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Oligopsony: May 17, 2007

Attorney at Funk posted:

Seems one of the new Martial Arts styles in the 3E core will be about beating the poo poo out of people with a ladder. This I've gotta see.

Wasn't there a Jackie Chan-style MA all about smacking people around with improvised weapons, or am I making that up?

# ¿ May 31, 2013 03:18

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# ¿ May 14, 2024 18:30

Oligopsony: May 17, 2007

Nessus posted:

Didn't Dark Messiah, in addition, grant some specific benefit from using dead bodies or coffins as weapons?

I think it doubled stunt bonuses for descriptions involving excessive cruelty (which, not to bring the Issues From The Other Thread into here, is IMO an example of bringing in horrible poo poo the right way, since the exact expression of it is up to the player.)

# ¿ May 31, 2013 03:33

Oligopsony: May 17, 2007

Strength of Many posted:

I'd rather see their themes be worked into Abyssals but we're well beyond that point I guess.

Yeah, Abyssals were already kind of choking for thematic space IMO, and the line is already a bit crowded. But it's all in the implementation, of course.

# ¿ May 31, 2013 03:57

Oligopsony: May 17, 2007

The Lunars book was more sophisticated than it's often given credit for, but "civilization is bad" is a very inapt way of expressing it. It's natural for the Dragon-Blooded and their allies to do the "civilization" talk because that evokes the moral framework imperialists have always operated within. Their victims tend to see themselves as just as civilized - which I think was an advantage of the 2e treatment.

# ¿ May 31, 2013 04:03

Oligopsony: May 17, 2007

Rand Brittain posted:

I think you could describe the take on Lunars in 3e by saying "Okay, we're doing Lunars from 1e again; we just won't assume they actually believe the stuff they say themselves."

What's the current policy on the, uh, other stuff.

# ¿ May 31, 2013 04:05

Oligopsony: May 17, 2007

I always liked Solar Mate, because I'm a sucker for anything with plot hooks. Heck, I'd make Lunar Mate a background for Solars, Abyssals, and Infernals. That said, I can see why people disliked it.

# ¿ May 31, 2013 04:21

Oligopsony: May 17, 2007

I think there's a lot of value in maybe thinking of factions as distinct from splats, like, that Team Oblivion or Team Hell or Team Realm is bigger than the Exalt types traditionally associated with them. I'm not sure if standardized terms like "Iron Faction" does more to usefully allow this or to reify what, after all, should be a fairly broad spectrum of ideological banners to flock to, though.

Mexcillent posted:

I think we can all agree we want Ma Ha Suchi to be Usama bin Laden and not goat-wolf rape enthusiasm guy.

Bureau of Destiny funded MHSC to fight the Fair Folk; Chejop Kejak hid the facts. Think, sheeple!

# ¿ May 31, 2013 04:54

Oligopsony: May 17, 2007

Strength of Many posted:

Which works for those heavily organized splats.

Solars and Lunars were predominately about freedom and coming from a variety of backgrounds. They're individuals, and their individual motivations outweigh the needs or demands of a single faction, and they end up having the power to back that up.

Maybe this is a (late) 2e thing but when did it people start lumping those two, Solars in particular, into the same boat with every other member of their respective splat? It boggles my mind..

I dunno, but that's more or less my point, yeah. The kind of Exalt you are is a distinct question from what, if any, major team you're on.

GreenMetalSun posted:

I'm actually curious to see how the Realm/Immaculate Order will view the Exigents and the gods who create them.

If the Exigent is the product of a god loyal to the Realm, maybe they'll have the right to be allotted worship or on the Isle? If they're the creation of a god who opposes the Order, the Dragon-Blooded will be sent to beat them up until they acquiesce?

Good question! The diegetic logic might depend on how they were incorporated into the First Age, and how powerful they can get and so on, but on a metagame level I like the idea of it depends on the status of the god in question: that way you can throw in "hunted down by the Realm!" or leave it as you prefer.

(Of course, the Incarna are totally legitimate gods as far as the Immaculate Philosophy is concerned, but.)

Mexcillent posted:

You know, I hope that the writers have enough time to playtest and make a good book. I think that's the big difference on E2 and E1.

The days of the supplement treadmill are dead; we're living in the age of Kickstarter, POD, and the long tail. On this at least I'm not too worried, though I suppose I could express this cynically as well - the edition isn't actually coming out this year; of that I'm sure.

# ¿ May 31, 2013 05:18

Oligopsony: May 17, 2007

Oh God, now I'm having flashbacks to that other horrible thing from the East cuttingboard intro, with all that gushing about "abandoned temples and savage jungle tribes."

