The Kitchen Knife Thread

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Scott808: Jul 11, 2001

An article/review about the Misen Kickstarter knife - https://www.wired.com/2016/10/review-misen-chefs-knife/

quote:

Burke�s findings were damning. He used a Rockwell hardness tester to verify Misen�s hardness claims.

�The performance of this knife is very lacking,� Burke says. �Just on par with an old Chicago Cutlery piece. Hardness tested at 51.5 [Rockwell] at the heel, 51 mid point, then going up to 56 near the tip.�

Chicago Cutlery slight aside, the results were so surprising, the hardness so much lower than the 58-59 that Misen claims, that Burke recalibrated his machine and re-tested using a different method, but it produced the same results. He even ran the machine one more time on an industry-standardized block of steel, which came out exactly where it should have.

Burke realized that the varying hardness numbers�not a good thing�were likely the result of improper heat treatment and cooling, meaning the thicker parts of the blade would be softer. (See my photo.) This means that while you could put a decent edge on it, like you could do with any knife, it would dull quickly and have the very undesirable trait of becoming worse with every sharpening, as you worked into the thicker, softer center of the knife.

Once Burke started testing how it cut, he texted me a picture of the blister that was forming on his finger where it came in contact with the spine of the knife. He also found edge angle discrepancies with Misen�s claims, which explained why I was having chef�s knife-style results instead of something more like a santoku. He also performed a blade-cutting test that involved a scale to learn how much pressure was necessary to repeatedly cut through a hemp rope. He compared it with a pair of Japanese knives that retail for $129 to $189, and those needed only 10 to 22 pounds of pressure over the course of repeated cuts. The Misen needed between 19 and 32 pounds. The Chicago Cutlery knife, which Burke bought for $12 at Walmart, needed almost the same pressure as the Misen�between 21 and 32 pounds.

We reached out to Misen, and the company says it was surprised to learn of our results from the hardness tests. Misen says it aims for a hardness of 58-59 for its knives, and that when the batches of steel were tested for hardness during production, each batch fell within this range. As for our findings about the edge angle, the company says its edges are hand-sharpened, so some variance is to be expected. The company says that over time it will tighten the tolerance ranges for hand-grinding, and that in time, consumers will see less variance from the 15-degree goal.

# ¿ Oct 31, 2016 14:48

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# ¿ May 12, 2024 20:23

Scott808: Jul 11, 2001

https://www.facebook.com/thefoodlabrecipes/posts/10154609809937910 posted:

A quick note regarding the review in Wired of the Misen knife now that it's out in public: It's troubling that Rockwell hardness numbers don't match what was promised, but rating a knife on Rockwell #s is like rating a PC on clock rate. It's far less important than design/balance/usability etc. For instance, my favorite knife is a vintage carbon steel Sabatier w/ a Rockwell hardness around 52 (that's very low by modern standards, most modern knives are at least 55 and some very hard ones are up in the 61-62 range), but I like it because it's really easy to resharpen, and perfectly balanced.

I haven't tried production model @misenkitchen knife yet, but if it's as well-balanced and comfortable in the hand and has the same shape as the beta, then the Rockwell #s are largely irrelevant to me.

As I noted in my initial review (http://www.seriouseats.com/2015/09/best-cheap-chefs-knives-misen-equipment-review.html):

"The main advantage of AUS-8, aside from its stainless qualities, is that it's extremely easy to sharpen and hone into a razor edge.

The downside is that, as a softer steel, it's going to wear out slightly faster than a knife made of a harder alloy. In other words, your knife will require care and attention�this is not a knife you want to throw in the dishwasher or into a drawer without a cover�and at the very least you'll want to hone it with each use and have it sharpened professionally as its sharpness wears off a couple times a year."

Home cooks have a hard enough time sharpening knives as-is. Using harder steel is not going to help that. This is a knife for home cooks, not professionals, as indicated by both my initial review and the price point.

Again, from my initial review:

"The Misen knife is not yet in full production so bear in mind: this was written with a prototype unit. But so long as they maintain the same quality, it's a no brainer for a first knife or an upgrade knife for anyone's kitchen."

I stand by that statement, even with the inconsistent rockwell #s, and of course, remember that this was a single knife that was tested. Who knows where consistency is on the others.

As for shape, as I noted, the knife is a hybrid design with a gently angle. It's not quite a santoku with its near-flat blade or a shallow French-style curve, not quite a German with its heavy curve. Somewhere in the middle, which I find useful and versatile. If your go-to knife is a Wusthof, it's gonna take some getting used to.

The author's recommendations of a Mac or a Tojiro-DP are great, if you like those styles (I find the angled bolster on the Misen to be more comfortable than the straight bolster on a Tojiro). I wouldn't recommend a Forschner Fibrox, which while cheap, are incredible imbalanced blades that may feel sharp, but will instill poor knife skills in you making it difficult to upgrade to a proper knife down the line. His recommendation of a Wusthof is also sound, though you have to really be used to using a thick, curved, heavy German knife. It's not exactly comparable to any of the others that were recommended, or the Misen for that matter.

