad that that is how I found Exalted, on TVTropes? I think reading the length of the Exalted entries qualifies as reading a post "The Firm" John Grisham novel.
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May 31, 2013 08:32
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PrinceRandom posted:... Is it sad that that is how I found Exalted, on TVTropes? I think reading the length of the Exalted entries qualifies as reading a post "The Firm" John Grisham novel. false edit: Though I hear some people use TV tropes to look for 'something like this thing I just saw/read/watched/consumed and liked' which would seem to be a benign use of all this sperg-labor.
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May 31, 2013 08:32
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Nessus posted:This actually sounds a lot like ibn Khaldun's theory on the cycles of civilizations (super short summary: a society flourishes, becomes great, becomes decadent, gets knocked over by the next society, who flourish, become great...) although it would seem he, well, did in fact use the term barbarian, or at least a term translated as such. Is it even sadder that I know of this theory, (and of Ibn Khaldun) because of GURPS Infinite Worlds? Edit: Though they ultimately use Oswald Spengler's theory (presented in The Decline of the West for their "Civilization as Biology" side-bar. PrinceRandom fucked around with this message at 08:37 on May 31, 2013 |
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May 31, 2013 08:34
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PrinceRandom posted:Is it even sadder that I know of this theory, (and of Ibn Khaldun) because of GURPS Infinite Worlds? e: Do they present Spengler as some kind of Truth or as a model that can be used to do thumbnail sketches of alternate history stuff for gaming purposes? I remember getting annoyed at the three or four incidents of Austrian economics being 'new and exciting' in IW2, although IW1's love of Howard Scott in Gernsback made up for it.
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May 31, 2013 08:36
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Nessus posted:GURPSession. They basically said that presenting the development of civilizations as a biological process is a frequent tool of historians "From Ibn Khaldun to Malthus," but that Spengler is the "best-known" theorist. They also note that "although almost no modern historians take Spengler seriously, his model makes a great frame for Alternative Histories," and in typical GURPS fashion they cite a series that use Spenglerian concepts in their frame. It's presented along with a lot of other theories in the "If you want to make your own Alternative Earths here are some theories that try and explain how history happens to make your worlds sound a little better than a Harry Turtledove Novel" chapter. Faux Edit: I also noticed while reading the AW2 (IW2) alt.histories that most of the "progressing" nations seemed to have a capital in Vienna where some bold new economics were being discussed... PrinceRandom fucked around with this message at 09:02 on May 31, 2013 |
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May 31, 2013 09:00
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This is going loving way over my head. Can someone, without referencing mid-20th Century philosophers, tell me what the differences are between a Lunar and a Solar beyond one can turn into a dinosaur and the other shines like the Sun?
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May 31, 2013 09:12
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Fightest posted:This is going loving way over my head. Can someone, without referencing mid-20th Century philosophers, tell me what the differences are between a Lunar and a Solar beyond one can turn into a dinosaur and the other shines like the Sun? Gilgamesh to Enkidu, idiot monk to Son Gokuu, etc etc etc.
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May 31, 2013 09:14
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Fightest posted:This is going loving way over my head. Can someone, without referencing mid-20th Century philosophers, tell me what the differences are between a Lunar and a Solar beyond one can turn into a dinosaur and the other shines like the Sun? Lunars are 50% more likely to wear fur bikinis  Their charms are based off Attributes, not Abilities (unless I'm loving up my naming scheme again, I always do that with WW's system). This means that instead of being good at composing epic poetry or something fancy like that, your dude is really good at getting buff or smart or pretty to look at. I just hope their charm trees aren't as much of a mess as in 2e. Alternatively, they aren't a blank slate in that Lunars have been around for all of the Second Age and have been, from the previews and hints we've gotten, actively fighting the Realm at its edges, and winning in enough situations to be relevant, so you have a plot architecture kind of set up already if you're running a Lunar game and don't want to do something else. There also may be some relatively major Lunar organization(s) that do stuff, so another lazy plot hooking device for GMs. And you get some pretty sweet tribal tattoos if those are coming back. Also, they built their own Loom of Fate for one portion of their territory. That's kind of nifty. Honestly, I felt that, confusing charm cascades aside, 2e Lunars were executed relatively well and felt plenty different from other types to me. I understand why people have their reservations about Lunars' place in games, and they are pretty much completely removable from 2e without much impact unless your game hinges on Lunars already for some reason. That, and the whole implied "has sex with animals to create armies" thing were the biggest complaints I recall.
