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thespaceinvader posted:5 endbringers is obvious. 5 groups, I don't think we actually know yet, but... Undersiders, PRT/Protectorate/Wards, Cauldron, Thanda, Yangban? I anticipate Scion growing to the size of a skyscraper. Then 5 groups pilot 5 Endbringers and combine to form MegaEndbringer
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Sep 3, 2013 23:55
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Can someone explain why folks think there's a connection between eidolon and the endbringers? I don't get it. 
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Sep 4, 2013 00:12
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builds character posted:Can someone explain why folks think there's a connection between eidolon and the endbringers? I don't get it. I don't think anyone on SA does, but the idea is that Eidolon's power, up until very recently, is one of those ones that is kind of difficult to control. In terms of power it's on par with Scion and greater than the Endbringers when it isn't shackled by his own blindness, if how far he pushed Scion is any indication. So he needed powerful opponents to test himself. See all the stuff he said to, say, Jessica Yamada prior to the Echidna incident for what I mean there. He subconsciously created them with his power because he didn't understand how to really use it. This ties in which Scion's statement that Eidolon needed worthy opponents. He needed them, so he created the Endbringers. The Endbringers pushed him in a way no one other than Scion would, and they allowed him to play the role of the hero in a way nothing else would. He desperately wanted to be a hero as seen in his interlude chapter. This theory makes even more sense when you consider that Scion, according to both Taylor and Eidolon, directed a sense of revulsion towards Eidolon. This is actually a kind of significant thing since Scion, in general, only felt sadness. But this changed towards Eidolon for whatever reason. Do I believe it? No, not really, but I half-convinced myself as I wrote all of this out. I'd never really given it much thought before, but it makes a twisted kind of sense.
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Sep 4, 2013 01:14
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SerSpook posted:I don't think anyone on SA does, but the idea is that Eidolon's power, up until very recently, is one of those ones that is kind of difficult to control. In terms of power it's on par with Scion and greater than the Endbringers when it isn't shackled by his own blindness, if how far he pushed Scion is any indication. huh. If he created the endbringers to fight and challenge himself then why didn't they maintain his power when he was fighting them? He certainly didn't fight them off by himself. He always needed Alexandria and legend to do it.
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Sep 4, 2013 01:31
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builds character posted:huh. If he created the endbringers to fight and challenge himself then why didn't they maintain his power when he was fighting them? He certainly didn't fight them off by himself. He always needed Alexandria and legend to do it. Because he didn't understand what he needed to do to progress. In this theory, his subconscious and/or shard was acting on his conscious belief that he just needed to push himself harder, rather than knowing what he actually needed to do to progress.
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Sep 4, 2013 02:18
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NinjaDebugger posted:Because he didn't understand what he needed to do to progress. In this theory, his subconscious and/or shard was acting on his conscious belief that he just needed to push himself harder, rather than knowing what he actually needed to do to progress. That is certainly an explanation. Is there also an explanation for why they're made out of scion/worm-stuff? Also, is eidolon actually dead? And what's the deal with contessa's god mode shard that scion didn't recognize? I have a lot of questions.
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Sep 4, 2013 04:26
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Well, I just got done binging through this. I can't believe how long it was and at the same time I can't believe that I still want way more. I think it definitely dropped a little in quality after the whole Alexandria and Tagg (it would just be arc 27 and 28 that I need to spoil things for right?). It kind of felt like wildbow was trying to move the story along to his endgame and didn't want to go through the process of really fleshing out the PRT/wards as much as he did with the Undersiders. That being said I really liked arc 27 and where 28 is going currently. I think I enjoy tattletale and imp as much or many than any of the other characters. I can't wait to see them kick rear end in the post-apocalypse. Hopefully things don't get back to the super epic scale of Endbringers and Scion all day everyday for a few arcs. Also, in my head it totally makes sense that Scion recruited Eidolon to be his general or whatever as he leads one of the 5 groups. Scion was promising Eidolon worthy opponents.
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Sep 4, 2013 04:38
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thespaceinvader posted:5 endbringers is obvious. 5 groups, I don't think we actually know yet, but... Undersiders, PRT/Protectorate/Wards, Cauldron, Thanda, Yangban? Weren't the Thanda gathered under Cauldron's umbrella? I'd think a likely 5th group would be the Irregulars.
