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I love that he thinks he can unilaterally declare you've agreed to things and that he thinks he can sue you for copyright violations he assumes have occured and even future violations he assumes will occur.
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Jun 21, 2013 22:22
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Is he still claiming this was written by a lawyer? Because it sounds like it was written by someone whose legal education consists of watching Law and Order.
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Jun 21, 2013 22:23
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Sefer posted:I love that he thinks he can unilaterally declare you've agreed to things and that he thinks he can sue you for copyright violations he assumes have occured and even future violations he assumes will occur. Me too. Also, removing all of the images from my computer would be destruction of evidence, I believe. RogueLemming posted:Is he still claiming this was written by a lawyer? Because it sounds like it was written by someone whose legal education consists of watching Law and Order. I don't think so, maybe, possibly. But yes, it definitely looks very Law & Order, The Practice, Ally McBeal, or pick your favorite law show. Not replacing "You" with "Subjunctivitis" after having defined that "You" = "Subjunctivitis" really gives it away (within 2 words!). Subjunctivitis fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Jun 21, 2013 |
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Jun 21, 2013 22:26
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Wait until the last invoice is past due and haul him into small claims court. I am sure the judge there can use a good laugh when they read that. Edit: Do not respond. The only thing you should consider sending is a demand for payment in full.
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Jun 21, 2013 22:42
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One question: What kind of recourse, if any, does/would the photographer have on the basis of me immediately quitting the internship (i.e. without notice)?
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Jun 21, 2013 23:13
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Unless there is something really big you are forgetting to tell us, you were employed "at will". So nothing. That's really a question for the legal thread though.
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Jun 21, 2013 23:17
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Thoguh posted:Unless there is something really big you are forgetting to tell us, you were employed "at will". So nothing. That's really a question for the legal thread though. Yeah, there's nothing else other than the fact that I was tired of spending all the time and energy doing free work for him and that I wanted to terminate the internship before I really got into the next project. I had just started the next project, and had negligible amount of work done on it (I time-synched the photos from the different cameras and did about 30-50% of the sorting -- no selecting or retouching of the photos -- about 1 hour's worth of work). I have also linked to this thread from the legal thread.
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Jun 21, 2013 23:25
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So you didn't sign any contract right? All of your agreements were verbal?
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Jun 22, 2013 00:29
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ONEMANWOLFPACK posted:So you didn't sign any contract right? All of your agreements were verbal? No signature ever, all contracts verbal (though differently interpreted).
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Jun 22, 2013 00:31
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I think what he is counting on is that since your agreement to be paid was verbal he can say that his was verbal and that cancels yours out or he can force your hand. But you having these checks that he stopped payment on is evidence and a pretty simple breach of good faith. I'm not a lawyer but any rational judge will see right through what he is doing.
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Jun 22, 2013 00:43
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Subjunctivitis posted:Yeah, there's nothing else other than the fact that I was tired of spending all the time and energy doing free work for him and that I wanted to terminate the internship before I really got into the next project. I had just started the next project, and had negligible amount of work done on it (I time-synched the photos from the different cameras and did about 30-50% of the sorting -- no selecting or retouching of the photos -- about 1 hour's worth of work). I meant more along the lines of if you had signed some sort of contract that you hadn't mentioned. Because this is so blatant that I can't understand how you'd be remotely concerned about anything other than "how tough is it going to be to get my money". I can't see any possible thing he is standing on (totally not a lawyer) and if anything you could sue him for the unpaid "internship" that he admitted wasn't really an internship but you doing free work.
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Jun 22, 2013 01:15
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Subjunctivitis posted:
I am now actively cheering for you to lose your case because I gave you all the advice you needed last week and you're still fussing around wasting everybody's time with your goddamn details that don't loving matter. The problem with giving free legal advice is even the stingy little assholes don't respect it.
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Jun 22, 2013 01:54
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Look. Write him a letter. Slap a copy of the check to it. Reference his statements. Slap a petition and some discovery on the back of it. Give him 2 weeks to get you a check. If he doesn't, file suit.
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Jun 22, 2013 02:38
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Re-reading the original post: You are saying he is your client. He is saying you did an internship. Which is it? It doesn't sound like an internship at all, but in his head he thinks you were his intern.
