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Gatts posted:Is it just me, but does something like this not sound like slavery? Don't prisoners also do some kind of work as well for no cost/low cost? Especially in areas with (I don't have a source, just anecdotal info) higher rates of incarceration or stricter sentencing for African Americans...I don't know how or why it's possible. It is slavery because slavery is perfectly legal if they committed a crime, which is why the hugely black inmate population of Angola picks cotton for the white administration with nary a peep of protest. quote:Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. Don't worry, while we don't have cotton to pick in California Prison Industry Authority has plenty of profitable projects to use our inmates on 
atelier morgan fucked around with this message at 15:32 on Jul 1, 2013 |
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Jul 1, 2013 15:29
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So we basically have slavery, prisoners convicted of a crime, and a legal statement (I'm assuming that's what that is) allowing it, in 2013. In America, bastion of FREEDOM. I think my mind is blown at this realization. VV Man, I must have been high as gently caress when studying the constitution and glossing over that statement. Gatts fucked around with this message at 16:43 on Jul 1, 2013 |
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Jul 1, 2013 16:19
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Gatts posted:So we basically have slavery, prisoners convicted of a crime, and a legal statement (I'm assuming that's what that is) allowing it, in 2013. In America, bastion of FREEDOM. I think my mind is blown at this realization. That's (part of) the text of the 13th Amendment: the one that banned slavery. Except for where it didn't.
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Jul 1, 2013 16:42
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Jerry Manderbilt posted:Welp, looks like I'll have to have my parents drive me up to Berkeley and back for work Depending on where you are, the Capitol Corridor might actually be a suitable replacement for you.
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Jul 1, 2013 18:33
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Dusseldorf posted:The "tourist district" in SF also happens to be the financial district and the "outskirts of LA" happens to be about a quarter mile from downtown LA and the heart of the cities transit hub. Yeah as cynical as I am, the highspeed rail plan is pretty good for LA because of Union Station. Now the proposed Las Vegas highspeed line that will probably never happen always ends up being planned through San Bernadino or whatever.
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Jul 1, 2013 19:04
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I was just at jury service this morning and a video we watched started with "California, the greatest state in the union." I smiled and thought of this thread. There were also several scenes with the waving bear flag overlaid on them. Does every state have videos like this needlessly filled with cheesy state-patriotism?
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Jul 1, 2013 19:38
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Zeitgueist posted:Yeah as cynical as I am, the highspeed rail plan is pretty good for LA because of Union Station. The Las Vegas rail line has been floating around forever and will never be built because America. http://la.curbed.com/archives/2013/03/paul_ryan_trying_to_kill_highspeed_rail_to_vegas.php
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Jul 1, 2013 21:11
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etalian posted:Looks like people who depend on BART will be in for a miserable commute over the next few days: So help me, when I am governor, I will crush the BART union like the rightwingest fascist motherfucker you have ever heard of and that goddamned train will run 24 hours a day and anyone that urinates on it will be used as brake pads.
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Jul 1, 2013 21:19
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VideoTapir posted:Holy poo poo...I've driven through Bakersfield a few times, it never LOOKED that dry. Why are we complaining about Bakersfield using water? Mainly, what they do is irrigate the absurdly productive farmland that is there. Bakersfield is horrible in ways uncountable, but turning water into food is not one of them.
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Jul 1, 2013 21:24
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Didn't realize that the high speed rail would travel from Riverside to Sacramento, a 6 hour drive I do often, and want to kill myself doing it. Flying, while itself only takes a little over an hour, ends up being a 5 hour ordeal with the family with terminal waiting and just plain ol' wasting time around an airport. It would be nice if the HSR was a nice middle ground.
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Jul 1, 2013 21:40
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Have you seen my apex seals? I seem to have lost them.
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Isn't the Vegas line just for people to go spend a bunch of money in Nevada?
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Jul 1, 2013 21:54
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Glass of Milk posted:The Las Vegas rail line has been floating around forever and will never be built because America. FCKGW posted:Isn't the Vegas line just for people to go spend a bunch of money in Nevada? Well the linked article and FCKGW's comment pretty much put the problem in a nutshell. The article says a train from Victorville to LV, and honestly everyone who's made the drive knows that after you've hit Victorville it's smooth, if boring, sailing. Maybe worse coming back on Sunday, but you're still going to spend 2+ hours in traffic getting to Victorville. And yes, it's pretty much a highspeed method for taking cash from CA to NV, especially since nobody is going to take a train from LV to a desert wasteland that is hours from LA, where they will now have no car. Any plan that doesn't have a train coming into Union Station is hilarious foolish.