# ¿ May 31, 2013 13:21

Oligopsony: May 17, 2007

I think it's fair to charitably read "Pocohantas" as referring to the Disney movie of the same name; Lunars 1e (for all the fact that it was okay on some fronts) pushed Noble Savagery bullshit in a way not dissimilar to that film.

# ¿ May 31, 2013 15:31

Oligopsony: May 17, 2007

Mexcillent posted:

Yeah, the problematic comes in "playing with a trope!" or whatever justification for a dumb, reductive setting element to echo awful discourse irl.

E: Both in Lunars 1e, Pocahontas, etc.

Yeah. I feel like RPGs are particularly bad at this - though they needn't be - because they've come to be constructed as something of "genre cookbooks," where the goal of a setting or system is full spectrum emulation of a pre-existing bundle of, uh, genre conventions. It offloads responsibility onto the pre-existing cultural fog. When your source material is ancient myth, pulp fantasy, and animes, welp,

# ¿ May 31, 2013 16:52

Oligopsony: May 17, 2007

Mexcillent posted:

My bad forgot China.

Yeah, and Egypt and the Anasazi and the Soviets and Easter Island and

I mean, we're talking about a setting that's basically Gordon Childe with more punching.

# ¿ Jun 1, 2013 04:25

Oligopsony: May 17, 2007

Mexcillent posted:

Ancestral Puebloans (Anasazi) weren't that, though. Unless they caused climate change or Athabaskan migration.

I thought they hosed up their water supply? I could be misremembering.

quote:

My point is that not all changes to an environment are catastrophic.

I think Exalted tends towards a romantic conservatism in being skeptical of Brilliant Plans to change complex systems around. Of course saying EVERY MANSE IS A DISASTER is really heavy-handed and would get dull after a while.

Of course, it's also probably fair to say that the modern concepts of "nature" and "ecology" don't really exist in Creation. It's sociology all the way down.

# ¿ Jun 1, 2013 04:34

Oligopsony: May 17, 2007

Mexcillent posted:

AnCap romanticism is the last frontier to get over in making Exalted the best LLCO RPG on the market.

Nah man it's needed so you can give Mao/Zizek-style koans about necessary catastrophes.

# ¿ Jun 1, 2013 04:45

Oligopsony: May 17, 2007

lmao now I'm imagining Alain Badiou as a Sidereal

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# ¿ Jun 1, 2013 04:46

Oligopsony: May 17, 2007

Attorney at Funk posted:

Wow, someone's never read Rand.

Everything good was made by Autochthon but everyone else was just a LOOTER who didn't appreciate his CREATIVE VISION well gently caress YOU the Great Maker is going off to HIS OWN PRIVATE REALITY FREE FROM YOUR MOOCHING and ohfuckgremlinismandwheredthesoulsgo

# ¿ Jun 1, 2013 04:55

Oligopsony: May 17, 2007

Nessus posted:

I unironically assumed the Invisible Fortress was, at least in part, a sick riff on Galt's gulch.

Notable Gulches of Creation: Malfeas, Autochthonia, the Jade Prison, the Invisible Fortress, the Labyrinth, whatever Lunars have been doing...

# ¿ Jun 1, 2013 05:02

Oligopsony: May 17, 2007

Every world is a grave. Some just haven't been dug yet.

# ¿ Jun 1, 2013 05:03

Oligopsony: May 17, 2007

Valhawk posted:

Have they apologized for their insanely offensive preview and their toxic response yet? Because that's pretty much a pre-requisite before they get a dime of my money.

Sorta, kinda, not really:

Project Update #23 posted:

But before we get to our usual Milestones breakdown, we need to address the concerns that the Abyssals Preview raised after we posted it. We're extremely sorry that the intent of the Charms was not clear and that the descriptions did not convey the powers to such an extent as to make readers upset. The Lover Clad in the Raiment of Tears's Charms were written as they were to emulate the truly evil actions she is capable of, but it is clear from the comments here and across the internet that we were not clear in exactly what those evils were. After reading through them with the concerns of others as our guide, as opposed to our intentions, we can see how some folks were appalled at what was presented. Rest assured that we are listening to ALL of the feedback and are adjusting the text to create the interpretation of the Charms that we did intend. In the spirit of further clarification, I give you this message from the Devs:

As it turns out, concept thumbnails don't communicate as much detail as full Charm writeups, and some people wanted clarification on the style and intent of a couple of the Charm ideas in the recent Abyssals preview. Without further ado, we're happy to clarify the idea behind those Charms here:

Frozen Watchfire Embrace

Frozen Watchfire Embrace lets an Abyssal manage multiple lovers at once, while maintaining her parasitism, and also causing them to boil with lust for her. Those apparitions are not for rape. They are for haunting, and seduction. They will be insistent, terrifying, and seductive, but ultimately only the dark lusts and passions of the target will allow these phantoms to do what their master has bid. They take the deathknight's paramour down the road to damnation. By giving in, said lover knows they are giving in to something dark and terrible, yet incredibly desirable. There's no force involved, only haunting seduction.