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Jun 22, 2013 03:01
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solovyov posted:I am now actively cheering for you to lose your case because I gave you all the advice you needed last week and you're still fussing around wasting everybody's time with your goddamn details that don't loving matter. Got it. I've just been stressed about this whole thing, I felt a comedy response would help blow off some steam. Assistant invoices, small claims, no internship. Let the judge do the laughing from here on out. All my evidence is ready to roll, I just need to file. By the way, thank you for the slap in the face to get back on track. Seriously, I mean it, thank you for that, and for your earlier advice. ONEMANWOLFPACK posted:Re-reading the original post: It's both. Imagine working with your spouse or roommate. Are you co-workers or are you married/roommates? One side of the coin is assistant (one rate for work done on shoots, another for studio maintenance/errands, etc.), the other side is internship (no pay, all photo editing/retouching).
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Jun 22, 2013 07:39
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Ok because the OP kind of starts us off in the middle of the dream. We really have only hear things from your perspective. Don't second guess yourself now or anything but if you wouldn't mind writing out how this all happened exactly from day 1 I wouldn't mind reading it.
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Jun 22, 2013 08:01
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At what point do you mean by "day 1?"
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Jun 22, 2013 08:23
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I'm currently working at an unpaid internship doing web development, as I wanted to gain experience in programming before graduating and I still have a part time job on the side with flexible hours, so I can still make money over the summer. However, it's going a bit below my expectations for a few reasons... They provided almost no training for me to the work. Their training consisted of a total of about an hour and a half of talk time, showing me how to do specific things, and referring me to a few books to read. This is a small local startup business, and the owners work (i'd guess) 120 hours a week running their business and doing development, plus one of the owners has a newborn. So I understand that they literally don't have time to train me (but then why hire an intern with no previous experience?!). Now they are complaining that I am going too slow, and am unable to do the work. They did not even give me any deadlines or specific projects to work on, so how can they say I am going too slow? They have also called me awkward (probably true), and make me feel unwanted there, even though I really have nothing to talk to them about and just want to do good work (basically they are being very immature for being in their late 30s). They originally had plans to hire me as a subcontractor after the summer, but have gone back on their offer now because I am too slow. I am a pretty smart guy, and I'd like to think I am decent at programming, but how can they expect me to do complex tasks when I have no previous experience and no real training? I am working on a large scale eCommerce website, which has pretty complex things to implement like review systems, user databases, payment gateways, tons and tons of individual product pages which have to be individually programmed, etc. You really thought it would be a good idea to present an unpaid intern with no previous experience or training, one of the largest and most complicated projects you guys have worked on to date? And then they have the nerve to complain that I am too slow. Also the company has not provided any the data yet, so how can you expect it to be completed? Ridiculous. Now my confidence about my programming skills has been lowered, and I am thinking about switching majors all together (which is not all a bad thing, maybe it's good that I learned I am not super talented at programming. But I still have to think that if they provided adequate training, I would be just fine in terms of my speed and skills. I'm definitely smart enough to do the work, I just don't know how to). So basically, my last summer break (in my entire life, wow) is totally shot with work, I'm not performing well at my internship, it's unpaid with no chance at employment, and I'm not really learning as much as I could be I would imagine at most other companies that have real training programs. The only benefits of it are that I am learning some new programming languages and techniques, I can use it on my resume for future internships, and I have some real portfolio (large scale eCommerce websites, so pretty good) to back it up. So it's not all bad, just not as good as I envisioned. Also, any programmers have advice on where to begin with building a secure review system in ASP.net? That would be unbelievably awesome, if you can help me with that. I don't know where to start. coolbian57 fucked around with this message at 22:55 on Jun 22, 2013 |
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Jun 22, 2013 22:49
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coolbian57 posted:
quote:Also, any programmers have advice on where to begin with building a secure review system in ASP.net? That would be unbelievably awesome, if you can help me with that. I don't know where to start. I assume that if you're programming in .Net you have a SQL Server database available. You say you want it to be secure, so you'll want a table that holds user info- username, a hash of their password (never store passwords in plain text; use a has algorithm when they create the password, store the hash in your database, and when they log in use the same hash algorithm on the password they enter and compare the hash to the one stored in your database), and their shipping and billing information (since you'll want to use the same account for reviews and for buying products). You'll have the aforementioned table of product info (name, price, shipping cost/dimensions/weight/whatever, path to product images). You'll have a table for the reviews themselves; it will have a field for a user ID (to let you know who made the review) and a product ID (to let you know what product the review was about), in addition to the numeric rating and the text of the review. If you want to do this Amazon style, you'll have essentially 3 pages: one page is the main product page, which pulls info from the product table and will pull the first 3 reviews from the review table that match that product ID. If there are more than 3 reviews, you'd link to a second page, which will have all reviews for that product listed. You'll have a third page for entering in a review, which will write to the review table, taking the ID of the product that you're on and the id of the user you're logged in as. (You'll also need pages for logging in and creating an account, but I'm assuming that's already taken care of by the time you're looking to write a review). This is kinda high level stuff; for looking up the details of any particular step, Google is very much your friend and the best tool a programmer has. There are a ton of code examples out there, and if you learn nothing else from the internship than how to find those you'll have spent your time well.
