The Kitchen Knife Thread

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Goons with Spoons > The Kitchen Knife Thread

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

Chef De Cuisinart posted:

Sup knife thread. Anyone know how well Ho wood stains? I've got my Tojiro ITK Kiritsuke looking nice with a great blue/purple patina from lots of butchering, but the handle is really bringing it down. I've considered getting a new handle, but I've never re-handled a knife before.

It'll take a stain in the sense you can make it darker, but there generally isn't much in terms of grain pattern to bring out or anything like that.

# ¿ Oct 10, 2013 05:22

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# ¿ May 4, 2024 06:03

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

TATPants posted:

I've read a few posts that suggest that VG-10 is notoriously difficult to sharpen. Why is this alloy more difficult to sharpen compared to other steels? Also, wouldn't that be an advantage, because the steel is harder? I'm obviously missing something here...

As a general rule VG-10 isn't particularly difficult to sharpen. That being said, difficulty in sharpening, like sharpness itself, is a property of individual knives and not, as is sometimes implied in discussions of such things, a property of brands of knives or varieties of steel---blade geometry, bevel, heat treatment, and so on all contribute substantially to the overall equation.

I'm not exactly in love with VG-10 as a kitchen cutlery steel---I tend to prefer very high hardness edges that can take a very aggressive grind or comparatively soft carbon steels that can be worked readily, depending on application---but I have a number of pocket knives in VG-10 that take and hold an edge perfectly well.

# ¿ Oct 10, 2013 10:57

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

hoshkwon posted:

Sometimes it gets to the point where people will say something like "buying a more expensive knife is a waste of money", "this beats most >$100 knives out there".

That's just not true.

I dunno. I mean yeah, rage against the hivemind and all that and that's cool. But I think for most people asking for knife recommendations? Yeah, they absofuckinglutely are better off with one of those Victorinox knives than going off and spending more than US$100. And if you knew better and would get more out of a better knife, at that point nobody's telling you to buy a Victorinox because you're not asking for newbie knife-buying advice.

And anyway everybody knows the US$30 kitchen cutlery that's better than most chef's knives in the US$100 range is the CCK #1 small slicer. :getin:

Lichtenstein posted:

All you guys talkin' poo poo about Victorinox need to learn about this little fella (5.0831):

Eh. They're okay, but you use one of those Victorinox paring knives and you think to yourself, yeah, that's a pretty good cheap knife. But it's definitely a cheap knife.

Lemme put it this way: I've had a couple of those Victorinox paring knives since the '80s, and a couple years ago when I picked up a Dojo paring knife I suddenly realised I'd hated every other paring knife I'd ever used and hadn't known it. By comparison I'd actually prefer to use a 8" Victorinox chef's knife over a Henckels Five Star, say.

# ¿ Dec 6, 2013 02:27

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

Rurutia posted:

What length of chef's knife should I get if I'm buying my first Tojiro DP? Is it just a matter of preference?

Yeah, basically. You're pretty much always best off using the largest knife you're comfortable with.

# ¿ Dec 6, 2013 03:11

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

SopWATh posted:

Is that personal preference or something specific about the knives? Are you talking about the $160 "Forged" knife or the $30 fibrox things?

Of course it's personal preference---it's not like any knife preferences are appeals to some sort of objective standard. But yeah, I prefer the cheapass Fibrox chef's knife to the Henckels. All of Henckels knives are bricks---they're heavy for their blade length. They're also beefier around the spine for my tastes, and could use more rounding at the factory (I don't want the corners of the spine to dig into my fingers when I roll it while holding it in a pinch).

In terms of edge retention and other basic performance standards I don't see any appreciable difference between the two---they're both middle-of-the road steels suitable for general beater knife work, but aren't hard enough to tolerate extremely acute grinds.

I don't think I `get' the blade profile of most of the Henckels chef's knives either---they've got less belly than most Western-patterned knives (like the Victorinox), but more than the typical gyuto or Chinese cleaver. More belly makes for better rock cutting and less makes for better push cutting, but in the middle? I don't get it.

# ¿ Dec 7, 2013 02:16

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

mindphlux posted:

I like the heft of german knives, but I also like the nimbleness of japanese santokus.