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May 31, 2013 09:38
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Strength of Many posted:Y'all do have a boner for meeting trope quotas, I must admit. Well, it IS one of the things the line hasn't been shy about hiding.
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May 31, 2013 10:04
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viewtyjoe posted:Honestly, I felt that, confusing charm cascades aside, 2e Lunars were executed relatively well and felt plenty different from other types to me. I understand why people have their reservations about Lunars' place in games, and they are pretty much completely removable from 2e without much impact unless your game hinges on Lunars already for some reason. That, and the whole implied "has sex with animals to create armies" thing were the biggest complaints I recall. Lunars definitely worked in 2e, which gave them a leg up on Sidereals, who were broken so bad it was actually hard to tell how broken they were. At one point, they were the most playable splat after Solars. But the problem was that, since they were actually being played, players started to see the problems a lot more than they did with many other splats: pre-errata Abyssals and Sidereals were so openly antagonistic to actual use that a lot of people never even saw them in play. The problems were: A) Setting. Because they were originally designed as an optional antagonist splat, you could remove the entire lot of them from the game and have minimal impact on the setting. but they weren't self contained, like Alchemicals, or new and with a clear purpose, like Abyssals/Infernals. This was a problem logically -- if the return of 300 Solars was supposed to kick over the ant hill of Creation, shouldn't the continual operations of 300 near-Solar-level Exalts for a thousand years have left some kind of mark? -- and also a practical problem, since it didn't leave Lunars any clear-cut major thematic conflict within the setting: the "What do lunars do?" portion of their book flailed around uselessly a lot, and kept repeatedly coming down on "Kill Dynasts" and "Thousand Streams River", which had its own problems. B) Mechanics. The Lunar charmset broke down into five categories: 1) Knacks, of which shapeshifting was spread over about 3 times more Knacks than it needed to be: it cost 11xp to learn how to change your loving hair color. 2) Raging Werewolf rear end in a top hat charms. 3) Charms that were like Solar charms, but a bit worse. 4) Charms that did things no one in their right mind would ever want to do. 5) Charms that were cool and uniquely thematically Lunar in flavor and abilities, like Toad and Scorpion. As you can see, what you ideally want is 5 with a dash of 2, but what you got was a lot of 1, 2, 3, and 4. As far as character concepts went, it meant that Raging Werewolf rear end in a top hat was well supported, and everything after that got a bit mumbly. and C) Creepy bestiality rape poo poo. gently caress that noise.
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May 31, 2013 10:28
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Fightest posted:This is going loving way over my head. Can someone, without referencing mid-20th Century philosophers, tell me what the differences are between a Lunar and a Solar beyond one can turn into a dinosaur and the other shines like the Sun? viewtyjoe posted:Alternatively, they aren't a blank slate in that Lunars have been around for all of the Second Age and have been, from the previews and hints we've gotten, actively fighting the Realm at its edges, and winning in enough situations to be relevant, so you have a plot architecture kind of set up already if you're running a Lunar game and don't want to do something else. Yeah, this is one of the big differences: The Lunars survived the Usurpation. So while the Solars are True Heirs to the Throne, returning after years of exile to topple the usurpers etc, the Lunars organized and ran resistance movements* all through the Sidereal crackdown, the rise and fall of the Shogunate, and the establishment of the Realm. *and since this is Exalted, a scrappy band of resistance fighters can easily be an entire nation
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May 31, 2013 10:55
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So, I was reading through the Lunar 3e teaser they put out, and something caught my eye. Seven Devil Clever mentions something about how if the Wyld Hunt caught her and the other Lunar, they'd both be completely hosed. Like, two powerful Lunars get jumped by 5 DB monks, and the fight is a foregone conclusion. That seems...different, yeah? Or have I just underestimated how good Immaculates are? I feel like before, 5 monks would be a tough fight for a couple Solars/Lunars, but not entirely one sided unless one team was loaded with ringers. Certainly the Lunars ought to be able to escape if push came to shove. Pushing things the other way makes me hope they can back that up mechanically.
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May 31, 2013 13:10
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Fightest posted:This is going loving way over my head. Can someone, without referencing mid-20th Century philosophers, tell me what the differences are between a Lunar and a Solar beyond one can turn into a dinosaur and the other shines like the Sun? Lunars come in one of three different castes: warrior, trickster and shaman. They've traditionally been defined by the things they can't do: large-scale social engineering, making magical infrastructure, founding or effectively leading large organizations. They don't get to do large-scale, permanent and constructive things. This focus on what they can't do is unfortunate and virtually everyone agrees that the implementation of Lunars has sucked in both editions of Exalted (they also violently disagree on how to fix it). Hopefully third edition will deliver something better.