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Jun 22, 2013 23:59
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Sefer posted:First, unless I'm misunderstanding you, you shouldn't be programming product pages individually. You should have a database table of products and have one page that you pass the ID of a product to that will fill in info from the database to create the page for that product. Never do individual static pages when a single dynamic page will do. Thank you for going into some depth on this problem. I do have a page template which has the capabilities to take in and display (and organize in the file system) data from the database, so i really just need the product data from the company at this point, and to make a spreadsheet which can be fed into this program i can use which organizes all of the spreadsheet in the database properly. However there are still minor things which unfortunately I think i may have to go back and change by hand. Your info about the review database was definitely helpful, you see we have a user database set up inthe content management system, i just need to figure out how to access it and add an additional field for product id and text of the review, and obviously how to leech the data from the table (whatever my sql query would be, which is quite simple in this case and i could just use sql studio). That was a big sanity check, and i'm very glad i have this to refer to. Can't thank you enough for this.
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Jun 23, 2013 17:04
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coolbian57 posted:I'm currently working at an unpaid internship doing web development, as I wanted to gain experience in programming before graduating and I still have a part time job on the side with flexible hours, so I can still make money over the summer. However, it's going a bit below my expectations for a few reasons... Is this anything other than a non-profit company? If so, them not paying you is against the law =).
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Jun 24, 2013 16:27
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Yeah, just loving leave. It sounds like what they expect you to do is the kind of thing that would take a couple experienced people several months, there is no way that its a task for an intern with no direction or supervision. Just leave and never look back. They're idiots and they are not worth your time or trouble.
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Jun 24, 2013 17:25
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coolbian57 posted:So basically, my last summer break (in my entire life, wow) is totally shot with work, I'm not performing well at my internship, it's unpaid with no chance at employment, and I'm not really learning as much as I could be I would imagine at most other companies that have real training programs. How important is your time? You can't get that back. It doesn't sound like you are getting out of it what you are supposed to, so, evensevenone posted:Yeah, just loving leave. It sounds like what they expect you to do is the kind of thing that would take a couple experienced people several months, there is no way that its a task for an intern with no direction or supervision. If you look back earlier in the thread, it has been pointed out several times that your internship is basically illegal (like mine). You could handle things differently from the way I handled mine and tell your bosses that you are doing work for them and think (rightfully) that you should be compensated for your work, and as such, if they cannot pay you, you can't continue the job and will have to quit. (I just straight-up quit.) From what I have been gathering over the past few weeks, these days, unpaid internships are very very hard to be considered legal, and it is a real burden on the employer to ensure that the unpaid internship stays legal. I get the impression that you could potentially find a busy web designer/coder who would be willing to farm out some work to you for a low rate. But I'm not sure what kind of contract you signed with them (if any), so there may be provisions in there that state you can't get other work in the field for some amount of time (i.e. a non-compete clause). -------------- An update to my situation: Heeding the advice of solovyov and my out-of-state lawyer friends, as well as the small claims advisor I spoke with on Monday, I will be doing these 3 things on Tuesday July 2: 1) Mailing the photographer a demand for payment re: stop checks per 1719 regulations 2) Mailing the photographer a demand for payment re: late unpaid invoices 3) Filing with the small claims court for the stopped checks and for the late invoices Why on Tues 2nd and not now? Because the photographer has indicated that he has no intention to pay my invoices/expenses, so it's safe to assume that I will not receive payment for the invoices due on July 1 by July 1. I cannot sue for payment on invoices which are not yet due. Once July 2 arrives, the invoices are late. As such, I can lump the stop check demand and the late payment demand into one claim, instead of 2. If I do receive payment by July 1, well, surprise surprise! Why even bother sending him the letters to demand payment if I am filing a claim anyway and even though he has said that he doesn't intend to pay me? I still have to do my part to try to recover the payment. The small claims advisor said that the time between filing and hearing is 60+ days. The photographer can still decide to pay me my invoices after he receives the demand letter and after he receives his court summons. If he does, I just cancel the claim. If not, well, the claim is still in the works and I am saving myself some time.
