|
There's lots of received crap about Lunars. I saw Winson Paine say earlier that without exaggeration the book is all rape and bestiality cover to cover when I seem to remember some not so great charms, bad character diversification advice (because of the crappiness of the charms and shapeshifting), and some ok stuff about Lunar anti-imperialism/"savagery" vs. "civilization" in Creation.
|
#
¿
May 31, 2013 03:43
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ May 14, 2024 01:55 |
|
|
Attorney at Funk posted:The takeaway I've gotten from hearing fans and developers talk about Lunars in past editions is that they're the one splat that's never gotten a fair shake, which is why there's that titanic homebrew rewrite of Lunars. I mean they're pretty much my favorite because imo, used right, they can be anything from Comandante Marcos to Usama Bin Laden to Spartacus. But as it is, I haven't seen that come out as much. 1st Edition matched my Lunar preconceptions the best but infuriated people because the Lunars weren't capable of being Koi-shapeshifters who told riddles and poetry and stuff (not that this is bad but it wasn't what I bought the book for). 2e tried to broaden the spectrum but also suffered from a lot of the creepy 2e eugenic mechanization and "An Exalt Did It!" stuff. I actually like that homebrew a lot, it fits my needs for the Lunars to be the awful, violent revenge of the subaltern. E: As a note I haven't played the homebrew. Mexcillent fucked around with this message at 03:59 on May 31, 2013 |
|
#
¿
May 31, 2013 03:50
|
|
|
Attorney at Funk posted:IIRC the sensible one was written by Malcolm Sheppard, who also posts here from time to time. Ethan Skemp also had a hand in that book, but I'm not sure who wrote that sidebar.
|
|
#
¿
May 31, 2013 03:52
|
|
|
Strength of Many posted:Its a gross exaggeration that only came up in sidebars. The rest was pretty 'hurr durr civilization bad' though, and their attempt and shoving a lot of Werewolf: the Apocalypse onto it rather than letting them be their own thing like MoEP: Lunars did. Got it, Dynastic civilization is an unvarnished good for Creation.
|
|
#
¿
May 31, 2013 03:58
|
|
|
Mors Rattus posted:No, 1e Lunars was very clear that if you went soft and lived in houses with flush toilets, Luna would take your powers away. The same one that recommended you use different weapons to differentiate your lunars? I mean Barbarian Warriors? I mean, I'm very comfortable with saying that the first part of the book which made lunar-"civilization" antagonism a conflict between subjected people and the Realm is probably a better representation of that element that everyone ignores in favor of the dumber, broad stuff from the STing chapter (written by a different author). Mexcillent fucked around with this message at 04:05 on May 31, 2013 |
|
#
¿
May 31, 2013 04:01
|
|
|
Initially I liked the Thousand Streams River, but over the years I don't think that it helped 2e's huge self-awareness/motonic physics problem. I also never really got the necessity of the Solar Mate background.
|
|
#
¿
May 31, 2013 04:11
|
|
|
Asimo posted:It's important to remember that Lunars were originally intended to be a purely antagonist splat, wyld-tainted monsters sort of in the same way that Abyssals were death-tainted genocidal maniacs. But both of those got toned down quite a bit midway through 1e's development when it was decided to let all the Exalted types be playable, and while the Abyssals sort of kept their theme (such as it was) the Lunars were really left flailing with no real niche or specialty. And an awful lot of front-loaded shapeshifting charms necessary for being Lunars at all. And then Knacks just doing it again the same way.
|
|
#
¿
May 31, 2013 04:15
|
|
|
Denim Avenger posted:Solar Mate was a desperate attempt to try and fit Lunars into the setting and make it feel like they belonged there when they very obviously didn't. How do Lunars not fit into Exalted? I mean...Enkidu.
|
|
#
¿
May 31, 2013 04:16
|
|
|
Yeah. Lunars are a great concept. I mean even the Lunars I played with the not so great powers sets (I didn't like Knacks, but I think that's because they gave me too much to manage) were a blast. Lunars own conceptually, and E3 sounds pretty good on the Lunar front. Hopefully there won't be secret awful kinky sex that shows up in their book.