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May 31, 2013 13:13
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The Gate posted:So, I was reading through the Lunar 3e teaser they put out, and something caught my eye. Seven Devil Clever mentions something about how if the Wyld Hunt caught her and the other Lunar, they'd both be completely hosed. Like, two powerful Lunars get jumped by 5 DB monks, and the fight is a foregone conclusion. That seems...different, yeah? Or have I just underestimated how good Immaculates are? I feel like before, 5 monks would be a tough fight for a couple Solars/Lunars, but not entirely one sided unless one team was loaded with ringers. Certainly the Lunars ought to be able to escape if push came to shove. Pushing things the other way makes me hope they can back that up mechanically. The devs have mentioned (here, maybe?) that they are looking to get rid of or tone down the idea of explicit power tiers for the various types of Exalted, I think. So, Solar/Abyssal/Infernal > Lunar/Sidereal > Dragon-Blooded may not be much of a thing any more. Sounds good to me!
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May 31, 2013 13:16
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Modern Wyld Hunts (according to CoCD: Blessed Isle) are 5-10 Dragon-Blooded, as well as a mortal army to support them. Also they're not just a bunch of martial artists! There is usually at least one Immaculate, but I imagine most of them are not-monk DBs. I should hope that a small army and ten Exalted are a threat for a Lunar or two.
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May 31, 2013 13:17
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Oh God, now I'm having flashbacks to that other horrible thing from the East cuttingboard intro, with all that gushing about "abandoned temples and savage jungle tribes."
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May 31, 2013 13:21
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Heart Attacks posted:Modern Wyld Hunts (according to CoCD: Blessed Isle) are 5-10 Dragon-Blooded, as well as a mortal army to support them. Also they're not just a bunch of martial artists! There is usually at least one Immaculate, but I imagine most of them are not-monk DBs. Fair enough, I read very few of the 2ed books, and kind of assumed the Hunt was still 3-6 DB's with a platoon or two of heavy infantry. Doubling the amount of each would certainly explain that fluff.
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May 31, 2013 13:32
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The Gate posted:Fair enough, I read very few of the 2ed books, and kind of assumed the Hunt was still 3-6 DB's with a platoon or two of heavy infantry. Doubling the amount of each would certainly explain that fluff.
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May 31, 2013 13:41
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Nessus posted:I just realized I actually never read a writeup of the Linowan, except for 'and these are the guys the Haltans have feuds with.' Sounds like I'm not missing a bunch though. I always like the fact that the Linowan / Haltan war was literally driven by the conflict between redwood spirits and pine spirits. Yes, that's right. It's a horrendous, tragic conflict masterminded by warmongering trees. Old Kentucky Shark posted:C) Creepy bestiality rape poo poo. gently caress that noise. I'm presuming 3e will have some means of creating chickenfolk that doesn't boil down to "loving a chicken".
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May 31, 2013 13:41
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If it was oaks and maples, it would've been just like that Rush song, man.  Alien Rope Burn posted:I'm presuming 3e will have some means of creating chickenfolk that doesn't boil down to "loving a chicken".
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May 31, 2013 13:48
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Nessus posted:I think you're kind of both right, since the books have noted that the Wyld Hunt has been running on fumes and Peleps Deled's hatred of everything that isn't Peleps Deled due to all the Great Houses pulling their surplus heavily-armed maniacs back home, in anticipation of civil war. I believe the books are supposed to be describing both pre-Empress-vanishment and post-vanishment eras too. Yeah it's weird. Some of the books talk about how the civil war that seems to be on the Realm's doorstep is leading to cuts in the Wyld Hunt forces (which normally only feature like 3-5 dragon-blooded), but then it also talks about how they're doubling down since the Solars have started to return in greater numbers.
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May 31, 2013 14:15
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Heart Attacks posted:Yeah it's weird. Some of the books talk about how the civil war that seems to be on the Realm's doorstep is leading to cuts in the Wyld Hunt forces (which normally only feature like 3-5 dragon-blooded), but then it also talks about how they're doubling down since the Solars have started to return in greater numbers.
