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specklebang posted:I think this might be interesting to you: http://www.amazon.com/From-Hell-ebook/dp/B0055SXWLG/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1373301361&sr=1-1&keywords=from+hell+ian Someone tell me if there's a quick way to tell whether a book is self-published or not.
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Jul 8, 2013 17:40
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General Battuta posted:Someone tell me if there's a quick way to tell whether a book is self-published or not. Reading it. Grimwall posted:drat, this is extraordinary! After all this talk of batshit crazy rear end in a top hat sci-fi writers, along comes this fine loving gentleman. Well, Heinlein's one of the batshit crazy rear end in a top hat sci-fi writers, for books like Farnham's Freehold, Starship Troopers, and I Will Fear No Evil, which I put down when (don't read this) the old man who'd just got a brain transplant, or something, into his hot secretary's body, in which she was still conscious, was looking in the mirror saying "I wish I could look at this all day" and she replied "Well it's your body". (See?) That's when I put it down, anyway. On the other hand, being a good writer, writing about hosed-up stuff, and being a good person are three qualities that don't have much to do with each other. And on the third hand one doesn't become as massively influential as Heinlein simply by writing hosed-up screeds.
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Jul 8, 2013 17:54
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General Battuta posted:Someone tell me if there's a quick way to tell whether a book is self-published or not. Blood Song was self published. And it was awesome. I haven't finished From Hell yet but I can assure you it is not awesome. See my comments on it in the last couple pages.
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Jul 8, 2013 18:46
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VanSandman posted:Does anyone have any good recommendations for a fantasy novel or series that is relatively optimistic? I'm just not very into the whole GRRM grim-and-gritty-'realism' schtick. If you don't mind a bit of a rant, I like my fantasy to be, well, fantasy. I already know people suck, I'd like to get away from that for a while. I've tried reading the Wheel of Time series and didn't like it very much. I also like urban fantasy quite a bit - I've read the Dresden Files, Rivers of London, Felix Castor, the Rook, and some others. General Battuta posted:Someone tell me if there's a quick way to tell whether a book is self-published or not.
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Jul 8, 2013 20:20
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Can somebody recommend me a fantasy series that has decent female characters in? They don't have to be the protagonist but it would be nice if they were. I'm not really interested in fantasy romance books, but romance as a part of a bigger story is cool. I have previously read the Mistborn series and really liked them, and I remember liking Trudi Canavan's Magicians Guild series although I read them ages ago so I forget a fair bit about them. It doesn't have to be magic stuff though, I'm open to anything. I like war, politics, quests, whatever! I've also never read any sci-fi before either so I'm totally up for giving that a try too.
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Jul 8, 2013 20:38
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I like Elizabeth Moon's stuff-- start with Sheepfarmer's Daughter if you can handle fantasy that you can absolutely tell was written in the 80s, or Oath of Fealty for a more 'modern' feel. Main character of the first series is a woman and there is absolutely no romance at all; the later series has more divided viewpoints but all the women have better things to do with their time than get swept off their feet.
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Jul 8, 2013 20:54
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N. K. Jemisin's Dreamblood duology had great female characters in each book.
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Jul 8, 2013 21:02
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Dr Scoofles posted:Can somebody recommend me a fantasy series that has decent female characters in? They don't have to be the protagonist but it would be nice if they were. I'm not really interested in fantasy romance books, but romance as a part of a bigger story is cool. I have previously read the Mistborn series and really liked them, and I remember liking Trudi Canavan's Magicians Guild series although I read them ages ago so I forget a fair bit about them. It doesn't have to be magic stuff though, I'm open to anything. I like war, politics, quests, whatever! I've also never read any sci-fi before either so I'm totally up for giving that a try too. The archetypal women's fantasy book is The Mists of Avalon but it's practically sopping with estrogen so be warned. Terry Pratchett's Equal Rites and sequels, Guy Gavriel Kay's Lions of Al-Rassan though it's more of an ensemble cast with female members, Lois McMaster Bujold's The Spirit Ring (her first novel so a little flawed). Elizabeth Moon's stuff isn't bad but it's basically her Dungeons & Dragons paladin as a novel and it shows.