Why specifically a santoku? Never really `got' them, and thought that mostly they were a forgotten fad from about 2004, like the Numa Numa guy or whatever.

# ¿ Dec 11, 2013 05:21

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

Bronze posted:

is it normal for the tojiro dp gyuto to have a ~1mm gap between the wooden handle and bolster? the one i just got on amazon had a gap like this on both sides and some black epoxy(?) jaggedly filling the gap.

Nope. I've never had any complaints about the fit and finish on any Tojiro I've owned, but I understand that they've had problems with quality control on some of their product lines.

# ¿ Apr 5, 2014 00:31

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

.Z. posted:

Any suggestions of a good bang for the buck yanagiba? Tojiro brand?

Tojiros are really good bang for the buck, yeah. They used to be even better before the prices started to creep up and, apparently, they started having quality control problems. If it was me I'd probably spend the extra for a Moritaka, which is going to be substantially more than a Tojiro but is a hell of a deal for a handmade kitchen knife.

That said, in actual practice I virtually never use a yanagi, because cleaver cleaver cleaver cleaver cleaver cleaver cleaver cleaver cleaver cleaver cleaver cleaver cleaver cleaver cleaver cleaver cleaver cleaver cleaver cleaver cleaver cleaver cleaver cleaver cleaver cleaver cleaver cleaver cleaver cleaver cleaver cleaver cleaver cleaver cleaver cleaver cleaver cleaver cleaver cleaver cleaver cleaver cleaver cleaver cleaver.

# ¿ Apr 17, 2014 00:34

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

Jarmak posted:

Is there an advantage to carbon steel over stainless besides hardness?

This is actually a complex question, as steel composition is just one part of the overall equation. Two edges made of the same steel but given different heat treatments might perform more differently than two edges made from similar but different steels. Anyway.

When you're looking at very high hardness steels, most of the stainless variants will be ones with a lot of carbides. This, as a general matter, will improve wear resistance but produce a less smooth edge surface than a comparable carbon steel.

Carbon steels also generally have better toughness than stainless steels of the same hardness. But again, asterisk asterisk blah blah blah holy war on bladeforums commences.

In purely practical terms you're better off worrying about how comfortable a kitchen knife is in your hand than any bullshit involving the theoretical performance of the steel. Because unless you're the loving samurai chef or some poo poo you're never going to find yourself in any situation where the corner case special circumstances argument for one blade steel over another is more important than how comfortable you are using it. Which you'll be noticing all the loving time.

Jarmak posted:

Also in regards to the CCK small cleaver, is it objectively really good or just really good for $60?

I don't even know what an objectively good knife is.

That said, the CCK #1 small slicer is a hell of a good Chinese cleaver. If you're in the market for a Chinese cleaver, that's what I'd get. The US$60 price tells me you're probably looking at chefknivestogo (who apparently just raised their prices, since they were, what US$35 or US$45 for a long time). They've always sold the #3 small slicer, which is a little smaller than the #1. I'd always go with the bigger one, but whatevs.

As far as a Chinese cleaver versus a nakiri goes, you get a lot more depth with the cleaver, and most nakiris I've seen are shortish too---like 180mm or less. I'll pretty much always prefer a general-purpose kitchen knife that's 8"-10" over one that's only 6"-7", but that's personal preference. I generally prefer the deeper blade, for better control as well as being a better transport for veg or whatever from cutting board to pan.

But again, it's a personal preference thing. If you're rockin a nakiri and aren't comfortable with a bigger cleaver, gently caress the philosophy and go with what works for you.

# ¿ May 5, 2014 11:28

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

Jarmak posted:

Fair enough, I was just trying to figure out if the main reason it gets rave reviews is because of its value and not necessarily because of its quality, if that makes sense.

The CCK small slicers aren't pretty, gussied-up knives like you normally expect at the US$100+ price level. So if elaborate fit and finish are a big thing for you, that's something to consider.

Anyone know where the price increase on the CCKs from chefknivestogo came from? I find it kinda difficult to imagine that CCK themselves have doubled the price of their cleavers over the past few years since I bought my first one.

Jarmak posted:

edit: after doing a lot of nakiri research this morning currently I'm drooling over the stainless clad Takeda, for reference

I own a Takeda cleaver and I use my CCK #1 small slicer way the gently caress more.