|
|
#
¿
May 31, 2013 04:20
|
|
|
Denim Avenger posted:I don't mean there's no thematic place for them, but they weren't originally planned to be an Exalt until someone cynically decided to try and marry the Werewolf and Exalted fan base. Werewolf owns, Exalted (kind of) owns. I don't see the problem. I mean, are you upset about the Vampire -> Abyssal connection, or the Imbued -> Solar or Mages -> Sidereals thing? The whole thing was a "cynical" ploy and really hasn't gone much beyond it. It's just a weird attitude to have about a part of a game.
|
|
#
¿
May 31, 2013 04:23
|
|
|
Strength of Many posted:Man, I really miss 1e Infernals, by comparison. Were there 1e Infernals? Was that in Blood and Salt or something?
|
|
#
¿
May 31, 2013 04:25
|
|
|
Strength of Many posted:My biggest concern is they'll try to give them gravity and impact within the setting by making the Silver Pact or some similar organization, become hyper organized force with a lot/most/all of the Lunars behind it as one organization or entity. The Silver Pact and Renown for Lunars was some cynical crap. I can get on board with that complaint. Hoping there isn't a Silver Pact in 3e.
|
|
#
¿
May 31, 2013 04:28
|
|
|
Strength of Many posted:I disagree. They had a functional society that worked for a bunch of powerful Elders still kicking around with no formal institution and all of them wanting to pursue their own goals. It worked well for Lunar interactions with each other. I can see the value of that but frankly it always did feel super constricting and a leftover from Werewolf in the worst way. Frankly, I'd be really happy with Lunar regional powers and Lunar frontiers against the Realm and no larger organizations than that.
|
|
#
¿
May 31, 2013 04:34
|
|
|
Attorney at Funk posted:At least until some enterprising heroes band together to create the Joint Dictatorship of- For this purpose exactly and explicitly. And I see pro-Imperial Lunars as being an interesting complication (I don't know how many there would be but).
|
|
#
¿
May 31, 2013 04:37
|
|
|
I think we can all agree we want Ma Ha Suchi to be Usama bin Laden and not goat-wolf rape enthusiasm guy.
|
|
#
¿
May 31, 2013 04:42
|
|
|
You know, I hope that the writers have enough time to playtest and make a good book. I think that's the big difference on E2 and E1. I didn't have so many out the gate problems with E1. I imagine that's because the game was in development for a WHILE (like from before the first ad in Hunter or in part at least). I don't know how long the whole system's been in development (I'd guess maybe like since shards?) but I'm really hoping that there's time for the team to make the game a good game, including dealing with the baggage of issuing of unironic pornography as an april fool's joke. But the even worse baggage of a lot of bad expectations for the system.
|
|
#
¿
May 31, 2013 05:05
|
|
|
Strength of Many posted:Shame they didn't make modules a game-wide thing. I would have liked that more versus fifty billion (permanent) charm upgrades with huge bloated trees. Seconded. I get why the modules didn't worl because there's a few 1e ones that are infamous but they finished 1e with the Autocthonian Crusade and that was pretty drat good module work. I wish they had done that as a model for Exalted2. Was there a quality drop in and around 2008-09?
|
|
#
¿
May 31, 2013 05:18
|
|
|
PrinceRandom posted:My only problem is I don't want Lunars to be EXLUSIVELY "tribal Conan's or Pocahontas". Good job Exalted fanbase. Good job. E: Anything but Indians, please. Anything but Pocahontas. Mexcillent fucked around with this message at 06:16 on May 31, 2013 |
|
#
¿
May 31, 2013 06:14
|
|
|
Strength of Many posted:oh jesus, that pile of retarded. Yeah. It's pretty telling that the fanbase went off on the admittedly awful rape stuff and not the really awful "Inkas = Some Form of Savage" thing. Realistically as a gamer of color it never comes out well. Even when people are well-meaning. E: It might be puzzling to you why the idea of Inkas being "savages" is patently pretty dumb. I don't know what to tell you other than read 1491 or something.