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Jul 8, 2013 21:06
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General Battuta posted:Someone tell me if there's a quick way to tell whether a book is self-published or not. If there is a publisher, the first few pages will identify it. For example, the book I suggested, From Hell, is self-published. The quality of a book has little to do with ow it is published in these modern times. Each book must be judged by the quality of the story. Amazon will show you the first few pages if you click on the book picture. While the volume of badly written garbage is almost overwhelming since self-publishing has no basic standards, I have discovered some real gems and watched some self-publis\hed authors achieve great success. Virtually all self-publishing comes out on ebook format and the samples can quickly reveal the wheat from the chaff. Ebooks have replaced print books the same way that the telephone has replaced the smoke signal.
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Jul 8, 2013 21:12
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Victorkm posted:Blood Song was self published. One man's awesome is another mans awful. I check out many of the referrals here and some look great to me and others look tiresome. I'm sorry you didn't like From Hell, our tastes are obviously different. May I ask if you downloaded the sample before you made the purchase?
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Jul 8, 2013 21:16
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Bunnita posted:These were great up until the very end. I was actually kind of angry at how they left it, I don't want to figure it out I want an ending . Others may enjoy it but it really didn't do it for me. Were you unhappy with the trilogy or just the first book? I've experienced the same thing where you read something great but the final resolution is well, not. I'm well into book 1 and having a great time.
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Jul 8, 2013 21:19
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Elizabeth Moon's stuff isn't bad but it's basically her Dungeons & Dragons paladin as a novel and it shows. The first trilogy, definitely, which is why I always try to qualify that particular recommendation. The stuff she's been putting out lately isn't so much like that, I find.
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Jul 8, 2013 21:22
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Dr Scoofles posted:Can somebody recommend me a fantasy series that has decent female characters in? You might like Jo Walton's The King's Peace / The King's Name. It's been called Arthurian but I recall the author stating that she didn't really think it was, as she'd taken enough liberties to ensure a somewhat different kind of story with a different outcome. For instance the closest equivalent to a Lancelot role is occupied by a woman.
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Jul 8, 2013 21:22
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Oh, what the hell, can we say Wheel of Time for female characters in? I feel like that's too much book to recommend to a new reader to the genre.
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Jul 8, 2013 21:27
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Oh, what the hell, can we say Wheel of Time for female characters in? I... would not recommend that on the strength of its female characters.
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Jul 8, 2013 21:36
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specklebang posted:If there is a publisher, the first few pages will identify it. For example, the book I suggested, From Hell, is self-published. The quality of a book has little to do with ow it is published in these modern times. Yes it does. Self-published books are overwhelmingly drek. You can feel free to cite counterexamples, but odds are that they, too, will be drek. Most published science fiction and fantasy, including many popular series, is also poo poo, but the odds are at least a little better you'll find something worth reading. Hieronymous Alloy posted:Oh, what the hell, can we say Wheel of Time for female characters in? I feel like that's too much book to recommend to a new reader to the genre. 
General Battuta fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Jul 8, 2013 |
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Jul 8, 2013 22:34
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Dr Scoofles posted:Can somebody recommend me a fantasy series that has decent female characters in? They don't have to be the protagonist but it would be nice if they were. I'm not really interested in fantasy romance books, but romance as a part of a bigger story is cool. Carol Berg mostly features male protagonists, but has good supporting female characters, even if most of them end up as love interests to someone or other; the romance doesn't take over the stories. Song of the Beast (standalone) changes perspective between the male and female leads, and the second book in her Collegia Magica trilogy features a female protagonist. The main character of Bridge of D'Arnath is also a woman, but though the first book is good the second falls apart pacing-wise so I'd recommend the others first. That's a very strong recommendation, mind. The Nightrunner trilogy by Lynn Flewelling also focuses on male characters, but the female characters are well-done, important to the story, and don't exist to be love interests, which is a bit more than I can say for Berg. Ellen Kushner's Riverside books are also pretty good. Swordspoint focuses on the male characters, but one of its sequels, The Privilege of the Sword, features a girl. Best to read Swordspoint first to get to know the characters, though. For YA, there's Howl's Moving Castle and its sequels by Diana Wynne Jones; and Garth Nix's Abhorsen series. And though I haven't read it myself, Kristin Cashore's Graceling series is supposed to be good. Hieronymous Alloy posted:Oh, what the hell, can we say Wheel of Time for female characters in? No. To quote one summary (emphasis mine): quote:Or you could read Jordan, of course. His women become indistinguishable after a while. They all sniff, smooth their skirts, and cross their arms under their breasts. They all call men woolheads. They all abuse men—and I also use that word advisedly; one of the three main male characters is subject to verbal abuse from his wife, the other to rape from a lover—so that their relationships are not equal. They also get into situations where they have to be half-naked all the time. No, ask Jordan. Not me.