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Jun 26, 2013 20:03
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Update: Mailed off demand for payment letters yesterday (1 for the stopped checks, 1 for non/late payments) Filed with small claims court today My court date is scheduled for mid-September, and I hope things are really boring until then (i.e. he doesn't try to pull any more weird poo poo).
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Jul 3, 2013 23:25
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Any update, OP?
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Jul 13, 2013 05:07
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Sorry no update in a while, but nothing's really happened. The photographer signed for his service by certified mail on Friday (which took the court about a week to send out). That's nice to find out, since it saves me $50 for a personal process service. The 12th has passed without payment, which was the final due date I gave him for my remaining invoices. He has until Aug 1st to pay on the cancelled checks. These dates are the terms I gave him in the letters I mailed him on July 2nd. Tomorrow (Monday) is the 15th, so I'm curious to see if I receive an invoice from him later this week per his assertion on his .PDF letter. As I mentioned in my previous post, I am hoping things stay pretty boring, but who knows with this guy!
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Jul 15, 2013 06:40
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Stopping back in to say: no additional news or developments yet. e: 08/07 -- Just reiterating this. I haven't ditched the thread. Subjunctivitis fucked around with this message at 23:39 on Aug 7, 2013 |
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Jul 24, 2013 05:39
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I just got a letter from the photographer stating that he has requested a new court date (letter dated Sept 05, but I didn't receive it until now since I've moved and the PO had to forward it to me). The original date is set for this Wednesday, and I'm all ready to go... I can't really say I didn't expect him to file for a postponement.
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Sep 16, 2013 02:28
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Sounds like he considers this his version of "bleeding you" by battling you for the money. Even if you win, it will be pyrrhic victory. The judge will sentence him, he will delay- etc, etc until the money is literally pried from his fingers 1 year from now.
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Sep 16, 2013 07:33
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Yeah.... kinda. He's really just deliberately wasting my time. And filing for a postponement at the last minute is pretty true to his form. It's the only one he gets, though! Also, I'm curious to know which of these reasons he used to postpone the date: CA Small Claims Court posted:The court usually will postpone a scheduled hearing in the following situations: (1) the plaintiff hasn't' been able to serve the defendant, (2) the defendant wasn't served a sufficient number of days before the hearing date, (3) the defendant filed a claim of defendant and the plaintiff wasn't served with the defendant's claim at least five days before the hearing (unless the defendant was served with the plaintiff's claim less than ten days before the hearing, in which case the defendant may serve the plaintiff as late as the day before the hearing), or (4) the court determines that the parties desire to engage in mediation or other form of alternative dispute resolution. If you're unsure whether your particular reason may be a good enough reason for the court to postpone the hearing date, check with a small claims adviser in the your county where the claim was filed.
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Sep 16, 2013 09:00
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Most likely: 4, 3, 2 (lie)
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Sep 17, 2013 02:51
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Subjunctivitis posted:I just got a letter from the photographer stating that he has requested a new court date (letter dated Sept 05, but I didn't receive it until now since I've moved and the PO had to forward it to me). The original date is set for this Wednesday, and I'm all ready to go... I can't really say I didn't expect him to file for a postponement. Since the letter is from him are you sure he actually got it postponed and he isn't just trying to get you to miss the court session?
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Sep 17, 2013 05:02
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Thoguh posted:Since the letter is from him are you sure he actually got it postponed and he isn't just trying to get you to miss the court session? It crossed my mind, but his letter was dated within the appropriate time frame. Also, I think it's more likely that he'll want me to drop my case instead of waiting however many more days/weeks/months until the rescheduled hearing date. But it definitely is a move on his part to try to maneuver an upper-hand. I'll find out from the court tomorrow if the date has been rescheduled (since I haven't gotten anything from the court itself, yet). And to ONEMANWOLFPACK, I actually think #3 would likely be his reason. #4 would have some burden of proof on his part, and #2 is a bald-faced lie, since the court has the proof of service in hand which dates at less than 2 weeks after filing and not 10 days before the court date. However, with a bit of further research, I guess you can postpone a court date for pretty much any decent reason (work conflict, sickness, etc.). But the more requests for postponement, then the court becomes highly resistant to granting those requests. He could be trying to formulate some sort of counter-suit, but I really think he's just delaying to piss me off.
