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 “Madoka calls for analysis, and I answer. No greater good. No just cause. All for Madoka.” Jagchosis has convinced me to return. He also helped to edit my posts and make them more readable, so my analysis should hopefully be more palatable now. I suppose we’ll see how this goes. Now, on to the Concept Movie. Introduction and General Thoughts The Concept Movie for the next Madoka project is quite an intriguing piece, and there is much to look into, analyze, and discuss about it. As such, I have prepared a multi-part series of analyses on the subject, and I'll be posting one analysis a week until I’ve exhausted my material. As a general note, I have attempted to keep “my opinion” seperate within these analyses, relying only on objective analysis and resultant interpretation. Before getting into my first analysis however, I would like to give just a general overview of how I felt about the Concept Movie. First, I was very pleased to see the Concept Movie both continue and build on themes from Rebellion. The opening with Madoka and Homura and their dialogue was excellent, and seems to be continuing the usual trend of superb narrative construction and philosophical musing from Urobuchi. There is a lot going on in that sequence, and my analysis here only touches on a few aspects of it. Second, I found myself feeling a bit of trepidation in regards to how Mami was presented in the Concept Movie. I’m not exactly enamoured with the idea of Mami becoming a “God of Battle”, as I feel this could conflict with the larger narrative around Madoka and Homura. Madoka and Homura are meant to become enemies at some point, and I feel Mami could detract from that. As well, Mami was never that important in prior works, so it is strange to see her gaining relevance here. If anything, I would have expected Sayaka, not Mami, to be opposing Homura initially. However, there may be reasons for why Sayaka is not involved like Mami is, which I will go into later. Third, it is quite a relief to see that everyone is making a return here. Not just the Magica Quartet, but the voice actors, Yuki Kajiura, and Gekidan Inu Curry as well. Madoka cannot exist without the contributions of these people. With them involved, this new project should be just as excellent if not more so than what preceded it. Rebellion is a very tough act to follow, but if anyone can, it’s this group. Now, for the first analysis on the Concept Movie: The Definition of Happiness “Heaven has none of those things. The Goddess had none of those things.” This analysis is focused on the opening dialogue with Madoka and Homura, which seems to support my interpretation of the Law of Cycles to a certain extent, as well as being a possible tell to a primary component of the new Madoka project. The dialogue in question: “Madoka and Homura: I wonder what ‘happiness’ is. Madoka: It is the bright sunbeams of May. Homura: It is a warm family. Madoka: It is sunny-side up eggs for breakfast. Madoka and Homura: But Heaven has none of those things. Madoka and Homura: I wonder what ‘happiness’ is. Homura: It is having your name called by someone. Madoka: It is calling someone’s name. Homura: It is someone thinking about you. Madoka and Homura: The Goddess had none of those things.” This dialogue implies that Homura’s interpretation of “happiness” is a rejection of the definition Madoka used when she ascended to the Law of Cycles. Madoka’s happiness was found in being the hope of all Magical Girls, to cleave to her duty and her sacrifice and to create a heaven for them. However, note the use of “Heaven/the Goddess had none of those things” repeated twice. Basically, this is a reinforcement of how the Law of Cycles really worked. The Law of Cycles is predicated on the existence of Magical Girls, which are defined by endless battle leading to either death via combat or despair. Barring some limited exceptions, their existence is short, and they usually die young. Madoka then exacerbates this issue, creating a world which glorifies this system, leading to a sort of religious zealotry and extremism. While I find it arguable that Magical Girls are entirely necessary, that fact doesn’t change the reality of the subject. Becoming a Magical Girl means destroying your development as a person, becoming another soldier in the meat grinder that is the fight against the Wraiths and the generation of energy for the Incubators.To fight and die in “glorious” battle for the hope that lies after death...But that isn't true happiness, at least according to Homura. This then speaks to the nature of the Law of Cycles. It may be an afterlife, but it still an after-life. It is marked by death and a removal of life and the happiness it brings, growing up and experiencing the world. Magical Girls cannot know what that happiness is. Thus the definition of happiness used here is the opposite of that. It is the experience of life and growing up. It is developing relationships with those around you, and not losing them in death. This dialogue is an exhortation to live in the world, and not move on to heaven. It is for Madoka to stay as she is, and not to sacrifice herself to become a Goddess again. This is the definition of happiness within Homura’s fantasy, to live life to its fullest and not to seek martyrdom and heaven. Beyond that, I feel the concept can be taken farther here, and this could very well be the point of what the dialogue is eventually leading to. As mentioned before, this “definition of happiness” is premised on Homura’s rejection of the definition set by Madoka. But this rejection has already occurred, as it was a primary component of Rebellion, especially its ending. Rebellion, in its deconstruction of the series, asks a very pertinent question: “Was Madoka right? Is her idealism correct?”. Homura herself, in her actions, answers “No”, but the larger Madoka series, I feel, has not answered this question yet. As such, the “definition of happiness” seems to be setting the stage for answering this question, as it provides the narrative frame which will define the conflict between Homura and Madoka. Who is correct? Whose idealism will bear out, and what will be the chosen “definition of happiness”? This will be the defining and central tenent of of what the Concept Movie proposes, as it is now Madoka itself that will answer the question that Rebellion asked of the series. Lord Justice fucked around with this message at 02:59 on Jan 7, 2016 |
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Jan 7, 2016 01:22
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HE'S BACK
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Jan 7, 2016 01:33
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Heeey, you're back. This one is definitely quite a bit easier to read and less....wordy than the last few.
