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Milky Moor posted:Incorrect. How did I miss that? Yes, much like NGE, which sorta ends with the murder of billions of people, Worm too ends on a high note Milky Moor posted:Given that people in this very thread have argued that Taylor's big flaw is that she doesn't acknowledge her problems, it is strange -- but honestly not surprising given that we have gone well past the point where criticising a text is read as a personal attack -- that the repudiation of that ignorance is seen by those very same people as an unhappy ending.
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Aug 13, 2017 04:44
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Doctor w-rw-rw- posted:How did I miss that? Yes, much like NGE, which sorta ends with the murder of billions of people, Worm too ends on a high note Billions of people were not murdered in Evangelion.
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Aug 13, 2017 04:52
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I think Worm is in large part about how hard it is to be a good person. It's not enough to have good intentions or an indisputably heroic goal. It's not enough to be selfless. Taylor, Cauldron, and the entities could all be said to meet these three criteria, after all. It's like Taylor says to Contessa at the end. How you go about things matters. Something I love about Taylor is that she is never passive in her efforts to be a good person. It causes her a lot of grief, but it's part of what makes her a compelling character. Going undercover instead of joining the wards? Leaving the undersiders and placing herself under arrest? Getting brain surgery? These were all debatable ideas, and none of them were good for Taylor. She did them because she thought they were how she could do the most good. Her assessment was flawed because she is a damaged and flawed person, but you can understand how she got there. It's cool.
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Aug 13, 2017 05:54
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I'd like Worm 2 to be 20 or 30 years into the future and only deal with the old cast as peripherals or where it makes sense (Dragon would still be around, as would GU, but probably not Contessa).
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Aug 13, 2017 09:44
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wondering what kind of protagonist we'll go with. i'm hoping for a mature character. someone somewhere suggested dauntless in 10 years once they figure out how to fix the time vortex or whatever, which would be a kind of neat way of giving a protagonist whose ignorance of the current world gives an excuse for introducing the world (dunno if it'd work for other reasons, like him probably being too powerful, and maybe wildbow wants a hero with some recent past to work with).
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Aug 13, 2017 10:56
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Dauntless would also be super boring in a fight and half the fun of worm was the people with very useless sounding abilities actually being terrifying as gently caress even against a man who could turn into a dragon
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Aug 13, 2017 11:23
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i dunno. maybe they could his equipment all sorts of whacky abilities that weren't explored in the original.
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Aug 13, 2017 11:43
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Neurosis posted:i dunno. maybe they could his equipment all sorts of whacky abilities that weren't explored in the original. I'm o sure Wildbow has said that while he has some psychological control over how the powers manifest they all tend towards direct combat stuff Also he could easily become just straight broken by the end and not in an interesting way
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Aug 13, 2017 17:46
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What is it about Worm in particular that facilitates this sort of discussion? I never see people doing this for Pact. There's UNSONG. UNSONG is good.
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Aug 13, 2017 19:25
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I think it's just because everyone agrees Pact wasn't overly good, and because everyone agrees Twig is. Worm is the weird inbetween. Also because Sylvester is an unrepentant self-declared manipulative poo poo.
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Aug 13, 2017 19:33
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Also because a whole lot less people have actually read either Pact or Twig in comparison to Worm.
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Aug 13, 2017 20:03
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Mad Hamish posted:What is it about Worm in particular that facilitates this sort of discussion? I never see people doing this for Pact. Unsong seems too fuckin weird
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Aug 13, 2017 20:08
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Reading chapter one of Unsong and it's weird as hell but gods name ends "meh meh meh meh meh meh" and that rules
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Aug 13, 2017 20:13
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Unsong is a spec fic serial for people who love shaggy dog stories and awful puns
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Aug 13, 2017 20:30
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Thankfully you can skip most of the puns. I highly recommend doing so to anyone giving Unsong a try.
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Aug 13, 2017 21:18
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CaptainJuan posted:Unsong is a spec fic serial for people who love shaggy dog stories and awful puns That sounds dope actually
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Aug 13, 2017 21:19
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A basic knowledge of gematria and/or Kabbala and/or ceremonial magic is definitely helpful for reading UNSONG but even so, it was a fun read.
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Aug 13, 2017 21:59
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Mad Hamish posted:A basic knowledge of gematria and/or Kabbala and/or ceremonial magic is definitely helpful for reading UNSONG but even so, it was a fun read. I didn't know any of that nonsense and I still enjoyed it.
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Aug 13, 2017 23:19
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Mad Hamish posted:A basic knowledge of gematria and/or Kabbala and/or ceremonial magic is definitely helpful for reading UNSONG but even so, it was a fun read. Also Placebomancy is one of the greatest things ever created.
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Aug 13, 2017 23:35
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Mad Hamish posted:What is it about Worm in particular that facilitates this sort of discussion? I never see people doing this for Pact. Pact just kind of sucks. Like, I thought the world was great, to the extent that I think it is a more interesting world than Worm's take on superheroes. I also remember a lot of the characters being enjoyable. But the plot just sucks. Worm's sense of constant escalation got old pretty quickly, but Pact escalates just about every other chapter, as if WB just wanted to get the whole thing over and done with. I want to see a re-edited Worm but I more want to see a re-done Pact.