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Sep 17, 2013 08:03
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I will post an update within the next couple days.
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Dec 5, 2013 22:54
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Sorry, it's been over a month, but here's the lowdown. ---------------------------------------- My hearing was early December, and I got served with notice of his countersuit at the very last moment possible, of course. Before the hearing, the proctor? (not the bailiff or anything, just a court administrator) told those of us waiting that we needed to sign off on a waiver to accept or decline a temporary judge. The court uses temp judges (trained attorneys) for small claims. I signed "affirmative" and then he, directly behind me in line, declines the temp judge in favor of going before the commissioner. The commissioner oversees traffic court disputes and would get to us if he had time. Then in the hallway en route to that courtroom, he stopped me and asked, "Subjunctivitis, do you really want to be doing this?" and I said, "No, I just want to get paid." Then he went on about some stuff about the internship stuff, blah blah blah... you know the drill -- he wanted me to finish it, those projects I already worked on were still not finished projects when I finished them and that he still needed to fine-tune some things, that I was supposed to do additional free projects for him after the training was completed as a means of compensating him for the training... I told him that until I quit the internship situation, I was completely unaware of that whole compensation deal, and he didn't even tell me he expected compensation (in work or monetarily or otherwise) until he sent me that letter 3 weeks after I quit the situation. In the courtroom, another administrator took the case file to hand to the judge and told us to look at each others' evidence. The photographer wasn't too pleased by this. When we sat down and swapped our info, he huffed and puffed and said, "You don't have anything. You don't have a case." and went to the other side of the room to sit. The judge called my name (as plaintiff on the case), said that it would be very unlikely to get to us, since he had a lot of citations to go through yet. He asked how long it would take for me to present my side. I told him, "2 minutes." He then asked the photographer, which he said, "About 15 minutes. I think it's fairly involved." So at this point, I'm like, this guy is trying to delay the case, not get it heard, trying to get me to drop it, intimidate me, etc. Thankfully, the judge got around to hearing the case. I said what I've already said here, but in so many words -- he wrote 2 checks, stopped payment on them, then didn't pay me the rest of my invoices as well. The photographer said some of the obvious, as well -- I was supposed to finish the internship/training, I was also supposed to do more free work for him after training in order to compensate him, etc. I told the judge that I had no idea whatsoever that any sort of compensation was going to be involved, that as far as I knew and was concerned, our arrangement was mutually beneficial tit-for-tat, as it were, he trains me, I get work done for him while he trains me, and that I would have in no way agreed to the photographer's little training version if I had seen it as such on paper. At one point the photographer pulled out an old e-mail I sent to him. In it I had included a link to some Photoshop Before/After samples on my website and asked him to check it out -- "Tell me what you think!" I sent this to him after he told me he wanted a retoucher. He tells the judge that I sent him that e-mail as a matter of seeking his expertise and advice. He is only about half correct on that -- I was looking for a job, but if he had any feedback, I was also open to hear it. This is pretty typical in the industry, which, the more and more I hear from this guy, it seems like yeah, he takes a lot of photos and makes money doing it, but he really doesn't know much about the come-and-go and ebb-and-flow of the community of assistants, retouchers, digital techs, and photographers. Like, I can show up to a meeting of a bunch of photographers and come away with a grip of info about photoshop, billing, marketing, etc. that I didn't know when I went in and then not be charged by each of them for it. Most photographers expect assistants to ask questions. One photographer in town straight-up shows his assistants the invoices for 6-figure jobs he books and what money he's making from it. He also told the judge, "I am not only a wedding photographer, but also a commercial and celebrity photographer. I shot Persons X, Y, and Z and my photos have been in places A, B and C. I also went to Brooks Institute, which is like the Harvard or Yale of photography. I'm not trying to boast, but I'm just very well trained, educated and experienced -- it's obvious how someone would look to me for input and advice." (I paraphrase. And, BTW, Brooks is definitely NOT the Harvard or Yale of photography -- it's a very nice, very expensive, non-exclusive for-profit trade school.) The photographer also included charges to his fee that were for him reviewing my samples and discussing them with me on the phone about those samples. It's as if a prospective employer is going to dock your pay for time spent reviewing your resume and having an interview with you. Basically, I