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Jan 7, 2016 01:35
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Lord Justice posted:Madoka: It is sunny-side up eggs for breakfast. How many times have you heard the same goddamn lecture Madoka, and you just piss it away?
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Jan 7, 2016 01:36
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What are your thoughts w/r/t  (I'm kidding, welcome back  )
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Jan 7, 2016 01:41
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Lord Justice posted:“Madoka calls for analysis, and I answer. No greater good. No just cause. All for Madoka.” I haven't actually seen the Concept Movie so I don't feel I can comment in depth on anything, but that was a good, readable analysis. I also agree with your concerns with reference to Mami- it feels like her abilities grow with each iteration of the series and focusing on her prowess detracts from what was actually interesting about her character. Admittedly, of course, her character was always fairly slight, and it remains to be seen if they can do more with her.
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Jan 7, 2016 02:06
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Knorth posted:What are your thoughts w/r/t Unironically this. Lord justice, thoughts and analysis on Homura and Sayaka's relationship, especially in light of rebellion? e: still a little wordy but a lot better, feels less pretentious. Lord justice makes progress. PerrineClostermann fucked around with this message at 02:33 on Jan 7, 2016 |
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Jan 7, 2016 02:28
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Think that homura and sayaka should kiss
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Jan 7, 2016 02:35
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frick to non-canon ships
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Jan 7, 2016 03:11
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IT'S SAYAKA AND KYOKO NOT SAYAKA AND HOMU-KYO
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Jan 7, 2016 03:15
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Lord Justice posted:The Law of Cycles is predicated on the existence of Magical Girls, which are defined by endless battle leading to either death via combat or despair. Barring some limited exceptions, their existence is short, and they usually die young. Madoka then exacerbates this issue, creating a world which glorifies this system, leading to a sort of religious zealotry and extremism. While I find it arguable that Magical Girls are entirely necessary, that fact doesn’t change the reality of the subject. Becoming a Magical Girl means destroying your development as a person, becoming another soldier in the meat grinder that is the fight against the Wraiths and the generation of energy for the Incubators.To fight and die in “glorious” battle for the hope that lies after death...But that isn't true happiness, at least according to Homura. This then speaks to the nature of the Law of Cycles. It may be an afterlife, but it still an after-life. It is marked by death and a removal of life and the happiness it brings, growing up and experiencing the world. Magical Girls cannot know what that happiness is. You make a good point here that I actually had not thought of before. I was about to half-jokingly make a comparison between being a magical girl with the Law of Cycles and being addicted to a drug like heroin, before realizing that it's actually not a bad comparison. In both cases someone undertakes a Faustian bargain where they exchange their future for happiness in the present, need to desperately and regularly partake in an activity to avoid suffering/dying, and then the only thing the Law of Cycles really changes from the perspective of the magical girl is that she now gets to experience bliss when she inevitably "overdoses." Everything up until that point is the same*, and we've never been given any indication that magical girls actually "experience" being a witch. We *have* been shown that there is something after the death of a magic girl in the form of the scenes at the end of the original series and the stuff with Sayaka and Nagisa in Rebellion, but I don't think it's clear whether there's actually any form of eternal afterlife (rather than Godoka just "resurrecting" you or something). People refer to Kyuubei being like a drug dealer, but I get the impression they're just referring to the way he behaves and the fact that he's selling something in a misleading fashion, rather than the analogy extending beyond that. *with the exception of there being more mental stress if a magical girl discovers that the witches she is fighting used to be magical girls, but I get the impression that the vast majority of magical girls never discover this
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Jan 7, 2016 03:43
