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The thing with "well you don't see any alternatives" is that it's all Taylor's hella biased POV. Of course we the audience don't see any other outs, she doesn't see any outs.
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Aug 12, 2017 09:46
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Calef posted:Re Taylor's flaws: she's stubborn, uncompromising, and reckless. She refuses to submit to a higher authority. She repeatedly justifies morally dubious behavior by mentally categorizing people opposing her as bullies. She's a *deeply flawed character*. The tragedy of Worm is that she never really overcomes her trauma from being bullied--she *turns into one*. Thank you for this because this is exactly what I expected. Those three things are not flaws. Nothing of what you list is actually, within the text, a flaw. Consider the following. Taylor is stubborn, uncompromising, and reckless. However, she maintains her friendships with the Undersiders pretty easily and seems to have been unfairly maligned by almost-certainly-a-sociopath Shadow Stalker. She is stubborn and uncompromising but also, in just about every situation she enters, wins. She is reckless but every situation she leaps into, she comes out ahead. These are not flaws. These flaws are basically textbook examples of the anger issues flaw I outlined earlier. "This character gets very angry very easily, but they cannot be baited or provoked" with a little dash of getting angry helps them achieve their goals. She refuses to submit to a higher authority. This is a world where the higher authorities are depicted as being out of touch, ruthlessly utilitarian, and corrupt to their very core. Opposing them is not a flaw. Opposing them is heroic. She categorises other people as bullies. This is a world where the vast majority of people who wield power on either side of the cape divide are bullies or otherwise complicit. The 'tragedy of Worm' is a meme. Like that Worm is 'grimdark'. As Ytlaya says, Taylor has flaws in the sense that I guess there are parts of Worm where someone says 'Taylor, this is a bad thing about you'. She does not have flaws in the sense that they actually make things hard for her or where she does things that the reader knows is wrong. I've just finished re-reading a book called Maelstrom by Peter Watts that has a protagonist who is very similar to Skitter by the name of Lenie Clarke. She wears a dark bodysuit, has a creepy mask, history of trauma, views the world in a bad way (but the world is actually not so great anyway), wants to take on the people who hurt her which causes her to lash out with justification or otherwise, superpowers that she uses in intelligent ways, scares the hell out of people. Now, there is a scene where Lenie Clarke's flaws come back to bite her in a big way, even though the audience can see that her train of logic is fine from her perspective. Lenie meets a father and his daughter in a cabin and spends some time with them. Lenie begins to assume that the father is molesting his daughter, misinterpreting innocent statements. This leads to Lenie launching a rescue attempt and losing the fight. Afterwards, nursing her wounds, Lenie is still sure that the father is a child molester and that she should save the girl, but we can see that her 'if I did it again, I'd win' bravado is a result of her trauma. Eventually, when she gets up and walks away, we can see that her reasons are inaccurate self-justifications for her to retain her feelings of control and power. This is a flaw. If this was Worm, the father would actually be a child molester or, if not that, he'd be some other kind of Bad Dude and therefore everything would be validated and the flaw of 'reacts violently to the perception of child endangerment' wouldn't actually be a flaw at all. BENGHAZI 2 posted:The thing with "well you don't see any alternatives" is that it's all Taylor's hella biased POV. Of course we the audience don't see any other outs, she doesn't see any outs. This is weak justification. All POV characters in any text are biased. Taylor cannot be a tragic character without realising what she's giving up, hurting or so on -- that's kind of the core part of something being a tragedy. If Taylor's flaws never reach up and slap her in the face, they can't really be said to be flaws. If her flaws never result in Taylor's judgement erring and resulting in some manner of misfortune, then there's nothing tragic happening. She's a human teenager, not a cruise missile.
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Aug 12, 2017 10:38
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Additionally, I think the idea that Worm is a story about a bullied individual becoming a bully but it's okay because she uses her bullying powers for good is a very weird one. I can't say it's inaccurate but I don't think it's accurate either.
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Aug 12, 2017 11:05
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I can't tell if that avatar/text came before or after this exchange...