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Jul 8, 2013 22:40
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specklebang posted:Were you unhappy with the trilogy or just the first book? I've experienced the same thing where you read something great but the final resolution is well, not. I'm well into book 1 and having a great time. I loved it until the last three paragraphs. I stayed up all night reading them, but the final conclusion bothered me.
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Jul 8, 2013 22:50
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Dr Scoofles posted:Can somebody recommend me a fantasy series that has decent female characters in? They don't have to be the protagonist but it would be nice if they were. I'm not really interested in fantasy romance books, but romance as a part of a bigger story is cool. I have previously read the Mistborn series and really liked them, and I remember liking Trudi Canavan's Magicians Guild series although I read them ages ago so I forget a fair bit about them. It doesn't have to be magic stuff though, I'm open to anything. I like war, politics, quests, whatever! I've also never read any sci-fi before either so I'm totally up for giving that a try too. Once again, I'll recommend Jim C Hines's The Princess Series. I would also recommend reading any of Tamora Pierce's series, but I personally have a soft spot for her Protector of the Small series and The Immortals series, both have strong female characters, without falling into Strong Female Character territory.
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Jul 8, 2013 22:52
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That's the thing. WoT has at least one good female character (Moiraine) and a bunch of horrible ones.
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Jul 8, 2013 23:59
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I thought the female characters were one of the main strengths of Melanie Rawn's Dragon Prince trilogy. I know I'm generalizing, but I tend not to like fantasy written by female authors, and Rawn was a huge exception to that. She somehow wrote male characters that acted like men and female characters that were undeniably women, yet both genders were equally strong and interesting characters in their own right.
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Jul 9, 2013 00:24
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Echo Cian posted:
It's pretty good. I haven't read the sequel to it though. Basically, it's about on the same level of "badass lead" that Mistborn has with Vin. I kinda liked it better though, cause it was sort of the reverse. Mistborn had Vin slowly becoming a badass over the course of the series, and Graceling had an already badass character learning to be more human.
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Jul 9, 2013 02:59
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My personal policy for self published books is avoid at all costs. The only argument in favour of self published authors I hear time and time again is "But what about Author X? His books were self published and were so successful that a publisher signed him up!" Yeah, hence he's no longer self published, and I'd be happy to give him a go now. Publishers are there for a reason and that's to pick out the quality stories and edit them into a readable state. I'm happy to let them do that job so I do t have to waste a loving second reading "indie" trash.
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Jul 9, 2013 03:21
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You're doing yourself a disservice if you avoid self-published books as a rule. If you don't want to bother curating them yourself (I don't blame you) at least pick up on some of the suggestions. And, no, the publisher's job isn't to "pick out quality stories". That's crazy and you know it.
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Jul 9, 2013 03:43
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There's too much genuinely good writing out there (much of it, alas, not SF/F) to waste time on self-published work. Bear in mind that books like The Dresden Files are often also 'suggested'.
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Jul 9, 2013 03:51
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General Battuta posted:There's too much genuinely good writing out there (much of it, alas, not SF/F) to waste time on self-published work. That's a lovely way to look at it. Good writing is good writing, whether it's from a self-published nobody or a published author.
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Jul 9, 2013 03:57
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General Battuta posted:There's too much genuinely good writing out there (much of it, alas, not SF/F) to waste time on self-published work. Bear in mind that books like The Dresden Files are often also 'suggested'. What about it is a waste of time if it's well-written? This conversation strikes me as absurd, it's like saying 'The major labels release far too much quality music for me to listen to anything released on an indie.'
