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I just finished Worm a couple days ago. I really enjoyed it. I mean, it kept me reading voraciously for over a million and a half words. That's pretty impressive. That said, it had a lot of flaws too. I'll start with the bad things so I end positive. The pacing had problems. It's essentially a first draft and it shows. Stakes are kept too high for too long sometimes. There's no reflection time. The time skip was bad. It was funny reading comments all the way in the next arc that were like, "Wait, this is two years in the future?!" Definitely signs something is amiss. The prose was nothing to write home about. There's a lot of exposition, and it sometimes sounds expositiony even when it's not exposition. Yikes. Even with all that exposition, I felt like it was hard to follow sometimes. Felt like I was reading Russian literature or the Wheel of Time books at times. Huge cast. Everyone has civilian and (sometimes multiple) cape names, plus a power set you need to be able to recall to follow the action. The cast page was a god send, but it still wasn't enough sometimes. The strengths more than make up for this stuff, but I look forward to published Worm. These are all problems I think he can fix, and it should be amazing when he's done. I hope he has a good editor helping him with this behemoth. It has so much going for it. I loved Taylor. She is maybe the best superhero I've ever read. She reminds me of Batman in being a resourceful, driven, focused tool user, but she is better than Batman in absolutely every way. Instead of the boring and broken super power of unlimited wealth, she has the awesome and totally reasonable power of controlling bugs. Instead of being a dick who people inexplicably love, she's someone who other characters respect, like, or hate for understandable reasons. Instead of spending her time punching poor people and throwing mass murderers into easily escapable prisons, she identifies real problems and then fixes them. She is just the most badass motherfucker during fights, and she is badass in a way that makes it really fun to cheer for her. She is also an incredible paragon. She made impossible choices over and over, and I'm not sure I remember any that were really morally objectionable. Morally questionable? Maybe. Morally trying? Absolutely. But goddamn does she do a lot of good, for good reasons, with careful consideration to whether or not she's doing enough good or good in the right way. I liked how so many characters acted as a foil to Taylor. Maybe it was just a cohesiveness of theme, but pretty much everyone compared and contrasted with Taylor in a way that helped me better understand both characters and the world at large. I liked the Slaughterhouse 9. I've seen some people saying they didn't like them, but they struck me as horror movie monsters from day one, and I thought they fulfilled that role with gusto. I really liked the theme of cooperation. At the end, Tattletale makes a little speech about how Taylor always asks for cooperation when it's hard to say no or something. It was insightful but unfair. (Tattletale in a nutshell.) Taylor does ask for cooperation in ways that put pressure on the people she's asking. And she always asks from a position where she feels she can do the right thing moving forward. Over and over, though, she puts herself on the line to try and get cooperation. She does reach out and compromise. It's just that almost no one will meet her half way. Of course, a lot of the people who don't meet her half way get murdered by Taylor, but that's just how things go. (Seriously, why didn't Coil just give up Dinah? Idiot.) Sorry for the long post. Just wanted to get some thoughts out there and see if I couldn't find other opinions.
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May 1, 2014 15:33
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Grundulum, I agree that the cast is fleshed out very well. I'm just bad with names, and the fight scenes were sometimes really hard to follow as I struggled to remember exactly what some guy's power was and how it was related to the the action just described. I don't think the lack of cooperation is because shards are conflict driven. I think the super powers and the conflict loving shards are just there to enhance the theme. In real life, humanity could pretty easily end absolute poverty, dismantle our nuclear stockpiles, stop global climate change, etc. But we don't because humans are both great and awful at cooperating. This is why I really like Worm's themes of cooperation and leadership. Pavlov, that is a very interesting theory. If that is the case, Coil is significantly less dumb than I thought. I'm on the second arc of Pact. It's kind of dragging for me. Does it get better? It just feels like an exploration of how this world was custom designed to be unreasonably awful for the protagonist.
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May 4, 2014 03:26
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Coil made her think he gave a kill order on Skitter and then totally didn't. Tattletale also underestimated danger, got cocky, and paid for it several times. Like the bank job going worse than she thought, or when Jack Slash cut her mouth open.
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May 6, 2014 18:22
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Probably? I was clarifying the specific situation Ranma mentioned.
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May 7, 2014 10:40
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Ah, so Rose doesn't get better. That's too bad. I read a few more chapters and the "can't lie" thing is getting really aggravating. Like, it could be interesting. Aes Sedai did it pretty well. But I swear every dialog is *reasonable, not even that prying of a question* *evasive BS non-answer answer* *but seriously?* *Seriously* OR *lol gently caress u* Does that get toned down?