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Aug 13, 2017 23:53
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Am I reading twig right (part six) did Jamie just come out to Sy and admit that he has a thing for him
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Aug 14, 2017 00:18
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UNSONG is essentially Hitchhikers Guide to the Book of Revelation.
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Aug 14, 2017 00:47
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BENGHAZI 2 posted:Am I reading twig right (part six) did Jamie just come out to Sy and admit that he has a thing for him Correct.
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Aug 14, 2017 00:59
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If you don't enjoy puns, I don't even know why you're reading UNSONG.
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Aug 14, 2017 01:50
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Silver2195 posted:Correct. Poor Jamie
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Aug 14, 2017 01:57
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Milky Moor posted:It's telling that when you ask people what her flaws are you get: she has not-flaws, she does not get a happy ending, and the story continually escalates. I think you're using a strange definition of "flaws" here. Like, as an extreme example, if a story has a person who rapes a bunch of people and faces no repercussions for doing so (in addition to somehow having a net positive impact), that's still a flaw of theirs, regardless of whether the narrative properly acknowledges it. In the same way, Taylor has a personality and attitude that is clearly very flawed, and the fact that the narrative doesn't punish her much for this* doesn't change the fact that those flaws exist. *I mean, it sorta does, but it doesn't really give us a clear "she could have done X instead" alternative to think about. Like, you can reasonably speculate that joining the Wards from the beginning would have been better, but then maybe Coil would have succeeded in his plan. And at the end none of this even matters much because of Scion destroy almost everything. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 03:38 on Aug 14, 2017 |
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Aug 14, 2017 03:22
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Mad Hamish posted:What is it about Worm in particular that facilitates this sort of discussion? I never see people doing this for Pact. the same impulse that makes superhero versus battles a major topic of discussion on the internet, i guess.
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Aug 14, 2017 11:05
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Ytlaya posted:*I mean, it sorta does, but it doesn't really give us a clear "she could have done X instead" alternative to think about. Like, you can reasonably speculate that joining the Wards from the beginning would have been better, but then maybe Coil would have succeeded in his plan. And at the end none of this even matters much because of Scion destroy almost everything. I think it would be a much less interesting story if there was some obviously correct choice that Taylor just doesn't make. I see two big reasons why. One is that in real life, like Worm, it's really difficult to figure out what the right thing is to do. The more power you have, the harder it is. If the narrative provided a correct choice that Taylor doesn't go with for whatever reason, I think it would undermine a lot of what had happened up to that point. The second is that it would make the story a much less nuanced exploration of utilitarianism. At the end of the story, Taylor is about a good of a person as you can be from a utilitarian standpoint. Yet she is wretched and full of regrets. Also, Milky Moor is operating under this assumption that you can only have a good character if that character has flaws which the narrative punishes them for. It's kind of a narrow view on what makes for good characters.
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Aug 14, 2017 23:24
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Nah, it kinds of makes the whole thing a bit laughable if her flaws are things that allow her to save the world and the whole narrative (and, indeed, world) is constructed that it's the only way things could've happened. I've always found Taylor's attempt at pathos towards the end, where she muses that she would do things differently and heroically if she could do it all again, really weak. Because it's like, okay, you do that, Scion wins. Now what, Taylor? Without options, without agency, you can't really comment on morality at all. It'd be like getting angry at my toaster for burning my toast. It really shouldn't be controversial that, hey, flaws that result in a net good aren't exactly flaws (the laughable 'what if rape, what if rape make good' idea). More importantly, utilitarianism is a bogus philosophy that falls apart under the slightest amount of scrutiny. It works, of course, when your utilitarian hero is the Only One who can Save The Whole Multiverse. But at that point, you're really reaching a moral event horizon where anything and everything would be justifiable if it stopped the bad guy. There's a difference between giving a character depth and giving a character meaningful flaws. This is further confused by plenty of 'guides to writing' out there equating flaws to, say, having a scar on one's face. Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 00:42 on Aug 15, 2017 |
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Aug 15, 2017 00:37
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Milky Moor posted:Because it's like, okay, you do that, Scion wins. Now what, Taylor? We don't really know this at all. If Taylor had decided to become a hero from the beginning (or changed any number of other decisions), she would have still been utilizing her existing talents under those circumstances and may have had other opportunities to accomplish the various things she accomplishes. And to be honest, as far as saving the world goes literally nothing she does aside from saving Panacea's life matters at all in terms of letting her execute the "bully Scion" strategy. edit: Oh, I guess you could be specifically referring to her controlling people in the Scion fight. You might have a point regarding that single decision, but that's not directly connected to her actions in the rest of the story. And, ultimately, the plan used to defeat Scion technically could have been used without Taylor's ability. There's a decent chance it would have been really tough to coordinate people enough to pull it off, but it was at least something that technically could have happened. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 02:20 on Aug 15, 2017 |
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Aug 15, 2017 02:18
