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Hey guys, can I post in this thread?karl fungus posted:I'm aware of Roman Catholic dialog with both Protestants and Eastern Orthodox, but is there any interaction at all between the various Protestant denominations and the Orthodox? My dad is a Lutheran pastor. He told me once that Luther tried to become bros with some Orthodox church, but they basically were all "who the heck is this guy? and why does he keep sending us letters?"
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Jun 12, 2013 00:27
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There's been dialogue between Anglicans and Orthodoxy for at least the last 150/160 years. You can read various Anglican/Orthodox agreed statements here. There's also an organization in England, the Fellowship of St. Alban & Sergius, which promotes Anglican/Orthodox dialogue. And there are some points of theological alignment. For example, my (Catholic) mom got an Orthodox pamphlet once that touted C.S. Lewis's more 'Orthodox' beliefs as expressed in Mere Christianity, especially about theosis. I also have a book, Participation in God, which traces theosis in historic Anglican theology. Also, apparently the Liturgy of Tikhon of Moscow, one of the modern Western Rites in use, is based in part on the BCP liturgy. (My mom has a sortof-friend in her SCA group who used to be an Orthodox monk, and I think taught her how to write icons; she once went to a monastery to help him teach it, and brought some pamphlets home. Apparently he's living a semi-hermetic lifestyle now.) Also, the next US Prayer Book revision is supposed to remove the Filioque, but we don't revise it that often (heck, there are still people who believe we should never have dropped the 1928 version), so we'll see how that shakes out. Keromaru5 fucked around with this message at 01:07 on Jun 12, 2013 |
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Jun 12, 2013 00:48
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I know more than a few LCMS pastors that have a fascination with Eastern Orthodoxy and a couple that actually converted. All of them are very liturgical/high church so I think thegloaming has it right at least from the guys I know. I'm a lasped LCMS Lutheran myself and did go to seminary for two years.
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Jun 12, 2013 00:58
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Keromaru5 posted:Also, the next US Prayer Book revision is supposed to remove the Filioque, but we don't revise it that often
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Jun 12, 2013 00:59
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HEGEL SMOKE A J posted:In the United States, a lot of ex-Evangelicals have joined the Orthodox Church because they are seeking a stronger weapon in the American culture wars. They know that the Church is conservative, which it is, so they expect that the Church is what Americans mean when they say "conservative," which it isn't. (Rod Dreher is probably the most famous.) I am solidly against this, for several reasons: obviously, because I'm so liberal I'm practically a Communist, but also because they're making the Church more Protestant--some of them have no idea who the saints are, for instance, or they speak disparagingly about what they see as superstition but what we see as necessary, integral parts of our religion. Not the best way to judge a group, I'll admit, but whenever I visit an Orthodox church again, it'll probably be the Greek one. Keromaru5 fucked around with this message at 01:04 on Jun 12, 2013 |
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Jun 12, 2013 01:00
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Arsenic Lupin posted:I realize this is highly un-liturgical of me, but I stay silent during that one bit of the Nicene Creed, as a token ecumenical gesture.
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Jun 12, 2013 01:03
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Keromaru5 posted:I hate to admit it, but this is a lot of what has put me off from going to the local OCA church. For one, it's the South, so there aren't a lot of Orthodox churches to visit, and it's in a remote part of town. For another, whenever I've gone to its Facebook group, its members struck me as that kind of culture warrior, and come across as needlessly reactionary and triumphalistic.  But seriously, I'm glad that most of my church is either cradle Orthodox, long-term converts, a few ex-Lutherans, and some ex-Catholics like me. Christ am I glad.
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Jun 12, 2013 01:07
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HEGEL SMOKE A J posted:Find a ROCOR church; they're reactionary in a different way. Hope you enjoy hearing about the Masonic conspiracy! And yeah, the people in the OCA group struck me that way, too.
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Jun 12, 2013 01:11
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Keromaru5 posted:There's been dialogue between Anglicans and Orthodoxy for at least the last 150/160 years. You can read various Anglican/Orthodox agreed statements here. There's also an organization in England, the Fellowship of St. Alban & Sergius, which promotes Anglican/Orthodox dialogue. We use the Liturgy of St Tikhon at my church. I haven't gone through my copy of the 1928 American BCP word-for-word but off hand I can't think of anything that's different from our Liturgy, except for the Epiclesis & the fact we have Confession.
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Jun 12, 2013 01:26
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Cool, the thread's here. It's not exactly a denomination, but I'd love a paragraph on universalism in the OP. Arsenic Lupin explained it here and it was one the biggest  moments in the RC thread for me, since I didn't even realize my belief system had a name. I'm not sure if you can call universalism a denomination by itself, but it describes my belief system to a T, so you can go ahead and put my name under the paragraph.
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Jun 12, 2013 02:50
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fade5 posted:Cool, the thread's here. It's not so much a denomination as, I don't know, theology I guess? Anyway it'd be confusing to have that in the OP, since it sounds like Unitarian Universalism.
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Jun 12, 2013 03:15
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Mo Tzu posted:It's not so much a denomination as, I don't know, theology I guess?