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Aug 12, 2017 12:33
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The thing about Taylor is that she is possibly the best gritty Batman ever. The thing thing about Batman is that he is more than a bit of a mary sue, but he is a heck of a lot of fun to read about.
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Aug 12, 2017 14:16
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Milky Moor posted:Taylor is stubborn, uncompromising, and reckless. However, she maintains her friendships with the Undersiders pretty easily and seems to have been unfairly maligned by almost-certainly-a-sociopath Shadow Stalker. Milky Moor posted:She is stubborn and uncompromising but also, in just about every situation she enters, wins. She is reckless but every situation she leaps into, she comes out ahead. These are not flaws. These flaws are basically textbook examples of the anger issues flaw I outlined earlier. "This character gets very angry very easily, but they cannot be baited or provoked" with a little dash of getting angry helps them achieve their goals. Milky Moor posted:She refuses to submit to a higher authority. This is a world where the higher authorities are depicted as being out of touch, ruthlessly utilitarian, and corrupt to their very core. Opposing them is not a flaw. Opposing them is heroic. Milky Moor posted:The 'tragedy of Worm' is a meme. Like that Worm is 'grimdark'. In the end, she seems to lose her morality except to avoid being worse than the last time she was pushed to her limits. Which is often. Milky Moor posted:As Ytlaya says, Taylor has flaws in the sense that I guess there are parts of Worm where someone says 'Taylor, this is a bad thing about you'. She does not have flaws in the sense that they actually make things hard for her or where she does things that the reader knows is wrong. Milky Moor posted:This is weak justification. All POV characters in any text are biased. Taylor cannot be a tragic character without realising what she's giving up, hurting or so on -- that's kind of the core part of something being a tragedy. If Taylor's flaws never reach up and slap her in the face, they can't really be said to be flaws. If her flaws never result in Taylor's judgement erring and resulting in some manner of misfortune, then there's nothing tragic happening. Milky Moor posted:Additionally, I think the idea that Worm is a story about a bullied individual becoming a bully but it's okay because she uses her bullying powers for good is a very weird one. I can't say it's inaccurate but I don't think it's accurate either. Milky Moor posted:Honestly, it's hard to describe how much she grows, and I think even the Worm wiki -- which I used to contribute heavily to -- even mentions she doesn't change much and remains the same person despite going through everything that she does.
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Aug 12, 2017 15:13
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Doctor nailed it, I think. It's important to reexamine what Taylor's "successes" actually bought her. Yes, she wins *fights*, but the relentless escalation of the story brings her to a point where she is literally stripped of her humanity--where she's forcing everyone to cooperate with her--, and then Tattletale (again) figures out how to actually defeat the bad guy. Like, do you actually think she gets a happy ending? What do you think the *point* of Worm is?
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Aug 12, 2017 18:31
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Calef posted:What do you think the *point* of Worm is? Tinkers are bullshit.
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Aug 12, 2017 19:04
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Calef posted:Doctor nailed it, I think. also the hero gets double tapped at the end and has to leave behind everyone she cares about, all of whom think she's dead happy! anyway in the interest of derailing the derail what do y'all think Worm 2 is gonna be about slash what do you hope to see plot wise i hope it's just about tattletale managing a criminal empire, like an office comedy except somebody farts sarin
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Aug 12, 2017 19:13
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I think it'd be poetic if it was about a bad hero instead of a good villain.
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Aug 12, 2017 19:26
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20 arcs of Imp and the Heartbroken loving with Teacher. Every arc has a different guest star from Worm and it always ends with Teacher getting kicked down an elevator shaft.