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My thanks for the welcomes.Lestaki posted:I haven't actually seen the Concept Movie so I don't feel I can comment in depth on anything, but that was a good, readable analysis. I also agree with your concerns with reference to Mami- it feels like her abilities grow with each iteration of the series and focusing on her prowess detracts from what was actually interesting about her character. Admittedly, of course, her character was always fairly slight, and it remains to be seen if they can do more with her. If you haven't seen the Concept Movie yet, I would recommend against doing so, although my analysis for the next while will be focused on it. The problem is that the current version of the Concept Movie is a terrible phone recording, and it is frankly kind of painful to watch it. Hopefully, SHAFT will release a proper version after Madogatari is over, it is supposed to be a trailer for the next Madoka project. I felt that Mami's ability in Rebellion fit just fine with the character, although she was admittedly moving and shooting much faster than she did in the series. With the Concept Movie however, she's gone beyond martial ability into some sort of Gurren Lagannesque escalation of power, what with throwing massive busts of her head into Mitakihara (I'm assuming she's involved with that), ripping the ground apart in fiery displays, and summoning continent sized space cannons. I really have no idea what SHAFT is doing there, and there isn't enough information presently to figure it out. With that said, I believe more can be done with her, especially given her development in The Different Story. As a speculative example, the construction of Post-Rebellion could create an interesting scenario where Mami is forced to choose between her life together with Nagisa and everyone else in Homura's Labyrinth, and having to return to the world of the Law of Cycles. Given her reaction to the truth of the Magical Girl system in the series, this could very well turn her against Madoka. Knorth posted:What are your thoughts w/r/t One of Homura's main character flaws is her taste in women. I'll probably be doing an analysis looking at Sayaka's role in the Concept Movie, especially as it relates to Homura's own role, but it's still in a conceptual stage at the moment and I'll be posting it sometime later. Lord Justice fucked around with this message at 03:58 on Jan 7, 2016 |
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Jan 7, 2016 03:45
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Hi Lord Justice I don't know if you're interested in reading material suggestions, but since you're just about the only person I know who spends as much time thinking about Madoka as I do, I figured I might leave some recommendations for stories that I think are thematically similar to Madoka (even if they have no surface similarities). Manga Boku wa Mari no Naka - I'm Inside Mari By the mangaka who wrote Aku no Hana. It's about a filthy hikkikomori who wakes up one day inside the body of Mari, the beautiful high school girl he's been fantasizing about. But her life isn't that great, and a girl who is obsessed with Mari notices a change in her behavior and calls her out on it. The two of them have an existential dilemma over what happened to the real Mari now that the hikkikomori is inhabiting her body. Qualia the Purple Gay girls with the power to tap into other dimensions discuss philosophy and subjective experience. Things get intense when an event causes one of them to start experimenting with their powers. Bokurano A group of depressed children get roped into making a contract to pilot a giant robot for the sake of protecting the planet. Definitely inspiration for some parts of Madoka. Anime Mawaru Penguindrum A story about two brothers and their little sister. The little sister dies and comes back to life, possessed by a strange apotheosis version of herself who demands her brothers search for a nebulous "Spinning Penguin Drum." A lot of characters fixated on forbidden relationships, idealized versions of others, and fate. (Made by the creator of Revolutionary Girl Utena, but shorter and has a more modern art style) Books Paul Auster's The New York Trilogy It might sound weird to compare a magical girl anime to a series of postmodern detective novellas, but the connection is there. This is a trilogy of three separate stories that are connected in unpredictable ways. They feature people who take on the job of detective without considering its implications. It's hard to explain to someone who hasn't read it, but this book deals a lot with the idea of defining one's Self. Usually you hear Utena and Princess Tutu as the obvious recommendations for someone who likes Madoka (and they're really awesome shows) but I think these are some works that people who are weird like me and find Madoka intellectually stimulating might find interesting for thematic reasons.