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Jun 12, 2013 03:29
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Mo Tzu posted:It's not so much a denomination as, I don't know, theology I guess? Anyway it'd be confusing to have that in the OP, since it sounds like Unitarian Universalism. Yeah, it's a heretical belief, not a form of liturgical Christianity. Unitarian Universalists are not even Christian, and that's going by a very liberal definition of the term.
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Jun 12, 2013 03:45
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thegloaming posted:Yeah, it's a heretical belief, not a form of liturgical Christianity. The UUs aren't Christians, no do they claim to be. An individual UU may or may not be; I've known pagan, atheist, and Jewish UUs.
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Jun 12, 2013 03:53
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How are Mormons regarded by the other various lineages of Christianity?
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Jun 12, 2013 03:57
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karl fungus posted:How are Mormons regarded by the other various lineages of Christianity? Grand majority, Catholics included, do not consider them Christian. The Catholic Church doesn't recognize Mormon baptism as valid, and pretty much any other church's baptisms are considered just as valid as ones done in the Catholic Church.
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Jun 12, 2013 04:02
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thegloaming posted:Yeah, it's a heretical belief, not a form of liturgical Christianity. Unitarian Universalists are not even Christian, and that's going by a very liberal definition of the term. It's only heretical if you're enough of an exclusivist sperglord to actually believe that your definition of "liturgical Christianity" alone is valid.
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Jun 12, 2013 04:25
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karl fungus posted:How are Mormons regarded by the other various lineages of Christianity? When you start adding books that weren't there before, you're going to have issues.
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Jun 12, 2013 04:40
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Lutha Mahtin posted:It's only heretical if you're enough of an exclusivist sperglord to actually believe that your definition of "liturgical Christianity" alone is valid. I've never heard of any Lutheran, Anglican, Catholic, or Orthodox catechism or declaration of faith that promotes universalism. Those are the groups mentioned in this thread, but I was pretty certain it was the condemned by all mainstream Christian groups. But thanks for the name-calling and setting a bad precedent for this thread already by page 2!  I was only correcting the poster that "universalism" isn't a Christian denomination.Anyway, within my exclusivist sperglord mystery cult, there have been writers who have supported universalism and they have not been condemned, so others are right that it's a gray area. Officially, though, I've always learned it to be a heresy. By the way, heresy is just the term to describe something that isn't apart of official doctrine (literally, an "opinion"), so people shouldn't think we're using it in the same sense that it's used in Warhammer 40K. 
Rush_shirt fucked around with this message at 05:42 on Jun 12, 2013 |
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Jun 12, 2013 04:58
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karl fungus posted:How are Mormons regarded by the other various lineages of Christianity? I'd say a lot of them see Mormonism as heretical at best, non-Christian at worst. Their theology on things like the Trinity & Christology is definitely very different from most of historical Christianity. Moscow Mule fucked around with this message at 05:34 on Jun 12, 2013 |
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Jun 12, 2013 05:32
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Add me to the list, ELCA Lutheran, wife is a pastor so I can use her as a source if there are any questions. And that graph about ELCA membership needs to be extended, those membership declines are peanuts compared to what's happened in the last few years. Is there any good resources/opinions regarding the second vatican council? I find it fascinating all the bridge-building that it seemed to do. (bridges that were apparently swiftly burned by the next pope)
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Jun 12, 2013 05:51
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thegloaming posted:I've never heard of any Lutheran, Anglican, Catholic, or Orthodox catechism or declaration of faith that promotes universalism. Those are the groups mentioned in this thread, but I was pretty certain it was the condemned by all mainstream Christian groups. You're proposing a binary here: "officially promoted by the church" versus "condemned by the Church". There's a wide, wide area in between, and that area includes "the church doesn't express a dogma, but leaves it up to the conscience of the individual believer." Which is certainly the case for the Episcopal church with regard to universalism -- the church doesn't take a position either for or against.
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Jun 12, 2013 05:54
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Arsenic Lupin posted:You're proposing a binary here: "officially promoted by the church" versus "condemned by the Church". There's a wide, wide area in between, and that area includes "the church doesn't express a dogma, but leaves it up to the conscience of the individual believer." Which is certainly the case for the Episcopal church with regard to universalism -- the church doesn't take a position either for or against. 
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Jun 12, 2013 06:01
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Hey, the only thing we commit to is "Would anybody like another martini?"
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Jun 12, 2013 06:10
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fade5 posted:Cool, the thread's here. thegloaming posted:Anyway, within my exclusivist sperglord mystery cult, there have been writers who have supported universalism and they have not been condemned, so others are right that it's a gray area. Officially, though, I've always learned it to be a heresy. 
HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 11:09 on Jun 12, 2013 |
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Jun 12, 2013 06:49
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Like it or not, 'heresy' is a word with an extremely violent history and has come to mean much more than 'divergent opinion'. Also at least among the OO, each church will tend to define its own dogma/canon to a large extent, and it would be a mistake to assume that they are uniform.Smoking Crow posted:When you start adding books that weren't there before, you're going to have issues. Ethiopia has added plenty of books, they just don't get Biblical status. The range of non-Bible canonical texts is often one of the things that marks Orthodoxy from other churches. I'll talk about Haile Selassie and the rastas when I have more time because it's interesting.