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Aug 12, 2017 19:28
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Doctor w-rw-rw- posted:I think it'd be poetic if it was about a bad hero instead of a good villain. Imagine Hong Kong Phooey but he's trying to be a villain and keeps accidentally saving everyone and has a really heroic looking power
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Aug 12, 2017 19:36
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Milky Moor posted:Thank you for this because this is exactly what I expected. Yeah, but my point is that this is a flaw of writing; a writer always has the option of tailoring a heavily flawed character's setting in such a way that their flaws are justified. Though I would argue that many of these things are intended to be viewed as flaws in the text. A good example is the heroes; most of them are actually good people and it turns out she just got exposed to a couple of the worst ones early on. And even though there's corruption at the top, Coil was working for the same guys! If I had to sum up Taylor's issues, I would say that she is very bad at empathy and seeing things from others' perspectives. She really needed someone who was willing to openly argue/disagree with her - like Clockblocker - as a friend early on, since most of the Undersiders just enable her and/or get pulled along by her momentum. edit: I feel like Panacea can be seen as the sort of anti-Taylor, in that she ends up finally coming to terms with her issues and growing as a person. Calef posted:It's important to reexamine what Taylor's "successes" actually bought her. Yes, she wins *fights*, but the relentless escalation of the story brings her to a point where she is literally stripped of her humanity--where she's forcing everyone to cooperate with her--, and then Tattletale (again) figures out how to actually defeat the bad guy. It's also important to keep in mind that she often wins due to total luck and narrative convenience (like with Brian's second trigger). Also, one could argue that all her planning and preparation during the timeskip (where she refused to actually form any meaningful connections with any of her teammates, except arguably Golem) was completely meaningless, since it indirectly triggered Scion's rampage (which killed way more people than the S1000 could have). While Scion's rampage would have occurred at some point regardless of her actions, it still means her actions were essentially meaningless. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Aug 12, 2017 |
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Aug 12, 2017 21:23
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Calef posted:Doctor nailed it, I think. I think most people would argue that playing an instrumental role in killing the Thing That Will Destroy Every Earth and then getting her passenger removed via gunshot brain surgery and then living in an alternate reality where her mom is still alive is a pretty happy ending. Or, at least, as happy as things could get given the circumstances. Why do you think this isn't a happy ending? Are you one of those weird people who think it is the final moments of Taylor as she lies there bleeding out from Contesa's gunshot wound? That's pretty weird, my dude, and also not supported by anything in the text. If Worm has a point, which is hard because it is so long with ideas that change wildly from the beginning of the story to the end (Tinkers, hello), it is something along the lines of: being a monster is fine and perhaps even good if there are people who are worse than you. It could be: continuing the cycle of trauma is a good thing if you are traumatising someone worse than you? Worm is messy in that sense and I'd wager that, if WB ever gets a good editor and moves towards some kind of release, there'll be a more consistent narrative focus to the 'point' of Worm. As it is, a first draft updated on a weekly basis, inconsistencies and flaws in the writing are to be expected. BENGHAZI 2 posted:also the hero gets double tapped at the end and has to leave behind everyone she cares about, all of whom think she's dead This is incorrect. It's telling that when you ask people what her flaws are you get: she has not-flaws, she does not get a happy ending, and the story continually escalates. Anakin Skywalker has more believable flaws and a more coherent tragic arc than Taylor does. Ytlaya posted:It's also important to keep in mind that she often wins due to total luck and narrative convenience (like with Brian's second trigger). Also, one could argue that all her planning and preparation during the timeskip (where she refused to actually form any meaningful connections with any of her teammates, except arguably Golem) was completely meaningless, since it indirectly triggered Scion's rampage (which killed way more people than the S1000 could have). While Scion's rampage would have occurred at some point regardless of her actions, it still means her actions were essentially meaningless. I think it's also important to note that the sheer scale of the Golden Morning means that trying to argue "she mind-controlled everyone to stop the death of countless Earths because it was the literal only way to stop Scion" is, again, absolutely not a flaw. The Weaver arc where she's with the New York (?) Protectorate is maybe the one bit of Worm where I can't remember anything about the text. There's the Behemoth fight, and I think they all go on a talk show? She kills Alexandria and ends up in sort-of-jail, [scene missing], Behemoth, [scene missing], the showdown with Jack Slash? BENGHAZI 2 posted:anyway in the interest of derailing the derail what do y'all think Worm 2 is gonna be about slash what do you hope to see plot wise I expect that we'll see something to do with Teacher, the Third Entity and so on. The dormant Endbringers too, probably. I don't think we'll see Skitter. If we do, however, I am pretty sure it will be in some way that proves that her final interlude is all a lie of some sort. It could be possible Worm 2 will be set on one of the other Earths, one we haven't heard about. I'm not sure the post-apocalyptic Earth Bet is the best setting for a sequel. However, I feel there is promise for a story about heroes trying to do the right thing despite the difficulties. However, that feels obvious, and WB is pretty good about not going for the immediately obvious. I feel like Dragon's ending was resolved too happily and too quickly, so, it wouldn't surprise me something happens there. Given that Teacher removed Richter's safeguards, I could see Teacher having made a copy of Dragon. Has he said whether it's a direct sequel or a more thematic sequel? My hope is that he branches out from Worm/Pact/Twig and tries something that isn't first-person present tense.