Jarmak posted:

I'm so torn between knowing the Moritaka is probably a higher quality knife with the Shun being overpriced and the fact that 130mm seems to long for a pairing knife and the Shun has more of a European pairing knife shape (also its stainless which seems like it would be especially useful for a pairing knife which tends to see more abuse).

If I had to buy a pairing knife without a doubt I'd go with the Dojo. It's the paring knife that make me recognise that I'd hated every other paring knife I'd ever used without even realising it.

SubG fucked around with this message at 21:16 on May 5, 2014

# ¿ May 5, 2014 21:14

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

.Z. posted:

What do you like about the Dojo? I wasn't a fan of the blade design, much happier with how the Tojiro DP pairing knife's design.

It turns out one of the things I want most out of a paring knife is the right angle between the working edge and the spine edge of the handle. It's more complicated to describe than it should be, but when I'm paring my hand is more or less making the hitchhiking sign, with the spine edge of the handle along the inside of the knuckles and the cutting edge facing the thumb. Follow? One of the things I really like about the geometry of the Dojo is that this works out naturally to put the cutting edge just acute of being parallel to the line of my thumb. A knife where the back of the handle and the cutting edge are more or less parallel makes a much steeper angle, which usually means I end up tilting the handle in my hand so it's not against the knuckles, which gives me less control. More strongly angled blades (like most of the ones that look like wee gyutos) end up putting the heel end of the edge closer to the thumb than the rest.

Like I said, it's a pain in the rear end to describe, but with the Dojo the angle just works out the way I want it to when I'm holding the knife the way I want to hold it.

I also much prefer the nearly triangular tip geometry over the spear point of most Western-style paring knives (e.g. the Victorinox) or the gyuto-ish modified sheepsfoot of most Japanese paring knives. Mostly because I'm pretty much never slicing/cutting with a paring knife like I am with a chef's knife, but I am frequently puncturing, poking, digging out seeds or pits or whatever.

Basically most paring knives feel like they're just scaled down versions of larger knives, which is absolutely not what I want in a paring knife, because I just don't use paring knife for the same things as a bigger blade.

The Dojo also has admirable fit and finish and I like the steel. But really it's just really well suited to the kind of tasks I want to do with a paring knife and how I do them.

# ¿ May 5, 2014 22:16

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

Stalizard posted:

But that doesn't mean you shouldn't get one and use it forever and love it, because they're the greatest.

The thing I hate about ye olde schoole French knife designs is gently caress a finger guard bolster.

# ¿ May 8, 2014 00:05

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

Stalizard posted:

I'm honestly curious as to why you don't like it?

It's just that you're usually right about things, and I went from a Henckels without any bolster to this one and I never really noticed that much of difference between bolster and not-bolster.

It's not bolsters per se but specifically finger guard bolsters. They make it a pain in the rear end to sharpen the knife and interfere with some kinds of cutting/slicing. Both of these things effectively make the knife behave like it's about a cm shorter than it actually is. And they can just be uncomfortable if you've got the blade in a pinch.

They don't actually buy you anything safetywise unless you're holding your knife like Norman Bates or maybe if it's a really loving narrow blade (like a fillet knife).

They also tend to show up on knifes that are designed to be `hefty' or whatever, which is something I used to favour but now find very undesirable in a kitchen knife, but that's personal preference.

So they don't actually contribute anything, and there are several ways in which they can be a problem.

Edit: yeah, that Henckles has a bolster, just not one of the finger guard kinds. You can still see that it's going to be a loving brick because of the extra weight, but at least it isn't going to interfere with the operation of the knife.

SubG fucked around with this message at 00:33 on May 8, 2014

# ¿ May 8, 2014 00:31

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

martinlutherbling posted:

TLDR: Would you rather have a 5-6" petty/utility knife or a nice pair of shears?

That's awful big for a petty knife. If I'm reaching for a smaller blade it's because I'm doing something where a bigger one just won't loving fit, like if I'm doing whatever the gently caress you call it when you scrape out the inside of a pepper without cutting it open, in which case a 6" blade is probably too big and I'd be using a wee paring knife anyway.