|
|
#
¿
May 31, 2013 06:52
|
|
|
PrinceRandom posted:Did you miss the part where I said Exclusively? My issue is why you think Pocahontas fits. Like, you are aware she was a captive, enslaved by an expansionist power? I don't see how that goes against any of her exclusivity unless you weirdly think about Indians as being savages in the broad sense. If you're confused, here's the society Pocahontas came from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsenacommacah Mexcillent fucked around with this message at 06:57 on May 31, 2013 |
|
#
¿
May 31, 2013 06:54
|
|
|
Attorney at Funk posted:How can there be so much that you don't know? I don't know gross racial stereotypes?
|
|
#
¿
May 31, 2013 06:58
|
|
|
PrinceRandom posted:It looks they took more thought than and still just ended up with "Well obviously since they have a different societal structure and inhabit a geographical location that isn't the same as ours than us they want to tear everything up and kill poo poo". That seems lazy and has a disturbing implication that somehow tribal societies (or really just non Western or East Asian) are just implicitly violent and envious, like they just can't survive unless they are violent raiders. "Raiding" and "Trade" were difficult to distinguish in the cultures that the 1e version of Creation's "barbarians" was patterned on. I don't know, I'm still pretty curious about why Pocahontas followed Conan in your statement. E: a brief reference - http://www.drabruzzi.com/ABRUZZI_Ecology%20of%20Ethnic%20Interactions%20in%20New%20Mexico_1700_1850.pdf Mexcillent fucked around with this message at 07:05 on May 31, 2013 |
|
#
¿
May 31, 2013 06:59
|
|
|
Attorney at Funk posted:No, I was- it's not important Wait...I got it now.
|
|
#
¿
May 31, 2013 07:01
|
|
|
PrinceRandom posted:... I think we are arguing the same thing, but we are going around each other. I'm hoping they get away from the "Noble Savage" trope and the "Muscly Norseman" trope. Both of them have a "Heart of Darkness" feel. Like just because they aren't apart of the domninant civilization, their life is an automatic struggle to survive. I don't really care, as long as this poo poo isn't done in tropes. At all. Ever. E: And, yes, the whole point of "barbarians" in Creation is that since they live apart from the dominant imperial civilization, if they live in the sphere of that civilization, they are engaged in a struggle to survive. Not because of a state of nature, but because the Realm sees them as chattel slavery labor pools/problems in their calculations. Mexcillent fucked around with this message at 07:17 on May 31, 2013 |
|
#
¿
May 31, 2013 07:10
|
|
|
Ferrinus posted:I mentioned offhand to my friends that I wanted to eventually play an octopus-themed Lunar and learned that in Dreams of the First Age an octopus totem Lunar happened to be the husband of an evil transhumanist Solar who knew Kimbery charms, had tentacles on her face, and was literally named "K'Tula". I often wonder how much awful stuff in Exalted comes from the fact that writers put any inane crap into the game they wanted.
|
|
#
¿
May 31, 2013 07:20
|
|
|
Linowans own. Halta is awful. More Linowans.
|
|
#
¿
May 31, 2013 07:33
|
|
|
nacon posted:As for the talk about 'tropes' like it's a dirty word... folks are just looking for the 'right' tropes in our 3E lunars, right? I really don't think 3E lunars is a medium that will witness the inception of some entirely new subset of fantasy/wuxia roleplaying. It is a dirty word because of TVTropes. Basically that's why that guy last night thought it was ok to list Pocahontas, a real person, as a savage or barbarian "trope" without knowing anything about her. Tropes, in TVTrope or other uncritical formats, are actually really awful.
|
|
#
¿
May 31, 2013 15:19
|
|
|
Strength of Many posted:TVTropes and Tropes in general tend to ignore any sort of subtlty or nuance in favor of playing to the letter. For (a lot of) people its a checklist you make during chargen instead of a list of inspirations to take from and blend together until an actually complex character or diverse setting group is created Just read primary sources or enough of primary sources that you can wing it. Age of Bronze that's a good comic, never seen a TVTropes entry for it.
