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Trainmonk posted:Wow yeah gonna enjoy reading every straight white male gamer opinion about how the sexual assault thing "totally works". It definitely makes you uncomfortable and that's what he was clearly going for, but is it okay...? i don't know, it seems pretty germane that nobody's actually played the game, so any statement about this game's politics/problematic-icity/whatever, whether positive or negative, might be misinformed? see also: the castle doctrine
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Aug 15, 2013 19:49
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TychoCelchuuu posted:When one of the things touching off this conversation is the report of someone who has played the game I am not sure it is entirely accurate to say that nobody's actually played the game. i think an analysis of the entire game is necessary to really see if something like this "works"- the rape scene in Straw Dogs is horrific out of context, and very arguably horrific in context, but criticisms of it that don't take the full context of the film into account can't be considered informed
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Aug 15, 2013 19:55
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Trainmonk posted:No, it's not necessary. The criticism is that rape shouldn't be in video games, not how effective the commentary is. i don't really agree with this at all, except perhaps in the sense that most game writing isn't anywhere near good enough to deal with a subject like that effectively.
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Aug 15, 2013 20:03
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Trainmonk posted:You're missing the point entirely, over and over. The commentary is worthless because it doesn't even work. Look at all these people, including you, who don't even agree with what it's saying. once again, it's germane that nobody has the knowledge of the full context of that scene. not to mention that lack of consensus about meaning is not indicative of the effectiveness of any given work.
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Aug 15, 2013 20:06
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Trainmonk posted:Once again, it shouldn't even be there so who cares if I know exactly what it means. that's impossible to say without knowing how the scene fits in context, come off it.
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Aug 15, 2013 20:08
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Mutation posted:Hotline Miami 1 made me feel really gross and uncomfortable as I played it. yeah, I mean, frankly, this game looks to be extraordinarily provocative, and disgust and hatred are perfectly reasonable responses to provocation- Despite kinda getting what they're going for, I really hate Straw Dogs and say, Lars Von Trier films, for instance. what I'm against is the pointless dogmatism based on preview footage and interviews. Jason Rohrer's The Castle Doctrine has had similar problems with people discussing the game's politics without even playing it.
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Aug 15, 2013 20:13
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voltron lion force posted:Well that is what a parody is ain't it? The over the top imitation of the actual act is what gets the point across. I don't think it's a parody, and it's very weak if it is- I'm against the idea that pointing out a problem in your game constitutes commentary. the most interesting interpretation so far is that it's a grotesque mutation of the first game- pressing a button to inflict violence, but twisted even further into something disgusting. I know the plot somehow involves copycat killers of the first game's protagonist, which seems like it might tie into that theme.
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Aug 15, 2013 20:16
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Mutation posted:Cactus has no qualms with shocking people, and Hotline Miami 2 already seems like it's going the self-aware route. Two of the storylines are about a movie being based on HL1, and a gang that was inspired by the events of HL1, right? Do you think that this is going to be some sort of uncomfortable commentary on the level of "You're all horrible for liking this kind of stuff"? I'd be surprised, because the theme of HL1 didn't seem to be "You're terrible for liking these sorts of games"- in fact, it didn't seem to be didactic at all.
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Aug 15, 2013 20:17
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Holepunchio posted:[re: the treatment of women in HLM] I don't know, I always thought it was interesting that Jacketman never seemed to actually give a poo poo about the woman he rescued, yet went off on a revenge mission anyway because that's like, what men in violence-driven media are supposed to do. excerpt from a longer post in CineD: SubG posted:...The treatment of women is also surprisingly similar. It's slightly problematic in that I think both works otherise women by trying to place them outside the violence-as-fetish/violence-as-anathema dialectic in this sort of violent `guy' fiction, but I think their heart is in the right place; the men in these works aren't so much interacting with women, but rather the illusion of women conjured as required by their violence-driven inner narratives. Feels Villeneuve fucked around with this message at 20:50 on Aug 15, 2013 |
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Aug 15, 2013 20:46
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Trainmonk posted:I don't think that and I didn't make any sort of implication to that. All I said was that the media is good at normalizing rape. This is true, but I don't think it's a good case for deciding that it's completely verboten to be put into media.
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Aug 15, 2013 21:03
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Trainmonk posted:Nope, I clearly said that everyone is free to be as terrible as they want with their "artistic vision". Your position seems to still be that all fictionalized depictions of rape are unambiguously bad, regardless of their context.
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Aug 15, 2013 21:06
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Trainmonk posted:Unless it's a fictitious example of rape in like a textbook, yeah that's basically how I feel. What do you mean "fictitious"? I mean, obviously a depicted rape in fiction "actually happened" diegetically (unless it's like, a dream sequence or something), but we still understand diegesis in fiction to be fictitious, don't we?
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Aug 15, 2013 21:11
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Trainmonk posted:What the hell is wrong with you, that is way beyond the point. Whatever point you're trying to make isn't coming across, because your use of "fictitious" is confusing.
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Aug 15, 2013 21:13
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Babe Magnet posted:No it's not? He's talking about a rape as depicted in a textbook, free of any narrative setting or greater context than "this is what rape is, no names have been used to protect the innocent". This is getting pretty out of hand. yeah, sorry about the descent into semantics, I was just personally confused.
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Aug 15, 2013 21:20
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Closet Cyborg posted:
I don't think this is the point- and if it is, it isn't a very good one, because the reasonable response would be that the developers are the ones responsible for making the audience enjoy the game; the violence is alluring because they attached it to a mechanically thrilling game. So if the point was "You're terrible for enjoying this", it's undercut by the fact that it wouldn't be enjoyable if the game wasn't fun to play (see: Spec Ops The Line).
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Aug 15, 2013 21:47
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Miltank posted:I don't think it is fair to criticize a work of art for succeeding technically within its medium. The focus of Hotline was "you do these things because you are told to, you keep doing them because you like it." I'm not trying to do that- but if a game's point is that it's wrong to enjoy something, then it's relevant that the creators of the game were the ones who went through the trouble of making violence enjoyable. This is besides the point anyway, because I don't think "It's wrong to enjoy fictionalized violence" is really the point of HLM.
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Aug 15, 2013 21:59
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