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Jul 1, 2013 22:10
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Lycus posted:I was just at jury service this morning and a video we watched started with "California, the greatest state in the union." I smiled and thought of this thread. There were also several scenes with the waving bear flag overlaid on them. Does every state have videos like this needlessly filled with cheesy state-patriotism? I haven't seen one in Idaho, but usually any promotional video for our state is a solitary old guy fly-fishing.
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Jul 1, 2013 22:16
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Zeitgueist posted:Well the linked article and FCKGW's comment pretty much put the problem in a nutshell. The article says a train from Victorville to LV, and honestly everyone who's made the drive knows that after you've hit Victorville it's smooth, if boring, sailing. Maybe worse coming back on Sunday, but you're still going to spend 2+ hours in traffic getting to Victorville. It's a pretty bizarre concept, ideally any rail system would at least provide point to point connectivity between major economic center/tourist traps 
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Jul 1, 2013 23:51
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etalian posted:Looks like people who depend on BART will be in for a miserable commute over the next few days: http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2013/07/01/bart-workers-officially-strike/ Its so hard to find a decent article that actually quotes anyone from the union, its mostly BARTS SPOKEPERSON says unions are greedy as gently caress! "The unions were seeking a 5 percent annual raise over the next three years." BART of course claims they offered 8%.. why would they do that? oh because they wanted to make it look like theyre somehow stupid enough to offer more than the union is demanding, when in reality they just were requiring way more pension/healthcare contributions from employees cbsnews.com "BART said Saturday that train operators and station agents in the unions average about $71,000 in base salary and $11,000 in overtime annually. The workers also pay a flat $92 monthly fee for health insurance." Whats ridiculous is i bet this is including their pension and benefits as part of their salary, just like how every single source of "journalism" was quoting RIDICULOUS UAW numbers because they were including all their pensions and poo poo.
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Jul 2, 2013 00:04
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coolskillrex remix posted:Whats ridiculous is i bet this is including their pension and benefits as part of their salary, just like how every single source of "journalism" was quoting RIDICULOUS UAW numbers because they were including all their pensions and poo poo. I don't see how people could survive in the bay area without good raises, the cost of living is impressively expensive especially for how the tech sector boom made rents go crazy over the last decade.
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Jul 2, 2013 00:09
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etalian posted:I don't see how people could survive in the bay area without good raises, the cost of living is impressively expensive especially for how the tech sector boom made rents go crazy over the last decade. As long as they quote numbers higher than the median many people will fall for the crap-barrel tactic.
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Jul 2, 2013 00:21
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etalian posted:I don't see how people could survive in the bay area without good raises, the cost of living is impressively expensive especially for how the tech sector boom made rents go crazy over the last decade. The vast majority of people get screwed when it comes to raises so the concept of a raise is something that is "earned" because the owner is making so much loving money off of them they just go crazy and decide to piss/trickle it down to them. All this being said I do think unions for public sector tend to abuse their position, which is "BART will just bend backwards because at the end of the day its government money/debt"
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Jul 2, 2013 00:36
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coolskillrex remix posted:All this being said I do think unions for public sector tend to abuse their position, which is "BART will just bend backwards because at the end of the day its government money/debt" As a public employee in California who took pay cuts for three years because of the budget crises and has never actually seen a raise I suggest you stop basing your opinions on absolutely nothing/poo poo pulled out of your rear end. e: "These evil unions are destroying our city" is the news response to literally every transit strike ever so why does anybody wonder why city governments keep refusing to negotiate in good faith when they know a strike will improve their bargaining position? The solution back in the day was no-fare strikes where the union would keep everything running and just not charge, but that poo poo was made illegal because it meant the PR was on the union's side and we can't allow that. atelier morgan fucked around with this message at 00:49 on Jul 2, 2013 |
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Jul 2, 2013 00:45
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etalian posted:It's a pretty bizarre concept, ideally any rail system would at least provide point to point connectivity between major economic center/tourist traps FCKGW posted:Isn't the Vegas line just for people to go spend a bunch of money in Nevada? It is ridiculous that the line doesn't end in LA somewhere that people will actually want to go. But think of all the parking garages that can be built in Victorville...in fact, turning Victorville into a giant parking garage would be an improvement. Having suffered through lots of trips to Vegas as a kid, I can tell you that it's not the drive in that kills you, it's the possibility of an 8+ hour drive home. I'm operating on the assumption that people who want to gamble are going to do it regardless of whether there's a cheap way to get to Vegas- either bite the bullet and make the travel plans or put that money into some tribal casino. Edit: Also, San Diego had two rulings on stupid lawsuits. Bank of America wanted to prosecute a dude who was writing protest messages in chalk, but a jury found him innocent: http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-chalk-verdict-20130701,0,1617754.story Judge declares that yoga is not religious, because of course it isn't who would think such a thing (only the plaintiffs): http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/yoga-classes-offered-san-diego-school-district-inherently-religious-judge-article-1.1387410 Glass of Milk fucked around with this message at 01:06 on Jul 2, 2013 |
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Jul 2, 2013 00:52
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UberJew posted:As a public employee in California who took pay cuts for three years because of the budget crises and has never actually seen a raise I suggest you stop basing your opinions on absolutely nothing/poo poo pulled out of your rear end. So are you in a union or no? You must not be in san jose because unions here certainly didnt allow that to happen
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Jul 2, 2013 01:40
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coolskillrex remix posted:All this being said I do think unions for public sector tend to abuse their position, which is "BART will just bend backwards because at the end of the day its government money/debt" This doesn't make any sense. Unions in the public sector aren't abusing their position by doing what unions do, which is fight for their employees and strike when needed.