I'm actually now really interested to get ALL of my knives tested for Rockwell hardness to see if there's any correlation at all between the ones I use most frequently and a higher rockwell rating. I suspect that there isn't.

quote:

Ladies and gentlemen, I am going to call it: This is the holy grail of inexpensive chef's knives. Incredible quality and design, high-end materials, perfect balance, and a razor-sharp edge.

Is Misen actually using AUS-8 as claimed (shipping it to China from Japan), or are they using a locally produced "close enough" equivalent? It seems more likely they'd be using a Chinese made steel.

# ¿ Nov 1, 2016 13:55

Scott808: Jul 11, 2001

Someone just did this Caltech space age alloy knife a couple years ago - https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/vmatter-cutlery-kitchen-knives/

# ¿ Nov 16, 2016 07:48

Scott808: Jul 11, 2001

Edmond Dantes posted:

Would anybody know where I can get the Tojiro DP Gyuto in New York City? I was planning on getting the 2 PC set from chefknivestogo but their shipping says 3 to 6 business days and I'm leaving on December 2nd, so it's a bit too close for my taste.

I checked Tojiro's page and they list a distributor/reseller in New York, korin.com, but I can't find Tojiro knives anywhere in their page.

/Edit: They're also available on Amazon via Cutlery and More, which is also listed on Tojiro's distributor page.
Does anyone have any experience with then?

I'm pretty sure Korin quit carrying Tojiro a while ago.

# ¿ Nov 25, 2016 12:57

Scott808: Jul 11, 2001

guppy posted:

Got a specific recommendation? Also, I'm wrong and my current one isn't Victorinox. It's this Oxo one and it isn't good enough.

I have and use a Victorinox and have no real complaints.

Reviews
ATK winner - Mercer Millenia
The Sweet Home winner - Victorinox, runner up Mercer Millenia, upgrade pick Tojiro F-687 (the Mac Superior clone), but the scalloped style serrations don't do hard crusty bread as well as regular serrations
Serious Eats winner(s) - Tojiro F-737, Dexter Russell

# ¿ Jan 18, 2017 09:49

Scott808: Jul 11, 2001

Senior Funkenstien posted:

Saw this on facebook: https://kamikoto.com/collections/store/products/kanpeki-knife-set?utm_source=facebook&utm_content=SHOPNOW_FOREWARD_STEPS6

This just reeks of bullshit in so many ways.

Overinflated price, but for a limited time you get an AMAZING discount.
Try to imply it's made in Japan by traditional craftsmen; it is not.
"Nakiri meat cleaver" A nakiri is not a meat cleaver.

# ¿ Mar 28, 2017 01:25

Scott808: Jul 11, 2001

Shooting Blanks posted:

I was thinking it was a pricing error...hadn't really looked into it much. Glad I didn't order then, based on what y'all said!

IMO if you're looking for a good knife stop shopping for "bargains" and instead shop for a quality product that meets your needs and budget. It's just going to lead to wasting money on poo poo that could have gone to something quality the first time. $220 can easily buy you a high quality gyuto.

# ¿ Mar 28, 2017 12:53

Scott808: Jul 11, 2001

Chef De Cuisinart posted:

Just check chefknivestogo's clearance section. Nothing they carry is bad, and you'll probably get a decent discount.

I don't know how you can flat out say nothing CKTG carries is bad. It depends on what you think is bad, but Mark seems to openly poo poo talk some of the stuff he's sold in the past. His own Richmond house brand knives made by Lamson were reported to have issues; to be fair I've never used or handled one myself, so I cannot personally say. His newer house line Yahiko doesn't sound so great either.

http://www.chefknivestogoforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=144

# ¿ Mar 29, 2017 01:35

Scott808: Jul 11, 2001

fart simpson posted:

I've bought two knives from CKTG and they were both good. What better places are there to get knives?

I've ordered some stuff from CKTG once years ago, and I've gotten what I ordered, so my one experience with them was positive. I have seen some stuff that I find mildly distasteful from them since then that makes me a bit hesitant to do business with them again if I have other options.

I've personally done business with these vendors and had a positive experience with all of them.
https://japanesechefsknife.com/
https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/
http://korin.com/
http://www.knivesandstones.com/

I have not personally done business with these, but as far as I know they all have good reputations.
http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/
http://aframestokyo.com/
http://bernalcutlery.com/
http://www.epicedge.com/
http://www.metalmaster-ww.com/
http://stores.ebay.com/BluewayJapan

MetalMaster (also on eBay) is known to be non-communicative and somewhat slow on the shipping, but the order always shows up. He was one of the big sources of cheap nashiji ginsanko Tanaka knives.
Bernal Cutlery sells the Ashi Hamono Ginga, which is very similar to the Japanese Knife Imports (JKI) Gesshin Ginga. The Ginga is made by Ashi Hamono, but the Gesshin version is slightly harder than the regular version, the spine and choil are more rounded, and Jon from JKI does a bit of work on it in house as well.