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Jan 7, 2016 05:00
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Welcome back Lord Justice.
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Jan 7, 2016 05:50
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Lord justice please post your fave Yuri pairings and why. Top 3.
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Jan 7, 2016 06:05
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Lord Justice posted:One of Homura's main character flaws is her taste in women. To me, she's looking for something in someone else that she'll never be able to find, and the tragedy is that the more invested she gets in looking for it, the less likely she'll be able to find it.
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Jan 7, 2016 06:18
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Namtab posted:Lord justice please post your fave Yuri pairings and why. Don't know why I'm doing this, but... I don't participate in or even particularly like the concept of "shipping" characters. With characters in a work, I'm chiefly concerned with their development in the narrative, and how they work together. Thus, if I were to create a "ship" in the sense that I think the characters work well together within the narrative, it would be Kyouko and Sayaka. They have what I would term as a "genuine relationship", in that their relationship is free of false idealism and false perceptions, such as Madoka and Homura's relationship. They had a rough start, but Kyouko finds herself again thanks to Sayaka, which leads into her sacrifice in the series. From there, it creates the dynamic of regret on Sayaka's part, of how she acted in the series, and her attempts to make up for it in Rebellion. This leads into the creation of their friendship, which is epitomized in the scene where they are fighting Homulilly. Kyouko doesn't want to lose her friend, and Sayaka regrets the fact that she had to leave her. Finally, within Homura's Labyrinth, the friendship begins anew, and in a much better context. The end result is that these two can exist together without all of the "idealistic" baggage present in the main relationship between Madoka and Homura, and exists as a sharp contrast to it. Zas posted:This is an odd way of putting things, I'll be curious to hear your follow up. It's a somewhat ambiguous and vague joke about Homura's relationship with Madoka. I don't like Madoka very much as a character, and there's a few reasons why. I've written about it before in the past, and that analysis in brief can be summed up as such: Madoka's actions towards Homura are mentally abusive, and are a direct cause of both her becoming broken in the series and her eventual transformation into Demon Homura. In short, Homura is suffering from Stockholm Syndrome. I'll probably expand on this in future analysis, but as well, I find Madoka to be a very selfish individual (even if she's acting in a "selfless" manner), and utterly infatuated with a broken and toxic idealism centred on Magical Girls. Magical Girls are a terrible system by definition and she saw fit to continue perpetrating it without a shred of remorse. Basically, Homura could be doing a lot better than Madoka, and the fact that she likes Madoka so much means she has terrible taste. Lord Justice fucked around with this message at 09:54 on Jan 7, 2016 |
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Jan 7, 2016 08:37
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The prodigal son is home.
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Jan 7, 2016 09:25
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Lord Justice posted:Don't know why I'm doing this, but... Finally, someone says what I've also been thinking. I've never viewed Kyouko and Sayaka's relationship as being anything other than friendship. Not that there would be anything wrong with it being a romantic relationship (and I wouldn't be shocked if it turned out to be romantic), but the "evidence" just isn't there and I get the feeling that a lot of the shipping going on is done by (mostly male) fans who just like the idea of those pairings being real. It's also important to keep in mind that Sayaka was interested in Kyousuke and bisexuality is not exactly common in Japanese media (unless played for laughs). I feel like, if a Sayaka/Kyouko romance becomes completely canon (and I think this is very possible given the positive fan response to that pairing), that it's ultimately a form of fan-service. The only romance I see being explicit is Homura's feelings for Madoka (since friendship doesn't as commonly turn into obsession like that and of course the "IT'S LOVE" thing in Rebellion); everything else just looks like very close friendship. I feel like people who watch anime (and nerd culture in general) tend to forget that people can care deeply about their friends without being romantically interested in them. Also, more importantly, love between the characters (again with the exception of Homura -> Madoka) simply isn't necessary to tell the story in the series/Rebellion. I mean, I don't have any problem with people having fun with the idea of these girls romantically loving each other (I even find Homura/Sayaka to be an interesting hypothetical pairing), but it's kind of silly when people start to take it seriously and get offended/upset at the possibility that they are wrong. I always hesitate to mention this because of the immense popularity of shipping in anime/nerd media and the response is usually "WHAT DO YOU HAVE AGAINST ____ AND ____ BEING IN LOVE???" quote:It's a somewhat ambiguous and vague joke about Homura's relationship with Madoka. I don't like Madoka very much as a character, and there's a few reasons why. I've written about it before in the past, and that analysis in brief can be summed up as such: Madoka's actions towards Homura are mentally abusive, and are a direct cause of both her becoming broken in the series and her eventual transformation into Demon Homura. In short, Homura is suffering from Stockholm Syndrome. While I agree about Madoka being infatuated with the idea of being a magical girl (and I've always had the feeling that her wish was extremely limited given the power she had available to her), I think her actions - while selfish - are completely understandable. Someone who is dying and in despair is probably not going to be in a state to consider the effects their actions might have on someone else's psyche. People tend to be selfish (I actually prefer the term "self-centered") when suffering; they simply don't have the spare energy to devote to others. So while I agree that Madoka certainly isn't the selfless, Good figure she seems to be portrayed as, I also don't think she is a bad person. She is just a young girl with some dumb, idealistic views of magical girls and the magical girl system who made some questionably useful and ultimately hurtful (towards Homura) decisions.