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Jul 2, 2013 01:44
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coolskillrex remix posted:So are you in a union or no? SEIU Local 1000, state employee out of Sacramento. If it's local employees you're talking about then they may not have taken cuts and if they were CCPOA they got off without a scratch but I can assure you any state employees in San Jose covered by SEIU bargaining units (which is most of them) took pay cuts from 2010-2012 because those agreements were statewide. Your local union for the public sector may have abused its position, and the CCPOA sure as hell does, but you don't have a foot to stand on trying to say an amorphous 'unions for the public sector' did.
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Jul 2, 2013 01:51
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UberJew posted:As a public employee in California who took pay cuts for three years because of the budget crises and has never actually seen a raise I suggest you stop basing your opinions on absolutely nothing/poo poo pulled out of your rear end. Yeah I was a public employee in the North Bay and anyone who thinks they get gold plated retirements and annual COLAs are delusional. I left after a 10% pay cut, followed by a 10% furlough and an increase in employee retirement/health care contributions. CA state/local government have been in a horrible death spiral for a long time that has only recently started to abate. I was part of SEIU, but it doesn't matter when the state is cutting your budget to the bone. If there's a budget shortfall, it's going to hit the employees first because a fuckton easier for an elected official to cut public employees than it is for them to cut public services, particularly if it's in the golden shrine that is public safety. ^^^ EDIT: Local 1021, in county government. Most local govt got cut like the state with varying severity (based mostly on the change in local property tax receipts). Nuclearmonkee fucked around with this message at 01:56 on Jul 2, 2013 |
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Jul 2, 2013 01:52
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Nuclearmonkee posted:Yeah I was a public employee in the North Bay and anyone who thinks they get gold plated retirements and annual COLAs are delusional. I left after a 10% pay cut, followed by a 10% furlough and an increase in employee retirement/health care contributions. CA state/local government have been in a horrible death spiral for a long time that has only recently started to abate. I've worked for the state for 5 years, I have not seen a single COLA and it is only in this month that the pay cuts are abating and I'll finally be back to making as much as I did three years ago. If the current contract negotiations succeed then I'll finally see a 5% raise in July 2014. poo poo has been bad.
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Jul 2, 2013 02:19
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UberJew posted:I've worked for the state for 5 years, I have not seen a single COLA and it is only in this month that the pay cuts are abating and I'll finally be back to making as much as I did three years ago. If the current contract negotiations succeed then I'll finally see a 5% raise in July 2014. Lazy government moocher with your pay-raise! 
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Jul 2, 2013 02:23
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BART union can have raises as soon as BART starts running past midnight.
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Jul 2, 2013 02:41
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UberJew posted:As a public employee in California who took pay cuts for three years because of the budget crises and has never actually seen a raise I suggest you stop basing your opinions on absolutely nothing/poo poo pulled out of your rear end. Man, two days ago my Dad was telling me all about how they make as much money as an entry-level college grad and how they don't pay for their own healthcare and how we already pay for it with the BART fare, and when they went on strike he told me to "do research and see just how disliked the BART union is".
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Jul 2, 2013 02:48
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"do research" = read the same right wing blog I do.