Kitchen shears are must-have poo poo, but a better-than-they-need-to-be pair should still only run you like US$20.

# ¿ Jun 29, 2014 23:38

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

That's not the stamping I'm familiar with, but I'm going to need a bigger pic to tell for sure.

Edit: Here's a product image lifted off an online store. It's the stamping I've seen before. It isn't unusual for cutlery companies to change markings semi-regularly though, but I don't know the history for Dubost.

SubG fucked around with this message at 04:29 on Jul 3, 2014

# ¿ Jul 3, 2014 04:22

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

d3rt posted:

jean dubost has a real website and is really french. legit as in good? or legit as in french made?

They're not crap (or at least the Dubost knives I've handled aren't) but they're not a high-end manufacturer of Laguiole knives (like, say, Chazeau), if that's what you're asking.

# ¿ Jul 3, 2014 04:46

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

Armchair Calvinist posted:

What are my options for a "buy it for life and be happy with it" general chef's knife for my kitchen? I only eat at home and make every meal from scratch so this will be a much appreciated workhorse knife. I currently own a Miyabi Fusion 600D and J.A. Henckels "International" line knife that I found in my drawer a while back. They seem okay but my birthday is coming up and I want something that is great for all sorts of types of cutting and cooking.

My friend in the industry recommended this: http://www.amazon.com/Mercer-Cutlery-Renaissance-Chefs-Knife/dp/B002R1CGVQ/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1405124838&sr=8-7&keywords=mercer+10+inch Any thoughts?

Buying a kitchen knife is kinda like dating in college: you handle as many options as you can and go with the one you like the feel of the best.

Seriously, if you're thinking of plonking down more than a couple bucks on a beater knife, go to your nearest Bed Bath and Bullshit or whatever and handle as many knives as you can then go with whatever you like the best. No major manufacturer is going to be producing a knife with mysterious hidden defects that are only going to show up a couple years down the road. About the only up front ideological decision you really need to be making is general type of steel---mostly whether your going to go with stainless or a high carbon steel, poo poo like that. Otherwise fit and finish on the individual knife and how well you like the feel are way the gently caress more important in determining how happy you're going to be with it long term than any other stats-driven horseshit that gets talked about on internet forums.

# ¿ Jul 13, 2014 01:04

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

Armchair Calvinist posted:

But being able to feel it bite into my cutting board after effortlessly cutting tuna belly from being so loving sharp sent literal chills down my spine. I assume with this style of cooking he used different types of grinds for proteins and vegetables, though, right?

Probably. Most high-end Japanese-Japanese knives (sashimi knives, those loving giant maguro bochos, and like that, not Japanese knives like a random gyuto, if that distinction makes sense) tend to be either chisel ground (bevel on only one side of the blade) or have asymmetric bevels. If that's what you mean.

That being said, that isn't only the province of ultra high end everyday professional use gear, so if that's what you want you can definitely find decent working knives built that way in the US$100-300 range (so basically where you find most high-end consumer grade kitchen knives).

As far as the fit and finish goes, that's something that tends to vary more by manufacturer than by price. The basic octagonal bone/wood handle is probably the most common handle choice in everything above the food service grade stuff, so if that's what you're looking for that's not hard to find at all at a reasonable price point.

# ¿ Jul 13, 2014 02:26

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

Armchair Calvinist posted:

In your opinion(s), if I have the Henckels International 8" and the Miyabi Fusion 600D, would it be best to grind one finer for veggies and have the other for meat duty?

Unless you're driven to do so by some religious dietary laws I wouldn't. For the overwhelming majority of kitchen tasks you really aren't going to give a poo poo about the specific bevel of the edge, but rather how well maintained the edge is at the given bevel at that moment. So if you have one knife that has a 12 degree (each side) bevel that's been used a lot and another that has a 20 degree (each side) bevel that's just been stropped, the 20 degree edge is going to outperform the 12 degree edge in just about anything you're going to want to do in the kitchen.

And even ignoring that, the theoretical optimal bevel is way more a factor of the knife steel than it is of the task, certainly in the home kitchen. If you've got a bunch of German kitchen cutlery, chances are you're going to be a lot happier with a somewhat less acute bevel than you'd want on the harder steels generally used in Japanese knives.