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Jan 7, 2016 10:18
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Yeah but on the other hand Sayaka literally told Kyoko that she was the reason she wanted to live again while holding hands, if that's not implicitly romantic at least I don't know what is. Sayaka is a teenager and is allowed to be confused about romantic stuff up to and and including having those feeling for two different people. Also lol at 'if they did have a relationship is just be fanservice anyway', yeah I'm sure Shinbo and Urobuchi would compromise their vision to appease a bunch of internet nerds instead of actually wanting that to happen.
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Jan 7, 2016 10:39
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Ytlaya posted:While I agree about Madoka being infatuated with the idea of being a magical girl (and I've always had the feeling that her wish was extremely limited given the power she had available to her), I think her actions - while selfish - are completely understandable. Someone who is dying and in despair is probably not going to be in a state to consider the effects their actions might have on someone else's psyche. People tend to be selfish (I actually prefer the term "self-centered") when suffering; they simply don't have the spare energy to devote to others. To be clear I place no blame on the Madoka of Loop 3. You're correct in that she was dying, not thinking straight, and had no way of knowing what she was doing to Homura. With that said, I feel it isn't a good argument to bring up that Madoka is a dumb teenager here, and Ultimate Madoka's existence is why. I place a much higher burden on Ultimate Madoka, who had the capacity to see what she did and I would think, to understand it. She exists as a concept of hope which is everywhere, which means she can see the entirety of human history, etc. In sum, she really shouldn't be acting like a dumb teenager anymore. She still does of course, and the scene in void space is particularly problematic in how centered it is on Madoka, especially considering Madoka never even bothers to ask Homura how she feels or what she wants. In the end, Ultimate Madoka should have acted a lot better than she did, and I don't feel she can hide behind the excuse of stupidity or being a teenager. She should have known better. Sakurazuka posted:Yeah but on the other hand Sayaka literally told Kyoko that she was the reason she wanted to live again while holding hands, if that's not implicitly romantic at least I don't know what is. She said this because she regretted her actions in the series and was attempting to make up for it. The issue with assigning romance here is that there is no prior narrative basis for it. What reason does Sayaka have for actually being in love with Kyouko at this point? You would need to answer this question to support your argument.
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Jan 7, 2016 10:46
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Ah yes, I forgot about the most important thing in discussing a teenagers emotions, reason and logic.
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Jan 7, 2016 10:51
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Sakurazuka posted:Ah yes, I forgot about the most important thing in discussing a teenagers emotions, reason and logic. Let's be real here, who doesn't make fun of shippers for putting two characters together when there's little to no indication they would hit it off? Saying there should be reasons for your argument the two should be/are together isn't asking teenagers to be reasonable. I mean sure, it's no coincidence Sayaka ends up with two different Kyous and the movie makes it pretty explicit, but the series did a piss-poor job of establishing or building towards that. Before the movie they spend most of their screen time antagonists and even mortal enemies, with their second to last scene together basically being Sayaka telling Kyouko she's some dumb orphan for thinking it's okay to steal food to not starve to death. Pre-movie I just shrugged people saying they're together off as the kinda shippers who always decide mortal enemies are secretly in love with each other.
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Jan 7, 2016 11:13
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Sakurazuka posted:Also lol at 'if they did have a relationship is just be fanservice anyway', yeah I'm sure Shinbo and Urobuchi would compromise their vision to appease a bunch of internet nerds instead of actually wanting that to happen. It's a series with a primary cast of teenage girls made for a primary audience of adult men.