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May 8, 2014 13:37
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He spends 60+ hours a week writing and always has a deadline looming close enough that he can't be a perfectionist about things.
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May 23, 2014 00:16
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Twig is really good so far. I'm liking it a lot more than Pact. Pact's metaphysics making every conversation an exercise in finding misdirection and lies by omission was infuriating. This low power superhero team solving mad scientist mysteries thing is much more engaging. The protagonist seems as goal oriented and creative as Taylor, but far more amoral and far more of a victim. I kind of dread finding out exactly what happens during these kid's appointments. I bet it's awful.
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Mar 22, 2015 16:16
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I have been reading Twig update to update. This is the first Wildbow story I've read this way. I was too late to the Worm party and I couldn't stand reading Pact that way. But Twig is great. The arcs are more episodic and focused feeling. The characters' powers are almost 100% being perceptive and clever, and it's a lot of fun to read.
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May 20, 2015 13:45
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The more considered pace gives the story more time to feel clever. Also, I really like Sy.
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Jun 13, 2015 16:54
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devildragon777 posted:Fray is amazingly dangerous if she's capable of outplaying the academies this hard. The Lambs are pretty outmatched here. I don't know. An intelligent, dedicated individual being able to maneuver around a bureaucracy isn't really that surprising. Especially when they have intimate knowledge about how the organization works. Fray makes me think of the unibomber. Yeah, the unibomber was a dangerous guy, but he wasn't superhuman. Fray is dangerous, but I don't think she's operating on another level from the lambs. It's just that she's already deep into her game and the lambs only now showed up to the board.
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Jul 1, 2015 09:02
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And so is every single one of the lambs. Her superhumaness isn't on another level compared to the protagonists. I think this is getting to the heart of what I really love about Twig. In Worm, the threats were scary because their powers were overwhelming, and Taylor won with clever thinking and strategy. In Twig, the enemies don't have overwhelming superpowers. Instead, the enemy's thinking and strategy is what's really intimidating. And the heroes overcome with even more excellent cleverness.
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Jul 2, 2015 08:44
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The stitched are becoming increasingly depressing as time goes on. At first I assumed they were just flesh automatons, but it seems more and more like they are people.
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Jul 12, 2015 14:35
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I don't think it's just her shard effecting her. Sure, it's no coincidence that she both strives to be fully in control and possess the "control fully" shard. But as I saw someone point out, Taylor has crazy trust issues even before triggering. When her mom died, her dad pulled into an angry grief cocoon and wasn't there for her when she needed him most. Then her best friend betrayed her and stated a full on torture campaign. Then her dad and every other adult in her life totally fails in their duty to protect her from this bullying, even after her horrific trigger event. Now she has powers, is suicidal, and desperately needs some measure of control. She plans and prepares, and kicks a lot of rear end on her first night out. Unfortunately, her first contact with one of the "good guys" is a megalomaniac rear end in a top hat who totally fails her because he's too worried about making himself look good. Then the first "bad guys" she meets includes someone who genuinely wants to help her. That Skitter took the path she did is a no brainer. Still, I'm always surprised when people don't like Taylor. I adore her. She's everything a darker sort of superhero should be. Kicks rear end, but not because she's way more powerful than everyone. Does good, but is always really morally conflicted. And above all, she embodies the major themes of the story she's starring in. Worm is all about the tension between power and cooperation, the importance of trust vs. the desire for control. Taylor plays it out beautifully.
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Jul 17, 2015 16:46
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I hope it's just wildbow trolling. "It's all a dream" is really dumb, ad it would make Contessa a total poo poo. I mean, I don't know if anyone is really in a position to condemn Taylor's actions at the end of worm. Bu if there is, it's definitely not Contessa.
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Jul 25, 2015 20:21
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I think it does qualify as "it was just a dream" type storytelling because it portrays a dreamworld as real. It's not the entire story, but it is something that is never grappled with as a dream. It makes Contessa a poo poo because with all her power, that's what she chooses to do to Taylor? It's not just putting down someone super dangerous. It's passing judgement. It's condemning someone to a solipsistic coma state. I don't think anyone is in a position to condemn Taylor for her actions at the end of worm, but Contessa is the absolutely least qualified. They're probably the two people who did the most to save humanity. They also share a lot of traits. Goal oriented. Master tacticians but questionable strategists. Willing to make impossible choices in the pursuit of their goals. Trust issues. They share a lot in common, so for Contessa to decide that is the fate Taylor deserves? poo poo.