Black Rose Blooming

You shroud yourself in the unearthly perfection of the grave, achieving a beauty beyond the ken of the mortal world. Pale figures and moaning shadows, ephemera drawn from the Underworld by your deathly allure, rustle at the eaves, blow past the windows, and press their hands and lips to the doors of your abode, whispering your name, whispering for someone to let them in.

On the road at night, a lone traveler might find herself meeting a rider with skin like white orchids and a perfect symmetry of form and figure. He seems a romantic icon from another world, and as he asks her name, restless shades flit through the trees, creep into the road, and touch his legs and his horse with aching, possessive awe. He brushes them aside as he helps the traveler onto the back of his horse and takes off into the night, the phantoms riding in his wake, not quite daring to call out his forbidden, forsaken name. Neither woman nor rider are seen again, not in that region.

Abyssal tone

Exalted doesn't tend to pull punches when describing ugly things in its setting, or to sugar-coat the excesses, vices, or atrocities of its heroes. This makes striking an appropriate tone when talking about the specifically awful parts of the game�such as a monster like the Lover Clad in the Raiment of Tears�a careful balancing act. To be clear, the Abyssal Exalted and their Deathlord creators delve into some very dark themes at times, but to be equally clear, Exalted is supposed to be fun to play. We appreciate and are considering the great feedback we've gotten as a result of the latest preview.

# ¿ Jun 3, 2013 06:52

Oligopsony: May 17, 2007

Counting Dreams as canon, it's been almost exactly 5,000 years since the surrender of the makers of the world (with countless lost eons before that, obviously.) I think the writers have implied they're throwing Dreams out wholesale, though.

# ¿ Jun 3, 2013 15:40

Oligopsony: May 17, 2007

Mikan posted:

I don't know why you guys want the White Wolf forums back up, because the people posting there are awful. If they put up a "we'll never host White Wolf forums again" stretch goal I'd even consider backing the project.

Think of it as a sort of Jade Prison.

# ¿ Jun 4, 2013 22:02

Oligopsony: May 17, 2007

I think it's clear that they want a crunch-heavy game, unfortunately. It's not like there aren't a bunch of ports for lighter systems, though. (I might want to run something Cortex-based in the near future!)

# ¿ Jun 5, 2013 05:50

Oligopsony: May 17, 2007

Attorney at Funk posted:

You can do a crunch-heavy game without needing to track a bunch of fiddly little static modifiers and collate them together. If you stripped out feats and ability scores and the need for a magic item treadmill from D&D 4e, you'd still have a tremendously deep tactical combat system, but crucially you would not have tactical combat chargen where you need to spend time searching out, writing down, and tabulating a bunch of passive bonuses to make the math on your guy work right.

Charms...

QuintessenceX posted:

"he might want to bang her like a fine drum"

uggggh

# ¿ Jun 5, 2013 05:59

Oligopsony: May 17, 2007

Where are my Cynis Charm previews? I feel cheated. :argh:

But seriously, other than the intimation of even longer Charm chapters, all of this looks golden. First splat preview to leave me more psyched than before.

# ¿ Jun 5, 2013 21:47

Oligopsony: May 17, 2007

Ferrinus posted:

Here's what I'm hoping for, by the way: no Breeding background. Let's just, not have that Background. What if the Terrestrials weren't declining with time. What if that.

What if the sun was a super great bro who lived in a giant robot. What if the Yozis are going to escape. What if this is a bad idea and you should feel bad.

# ¿ Jun 5, 2013 21:55

Oligopsony: May 17, 2007

Nightskye posted:

I actually kind of like the idea, if only because it attaches kind of an inevitable mortality to their entire way of life-- no matter how hard they fight, the blood is ultimately thinning, and one day there simply won't be any more Terrestrials -- but yeah, Breeding is probably the most boring way to put that across.