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Aug 13, 2017 01:29
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Didn't wildbow say at some point that The gunshots basically gave her permanent unfixable brain damage and she's in a coma somewhere, with Tattletale and the others secretly looking after her body, but he made it a bit too subtle? I liked Worm, but I'm not sure I really want Worm2...
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Aug 13, 2017 01:34
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Nettle Soup posted:Didn't wildbow say at some point that The gunshots basically gave her permanent unfixable brain damage and she's in a coma somewhere, with Tattletale and the others secretly looking after her body, but he made it a bit too subtle? He says a lot of things outside the text. It's hard to tell what is legitimate stuff he didn't include and what stems from trying to deflect criticism post-hoc. quote:I liked Worm, but I'm not sure I really want Worm2... Where do you go with Worm2? Like, with everything that happened in Worm, going all the way from street gang violence to 'the actual end of all Earths ever', where do you go?
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Aug 13, 2017 01:45
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Thanks for sacrificing your humanity to save reality Taylor, here's two in the dome, also you have no purpose anymore because this thing you built your life around has been ripped away, you're welcome
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Aug 13, 2017 01:53
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BENGHAZI 2 posted:Thanks for sacrificing your humanity to save reality Taylor, here's two in the dome, also you have no purpose anymore because this thing you built your life around has been ripped away, you're welcome But Worm isn't a tragedy because everything always goes Taylor's way in the end. 
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Aug 13, 2017 02:05
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Milky Moor posted:He says a lot of things outside the text. It's hard to tell what is legitimate stuff he didn't include and what stems from trying to deflect criticism post-hoc. There's some potentially interesting big-deal antagonists still around, like Teacher, Sleeper, the Simurgh, and Blue Woman.
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Aug 13, 2017 02:06
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Teacher and his organization seems like the most obvious plot hook for a sequel. I'd also expect to see more of the aftermath of both entities being dead. Powers going wrong, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if Worm 2 ended with all powers disappearing for good.
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Aug 13, 2017 02:19
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BENGHAZI 2 posted:Thanks for sacrificing your humanity to save reality Taylor, here's two in the dome, also you have no purpose anymore because this thing you built your life around has been ripped away, you're welcome Again, this is inaccurate. Taylor was not killed by Contessa. The final chapter is of Taylor in paradise with all of her mental faculties intact. This is like arguing that the ending of Better Than Life is a sad ending because Lister is no longer on Red Dwarf and is living with the woman he loves. Silver2195 posted:There's some potentially interesting big-deal antagonists still around, like Teacher, Sleeper, the Simurgh, and Blue Woman. True. My worry would be that they are all things we've already seen before or would be similar enough to Worm1 to feel like they had been done before. Blue Woman could be the most interesting of that group, I think, because it hooks back into one of the ideas that Worm sort of forgot about up until the very end, the thing about there being multiple Earths.