# ¿ Mar 29, 2017 09:35

Scott808: Jul 11, 2001

signalnoise posted:

Hey I just thought this thread might get a kick out of this already-successful kickstarter.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/228096009/doppio-double-sided-kitchen-knife/description

It looks like an upscale hori hori gardening tool.

Now my question is if I buy this Doppio double sided knife, is it good enough that I won't need the 60 Second Salad Maker? Or will the two of them together allow me to make the most amazing salad in just 15 seconds?

Kickstarter seemingly has a shitload of successfully funded lovely knife/knife related things.

# ¿ Apr 5, 2017 13:48

Scott808: Jul 11, 2001

rockcity posted:

Does anyone know any good knife stores in Tokyo or Osaka? I'm planning a trip to Japan in August and would love to come home with a decent chef knife.

Sakai, Osaka
Konosuke (幸之祐) Kaneshige Hamono (カネシゲ刃物)
Address: 大阪府堺市堺区甲斐町東4-3-26

Suisin (酔心) Knife System (ナイフシステム)
Address: 大阪府堺市堺区甲斐町西1-1-28

Tadatsuna (忠綱) Nagata Hamono (永田刃物)
Address: 大阪府堺市堺区甲斐町東1-1-4

Ashi Hamono (芦刃物)
Address: 大阪府堺市堺区並松町14

Tokyo
Masamoto Tsukiji http://www.tukijimasamoto.co.jp/
Japan, 〒104-0045 Tōkyō-to, Chūō-ku, Tsukiji, 4 Chome−9, 築地４丁目９－９

Sugimoto Hamono https://www.sugimoto-hamono.com/
4 Chome-10-2 Tsukiji, Chuo, Tokyo 104-0045, Japan

Aritsugu Tsukiji http://www.aritsugu.jp/
4 Chome-9-16 Tsukiji, Chūō-ku, Tōkyō-to 104-0045, Japan

Nenohi http://www.nenohi.co.jp/
4 Chome-10-5 Tsukiji, 中央区 Tokyo 104-0045, Japan

Nihonbashi Kiya http://www.kiya-hamono.co.jp/english/

Kappabashi District https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kappabashi-dori | http://www.kappabashi.or.jp/

Union Commerce http://www.unioncommerce.co.jp/
2 Chome-22-6 Nishiasakusa, Taitō-ku, Tōkyō-to 111-0035, Japan

Tsubaya http://tsubaya.co.jp/
3 Chome-7-3 Nishiasakusa, Taitō-ku, Tōkyō-to 111-0035, Japan

Kamata http://www.kap-kam.com/
2 Chome-12-6 Matsugaya, 台東区 Tokyo 111-0036, Japan

TDI Knife Shop
1 Chome-9-13 Matsugaya, Taitō-ku, Tōkyō-to 111-0036, Japan

# ¿ Apr 14, 2017 05:45

Scott808: Jul 11, 2001

There's a guy on a different forum who had a Kohetsu HAP40 who bought it because the CKTG forum said it was pretty much the best thing ever and he said it turned out to be the worst knife he ever bought, it cut like crap and had several issues and CKTG wasn't interested in any after sales support.

Never used it myself, so I have no opinion either way on the knife.

# ¿ Aug 8, 2017 06:43

Scott808: Jul 11, 2001

AVeryLargeRadish posted:

I'd take that with a grain of salt, there is a lot of history involving the CKTG forum, a certain other forum and another vendor which has lead to a lot of false stories, grudges and other nastiness. No idea if what you saw has anything to do with all that but it's worth knowing that there is a lot of false information floating around out there.

I'm aware of the history, but from a customer point of view that doesn't really matter so much to me. It was several years ago, but I've purchased some sharpening stuff from CKTG and my transaction went fine.

But this guy mentioned he was a member of the CKTG forums first which is how me ended up making the decision to buy the knife, and he found another forum afterwards as a result of the disappointment with the knife. I would say take almost everything with a grain of salt, most of us are just faceless strangers on the internet to each other, but just because it's not on the CKTG forums doesn't mean it's not valid. I've seen some other stories from guys that have bought some fairly high dollar stuff from CKTG that had problems too and I don't think *all* of it can be chalked up to old forums drama. That isn't to say that I haven't seen that happen (feels like it hasn't happened in a while, though); there's certainly been some anti CKTG stuff fueled by bad blood that still lingers from all those years ago. I can't say for sure, but this guys complaints about the Kohetsu don''t have that feeling to it.