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Sep 4, 2013 08:32
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packsmack posted:Well, I just got done binging through this. I can't believe how long it was and at the same time I can't believe that I still want way more. I think it definitely dropped a little in quality after the whole Alexandria and Tagg (it would just be arc 27 and 28 that I need to spoil things for right?). It kind of felt like wildbow was trying to move the story along to his endgame and didn't want to go through the process of really fleshing out the PRT/wards as much as he did with the Undersiders. This is kind of how I feel too, though I wouldn't say it dropped in quality as much as I think the pacing took a real nosedive. I think it started when Taylor turned herself in willingly; I just couldn't buy that 4 cryptic words from Dinah was enough to make someone intelligent and methodical like Taylor give up everything she had just on the off chance she would be making the right decision, though I guess it does fit somewhat with her personality. Wildbow really needed to take as much time fleshing out Taylor's time in the Wards as she/he took fleshing out her time with the Undersiders. As it is it really does feel like she/he just wanted to advance the plot as quickly as possible at the cost of the already established pacing.
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Sep 4, 2013 13:22
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I don't know about you guys but I'm torn up over the death of Clockblocker.
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Sep 4, 2013 13:38
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Dietrich posted:I don't know about you guys but I'm torn up over the death of Clockblocker. The best hero.
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Sep 4, 2013 13:53
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So if I start reading this Worm thing how "in the loving middle" is it right now? I don't want to get started on half a story. Is there some point at which it's going to be "finished" ? How close are we to that point?
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Sep 4, 2013 13:59
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:So if I start reading this Worm thing how "in the loving middle" is it right now? I don't want to get started on half a story. Is there some point at which it's going to be "finished" ? How close are we to that point? Supposedly going to end around arc/chapter 30. It's on arc 28.
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Sep 4, 2013 14:02
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Daysvala posted:This is kind of how I feel too, though I wouldn't say it dropped in quality as much as I think the pacing took a real nosedive. Agreed, we never really got the Taylor-as-Ward experience, and her relationship with the Protectorate is...thin at best. We skipped over most of a year of character development there.
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Sep 4, 2013 14:06
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I was sad to see that character die, too. Just start reading. It's longer than the first three ASoIaF books combined. Even if you have a shitload of free time, it'll take you at least a week or two, and if you don't, you'll probably catch up right near the end. Which is where we are now, really, but closer.
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Sep 4, 2013 14:09
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veekie posted:Agreed, we never really got the Taylor-as-Ward experience, and her relationship with the Protectorate is...thin at best. We skipped over most of a year of character development there. That arc really only needed 3 or 4 extra chapters to work better.
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Sep 4, 2013 14:23
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At least as much time as being directly under Coil would have been good.
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Sep 4, 2013 14:28
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I think I'll voice the dissenting opinion and say I'm glad he cut out the ward stuff. I was ready to get started on the bigger picture stuff with Endbringers and Jack.
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Sep 4, 2013 14:30
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Fellwenner posted:That arc really only needed 3 or 4 extra chapters to work better. Yup. Timeskip in the middle of an Endbringer fight was a really, really weird decision. On one level, I can understand it, but I think several smaller timeskips, each hitting on the more pertinent stuff that happens, would have been better.
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Sep 4, 2013 14:32
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Or new Endbringers showing up even. Even as Warlord of Brockton Bay, even while fighting the S9, there was time for interpersonal stuff. Win or lose, there's a story to it. Skipping out in the middle of the fight was probably one of the bits of writing that got criticized most through the whole series.
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Sep 4, 2013 14:39
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I wonder what Skitter's threat classification was, at it's peak. An A-class maybe? I mean Alexandria and Dragon both came to deal with her, though Dragon was more a secondary thing.
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Sep 4, 2013 15:04
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SerSpook posted:I wonder what Skitter's threat classification was, at it's peak. An A-class maybe? I mean Alexandria and Dragon both came to deal with her, though Dragon was more a secondary thing. The Undersiders as a group maybe an A, but not Skitter on her own. The level of distain Alexandria showed her made it pretty clear she didn't consider just Taylor alone to be a tremendous threat. Oops.