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Jul 26, 2015 03:19
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Namarrgon posted:Another thing I disliked about Worm too. Maybe this is because of the fan community surrounding it as well (it is terrible, but in an incompetent fanboy way). Apparently part of the premise of Worm is that we are supposed to think "ah man what kind of a lovely power is insect control". I can't be the only one who read "insect control" and immediately thought "that is ridiculously powerful". I think this criticism is really missing the point. It's not that we're supposed to think that bug control is a lovely power. It's that bug control absolutely is a lovely power in the reference frame of a classic comic book. That Taylor's power is in fact one of the best because it expands her mind is great. It's a persistent reminder of what kind of take Worm is on the superhero genre. Taylor's initial deprecation of her power giving way to increasingly elaborate and effective uses of bugs is a journey from a silver age standards mindset to a worm mindset. Taylor getting a secondary power to make her creative with her bugs feels pretty dumb to me. It would undermine her personality. Taylor is incredibly goal oriented and resourceful. She does everything she can with what she has to do what she feels she needs to do. No extra powers required for that. Edit: Doctor w-rw-rw- posted:Uh, speculation? Isn't it established that her first trigger was total insect control; her subsequent second trigger unlocked the multitasking ability to be able to individually command everything in her control? Pretty much. The kid from her shelter triggers with a bud of queen administrator and can control birds. He doesn't double trigger, though, so he can only control the bird's body or see through its eyes. Not both at the same time. Wittgen fucked around with this message at 17:11 on Jul 11, 2016 |
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Jul 11, 2016 17:06
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Neurosis posted:As you say it was like that in Worm and Pact, too. It was annoying in Worm though because it felt like Taylor was very rarely called on her bullshit in a way that had any consequences. While Miss Militia or Clockblocker might have told her how she was acting she'd still inevitably get her way and in the result be justified. I don't really understand this reading of Taylor. What bullshit? Taylor struggles to do the right thing for literally the entire story. I feel like the point is that doing the right thing is actually a very difficult and complicated task. Especially when you have power. The ends do tend to justify Taylor's means, but I was never annoyed by it and I felt Taylor was a moral hero straight through to the end because she never falls into self righteousness. She never stops questioning if she should be doing these things or if maybe there is a better way. This stands in direct contrast to Cauldron. Dr. Mother has no doubts or regrets up to the very end. Unlike Taylor, Dr. Mother would not have changed anything if given a chance.
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Jul 18, 2016 08:35
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Milky Moor posted:And given the construction of the setting - that Cauldron is literally doing what they need to do with no possible alternative because it is statistically the best probable outcome - criticizing Doctor Mother is pretty weak. But that's one of my problems with Worm, Tattletale and Contessa. It's not the case that Cauldron had no other alternatives. They were taking the optimal path to their decided upon goals, but those goals could have been different. With hindsight, they could have chosen better goals, but Dr. Mother has no second thoughts about the course she chose. To me, that utter certainty that their goals justified all the heinous poo poo they did is the definition of self-righteousness. Taylor on the other hand is constantly doubting herself and struggling with what exactly she should do. Taylor's actions were just as necessary for the ending as Cauldron's. The difference is that she would have tried to do better if she had the chance.
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Jul 18, 2016 10:34
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Why yes, you can make the Undersiders look a lot worse by completely ignoring the undersider who has both the best arc and the most interesting relationship with Taylor.
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Jul 21, 2016 09:24
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The thing that strikes me about Wildbow is that he is a godawful GM. This is good for his writing because brutal situations that require out of the box clever solutions make for fun fight scenes. It is bad for his internet posting because it leads to over-explaining with a cloud of "because I say so" hanging over everything.
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Jul 30, 2016 04:53
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chrisoya posted:Sounds like someone read PRT Quest. No, but I read the transcripts of some game he ran in wormverse Europe. Half of his players died in their introductory one shots. It was appalling.
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Aug 2, 2016 14:13
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Pavlov posted:That's a weird way to spell 'amazing'. I would play in that dumb group so fast. The trick to that kind of campaign is just to always have a backup character ready. If this was classic D&D or even a world game, sure. But this was a custom system where everything worked counter to high lethality. Character creation was involved, so making another character was hard. The system felt pretty vague about what you could do with skills and powers while also using a lot of dice rolls with fairly heavy variance in results. It's the kind of system that you really need to be used to if you're going to use your tools effectively. At least, that was my impression. To be so lethal in the very first session with no chance for the players to get used to the system or the characters they had put time into making? I think that's lovely, even if you are into harsh games.