So I'd say that you're better off just worrying about keeping your knifes sharp than fretting about wacky custom bevels for every task. Certainly if you're just getting started. When you want to start worrying about having a slightly different set up knife for every task is when you know enough about that poo poo that you won't have to ask about it on the internet. Or more likely once you know enough about it to make those decisions yourself you'll know better than to fret about it (or you won't and will want to do it just to do it). I use the same goddamn Chinese cleaver ground the same goddamn way to do about 90% of my kitchen cutting and it isn't from lack of other options.

Armchair Calvinist posted:

I've really only ever needed to use my chefs knives and the Wusthof carving knife for sushi cuts though. I feel like the others just sit there.

That's the general experience, and the reason why knife sets are pretty much never a good idea.

# ¿ Jul 13, 2014 20:50

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

Armchair Calvinist posted:

Chinese cleavers sound intriguing though. Do you think they're worth it for doing a lot of work? I make every meal from scratch so I do a LOT of prep work throughout the day. Any recommendations on a good brand?

About the only thing I don't prefer a Chinese cleaver for is poo poo like filleting a fish or carving a bird, which I learned the traditional ways and have practiced too much for anything else to be as second nature. For going through a pile of veg I can't think of anything else I'd prefer using.

As far as brands go, assuming high carbon steels aren't a problem for you then the CCK small slicer is the canonical entry point into the Chinese cleaver world. CCK doesn't make fancy stuff, so if the fit and finish are a big deal for you you probably want to look elsewhere. But personally I use the CCK #1 small slicer I bought from a place in the local Chinatown for US$30 way the gently caress more than I use the theoretically much nicer Takeda cleaver I paid literally ten times as much for.

The place on the English-speaking internet where you can order a CCK small slicer is chefknivestogo. They've always carried the #3 (which is 210mm) instead of the #1 (240mm) and they're now asking US$60 for one. So I'm reticent to recommend them now (as opposed to finding a store near you that carries them). But if you have US$60 to throw at something you just want to try out, it's still a lot of kitchen knife for the price.

# ¿ Jul 13, 2014 22:00

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

Armchair Calvinist posted:

update: King 1200 grit stone came in and I managed to get the knives sharper than before! I cut through paper effortlessly, just like when I first got them back from being professional sharpened.

First: great, cool, glad you're having fun, all that. But cutting paper is a pretty lousy way to measure sharpness. Like if a knife has trouble cutting paper it's really loving dull, so it just isn't a very meaningful test. Even if you start doing poo poo like shaving really fine slivers off an edge it's more about the cutting action employed than the quality of the edge.

Serious hardcore sharpness testing is done using a bunch of hydraulic horseshit that is way beyond the scope of the home hobbyist. But if you're interested in doing semi-rigorous testing you can just get like a bunch of tomatoes or something and cut them on a scale: the less force you have to apply to accomplish a given cut, the sharper the edge.

# ¿ Jul 16, 2014 02:07

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

Cutting hair to test a blade you're going to use to cut hair makes a lot more sense than cutting hair to test a blade that's going to be used to chop veg. If you're going to do any sort of binary `will it cut this' testing, the thing it makes the most sense to test with is the thing that you actually want to be able to cut.

Using a scale (or a CATRA tester) has the advantage of offering a quantitative measure for comparing different degrees of sharpness. This may or may not be useful in a given application---presumably you're always going to be predominately concerned with the question `will this edge cut what I want to cut with it?' which is something that can most meaningfully be answered by direct experimental investigation.

# ¿ Jul 16, 2014 03:02

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

Hed posted:

I was going to pull the trigger on a CKTG CCK but that thing is $60 now. Is this thing on Amazon that looks like it the same thing? http://www.amazon.com/Wok-Shop-Vegetable-Cleaver/dp/B00018U1J6/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1406246367&sr=8-3&keywords=cck+cleaver

I believe the vegetable cleavers sold by Wok Shop are from Ho Ching Kee Lee, not CCK (irritatingly they're not showing the obverse side, which has the manufacturer's stamp on it). They're not unusable or anything, but their US$10 price point is about right.

# ¿ Jul 25, 2014 11:32

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

Raikiri posted:

I've been using my Kanetsune santoku for about 3 years now and I'm very happy with it, but would like a decent paring or petty knife to go with it for around $50-60 (�30-40).