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Jun 12, 2013 07:52
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I was talking about how Mormonism has books which almost replace the canon to the point where the canon is almost useless. I'm guessing there's no Ethiopian Book of Mormon equivalent?
Smoking Crow fucked around with this message at 15:38 on Jun 12, 2013 |
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Jun 12, 2013 15:29
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Smoking Crow posted:I was talking about how Mormonism has books which almost replace the canon to the point where the canon is almost useless. I'm guessing there's no Ethiopian Book of Mormon equivalent? For sure. I didn't mean to suggest you were wrong, just to expand because different ideas of canonicity are interesting.
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Jun 12, 2013 15:55
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Great OP Hegel. Glad to see you make this thread. You can put me in the Catholic, Roman, Part 1 category. Like I said in my original A/T thread I was an cradle catholic that stopped practicing. After some years as a practical agnostic, I began a spiritual search that included stops in Buddhism and Protestantism and then came back to being Catholic. When I was younger, I chafed against many of the church's teachings, but these days I support them and I think I'm starting to understand why they are there.
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Jun 12, 2013 16:16
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Hegel Smoke, when you get a chance, I want to know more about the crucifixes with extra blood.
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Jun 12, 2013 16:31
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What are some common rites in your respective traditions, and what is the purpose of them in the context of the faith?
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Jun 12, 2013 17:14
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karl fungus posted:What are some common rites in your respective traditions, and what is the purpose of them in the context of the faith? A tangential question that I could google but I'm not sure I'd get good context: could someone please define "rite"? I know the word but in my native language it's apparently used slightly differently than in English.
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Jun 12, 2013 18:43
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MoraleHazard posted:Great OP Hegel. Glad to see you make this thread. Arsenic Lupin posted:Hegel Smoke, when you get a chance, I want to know more about the crucifixes with extra blood. http://lange-photography.photoshelter.com/image/I0000Xfl6W4RCLpU Valiantman posted:A tangential question that I could google but I'm not sure I'd get good context: could someone please define "rite"? I know the word but in my native language it's apparently used slightly differently than in English. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 21:43 on Jun 12, 2013 |
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Jun 12, 2013 21:39
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HEGEL SMOKE A J posted:This is in the church where I grew up, and it's not as much blood as it's possible to get, but to the outside observer it's still "marginally creepy." You can't see it in the photo, but the blood is running down his legs. Talk about Muscular Christianity. Are the Greek Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches in communion? My godmother converted so she could recieve Mass (if that's what the GOC says) in Greece, but I think someone upthread implied that they weren't.
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Jun 12, 2013 21:46
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House Louse posted:Are the Greek Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches in communion? My godmother converted so she could recieve Mass (if that's what the GOC says) in Greece, but I think someone upthread implied that they weren't.
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Jun 12, 2013 21:50
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HEGEL SMOKE A J posted:The English word, by itself with no more context, means "ritual." When you say "Byzantine Rite Catholic" or something though, it means the body of liturgical tradition--not only how a group of people celebrates the liturgy, but also which saints they venerate, what happens on what day, etc. So in the broader sense it's the entire system of customs and rituals and holy days and all that? Are the Rites usually defined by books/manuals or are they more like undefined traditions?
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Jun 12, 2013 22:01
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From what I understand, it went from undefined tradition to being fully canonized. This is why Christmas is on the 25th, and why stuff like St. Bridget's Day in Ireland is close to the Summer Solstice.
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Jun 12, 2013 22:09
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Valiantman posted:So in the broader sense it's the entire system of customs and rituals and holy days and all that? quote:Are the Rites usually defined by books/manuals or are they more like undefined traditions?
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Jun 12, 2013 22:12
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And as someone mentioned upthread, different provinces in the Anglican Communion have their own versions of the Book of Common Prayer, and sometimes different service books. New Zealand has its own. The US has one, which itself includes Rite I--traditional language--and Rite II--modernized language, and more Eucharistic prayers*--plus "Enriching Our Worship," plus parishes that still use the 1928 BCP, plus parishes authorized to develop their own liturgies. England still uses the 1662 version, but also has a set of services in modern English called Common Worship (which I personally think is better-written than the US BCP, but it desperately needs a condensed version. There's a whole volume just for daily prayer!). So yeah. The ideal is that we're all united by common prayer, but there can be a lot of variety in how that common prayer is carried out. * This includes the infamous "Star Wars" prayer, though personally I like to think of it as the "Carl Sagan" prayer, and then cringe when I hear it.
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Jun 12, 2013 22:48
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HEGEL SMOKE A J posted:Nope, they're not. The Greek Orthodox are part of the Eastern Orthodox, and the Eastern Orthodox and the Catholic Church have been angry at each other since before 1054. Each group thinks the other's sacraments are valid though, so in an emergency they can receive the sacraments of the other group. Maybe I'm misremembering? Thanks for the quick reply.
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Jun 12, 2013 22:52
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