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Milky Moor posted:Nah, it kinds of makes the whole thing a bit laughable if her flaws are things that allow her to save the world and the whole narrative (and, indeed, world) is constructed that it's the only way things could've happened. I've always found Taylor's attempt at pathos towards the end, where she muses that she would do things differently and heroically if she could do it all again, really weak. Because it's like, okay, you do that, Scion wins. Now what, Taylor? uh not necessarily? things play out the way they do because of what happens in the first arc, if she never joins the undersiders who knows how poo poo goes but you're the guy who argued that getting double tapped and sneaking away to a world where you know one person and also you've lost an arm and have a lovely prosthetic (and it is, because the epilogue mentions her having to use her other arm to get it in her pocket) and the one thing that gave you meaning and your last line is hoping that someday you'll figure out how to be okay is a happy ending so no poo poo you're a flaming idiot
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Aug 15, 2017 03:35
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I'm not convinced that nothing Taylor did ever mattered because if she joined the Wards or whatever she'd still end up in the exact same position to defeat Scion with the exact same capabilities is the right argument to make but, hey.BENGHAZI 2 posted:uh not necessarily? things play out the way they do because of what happens in the first arc, if she never joins the undersiders who knows how poo poo goes Remember when you thought she was missing an arm entirely and had two gaping bullet wounds in her head and didn't know a single person when she actually knows two (because Regent is there as well?) You can't really gotcha someone with the stuff they corrected you on, by the way. Good times in the Web Serial thread. I said optimistic, by the way. But if your reading comprehension was beyond a middle school level, well, we wouldn't be having this conversation, would we? Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 04:28 on Aug 15, 2017 |
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Aug 15, 2017 04:25
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Milky Moor posted:Remember when you thought she was missing an arm entirely and had two gaping bullet wounds in her head and didn't know a single person when she actually knows two (because Regent is there as well?) You can't really gotcha someone with the stuff they corrected you on, by the way. Interlude: End posted:She stopped in her tracks. Interlude: End posted:Taylor shook her head a little. The resemblance was slight, if it was even there. Her mind was playing tricks on her. Milky Moor posted:I said optimistic, by the way. But if your reading comprehension was beyond a middle school level, well, we wouldn't be having this conversation, would we?
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Aug 15, 2017 06:01
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Milky Moor posted:I'm not convinced that nothing Taylor did ever mattered because if she joined the Wards or whatever she'd still end up in the exact same position to defeat Scion with the exact same capabilities is the right argument to make but, hey. Someone she thinks is Regent, or the Aleph version of him, not necessarily the one she knew, also lmao at you insisting that having a prosthetic means she isn't still missing an arm Also no you changed your mind to say it was optimistic after other people pointed out you were confusing that for happy
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Aug 15, 2017 06:05
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Also there's no guarantee that any of the events of the story up to and including jack turning Scion would have happened the way they did or at all if it wasn't for her decision to join the Undersiders, that's kinda one of the themes of the book: actions have consequences and some of them you can't see coming no matter how hard you try Like Taylor doesn't join, the bank robbery fails (possibly, all of this is just a possibly), the Undersiders don't get in a fight WTH Bakuda, the ABB war never kicks off, which means Leviathan isn't attracted to the city, holy poo poo one giant calamity already doesn't happen, maybe, because of one decision I'd keep going but besides the very end I don't remember much of it and I'm only up to the Leviathan arc in my reread BENGHAZI 2 fucked around with this message at 06:11 on Aug 15, 2017 |
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Aug 15, 2017 06:07
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BENGHAZI 2 posted:Also there's no guarantee that any of the events of the story up to and including jack turning Scion would have happened the way they did or at all if it wasn't for her decision to join the Undersiders, that's kinda one of the themes of the book: actions have consequences and some of them you can't see coming no matter how hard you try Imagine I posted some words wondering how you reconcile this with Cauldron/PTV/yadda yadda yadda and the fact that the text of Worm posits that there is no such thing as free will. Taylor is an unreliable narrator whose trauma prevents her from seeing things clearly and accurately. I am still correct and accurate.
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Aug 15, 2017 07:18
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Unreliable Narrator posted:I am still correct and accurate.
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Aug 15, 2017 08:14
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Milky Moor posted:Imagine I posted some words wondering how you reconcile this with Cauldron/PTV/yadda yadda yadda and the fact that the text of Worm posits that there is no such thing as free will. Worm doesn't posit that free will is a myth. Nobody has perfect sight of the future except the simurgh, everyone else is shooting the odds. Even Contessa has blind spots. Also lmao that you simultaneously acknowledge that most of the info we get is ubrelaible as poo poo while proclaiming yourself to be perfectly correct about the story
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Aug 15, 2017 08:57
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BENGHAZI 2 posted:Worm doesn't posit that free will is a myth. Nobody has perfect sight of the future except the simurgh 
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Aug 15, 2017 09:48
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Events in a story being predetermined doesn't mean that you still can't criticize characters. It's like if you had some predetermined destiny that involved someone murdering someone else (or committing some other evil act); the murderer would still be evil within the context of the events that occur. The fact that it's possible to know a person would act in an evil manner ahead of time doesn't mean it's not still evil; it just means someone was able to predict "this person is gonna be evil."
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Aug 15, 2017 18:29
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