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Aug 3, 2016 07:16
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Pavlov posted:Do you have a link to this? Now I'm really intrigued. I'm pretty sure this is it.
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Aug 3, 2016 12:29
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The clones would just run out of power after a few weeks instead of a few decades, yeah?
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Oct 5, 2016 02:30
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My understanding is that the Endbringers were an Eden creation meant to guarantee escalating conflict and lots of data for the cycle. Eidolon didn't create them. He was just "the priest" and could channel Eden's powers. Subconsciously, he activated them.
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May 24, 2017 02:22
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It's not that Taylor has control issues because of Queen Administrator. She got Queen Administrator because she has control issues.
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Jun 7, 2017 05:13
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Yes, the shards have influence over their hosts. It's not mind control, but they do have influence. My point is that the shards are attached to people in such a way that the power embodies their trauma, exacerbates their flaws, and helps lead them to more conflict. The people were handpicked via super precognition by these criteria. Taylor had control issues well before she triggered. A Taylor who would join the wards is a Taylor that would never have gotten Queen Administrator in the first place.
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Jun 8, 2017 02:58
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It's not just Contessa. There's also Smurgh (spelling?) and the Thinker Entity. Worm takes place in a world defined by the actions of three competing super precogs.
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Jun 10, 2017 00:53
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That's a really good theory.
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Jul 19, 2017 01:59
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Plorkyeran posted:Mother of Learning is about a dude grinding endlessly in a time loop until he eventually becomes totally awesome, so it holds a lot of appeal for the people who like those weird gamer fics. Critically, it also manages to maintain a feeling that the MC is utterly hosed. That's not easy.
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Jul 20, 2017 22:43
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Megazver posted:Yes, that's called having a conflict. Spoiler alert: it's not going to end with a "oh well I guess there's nothing I can do I guess I should just lie down and die" *dies*. Yeah, but lots of timeloop/power up stories end up not having conflicts. Despite Zorian's increasing power, the odds are always desperate. The author balancing power increases for Zorian and his antagonists is good.
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Jul 21, 2017 23:30
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The thing about Taylor is that she is possibly the best gritty Batman ever. The thing thing about Batman is that he is more than a bit of a mary sue, but he is a heck of a lot of fun to read about.
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Aug 12, 2017 14:16
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I think Worm is in large part about how hard it is to be a good person. It's not enough to have good intentions or an indisputably heroic goal. It's not enough to be selfless. Taylor, Cauldron, and the entities could all be said to meet these three criteria, after all. It's like Taylor says to Contessa at the end. How you go about things matters. Something I love about Taylor is that she is never passive in her efforts to be a good person. It causes her a lot of grief, but it's part of what makes her a compelling character. Going undercover instead of joining the wards? Leaving the undersiders and placing herself under arrest? Getting brain surgery? These were all debatable ideas, and none of them were good for Taylor. She did them because she thought they were how she could do the most good. Her assessment was flawed because she is a damaged and flawed person, but you can understand how she got there. It's cool.
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Aug 13, 2017 05:54
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Ytlaya posted:*I mean, it sorta does, but it doesn't really give us a clear "she could have done X instead" alternative to think about. Like, you can reasonably speculate that joining the Wards from the beginning would have been better, but then maybe Coil would have succeeded in his plan. And at the end none of this even matters much because of Scion destroy almost everything. I think it would be a much less interesting story if there was some obviously correct choice that Taylor just doesn't make. I see two big reasons why. One is that in real life, like Worm, it's really difficult to figure out what the right thing is to do. The more power you have, the harder it is. If the narrative provided a correct choice that Taylor doesn't go with for whatever reason, I think it would undermine a lot of what had happened up to that point. The second is that it would make the story a much less nuanced exploration of utilitarianism. At the end of the story, Taylor is about a good of a person as you can be from a utilitarian standpoint. Yet she is wretched and full of regrets. Also, Milky Moor is operating under this assumption that you can only have a good character if that character has flaws which the narrative punishes them for. It's kind of a narrow view on what makes for good characters.
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Aug 14, 2017 23:24
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Is "free will doesn't really exist" that controversial of a stance?
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Aug 15, 2017 22:48
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