Ferrinus posted:

Yeah, I should specify that I'm totally fine with the Dragon-Blooded being in decline, but I don't want it to be because the Dragon-Blooded, as a species, are dying out because they lacked the willpower to implement a sufficiently rigorous eugenics program.

I agree with both of these, and note that the blood can be in decline in a way that eugenic programs can't reverse. This was already canon: neither the Host not the Lintha can in the end preserve themselves, despite their awareness of the problem and willingness to attack it.

# ¿ Jun 5, 2013 22:15

Oligopsony: May 17, 2007

To me, Neph's failures are a reason for skepticism more than anything else - from an outside view, I can't think of any two people more qualified to have set the system on solid foundation than he and Jenna, but they hosed it up pretty badly (albeit not in a way that was at all obvious.) The current team is by all accounts competent too; why should I expect them to do better? (Not that I'm unwilling to take a look; far from it!)

Also yes on Neph being a better frontman than John or Holden.

# ¿ Jun 6, 2013 17:39

Oligopsony: May 17, 2007

Ferrinus posted:

Yeah, John's explanation doesn't actually make any sense and sounds like a cover for him either being unsure of how to handle things or stubbornly dug in.

Siloing is a great idea, but it's really Charms themselves that need siloing if you want to keep up inter-character parity if the system is anything like 1e and 2e were. If we both know forty charms, and thirty five of my charms are for combat, and five of your charms are for combat...

This is what Style XP is, no?

# ¿ Jun 6, 2013 18:23

Oligopsony: May 17, 2007

Ferrinus posted:

As currently described, Solar XP is there to give you an extra pool of points to buy anything but Solar Charms(and Essence, I guess?). Your Solar Charms themselves aren't siloed, and because Charm trees are going to be bigger than ever, it seems like there'll be even more ability for one character to buy completely into an area of specialty that another character hasn't even begun to touch.

It's one of the problems with GMC combat as it stands - it's not that any particular option is overpowered, it's that the more total XP you make possible to pour into a given area of expertise, the more strongly you segregate characters who specialize in that field from characters who dabble in that field.

Right - I had thought there was a third silo called "Style XP" that was only for MA.

(If you want rules-as-physics justification, you could totally mandate that Essence development requires a certain amount of learning in Martial Arts styles. Actually, gently caress it, this is really easily implementable as a house rule.)

# ¿ Jun 6, 2013 18:36

Oligopsony: May 17, 2007

So 3e is going to debut Liminal, Getiminian, Exigent, and two different types of undersea Exalted (in addition to Solar, Lunar, Sidereal, Terrestrial, Abyssal, Alchemical, and Infernal Exalted.) That's... a lot of Exalted.

Mikan posted:

Holden also conducted all real discussions of the issue in private discussions, used an RPGnet poster as a gatekeeper to keep away anyone with criticisms, lied to some people and offered different versions of the story and how apologetic they were depending on who he was talking to. Even if you ignore what was said in those private discussions or don't want to take someone's word for them, doing everything in private and relying on someone else to handle the flak is manipulative and awful.

Based on the private correspondence I've seen myself, I actually do understand why some of the more concrete reasons for reassurance can't be broadcasted. From an outside perspective, though, I'm aware that this sounds like bullshit and probably shouldn't count as evidence.

# ¿ Jun 7, 2013 10:30

Oligopsony: May 17, 2007

BryanChavez posted:

I know that it's moved on from it, but I like the original canonical idea that everything is (eventually) doomed, heroes are deeply flawed as personalities, and fighting and winning against a dozen Brides of Ahlat is an impressive and heroic feat, even if you're a Solar.

With Stephen and Geoff on the team, I'm cautiously optimistic that we'll be seeing more of this, if (alas) not the the extent of early 1e.

# ¿ Jun 7, 2013 23:08

Oligopsony: May 17, 2007

Personally, I'm hoping for lots of bikinis, spikes, and pouches.

# ¿ Jun 9, 2013 14:20

Oligopsony: May 17, 2007

Attorney at Funk posted:

On the swords?

Especially on the swords.

# ¿ Jun 9, 2013 14:26

Oligopsony: May 17, 2007

Dude Volfer's sword has a demon inside, it's a demon deployment device, calling it a "sword" is just colorful metaphor, does everything have to be spelled out for you idiots.

# ¿ Jun 9, 2013 21:08

Oligopsony: May 17, 2007

MiltonSlavemasta posted:

I honestly don't give that much of a poo poo what the sig chars' weapons look like because I'm just going to lovingly detail the signature weapon of every character I create. Even if it's their fists. Especially if it's their fists.