Any suggestions?

Dojo.

# ¿ Aug 15, 2014 23:17

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

Chef De Cuisinart posted:

Some people do, I don't. Just keep it dry, cut plenty of onions, and develop a patina.

Embrace the patina

# ¿ Aug 27, 2014 00:34

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

Present posted:

2. Why is that Chinese cleaver getting so much love compared to the nakiri? Aren't they basically the same knife? It looks so big and unwieldy. If you have a Chinese cleaver why do you like it so much specifically?

Nakiris are usually thinner, edge to spine, than Chinese cleavers. That extra real estate is good for positioning the blade with your knuckles (you can make bigger gestures and cut thicker stuff without losing contact). And the side of a cleaver is approximately the most convenient way to transport a bunch of poo poo you just chopped to the pan.

And a good cleaver is big but not unwieldy. A bone chopper is going to have a beefy blade, but a Chinese cleaver designed for veg prep is thinner than most Western-pattern kitchen knives; a CCK #1 small slicer weighs less than an 8" Henckels Five Star chef's knife.

Present posted:

3. Also I'm worried about carbon knives cuz they look so gross with that patina/rust. Someone tell me there are no health risks for using that steel to cut food with.

Assuming you subscribe to the germ theory of disease, there's no health risk associated with using carbon steel in food prep, even discoloured carbon steel.

# ¿ Oct 2, 2014 22:51

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

Greatest Living Man posted:

Higher % carbon:
More brittle -> less malleable.

Yes, but most stainless steels and `super steels' have a higher carbon content than any cutlery you'll see called `carbon steel'. You call a carbon steel a carbon steel not because it has more carbon than all other steels, but because it doesn't have chromium, molybdenum, some kind of carbides, or whatever the gently caress. All else being equal a kitchen knife you see labelled `carbon steel' will be more malleable and less brittle than a kitchen knife labelled `stainless steel'.

It's actually a lot more complicated than that, because other factors---edge geometry, heat treatment, and so on---will often contribute more to the real-world behaviour of a piece of cutlery than the theoretical specs on the steel in it.

Chef De Cuisinart posted:

Carbon knives aren't tougher, they're generally more fragile. They hold a wicked edge, and are my go to protein knives. Not vulnerable to moisture or acid at all really, just wipe your knife often enough, and let that patina develop.

It is probably worth noting that `toughness' has a technical usage in materials science meaning, roughly, the opposite of brittleness (that is, the resistance of the material to fracturing). All else being equal, a soft carbon steel will tend to be tougher (in this usage) than a harder stainless steel. But, again, disclaimer disclaimer disclaimer, all else is usually not equal and what's been done with the steel must be considered before you can make assumptions about one blade's behaviour versus another blade.

# ¿ Oct 24, 2014 00:15

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

Chef De Cuisinart posted:

Yeah, but we're talking kitchen knives here. In the current market, a carbon steel knife is usually japanese and HRC 62+. They're delicate, absolutely will chip if not cared for properly. In kitchen knives I don't think you're going to find many stainless knives that are harder than carbon counterparts.

Actually only a couple of the Shirogami and Aogami steels are actually carbon steels, despite often being called `carbon steel'. But whatever. The other carbon steels that you're likely to encounter in kitchen cutlery are what you find in e.g. CCK cleavers. Which are at completely at the other end of the scale in terms of hardness and general behaviour. A number of the traditional Western-style kitchen knife makers produce softer carbon steel chef's knives as well---e.g. Messermeister (although like Aogami their non-stainless steels are often called carbon steels even when they really aren't).

And kitchen knives with stainless blades up in the 60-62 HRC range aren't at all unusual these days. Tojiro treats VG-10 to 62 HRC, for example, and they're not exactly esoteric.

# ¿ Oct 24, 2014 00:51

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

Chef De Cuisinart posted:

Tojiro DP series are actually 59-60. Their ITK series are 62-63, and I believe they're White #2.

The Tojiro Flash line is VG-10 (well, it's a clad blade but the cutting edge is VG-10) which they claim is hardened to 62HRC (random web search result review which mentions this).