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Jul 2, 2013 02:54
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All Of The Dicks posted:BART union can have raises as soon as BART starts running past midnight. They have zero control over that.
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Jul 2, 2013 02:55
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Like, when I can use 'train' to do things past halfway through the night, you can use 'paycheck' to do things past the 15th of the month, is the bargain I am pursuing here. edit: I do not believe the union has no control over that issue. The parties involved in the running of the transit system necessarilly have control over the running of it. This is from a 2011 article, but it illustrates the relationship: "Running trains year round with the proposed new hours would cost up to $1.2 million annually, BART officials said. But the cost would be less if an employee union sanctioned the use of part-time employees for the extra labor to stay open later, BART managers said. Antonette Byrant, president of Amalgamated Transit Union Local 1555, said she saw no reason why the union would object." http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_17950450 All Of The Dicks fucked around with this message at 03:06 on Jul 2, 2013 |
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Jul 2, 2013 02:56
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Yeah but the union has no say in how late the trains run; they would probably be glad to add the extra employees to their membership. The main reason for the overnight shutdowns is that they don't have enough redundant track to do regular maintenance without shutting down. Staffing is a distant second. withak fucked around with this message at 03:07 on Jul 2, 2013 |
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Jul 2, 2013 03:05
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VideoTapir posted:"do research" = read the same right wing blog I do. He also regularly blasts the teachers union for protecting older tenured members and pink-slipping newer ones (I saw this happen after ny sophomore year in high school). Man though if the median wage is really only $71000 then it definitely doesn't sound like BART operators are living high on the hog like mg Dad describes. e: "i don't get a pension and have to have a 401 k!"
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Jul 2, 2013 03:11
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BART running all night would be awesome but yeah that's more up to legislators than the people on the ground.
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Jul 2, 2013 03:11
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All Of The Dicks posted:Like, when I can use 'train' to do things past halfway through the night, you can use 'paycheck' to do things past the 15th of the month, is the bargain I am pursuing here. Were there sufficient demand, I'm sure it would happen as service hours are largely based on demand. The alternative is a fee hike to provide 24 hour service for a small number of people which doesn't make sense for BART which is largely a commuter service. There is 24 hour public transit service in the Bay Area though, as I remember using it. If you don't have coverage, then that's because you live somewhere that probably doesn't have enough ridership to merit it. Really though, there are only a few places in the entire US with 24 hour rapid transit train service (Chicago Red and Blue Lines, DC Metro, NYC Subways) and they have way more ridership than BART. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_rapid_transit_systems_by_ridership withak posted:Yeah but the union has no say in how late the trains run; they would probably be glad to add the extra employees to their membership. Yeah you need lots of redundancy in the system to allow for maintenance, which costs $$$ and isn't worth it without huge ridership.
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Jul 2, 2013 03:17
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Best solution would be a second transbay tube between OAK and SFO. Or further south and tell the peninsula NIMBYs to go gently caress themselves. But that would require actual capitol expenditure, not just the minimum spending required to keep the system from falling apart this quarter. Things are already set up to be a mess once the Warm Springs and Berryessa projects are finished because they will be adding a lot more riders without increasing the transbay capacity at all (which is currently very close to 100%).
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Jul 2, 2013 03:17
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withak posted:
I refuse to believe that. I truly believe that a train track can survive without maintenance long enough to get drunk people home on Saturday night. In summary, I will continue to be a giant dick about anyone and anything involved with BART until someone involved makes it actually work. I do not care who. Until then, I will hate them all.
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Jul 2, 2013 03:18
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Apparently there has been no negotiation since Sunday night. I guess everyone just took today off. edit: I don't now which side is dilly-dallying at the moment, but the other side missed out big time by not getting out there photos and video of themselves sitting alone at a conference room table asking where the other side is for people to see on the news when they finally get home. withak fucked around with this message at 03:29 on Jul 2, 2013 |
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Jul 2, 2013 03:24
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All Of The Dicks posted:I refuse to believe that. I truly believe that a train track can survive without maintenance long enough to get drunk people home on Saturday night. They need time to clean the poo poo out of the escalators and also: http://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2012/07/24/why-does-bart-need-to-do-nightly-maintenance/
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Jul 2, 2013 03:24
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All Of The Dicks posted:I refuse to believe that. I truly believe that a train track can survive without maintenance long enough to get drunk people home on Saturday night. It's a good thing you're an experienced transit engineer, then, otherwise holding an opinion on something you know nothing about would be really stupid
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Jul 2, 2013 03:54
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Waaaah the Christians are out to get me