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Sep 4, 2013 18:05
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I think it was definitely the pacing that was the problem. A common theme to some of wildbow's comments have been that he is still a junior author. I think he must want to get to his next project. I hope that if he ever does officially publish that he goes back and fleshes some things out a little and makes transitions between arcs flow. Also, it took me like 2.5 weeks when I was pretty much reading as fast as humanly possible. Wildbow has said that it would finish around arc 30 or the end of the year. I'm hoping it is closer to the end of the year, because arc 30 will probably wrap up around the middle/end of October.
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Sep 4, 2013 19:58
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packsmack posted:I think it was definitely the pacing that was the problem. A common theme to some of wildbow's comments have been that he is still a junior author. I think he must want to get to his next project. I hope that if he ever does officially publish that he goes back and fleshes some things out a little and makes transitions between arcs flow. Wildbow has commented that the latter parts of the story have been a bit of a struggle, since there's a lot less freedom and a ton of loose ends to tie off. Really not an uncommon problem for an author to have, let alone a novice. The pacing in general is indeed a bit of a mess. We're asked to believe that the events spanning arcs one through roughly twenty take place over the course of about three months, which really strains credibility. Tacking an eighteen month time skip onto the end of things just makes it even more jarring. Arcs twenty-five and twenty-six really suffer more than any of the others. I get that Taylor's time in Brockton Bay were her most formative moments and the time she spent away trying to be "one of the goodguys" was mostly spent spinning her wheels, but the story doesn't pause long enough to let us appreciate the fact. Not enough time spent on her homecoming, getting a chance to reconnect with her friends and absorb what had changed. Not enough time spent with the Wards, really letting you see her total lack of meaningful connections and degree to which her ambition had isolated her. All in all it's just too much important ground covered too quickly. The worst bit (26 Spoiler) was defiantly when she shot Aster. The Taylor who departed Brockton Bay wouldn't have done that. I understand that she'd changed by that point, but my understaning was based more on inference of what author was attempting to do as opposed to what the texted actually conveyed to me. Not a deal breaker, but it was to the point where I was almost pleased when the world ended. If for no other reason than it got the story back on track. Edit: But then I was totally bummed out again when Clockblocker died, poor Clockblocker. Skippy McPants fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Sep 4, 2013 |
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Sep 4, 2013 20:25
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Skippy McPants posted:The Undersiders as a group maybe an A, but not Skitter on her own. The level of distain Alexandria showed her made it pretty clear she didn't consider just Taylor alone to be a tremendous threat. I wouldn't be surprised if Contessa (and maybe by extention Cauldron) set up Alexandria from the very start to take this fall. Hell Alexandria's death ended up strengthening the wards and protectorate if anything. gently caress a hell of a lot of the poo poo Cauldron and Contessa are known to have done has had major impacts on Taylor. I think it's likely that a good part of Contessa's plan hinges on Taylor, to an extent that Doctor Mother probably isn't even fully aware of.
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Sep 4, 2013 20:48
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NecroMonster posted:I wouldn't be surprised if Contessa (and maybe by extention Cauldron) set up Alexandria from the very start to take this fall. Hell Alexandria's death ended up strengthening the wards and protectorate if anything. gently caress a hell of a lot of the poo poo Cauldron and Contessa are known to have done has had major impacts on Taylor. I think it's likely that a good part of Contessa's plan hinges on Taylor, to an extent that Doctor Mother probably isn't even fully aware of. Ehhh, that's pushing it a bit. Defiant and Miss Militia both confirmed that what Taylor experienced was Alexandria normal method of interrogation, attempting to strong-arm and overawe people into submission. Occam's razor; Alexandria had fought the Endbringers dozens of times, she didn't have any reason to believe that a sixteen year old upstart could pose any kind of danger to her personally so she didn't see any risk in backing her into a corner. Attributing it to some grand plan on Cauldron's part just undercuts all the delicious hubris.