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May 31, 2013 14:25
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Alien Rope Burn posted:I always like the fact that the Linowan / Haltan war was literally driven by the conflict between redwood spirits and pine spirits. This is easy enough to accomplish. When playing lunars in our group, nobody liked the animal-sex... so we changed it. You know, all night ritual in a Wyld-zone of dancing, singing and drugs, and you could be 'turned' into a beastman. That spell Imbue Amalgam? Well, how about a Celestial-level spell specific to Lunars, cast in a Wyld-zone, that transforms a willing individual (or group of individuals) into beastmen. Best use of this: armies of Rocksteadys and Bebops ready to trash some realm legions. As for the talk about 'tropes' like it's a dirty word... folks are just looking for the 'right' tropes in our 3E lunars, right? I really don't think 3E lunars is a medium that will witness the inception of some entirely new subset of fantasy/wuxia roleplaying.
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May 31, 2013 15:02
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Heart Attacks posted:Yeah it's weird. Some of the books talk about how the civil war that seems to be on the Realm's doorstep is leading to cuts in the Wyld Hunt forces (which normally only feature like 3-5 dragon-blooded), but then it also talks about how they're doubling down since the Solars have started to return in greater numbers. Well, that and the fact that the Wyld Hunt was never really detailed in Exalted 2nd edition, so the ground rules weren't really set. It had been detailed in 1st edition - in Cult of the Illuminated - but that information seemed to be largely forgotten in 2nd edition. (Along with the Cult of the Illuminated details, for better or worse.)
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May 31, 2013 15:09
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viewtyjoe posted:Lunars are 50% more likely to wear fur bikinis You can ignore any setting element that's not relevant to the game you are playing, be it Solars, Lunars, Dragon-Blooded, Gods, Yozis, Neverborn, whatever. Getting real tired of this flimsy argument. Old Kentucky Shark posted:Lunars definitely worked in 2e, which gave them a leg up on Sidereals, who were broken so bad it was actually hard to tell how broken they were. At one point, they were the most playable splat after Solars. But the problem was that, since they were actually being played, players started to see the problems a lot more than they did with many other splats: pre-errata Abyssals and Sidereals were so openly antagonistic to actual use that a lot of people never even saw them in play. You forgot '6.) Highly abuseable charms when combined with Knacks, such as Spider and Octopus Barrage' and glossed over how mindless 2. When you can activate half a dozen major boosts with a single Charm activation and then proceed to spend the rest of a (social) combat mindlessly flurrying at people with your many-armed centipede death warrior you've got loving issues. If anything was toxic about their charm and Knack set, its how 'fire and forget my scene longs' the entire thing was. Alien Rope Burn posted:Well, that and the fact that the Wyld Hunt was never really detailed in Exalted 2nd edition, so the ground rules weren't really set. It had been detailed in 1st edition - in Cult of the Illuminated - but that information seemed to be largely forgotten in 2nd edition. (Along with the Cult of the Illuminated details, for better or worse.) For the better. Cult of the Illuminated was pretty terrible all around, from the Hunt itself to the Cult and its messianic canon Solars who in some cases, I poo poo you not, had painfully obvious Biblical references in their loving names. Oh and of course they were also hiding an Abyssal in the basement instead of doing the logical thing (hand him over to the Bureau of Endings/Convention on Deathlords/Convention on Abyssals/etc -- also 'what the gently caress is Resonance?' a hurr durr) and brainwashed some Lunars into worshiping their cult Solars. Yeeeaaahh... e: typos Strength of Many fucked around with this message at 15:29 on May 31, 2013 |
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May 31, 2013 15:11
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nacon posted:As for the talk about 'tropes' like it's a dirty word... folks are just looking for the 'right' tropes in our 3E lunars, right? I really don't think 3E lunars is a medium that will witness the inception of some entirely new subset of fantasy/wuxia roleplaying. It is a dirty word because of TVTropes. Basically that's why that guy last night thought it was ok to list Pocahontas, a real person, as a savage or barbarian "trope" without knowing anything about her. Tropes, in TVTrope or other uncritical formats, are actually really awful.