Yo, StephenLS, do you think I could reskin an artifact weapon as a legendary kung fu sutra in the 3e system? Like, instead of being a physical heavy weapon, meditating on it makes my fists break through iron bars and hit like they have a mass that would make no sense in our world. As I come to understand the true meaning of the sutra, I unlock evocations.

I get you guys would maybe not publish this kind of thing because it competes with your actual martial art styles for design space and people on the 'official forums' would probably find some reason to hate it, but if it's doable I'm going to do it.

I don't see why this shouldn't be doable - the relevant balance feature (if there's going to be any balance between armed/unarmed in the first place) would be that you pay for artifacts and can be disarmed of weapons. So someone hits your pressure points and the sutras become unavailable, or Delilah cuts your hair and your strength flees from you.

# ¿ Jun 9, 2013 21:31

Oligopsony: May 17, 2007

Stephenls posted:

Specifically my position here is that Exalted is not a game where infrastructure is an aesthetic choice. Making poo poo is a pain in the rear end, as is using it -- learning to craft or finding a guy who knows how to craft already, getting supplies together, engaging in craft, and then tying your competence to an external thing that you have to go to the trouble of lugging around, and which you will be at a disadvantage without, gives you an advantage in conflict against someone who doesn't bother to deal with all those things. Exalted provides methods by which unarmed people might become highly effective combatants, but all else being equal, in a conflict between a tool-specialist and an unarmed specialist, the tool-specialist will be at an advantage when his tools are at hand, and the unarmed specialist will be at an advantage when the tools are unavailable.

This is because Exalted is to a great extent a game about process and infrastructure and economics and the interaction between those things, as well as the interaction between those things and things like morals and ethics. We aggressively design the game so you can ignore that stuff with relative ease if you just want to play a character with a cool sword who hunts monsters or knocks over kingdoms or gets involved in a lot of steamy scandal-laden courtly politics, but all the process/infrastructure/economics elements are there. And it's important to make sure they're down in the game's foundations, propping up the fights against tyrant lizards, because it's almost impossible to renovate a foundation once it's set and you've put a structure on it.

Lots of other games can be like "Spend ten build points for an attack with accuracy 5 and damage 6, then skin it however you want," but Exalted isn't.

EDIT: We are making the tool/unarmed disparity more narrow this edition, though.

I hope this doesn't mean helmets are going to start providing a bonus.

# ¿ Jun 9, 2013 22:02

Oligopsony: May 17, 2007

It actually occurs to me that in some ways Samson's hair and the ki fist are more ideal than normal weaponry for balance purposes, because you can be disarmed or caught unawares or lose them in the medium term, but there's no implicit balancing for "well maybe you'll lose it entirely, up to the GM."

# ¿ Jun 9, 2013 22:26

Oligopsony: May 17, 2007

Thesaurasaurus posted:

With respect, "a couple tags" can make a pretty significant difference in playstyle. For instance, if a greatsword has a tag that reduces momentum buildup in exchange for doing absolutely gently caress-off damage when you do get to hit, while a dagger gives a massive boost to your effective momentum when you attack from stealth, while unarmed lets you undercut the other guy's momentum by knocking them off-balance or grappling or whatnot (seriously, let's have grapple rules that aren't just "You're grappled and you didn't put points into the relevant Attribute/Ability? GET hosed."), while brawling with a room full of loose objects makes it harder for the other guy to defend because he has no idea what you're gonna smack him with next, that's a pretty meaningful distinction.

Ultimately there are going to have to be some similarities so long as any attack option has to have entries for accuracy and damage and reach and such, but having different attack types for each weapon can inject a lot of variety, and that's before getting into evocations and non-Charm MA Style Techniques.

Yeah, it seems to me like RPGs are just amazingly inefficient (compared to, say, board games) at converting system complexity into tactical complexity, and it seems as though there should be a lot of free lunches to pick off the ground. Exalted 2e fans in particular had this horrible rules-as-physics disease that ended up warping everything. I mean, I certainly appreciate the desire for the rules not to model a game world that contradicts the world-logic, but that seems to be a argument for abstraction more than anything else.

# ¿ Jun 10, 2013 21:02

Oligopsony: May 17, 2007

The whole theme of the Thrown trees have been surprise attacks, haven't they? Or is that just Solars?

# ¿ Jun 10, 2013 21:04

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# ¿ May 14, 2024 18:30

Oligopsony: May 17, 2007

Thoughts on the map? I like how it's progressing!

# ¿ Jun 27, 2013 23:10

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