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Jul 9, 2013 04:02
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The problem with self-published work isn't that it's self-published, it's that it's bad. This generally goes even for the works that are held up as exceptions. Thus the Dresden Files metaphor: even when a lot of people say something is good, it's often still embarrassingly awful. I agree, though, that this is probably not a super productive conversation for the thread. My opinions about the quality and worth of SF/F writing are probably more astringent than most. In a way it reminds me of a discussion that comes up a lot in the TD board games thread - whether works should be evaluated merely by their hedonic value ('it was fun!') or by some less subjective critical theory. I'm pretty strongly in favor of the latter; I think that fiction succeeds or fails on terms beyond 'I liked it  ', and that not all recommendations can be equally substantiated. But that's a topic for another place.
General Battuta fucked around with this message at 04:29 on Jul 9, 2013 |
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Jul 9, 2013 04:27
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TOOT BOOT posted:What about it is a waste of time if it's well-written? This conversation strikes me as absurd, it's like saying 'The major labels release far too much quality music for me to listen to anything released on an indie.' This is a bad analogy because indie bands still generally sign with record labels, they are just smaller, independent record labels - I mean, that's what 'indie' is short for. If you want to draw that comparison, you need to talk about authors that are printed by small, independent publishers, not self-published authors. It's really loving hard for a musician or band to foot the entire bill to produce their music in a manner analogous to self-published authors because there's a great deal more overhead. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but when someone says "hey check out this indie band" they are almost always going to be talking about someone signed with an independent label.
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Jul 9, 2013 04:35
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Self-published ebooks are not analogous with indie music, not at all. The difference with music is you still need to have some level of proficiency/talent with musical instruments, recording equipment, etc, to release even the most lo-fi of indie records*. You need zero proficiency with grammar and spelling (not to mention plot and character development, dialogue, description, research, worldbuilding, etc) to self-publish an ebook on Amazon. *I guess the exception would be The Shaggs. Hedrigall fucked around with this message at 04:56 on Jul 9, 2013 |
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Jul 9, 2013 04:41
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Echo Cian posted:The Nightrunner trilogy by Lynn Flewelling also focuses on male characters, but the female characters are well-done, important to the story, and don't exist to be love interests, which is a bit more than I can say for Berg. I enjoyed her Tamir trilogy as well. Same universe, few hundred years earlier. Bunch of female characters with interesting differences.
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Jul 9, 2013 04:54
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General Battuta posted:The problem with self-published work isn't that it's self-published, it's that it's bad. This generally goes even for the works that are held up as exceptions. Thus the Dresden Files metaphor: even when a lot of people say something is good, it's often still embarrassingly awful. The vast majority of people out there either can't be hosed to really think about why they enjoy something like Dresden files or are simply not well read enough to tell the difference between it and some other, more nuanced, work of fiction. Many others are perfectly aware of the flaws in what you call "embarrassingly awful" and yet are able to appreciate the good parts of the work in spite of said flaws. You have to keep in mind that not everyone has as strong/bitter opinions about writing as you do. Yes, there are loads of people out there who recommend works based purely on their enjoyment of it. There are also many others who like to take a more critical look at what they read. There's no reason why both can't co-exist. This same dull debate goes on all the time in the gaming side of things and it never goes anywhere because nerds are too obsessive to let up even an inch.
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Jul 9, 2013 05:04
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You aren't wrong about any of that, but I just don't think there's much value to found in a purely subjective hugbox discussion. 'I liked it. Sorry to hear you didn't! Have you tried X? May I recommend Y?' makes for a much less interesting forums thread than real critical engagement. Which, I know, I should try to present an exemplar of; I've just finished Connie Willis' alternately frustrating and brilliant Blackout/All Clear and want to do a post about it. On an unrelated note, barring perhaps the shared theme of SF/F being a cesspool, I don't know if anyone here pays attention to or cares about the tiny incestuous horrible world of SFFWA politics, but it's been pretty hilarious of late.
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Jul 9, 2013 05:15
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General Battuta posted:On an unrelated note, barring perhaps the shared theme of SF/F being a cesspool, I don't know if anyone here pays attention to or cares about the tiny incestuous horrible world of SFFWA politics, but it's been pretty hilarious of late. Do tell. I love it when nerds have slapfights. 