kept my mouth shut the whole time and let him run his, and I just stuck to the things that mattered, instead of pulling out newspapers, postcards and chewing gum as potential forms of evidence which may or may not allude to my own credibility. Overall, he had nothing bad to say about me, other than the fact that he believed that I was supposed to complete the training and compensate him for it, and that I didn't do those things. The judge ultimately ruled in my favor. He didn't award punitive damages, saying he believed that the photographer had an honest dispute on terms, but to next time get his poo poo in writing. The photographer asked if he could appeal and the judge said, "Well... yes. But you can't appeal the judgment on your case, since you lost. You have to appeal on the decision on the plaintiff's case." ------------------------------------- Later that day I sent him a quick note (e-mail) thanking him for being generally cordial and polite and that I would be asking for payment from him when I received the judgment in the mail. I basically wanted to keep things on the level as much as possible, but to also tell him I'm gonna come get my money, too. He responded to me with a thank you for the compliments but then went on to say things like, "I can't believe you lied!" and, "You should've talked to me before quitting. We could've worked something out, but it would've been at my discretion, though," and, "I'm going to file for an appeal." I ceased contact at that point. His whole "you should've tried to work things out with me" is a load of horseshit. I did. I asked him about the timeline for completing the training (though not about compensation terms, because I had no idea there was supposed to be any compensation) as well as training process. He either denied, dismissed, or evaded any inquiry or input I had. So cue me quitting the internship. ------------------------------------- So yeah. That's where I'm at. Waiting to see if he files for an appeal. Lawyers can be present at an appeal hearing, so I'm also curious to see if he gets one or if anyone even takes his case.
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Jan 13, 2014 07:31
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Do you expect he'll pay you in any event, or are you gonna have to get the sheriff's department to confiscate his furniture?
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Jan 13, 2014 07:58
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I expect the latter. I will be surprised if he just coughs it up.
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Jan 13, 2014 08:38
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What an rear end in a top hat. Does the judgment include legal fees? So the judge ordered him to pay you, and you have to wait for the judgment paperwork to come in the mail. At what point does he have to actually write you a check? And I thought he couldn't appeal? Or is it the decision only and not the amount, or vice versa?
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Jan 14, 2014 05:09
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You can spend years delaying payment on a judgement if the cost of perpetual litigation is less than the judgement amount. For small amounts I'm not sure how cost/time effective the stalling tactics are but a lawyer friend I know of has been trying to get payment on a done and settled case since 2002. It's been a never ending series of companies being destroyed and reformed and judges making illegal mistakes and counter suits and counter counter suits and general confusion among boxes of paper. Apparently the guy who lost has a lawyer in his family or something.
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Jan 17, 2014 02:32
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red19fire posted:What an rear end in a top hat. Does the judgment include legal fees? So the judge ordered him to pay you, and you have to wait for the judgment paperwork to come in the mail. At what point does he have to actually write you a check? And I thought he couldn't appeal? Or is it the decision only and not the amount, or vice versa? The legal fees are always awarded to the winner. I was awarded the amount of my invoices (for which I was suing), filing fees, mailing fees, and process service. He had 30 days from the date of judgment to pay up. He had 30 days from receipt of judgment in the mail to file for an appeal, and I just got an e-mail from him yesterday saying that he had filed for a appeal (true to form, he filed 3 days before the window to file closed). He is appealing on behalf of the decision made on my suit. He cannot appeal the decision made on his suit. So he's basically saying, "Nuh-uh, I don't owe him the money, like the other judge said." Both of our cases will get reheard, so he will have another opportunity to tell a judge that he thinks I should compensate him for the internship. I don't know anything about what Pyror on Fire is saying, but from what the court says, this next hearing is the last time these cases can be heard. So it should be done and done after the appeal hearing. (I don't know about him having a lawyer in the family, but I'm sure he got a bit of advice from someone he knows, and everything he's done so far is with easily-accessible information for going through the small claims process.)
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Jan 17, 2014 06:39
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