And this kind of makes the point. The blade steel is theoretically the same in the DP and the Flash knives, but the properties are different because of the different treatment.

# ¿ Oct 24, 2014 01:27

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

TheJeffers posted:

Got my Tojiro 240mm gyuto in today, and it's a huge step up over the Victorinox it's replacing. The choil definitely needs to be smoothed out with some sandpaper, but I'll live for now. The stock edge is quite good, but I definitely want to see what this blade can do after some time on some water stones.

One weird thing about mine is that the logotype and label on the handle don't match any of the stock photos I've seen of the DP series online. I'm sure it's just a newer/older stock thing, or maybe a reseller thing (I got mine from Amazon), but it did stand out.

All of my Tojiro DPs have slightly different markings. The kanji's the same on all of them, but the styling on the DP is different, and none of them have the `Tojiro Made in Japan' bit:

# ¿ Dec 30, 2014 03:53

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

GrAviTy84 posted:

also: anyone ever try the wokshop cleavers? http://wokshop.stores.yahoo.net/vegcleav.html

theyre way cheaper than CCKs, but CCKs are now 60bux and honestly that's ridiculous.

The bigger one is my CCK #1 small slicer and the smaller one is what the wok shop was selling...I dunno, a year or two ago (they used to sell Ho Ching Kee Lee cleavers but that's not a HCKL):

You can tell which one sees more use. The CCK is a #1 slicer, so it's a little bigger than the one you'd get from chefknivestogo (unless they've changed things, they sell the #3, which is smaller). But the wokshop cleaver is around 21cm. Not tiny, but noticeably smaller. The build quality is okay. Handle construction is essentially identical to the CCK (tang through then hammered over). The blade is slightly thicker and there's more belly to the blade, neither of which I consider an improvement.

If you want a punchline, it's definitely no replacement for a CCK, but it isn't the worst US$10 I've spent on cutlery.

# ¿ Dec 31, 2014 02:28

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

GrAviTy84 posted:

they also have other cleavers, too

http://wokshop.stores.yahoo.net/carsteelclea.html

Yeah, they've always carried a number of different cleavers, but they always seem to have one on offer that looks just like a CCK small slicer. No idea about any of the other ones.

# ¿ Dec 31, 2014 04:51

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

AVeryLargeRadish posted:

For soft steels like those a 18-20 degree angle is most effective, closer to 18 for higher sharpness and closer to 20 for longer edge retention. For hard steel like Japanese knives around 12-16 degrees.

Eh. Steel is part of the equation, but things like the blade geometry matter. As does what you're actually planning on using the knife for, and what your maintenance routine looks like.

I mean I really don't care about online knife arguments in general, and really don't care about online knife sharpening arguments. But I kinda feel like there are a lot of people going out there and buying knives with high-end Japanese steels and then are sharpening them down to single-digit bevels just because they feel like they have to because otherwise they're doing it wrong or they're going to offend the Hanzo spirits or whatever the gently caress. And then a week later they're posting that they've chipped the blade. When they'd probably be way better off with a less acute angle and better edge retention because about 90% of what they're doing is general veg prep or whatever and you don't get much out of having a really acute primary for poo poo like that.

# ¿ Jan 8, 2015 02:22

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

mindphlux posted:

I've said this a million times before, but I prefer my $9 ikea wooden cutting boards to my $100 expensive rear end "nice" end grain cutting boards. spending money isn't always the way to go, use what makes you happy and works well for you.

And I prefer having a stack of cheap-rear end poly boards from a restaurant supply store because gently caress using a cutting board I can't just throw in the dishwasher.

# ¿ Jan 13, 2015 00:42

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

Chef De Cuisinart posted:

Tojiro DP. It is the best knife you can get sub $200. Once you want something in the higher dollar ranges, I'd recommend Moritaka.

Also, holy loving poo poo, the CCK large cleaver is $100 now? I got mine about 3 years ago for only $40. Anyone want to buy my CCK off me for $75? >_>

I like how chefknivestogo has managed to add their own layer of confusing cleaver nomenclature on top of CCK's already confusing cleaver nomenclature. What ck2g calls a large CCK isn't even the largest cleaver of that model that CCK makes---for some reason ck2g seems to prefer carrying the #3 version of each CCK cleaver, which is usually the smallest version CCK makes. At least they include the CCK model number in the product details so you can look poo poo up.