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May 31, 2013 15:19
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nacon posted:I really don't think 3E lunars is a medium that will witness the inception of some entirely new subset of fantasy/wuxia roleplaying. Depends. You can write outlier civilizations and the demigods who rule over or created them without being up your own butthole about the 'Noble Savage' or sucking Howard's dick the whole way home. It usually involves, you know, cultural complexity and weight of material to give them depth and at least seem somewhat believable, maybe even interesting and endearing as a society! Which they achieved, at least, with Halta and the Haslanti League. I'm not sure when or where those guys stopped being a solid example of hardy fringe cultures/peoples, that we needed to go back to generic Conan stereotypes. Mexcillent posted:It is a dirty word because of TVTropes. Basically that's why that guy last night thought it was ok to list Pocahontas, a real person, as a savage or barbarian "trope" without knowing anything about her. TVTropes and Tropes in general tend to ignore any sort of subtlty or nuance in favor of playing to the letter. For (a lot of) people its a checklist you make during chargen instead of a list of inspirations to take from and blend together until an actually complex character or diverse setting group is created This is especially true of a lot of Exalted fans and their games, in my experience. Strength of Many fucked around with this message at 15:33 on May 31, 2013 |
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May 31, 2013 15:25
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I think it's fair to charitably read "Pocohantas" as referring to the Disney movie of the same name; Lunars 1e (for all the fact that it was okay on some fronts) pushed Noble Savagery bullshit in a way not dissimilar to that film.
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May 31, 2013 15:31
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Strength of Many posted:TVTropes and Tropes in general tend to ignore any sort of subtlty or nuance in favor of playing to the letter. For (a lot of) people its a checklist you make during chargen instead of a list of inspirations to take from and blend together until an actually complex character or diverse setting group is created Just read primary sources or enough of primary sources that you can wing it. Age of Bronze that's a good comic, never seen a TVTropes entry for it.
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May 31, 2013 15:31
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Oligopsony posted:I think it's fair to charitably read "Pocohantas" as referring to the Disney movie of the same name; Lunars 1e (for all the fact that it was okay on some fronts) pushed Noble Savagery bullshit in a way not dissimilar to that film. Yeah, the problematic comes in "playing with a trope!" or whatever justification for a dumb, reductive setting element to echo awful discourse irl. E: Both in Lunars 1e, Pocahontas, etc. Mexcillent fucked around with this message at 15:41 on May 31, 2013 |
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May 31, 2013 15:32
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Mexcillent posted:Yeah, the problematic comes in "playing with a trope!" or whatever justification for a dumb, reductive setting element to echo awful discourse irl.
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May 31, 2013 16:52
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How common to people like to make Manses and Demesnes in their games? From frameworks like the one set down in Odeandol's Codex it strikes me as pretty natural to have any place that's been comfortably settled (or frequented for nomads) for a long time by a people with some sort of magic folks in their ranks to have invested the time and effort into sculpting a well-aligned landscape and capping it off. Even an otherwise 'mundane' population may try to bring together the skills and labour needed to build a manse, precisely because it gives them some supernatural leverage that can come entirely from mortal labour. Having a lot of little manses dotted around can leave a lot of seeds for larger adventure towns for a team roving about the countryside, along with an abundance of little hearthstones waiting to be earned as rewards for heroic deeds or ripped from the cold dead hands of bad dudes whose days you ruined. On the other hand, keeping such things less common to avoid over-saturating an area with mystical doodads and creating the expectation that only mystic artifice matters, or to set the tone of a more sparse and desolate world where such things are rare beacons of light and wonder has its own advantages. How much magic land do folks like in their games?
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May 31, 2013 17:43
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I always figured manses to be gigantic manifestations of exalted megalomania. You stride into a huge, fantastic landscape that has over the centuries developed a unique supernatural ecology sustained by the natural essence flows of the area, put your fists on your waist, and go "Yyyyep, I'm gonna turn this entire place into +4 dice on my jumping rolls."
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May 31, 2013 17:51
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The Usurpation was motivated by the fear that eventually the wilds of Creation would resemble Ultima Online or Star Wars Online. Miles upon miles of player housing, interrupted by the occasional protected dungeon or pre-existing city. But so many Stats...
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May 31, 2013 18:05
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You need those 4 dice, man, every little edge counts in exalt on exalt combat. Doesn't this sprawling, wondrous ecosystem understand that? Isn't it being just a liiittle bit selfish? Well, whatever, I tried using reason, send in the erymanthoi.
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May 31, 2013 18:06
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A_Raving_Loon posted:How much magic land do folks like in their games? That's a tough question, because 2e seems to assume Hearthstones are a regular reward for adventures. Every artifact seems to require or come with a Heartstone slot. But Hearthstones are frequently A) useless or B) game-busting. Still, given 2e assumptions, I don't mind of having small demesnes or manses all over, though higher-level ones tend to be the rare worthy-of-a-quest (or conquest) sorts of locales. These days I rarely build a character without at least one, if not too - it's just two much of a setting assumption for Exalts to go without them. Plus, as mentioned, a lot of them are loving terrible and busted, and as a player, who doesn't want that?
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May 31, 2013 18:08
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