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Jan 7, 2016 11:16
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a cartoon duck posted:It's a series with a primary cast of teenage girls made for a primary audience of adult men. So? And also their actual last scene together is Kyoko sacrificing herself in an attempt to bring Sayaka back from being a witch, I guess you can use that as a justification for Sayaka falling in love with her, I guess. Sakurazuka fucked around with this message at 11:31 on Jan 7, 2016 |
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Jan 7, 2016 11:23
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when will madoka go beyond subtext gays and have the genuine gays
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Jan 7, 2016 12:14
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When the world is a better place
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Jan 7, 2016 12:50
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People started seeing Sayaka and Kyoko in a potentially romantic light due to the whole self-sacrifice followed by Utena imagery in episode 9, simple as that. Since fanworks feed fanworks and there was never anything to really challenge the notion even if it was never confirmed either it just got popular. Obviously people who are obsessed with shipping them are crazy but that's true for people obsessed actual romantic pairings too so the distinction is mostly pointless.
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Jan 7, 2016 14:57
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People do the shipping because they think it's fun. If you don't find it fun you can ignore it. Piling up evidence for and against romantic pairings as if you're a lawyer at the Supreme Court of Anime isn't fun regardless of whether or not you like shipping.
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Jan 7, 2016 15:33
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Lord Justice posted:
Her actions leading up to becoming "angel" madoka are the result of her making the best decision possible based on the information she had available. It sucked to be homura, but madoka put the needs of everyone above one person. The effects of the wish meant that the magical girl system needed to exist in some capacity or another. We are informed during the series that human civilisation and evolution is partially a result of incubator interference. A wish to erase the magic girl system contains both inherent risk and paradox. Madokas wish was an attempt to detoxify an inherently flawed system by using the rules of the system. Whilst it didn't generate an ideal solution you can't deny that madokas actions didn't make things better. Thinking about homura, you're right in that madoka could probably see what she wants. I'd also posit that perhaps madoka didn't need to ask her how she felt which is why she gave homura the ribbon, as an apology and as a memory. It would have been kinder, in retrospect, to just eliminate all memory of her. That was madokas mistake. Do you think kyouko x mami is a cute couple
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Jan 7, 2016 15:43
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Namtab posted:Do you think kyouko x mami is a cute couple Kyoko x Sayaka Mami x Madoka Homura x a whole room full of psychiatrists
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Jan 7, 2016 16:24
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I still think Madoka and Sayaka are the cutest couple.  Ytlaya posted:You make a good point here that I actually had not thought of before. One very very big difference is that the new system encourages teaming up, whereas the previous one encouraged going solo. Moreover, demons by all appearances are far less unpredictable, dangerous and/or traumatic than witches & their familiars. These two changes make the whole magical girl business a lot nicer than it used to be. There's support networks now.
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Jan 7, 2016 16:42
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Namtab posted:I think you probably need a better term than "mentally abusive" to describe madokas relationship towards homura. You're right that I need a better term for it, I've just never been entirely sure what. The issue is that Madoka isn't really aware of what she's doing to Homura. She should be, especially in light of Ultimate Madoka, but it is what it is. Madoka probably couldn't be with Homura like Homura wanted, no. I drat Madoka for not even asking, but there probably wasn't a solution where Homura can be with Madoka. With that said, you did mention one other solution (removing Homura's memories), and another would be to remove Homura from the Magical Girl system. She has no reason to be part of it, and really shouldn't be, especially given Rebellion. As well, none of that would necessitate putting Homura's needs above the "needs" of Magical Girls, she could have done both. To be clear here, Madoka's wish was necessary in the sense that Walpurgisnacht and by extension Kriemhild Gretchen needed to be stopped. Madoka's wish did save the world and Mitakihara. But I still take issue with her idealism and its end results, and preserving the Magical Girl system as she did can be criticized. It could have been done differently to minimize harm, such as maintaining the bare minimum of Magical Girls necessary for civilization (although I'm not convinced they are) and for dealing with the Wraiths. Sayaka for example does not need to be a Magical Girl, and the fact that Madoka thinks it was a good thing that Sayaka destroyed herself over Kyousuke's hand and his