# ¿ Feb 10, 2015 00:27

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

fuckwolf posted:

1. When I ordered it on CKTG, it automatically added the saya to my cart. Do you find that these are worthwhile? I don't travel with my knives, and I'm the only one that goes near them. Is there something about the wood that prevents rusting by absorbing moisture? Seemed kind of over priced at $30, but I'd like to hear other peoples opinions.

Eh. If you want a big fancy way to store your big fancy knife a saya is fine. Me, I just use cheap plastic edge guards on everything from my cheapass noname poo poo to my crazy expensive handmade poo poo. The plastic guards are easy to clean up and I kinda feel like I'm less likely to gently caress myself up accidentally if I'm using the same muscle memory to handle getting and storing all my knives. But I mean that's all rounding error personal preference poo poo. Just use whatever works for you.

fuckwolf posted:

2. I've read widely varying opinions on teak cutting boards. Cook's Illustrated claims that they are The poo poo, while others have said that they're too rough on blades. Is a teak cutting board, such as the ProTeak board, going to be a bad choice for high hardness blades such as the Kohetsu Aogami? Have you noticed a significant difference on your knives on teak vs. other
materials? Are the Boos maple boards or a Sanituff boards a better choice? Really nice boards like Boardsmith are way out of my budget, but I'd welcome any recommendations under $100-ish.

Cutting boards are definitely one of those religious subjects. If you don't actually have any personal preference, I'd just go and get a couple NSF-rated poly boards from your local restaurant supply. If it works out, fine, use them. If it doesn't, chuck 'em and you're out a lot less than a nice wood board. Or go get a cheap wood board from IKEA and a cheap poly board and see which one you prefer. Or just go to your local Bed Bath and Bullshit and get whatever strikes your fancy. Seriously, if you're not emotionally invested in the subject cherish that fact and just grab something and don't worry about it. As long as it's not glass or some poo poo you'll be fine and you'll be saving yourself a whole lot of unnecessary gear-related sperging.

# ¿ Jun 11, 2015 00:45

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

Steve Yun posted:

Can anyone recommend a good chinese chef knife that's not the CKTG CCK? $70 is ridiculous.

It's kinda crazy that they've gone up in price as much as they have, but there aren't a lot of competing options if you're specifically looking for something cheaper. The low-end Tojiro Chinese cleaver is a hundred bucks more. The Moritaka's over two hundred more. About the cheapest `name brand' Chinese cleaver you're going to find outside the CCK is the JCK house brand cleaver, which is still more expensive than the CCK and a couple inches smaller. Same with the Misono #6, which is another `entry level' Chinese cleaver, but'll still run you around US$125 and is under 200mm.

You can always just grab a random cleaver from a shop in your local Chinatown, but it'll be a total crapshoot on quality and if you have a local Chinatown and you're in it you're better off just looking for a CCK anyway.

# ¿ Jun 12, 2015 09:08

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

Flash Gordon Ramsay posted:

And for the record, Amazon does not sell CCK slicers.

Let me tell you about my 10" CCK.

# ¿ Jun 12, 2015 17:00

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

Karia posted:

I'm looking for a petty knife. I've heard the Dojo recommended here, but it seems a little small. Moritaka seems to be well respected, they've got a 165mm that looks good to me. Is there anything in between that price range I should be looking at, or anything I should beware with those?

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/dojopetty135mm.html
http://www.chefknivestogo.com/mosu16pe.html

The Dojo recommendations were probably for the paring, not the petty knife. It rocks.

Why do you want a petty knife?

# ¿ Jun 22, 2015 02:56

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# ¿ May 4, 2024 06:03

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

Armchair Calvinist posted:

How do I know when my knives are hilariously sharp? Any good tests?

Good? Just use them. Do they seem sharp enough? Then they're sharp enough.

If you want something more quantitative get a scale with memory (you want to record the maximum), put a tomato or whatever the gently caress on it and cut. This is pretty much the ghetto version of how an industrial/laboratory sharpness tester works.

# ¿ Jul 3, 2015 09:32

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Goons with Spoons > The Kitchen Knife Thread

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