For myself, I wouldn't flat out disregard CKTG as a vendor, but, and I've said this before in this thread, they've done some stuff that I find distasteful enough (unrelated to the old forums drama) to prefer doing business with other vendors if given a choice.

# ¿ Aug 8, 2017 14:58

Scott808: Jul 11, 2001

AVeryLargeRadish posted:

That's fine, it's just that some of that internet drama has extended beyond the internet to hurt other people and companies and a lot of it is straight lies, stuff like Konosuke being fake chinese knives because they are sold by CKTG. Neither side can really be trusted but I have had good experiences with CKTG and that is more important to me than stuff I can't confirm either way.

Got a link? I'd be interested in reading it. I'm pretty sure the worst thing I read someone say about the HD/HD2 was that it was over hyped and not worth the current asking price.

# ¿ Aug 8, 2017 15:45

Scott808: Jul 11, 2001

AVeryLargeRadish posted:

Nah, no links, this stuff is from like 5-6 years ago. I think the site owner erased all of it so all I saw was from screen captures. Basically the owner of another Japanese knife importer was an admin on the other forum and used that to spread a lot of nasty poo poo about CKTG and those old rumors still turn up from time to time, that included him and a lot of forum goers of the time defaming Kanehiro because they were sold on CKTG and were really hot at the time. There were also forum invasions of the CKTG forums, then retaliations. Eventually the other admins and Mark from CKTG talked to each other and the other owner lost admin privileges and people were told to stop spreading lies about Mark/CKTG/brands sold on CKTG. I know talking about the old feud was a bannable offense for a while on the CKTG forum. I asked Mark about the whole thing once on CKTG and he did not want to talk about it, I don't really blame him though, it would be like asking Lowtax about LF or Helldump, he'd probably tell you to gently caress off and ban you.

Maybe Mark has more bad blood with more people than I'm aware of, because the details of that story don't quite match the one I was thinking of. Yeesh.

TheQuietWilds posted:

So after going back and forth between crazy expensive knives I decided to save my money, go with a set of three Tojiro DP (240 Gyuto, 80 paring, Nakiri) and the Epicurious/SE recommended Tojiro $25 bread knife and put the extra cash into other kitchen equipment. I'm not familiar enough with high quality Japanese knives and don't have good enough knife skills to warrant a $200+ gyuto when for $180 I got all four of the knives I need to replace my Victorinox/Cutco mashup collection. Maybe in the future I'll round it out with some HRC62+ handmade poo poo, but for now the extra money I had budgeted for knives went into a Le Creuset 3.75qt Brasier that I found half off at an outlet, plus a nice set of Schott Zweisel wine glasses.

IME any of the Tojiro DP gyutos longer than the 210 are quite lovely performers in stock form. Maybe it's just me, maybe mine just happened to be poor examples of the DP line, but whatever it was, I wouldn't be able to live with the performance of the 240 or 270 DP as they come from the factory.

# ¿ Aug 9, 2017 06:00

Scott808: Jul 11, 2001

mindphlux posted:

this is my experience and opinion with all chefknifetogo poo poo

I will never buy another thing from them, and pity anyone who does.

just get a knife and stop "researching". use it. learn how to sharpen it. if you don't like it, get another. it's a tool, not a sperglord implement.

To be fair to CKTG, I thought you didn't like JCK/Koki (the chipped edge on a tortilla chip incident), or is this a different thing?

And in fairness to JCK/Koki, my own experiences with him have been pretty good. There's a guy who says he asks Koki to measure all kinds of poo poo for him on possible purchases and Koki does so; that seems like fairly above normal service. While I haven't asked Koki to measure things for me, I did ask that he check something out before he shipped a knife I bought from him. He sent me a picture of the knife so I could decide for myself.

# ¿ Aug 9, 2017 09:03

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# ¿ May 12, 2024 20:23

Scott808: Jul 11, 2001

Arrgytehpirate posted:

I dropped my knife and it chipped on the edge of a pot I had in my sink. I'm going to call Shun tomorrow and see if it's covered under warranty but I doubt it. If they'll do it for a fee I'll go with them since, obviously, they'll do the best with their knife.

There's no local place I can take it but I found this place online and I'm going to call and see if they'll let me mail it in. Anyone have experience with them?

http://www.vulcanknife.com/

I guess I'm going to have to buy a cheap chef's knife from Walmart for the week or two I don't have a knife.

Where are you located?

Japanese Knife Imports - California - https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/pages/services#knife-sharpening-services

Korin - New York - http://www.korin.com/Services/Sharpening-Repair

Japanese Knife Sharpening - Pennsylvania - http://www.japaneseknifesharpening.com/index.html

Seattle Knife Sharpening - https://www.seattleknifesharpening.com/

# ¿ Jan 9, 2018 06:39

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