|
|
#
¿
May 31, 2013 15:31
|
|
|
Oligopsony posted:I think it's fair to charitably read "Pocohantas" as referring to the Disney movie of the same name; Lunars 1e (for all the fact that it was okay on some fronts) pushed Noble Savagery bullshit in a way not dissimilar to that film. Yeah, the problematic comes in "playing with a trope!" or whatever justification for a dumb, reductive setting element to echo awful discourse irl. E: Both in Lunars 1e, Pocahontas, etc. Mexcillent fucked around with this message at 15:41 on May 31, 2013 |
|
#
¿
May 31, 2013 15:32
|
|
|
Alien Rope Burn posted:That's a tough question, because 2e seems to assume Hearthstones are a regular reward for adventures. Every artifact seems to require or come with a Heartstone slot. But Hearthstones are frequently A) useless or B) game-busting. Have there been any mentions of hearthstones in E3? I know there's those secret artifact powers and I feel like that makes plenty of sense as a replacement for the really dull, mechanistic hearthstone creation process in 2e.
|
|
#
¿
May 31, 2013 18:20
|
|
|
Alien Rope Burn posted:Really part of it is just that Exalted games tend to be wandering games, and so there's often not much reason to focus on them overtly outside of a single adventure, unless it's a mobile manse, though they can be focuses for more sedentary campaigns. Tolkien god drat you. E: Good Demenses http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hills http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flint_Hills Mexcillent fucked around with this message at 19:58 on May 31, 2013 |
|
#
¿
May 31, 2013 19:56
|
|
|
Yeah, the focus on the Yozi and stuff really came at a time when I stopped buying Exalted books. Maybe I'm not the target market but I pretty much just found out about Infernals and Hell being places to play when the Infernals book came out. I kind of think that Hell and Heaven are pretty awful, just because they distract from Creation. I like the Underworld. I don't know. Random thoughts on reclamation or whatever.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 1, 2013 01:26
|
|
|
Kai Tave posted:Sure! I'm all for the idea that manses can be bad for the local environment if build incorrectly/selfishly, or if they've fallen into disrepair over the centuries and become broken and corrupted and need to be fixed (hint hint). But I would find it rather annoying if the writers laid it out that "well sure you can have a magic rock for your kickass sword if, y'know, you don't mind being a callous monster for your jump bonus, your move Exalts It's a very high modern idea of wilderness/ecosystems that informs this imo. "Even in my fantasy world, I assume that everyone loves private property and forcing land to suit their whims. Even my imagination is American."
|
|
#
¿
Jun 1, 2013 04:08
|
|
"
|
Nessus posted:I believe the history of large-scale public works projects is significantly deeper than your summary indicates. My bad forgot China. Anyways, there's way more working with land and reshaping in non-horrifying tragic ways than there are total ecological nightmares all the time.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 1, 2013 04:17
|
|
|
Oligopsony posted:Yeah, and Egypt and the Anasazi and the Soviets and Easter Island and Ancestral Puebloans (Anasazi) weren't that, though. Unless they caused climate change or Athabaskan migration. My point is that not all changes to an environment are catastrophic.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 1, 2013 04:27
|
|
|
Oligopsony posted:I think Exalted tends towards a romantic conservatism in being skeptical of Brilliant Plans to change complex systems around. Of course saying EVERY MANSE IS A DISASTER is really heavy-handed and would get dull after a while. AnCap romanticism is the last frontier to get over in making Exalted the best LLCO RPG on the market.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 1, 2013 04:35
|
|
|
Plague of Hats posted:We've already talked publicly about how it's awful that hearthstones have been "Some random magic rock of +3 self-satisfaction. Oh yeah and I guess a magic house is involved?" Hearthstones will be important in different ways and also not grab bag bullshit. Sorry bro I don't read Nishikriya close enough.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 1, 2013 05:09
|
|
|
Plague of Hats posted:I didn't mean it like "You would already know if you were a proper superfan." No I meant that for real. Like I didn't know that you guys had said what you said. Any bigger hints on Hearthstones? Like if not cool, but...
|
|
#
¿
Jun 1, 2013 05:15
|
|
|
If I can play a dude who can shift from a horseback lancing warrior-guy to a leather shield and warclub-guy effortlessly that would own.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 2, 2013 21:38
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ May 14, 2024 01:55 |
|
|
Tyrant lizard statblock didn't seem to be posted, so...quote:Tyrant Lizard
|
|
#
¿
Jun 5, 2013 01:28
|
|