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Aug 13, 2017 02:24
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Milky Moor posted:Again, this is inaccurate. Taylor was not killed by Contessa. The final chapter is of Taylor in paradise with all of her mental faculties intact. she's missing an arm, shes got holes in her head, and her purpose in life is gone, also she knows exactly one person on an entire planet paradise
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Aug 13, 2017 02:25
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BENGHAZI 2 posted:she's missing an arm, shes got holes in her head, and her purpose in life is gone, also she knows exactly one person on an entire planet Claiming that people missing arms or with disfigurements can't be happy is a radical position, I'll give you that. However, in the final chapter, she actually has two arms as there is direct mention of her having "two hands". She also does not have holes in her head but slight dimples. And it's at least two people, actually. Her father is there with her. Taylor is having a happy family reunion. I'm fairly sure she even glimpses Regent among the crowds, too. This is not even talking about that Taylor's purpose in life, as Skitter and everything that came with it, is seemingly considered by many as to be Taylor's key flaw. Your reading is based on an incomplete understanding of the text. Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 02:41 on Aug 13, 2017 |
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Aug 13, 2017 02:31
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Milky Moor posted:Your reading is based on an incomplete understanding of the text. She progressively threw away everything that defined her until there was so little left that an alien computer thought it was her and functioned as her, then bullied a planet-killer into suicide, when her entire worldview seems to focus on being the victim and hating bullies. She has a lot of internalized self-loathing, and she ends the story probably alive, but not necessarily any better than where she started.
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Aug 13, 2017 02:51
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Doctor w-rw-rw- posted:Your reading is based on an incomplete personality. As always, your zealous defence of someone else's work never disappoints. Imagine thinking that killing Scion wasn't the right thing to do and actually a sign of how bad a person Taylor is. Imagine only being able to defend a text by pointing to the secret knowledge of the IRC community. Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 03:02 on Aug 13, 2017 |
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Aug 13, 2017 02:57
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No one is arguing that killing Scion was the wrong thing to do. We are simply collectively puzzled that you think both the text *and* subtext of Worm screams that Taylor's path to victory was morally justified. Like, maybe read the epilogue again? Or maybe even the entire last arc?
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Aug 13, 2017 03:08
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Calef posted:No one is arguing that killing Scion was the wrong thing to do. We are simply collectively puzzled that you think both the text *and* subtext of Worm screams that Taylor's path to victory was morally justified. Given my discussion with BENGHAZI 2, I think it is clear that I have read the epilogue. I am not the one arguing that Taylor exists at the end of the story stranded on an alien Earth without an arm, after all. I am puzzled by your second sentence given that it is not what I have said. You may wish to indicate directly where I have said as such (I have not used the word moral in any of my posts on the subject; your task may be a difficult one). What do you think the 'text and subtext' of Worm is? I am not inaccurate.
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Aug 13, 2017 03:21
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Milky Moor posted:Given my discussion with BENGHAZI 2, I think it is clear that I have read the epilogue. I am not the one arguing that Taylor exists at the end of the story stranded on an alien Earth without an arm, after all. quote:If Worm has a point, which is hard because it is so long with ideas that change wildly from the beginning of the story to the end (Tinkers, hello), it is something along the lines of: being a monster is fine and perhaps even good if there are people who are worse than you. It could be: continuing the cycle of trauma is a good thing if you are traumatising someone worse than you? Where exactly did I misrepresent you? Also, her other arm is artificial in the epilogue. Maybe actually go reread it?