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Jul 9, 2013 06:50
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Uh, long story short, but there's a magazine for SFFWA members called the Bulletin. One of the recent issues carried a fantasy-cheesecake bikini barbarian cover, and this led to some discussion of sexism in the Bulletin (reasonably, since sexism is a fairly entrenched force in the SF/F community as a whole). Interlude here for a classic internet denizen response: quote:I think this is all blown out of proportion. Too many people are too sensitive to things that aren’t really an issue. Maybe they are bothered because the image turns them on, and that makes them uncomfortable? As a follow-up, a later issue of the Bulletin contained a column by Resnick and Malzberg, two old-school male writers, discussing the reaction. They, uh...really went off about it! People objecting to the cover were accused of censorship, neo-fascism, and thought control. quote:Take a look at the cover to a recent edition of The SWFA Bulletin, issue number 200. There’s a warrior woman on it. Not a hell of a lot different from a few hundred warrior women who have graced the covers of our field’s books and magazines ever since C. L. Moore (a woman) created Jirel of Joiry. I think the warrior woman is wearing boots, but [though] it’s pretty dark and shaded in that area, I know she's displaying less flesh than just about any bikini you can see on a beach in the country today.  Pretty standard kerfuffle about objectification so far, with the standard counterarguments that oh, who gets up in arms about all the half-naked male barbarians, have you looked at a romance cover/listened to a rap song lately, so on. I'm not sure exactly how this came in, but it turned out that Resnick and Malzberg had a Anyway, the good stuff: at some point someone begins leaking private posts from a board where a number of older SFWA members maintain a community, including Jerry Pournelle. This was an absolute gold mine. It included some discussion of past SFWA drama (including the incident where Harlan Ellison groped SFWA Grand Master Connie Willis on stage at an awards banquet), this gem about the good old days of women at conventions: quote:And at least one bit of boorishness became almost a conventional practice at conventions a sort of standing bad joke. And, best of all, this possibly-even-serious suggestion that the best thing to do to prevent SFWA from being taken over by feminists would be to arrange a plot to elect Theodore Beale, aka Vox Day, an anti-immigrant, anti-Semitic, anti-feminist biotruths dude, to the SFWA presidency, since he could be easily controlled and removed. This rather than electing John Scalzi: quote:Subject: Das Org quote:I’ll rememind all you geniuses of some things I said during the election, so when the time comes to cull SFWA of Evil, you won’t have trouble deciding where to send me:
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Jul 9, 2013 07:23
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Thanks for all the suggestions, I'm going to make myself a cup of tea and check them out! I will avoid WoT though, I did make a start on the first one some years ago and for whatever reason dropped it, it never really interested me. I'm glad to see from earlier posts I've saved myself a load of hassle not getting invested in the series.
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Jul 9, 2013 07:34
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Cranky old men getting taken over by reality and them flailing against it is always entertaining. The cabal of "treating women not like objects and poo poo". That's something that has to be prevented!
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Jul 9, 2013 09:16
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Dr Scoofles posted:Can somebody recommend me a fantasy series that has decent female characters in? They don't have to be the protagonist but it would be nice if they were. I'm not really interested in fantasy romance books, but romance as a part of a bigger story is cool. I have previously read the Mistborn series and really liked them, and I remember liking Trudi Canavan's Magicians Guild series although I read them ages ago so I forget a fair bit about them. It doesn't have to be magic stuff though, I'm open to anything. I like war, politics, quests, whatever! I've also never read any sci-fi before either so I'm totally up for giving that a try too. Robin Hobbs books are good, and have good female characters as the protagonist. The Liveship Traders Triology have a female as protagonist, as well as the Rain Wild Chronicles. There is magic in her world, but it is more subtle ie no fireballs. One interesting part of her series is to follow the slow return of dragons, without having them burst through a portal like Dragonlance/Malazan. Be warned, Hobb has a tendency to make her protagonists really suffer which can be too much at times.
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Jul 9, 2013 09:44
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Robin Hobb's books are basically for people who get off on the self-pity and sense of superiority they receive when they identify with the protagonist's incessant victimization. That's my take.
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Jul 9, 2013 10:00
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Megazver posted:Robin Hobb's books are basically for people who get off on the self-pity and sense of superiority they receive when they identify with the protagonist's incessant victimization. That's my take. To be fair, Hobb is not the only one causing her protagonists to suffer. For instance, Tad Williams comes to mind. And I think you just incidentally described the typical goon in that sentence.
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Jul 9, 2013 10:45
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