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Sep 4, 2013 21:04
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Skippy McPants posted:Ehhh, that's pushing it a bit. Defiant and Miss Militia both confirmed that what Taylor experienced was Alexandria normal method of interrogation, attempting to strong-arm and overawe people into submission. Occam's razor; Alexandria had fought the Endbringers dozens of times, she didn't have any reason to believe that a sixteen year old upstart could pose any kind of danger to her personally so she didn't see any risk in backing her into a corner. Attributing it to some grand plan on Cauldron's part just undercuts all the delicious hubris. Alexandria was approached by Doctor Mother and given powers, Contessa is very likely involved in that choice.
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Sep 4, 2013 21:25
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By the way, is Doctor Mother's name really (28.1, IIRC) Mengele? Or was that just Tattletale trying to get a rise out of the woman?
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Sep 4, 2013 21:46
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Grundulum posted:By the way, is Doctor Mother's name really (28.1, IIRC) Mengele? Or was that just Tattletale trying to get a rise out of the woman? I think the latter.
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Sep 4, 2013 21:53
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Oh yeah if everything is being set up for Taylor, when Tattletale figures this out and tries to say anything expect her to get killed. Dinah probably already knows, but also knows that Taylor cannot know or everything is hosed.
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Sep 4, 2013 21:58
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builds character posted:I think the latter. It's the latter, the alternative would just be stupid.
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Sep 4, 2013 22:16
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Well I can't say I expected this plan. Cockroaches 28.3 Spoilers: Let's just go talk to the Simurgh!
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Sep 5, 2013 06:08
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So if Glaistig Uaine got Eidolon's camera, did she manage to snag his power too? Also, relay bugs part 2. Awesome.
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Sep 5, 2013 06:38
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Imp sure is getting classy.
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Sep 5, 2013 06:42
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OmniBeer posted:Well I can't say I expected this plan. I was guessing something like this it makes excellent loving sense, they don't know who created the endbringers or why, which means not attempting to actually communicate with the things, especially when they are acting weird, is simply a huge missed opportunity. We also know that humanity's survivors are supposed to be mostly divided into five groups, and there are five endbringers. ON top of these two things, we, the readers, also have some inkling that Eidolon might have been subconsiously creating the things in the first place, and if that's true, why couldn't be reprogram them before he died? It's even more likely if you assume that what Scion said made Eidolon realize that he was doing it in the first place, makes it easier to fix. On top of all of this, it doesn't seem like Cauldron has ever really attempted to do much at all about the Endbringers, meaning maybe Contessa never saw them as a real threat.
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Sep 5, 2013 07:50
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28.3: Well, there goes the power up we've been waiting for. With access to an endless supply of relays Taylor's range becomes functionally limitless. Assuming the super human multitasking granted by her shard doesn't have a cap and that she gets enough time to spawn more she'll be on the verge of global omniscience.
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Sep 5, 2013 08:52
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packsmack posted:I think it was definitely the pacing that was the problem. A common theme to some of wildbow's comments have been that he is still a junior author. I think he must want to get to his next project. I hope that if he ever does officially publish that he goes back and fleshes some things out a little and makes transitions between arcs flow. I wish s/he would just take a vacation or something for a week or two, or maybe pull a Sanderson and work on something else to clear the head.
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Sep 5, 2013 09:08
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veekie posted:Imp sure is getting classy. I think teacher got to her, they have made a big focus on that she is suddenly using big words.
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Sep 5, 2013 14:51
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I don't know about any of that, I just finished the first fight against Leviathan. Am I the only one who thought that due to Tattletale's description of it as a creature with a simple biology, basically sounding like an oversized crab, Taylor's powers were going to have some interaction with it?
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Sep 5, 2013 14:52
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Lprsti99 posted:I don't know about any of that, I just finished the first fight against Leviathan. Am I the only one who thought that due to Tattletale's description of it as a creature with a simple biology, basically sounding like an oversized crab, Taylor's powers were going to have some interaction with it? I thought this too, but it's one of those things that just wouldn't fit Worm. Taylor doesn't really get powerups in that fashion, or on that scale. Typically they're more subtle and honestly more impactful. I mean, an Endbringer under her control would be significant, sure, but her greatest weapon has always been how she organizes and deploys what she has available, as seen in her confrontations with Lung.
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Sep 5, 2013 15:07
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