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Aug 13, 2017 03:31
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Calef posted:Where exactly did I misrepresent you? That quote does not say that Taylor is morally justified. In fact, it says the opposite. "It is okay to be a bad person if there are other people who you think are worse than you". Is that second part supposed to be a gotcha? Does having Taylor possessing an artificial arm somehow shoot down my point that Taylor ends the story with two arms? Are you implying that Taylor should only have one arm as an artificial replacement is a bad thing? Can amputees not have happy endings? This seems like a strange point to make, to me. Reminder that the only other character with extensive cybernetics in Worm is Defiant, who actually improves as a person as a result of his enhancements. Similarly, Taylor's artificial limb is a sign of her growing as a person and becoming better. In that sense, Worm is not Star Wars where the machine destroys the man. You can do better, Overwatch avatar or not. Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 03:51 on Aug 13, 2017 |
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Aug 13, 2017 03:43
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Milky Moor posted:Claiming that people missing arms or with disfigurements can't be happy is a radical position, I'll give you that. You should probably lead the last wpiloge where she has a fake arm and hates it and isn't actually happy and her last line is that she thinks maybe someday she'll be okay For someone who complains about everyone else's reading off the text you are real bad at knowing what actually happens
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Aug 13, 2017 04:13
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Also holy poo poo happy family reunion you REALLY need to re-read that scene because that isn't at all what happens
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Aug 13, 2017 04:14
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Milky Moor posted:That quote does not say that Taylor is morally justified. In fact, it says the opposite. "It is okay to be a bad person if there are other people who you think are worse than you". Jesus Christ you're fuckin insufferable
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Aug 13, 2017 04:14
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Compare: "It is okay to be a bad person if there are other people who you think are worse than you". "It is morally justifiable to be a bad person if there are other people who you think are worse than you". Are these statements meaningfully different? Regarding the arm thing: she does not have a robotic arm. I'm not sure why you've chosen this hill to die on, but, as far as I could tell, you were arguing she was not missing an arm. She is. She also has a fake, plastic replacement arm. Maybe everyone is right? I honestly don't know why you brought this up in the post I was responding to. Regarding the text/subtext of Worm: "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" works fairly well. Worm is a tragedy: it's a cautionary tale about how much damage can be done by convincing oneself that the ends justify the means. Note that Worm *isnt* an indictment of consequentialism itself--just that people can and do use that sort of logic to delude themselves into thinking they are right. Textually, the story traces this damage, both to Taylor's own moral compass, and to those around her, over nigh constant escalation that is often derived from or even instigated by Taylor's own choices. It's one thing to disagree that this is the point of Worm, it's another to claim Worm communicated this poorly. I suspect you actually believe the latter, and if so, then *just say that^. Having a different opinion is cool and good. But your suggested reading of the text actually doesn't have any support.
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Aug 13, 2017 04:18
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Calef posted:Compare: "It is okay to be a bad person if there are other people who you think are worse than you". It's almost like he's just an rear end in a top hat
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Aug 13, 2017 04:21
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BENGHAZI 2 posted:You should probably lead the last wpiloge where she has a fake arm and hates it and isn't actually happy and her last line is that she thinks maybe someday she'll be okay Incorrect. quote:She spoke her thoughts aloud. “I think… there’s a lot of stuff bothering me.” This is not an unhappy ending. This is called an optimistic ending. It's essentially the same ending as Shinji from Neon Genesis Evangelion, where he figures out that he can learn to be okay. Taylor Hebert is much the same character. Given that people in this very thread have argued that Taylor's big flaw is that she doesn't acknowledge her problems, it is strange -- but honestly not surprising given that we have gone well past the point where criticising a text is read as a personal attack -- that the repudiation of that ignorance is seen by those very same people as an unhappy ending. Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 04:25 on Aug 13, 2017 |
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Aug 13, 2017 04:23
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An optimistic ending isn't necessarily a happy ending either. Taylor had to lose literally everything in order to realize that she was a completely unrepentant monster, and is only starting to repair the burned bridges with her father. She realizes she was a complete utter and unrepentant monster that wrought more destruction than built anything, and is still struggling with the guilt of that. That's not exactly a happy ending.
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Aug 13, 2017 04:31
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Thank Christ you're here to explain this to us all, thank you for taking time out of your day oh wise master
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Aug 13, 2017 04:31
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berenzen posted:An optimistic ending isn't necessarily a happy ending either. Taylor had to lose literally everything in order to realize that she was a completely unrepentant monster, and is only starting to repair the burned bridges with her father. She realizes she was a complete utter and unrepentant monster that wrought more destruction than built anything, and is still struggling with the guilt of that. That's not exactly a happy ending. Also, calling the scene with her alternate Earth mom a family reunion is massively stupid because it's not a reunion. She's never met this woman before, shes basically approaching a stranger and hoping she doesn't get pushed away. Her dad doesnt even go over because it hurts too much to see her But that's a happy family reunion I guess because we're all wrong about worm
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Aug 13, 2017 04:33
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Anyway twig rules
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Aug 13, 2017 04:39
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BENGHAZI 2 posted:Thank Christ you're here to explain this to us all, thank you for taking time out of your day oh wise master Thank you. I'm happy to help.
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Aug 13, 2017 04:42
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