career is incredibly disturbing. In any other context and with any other person, Sayaka committing suicide to heal a guy's hand would be seen as insane and dangerous enough that Sayaka would need help to protect her from herself. But since it turned her into a `Magical Girl`, it's fine by Madoka's standards. Namtab posted:The effects of the wish meant that the magical girl system needed to exist in some capacity or another. We are informed during the series that human civilisation and evolution is partially a result of incubator interference. A wish to erase the magic girl system contains both inherent risk and paradox. Madokas wish was an attempt to detoxify an inherently flawed system by using the rules of the system. Whilst it didn't generate an ideal solution you can't deny that madokas actions didn't make things better. The whole civilization is created by Magical Girls existing is a supposition on the Incubators part. We are lead to believe it is true by the imagery and with some of the Magical Girls being important historical figures, but I don't feel there is enough hard evidence to support it. Everything that the Incubators say is misdirection and half-truth, suppositions presented as reality when the real answer lies elsewhere. As well, there's certain questions to ask. If Magical Girls are the the cause of civilization, why does Madoka seem to exist in the usual patriarchal system we use, and not a more matriarchal one? What about the role of men in Madoka's world, did they not have the effect they had in actual history? Granted, there really isn't enough evidence here either way, but I do not trust the Incubators. They're very good at twisting the truth around into something else entirely. Mami and Kyouko worked together well enough in The Different Story as sisters, I suppose. Kyte posted:One very very big difference is that the new system encourages teaming up, whereas the previous one encouraged going solo. Moreover, demons by all appearances are far less unpredictable, dangerous and/or traumatic than witches & their familiars. These two changes make the whole magical girl business a lot nicer than it used to be. There's support networks now. This actually isn't as good as it sounds. Like I said in my initial analysis, the state and eventual resolution for Magical Girls is effectively unchanged from how they were in the series. It's still either fight until early death by combat or despair. Given that Magical Girls now work together with the idolization of the Law of Cycles empowering them, it's reasonable to me to suggest that there is actually more Magical Girls being created in this system than the old one. Effectively, it makes a bad problem even worse, no one should really be participating in the system if it is not strictly necessary for them to do so. As well, those "support networks" didn't seem to be particularly helpful in either Sayaka's or Homura's case. Lord Justice fucked around with this message at 20:03 on Jan 7, 2016 |
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Jan 7, 2016 19:56
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Lord Justice posted:Madoka probably couldn't be with Homura like Homura wanted, no. I drat Madoka for not even asking, but there probably wasn't a solution where Homura can be with Madoka. With that said, you did mention one other solution (removing Homura's memories), and another would be to remove Homura from the Magical Girl system. She has no reason to be part of it, and really shouldn't be, especially given Rebellion. As well, none of that would necessitate putting Homura's needs above the "needs" of Magical Girls, she could have done both. While I agree with some of the general questions you raise about Madoka's handling of Homura, I question whether Madoka even has the ability to influence things like this. People call her a God but she's mostly the avatar for a wish called the Law of Cycles, so it's unclear how much power she has apart from purifying the souls of magical girls when they despair. If I recall, she does allude to the fact she could have changed Sayaka's fate at the end of the series- I'm just not sure how she'd actually do this, nor am I clear on whether she could influence Homura's memories or her status as a magical girl. We know she can co-opt dead magical girls as allies, interfere directly in a physical body and achieve various feats as seen in Rebellion, but all that was undertaken to ensure the Law of Cycles could function as intended in the face of disruption. Rebellion also demonstrated that her ability to accomplish her mission is imperfect. To me, asking why Madoka doesn't save Homura is akin to asking why she doesn't stop earthquakes or prevent famine. She isn't an omnipotent God; her wish and her powers are quite narrow. Lestaki fucked around with this message at 20:36 on Jan 7, 2016 |
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Jan 7, 2016 20:29
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First off, regarding "Godoka", I don't get the impression that she can do stuff like erase Homura's memories or ensure she never becomes a magical girl. She seems more like the embodiment/avatar of a universal law. So she has omniscience, but not omnipotence (at least outside of her own limited domain). While she could have maybe done these things with her wish, I'm pretty sure you can only have one wish granted and can't be like "I want to ensure no magical girls becomes witches, oh, and also wipe Homura's memory."Kyte posted:One very very big difference is that the new system encourages teaming up, whereas the previous one encouraged going solo. Moreover, demons by all appearances are far less unpredictable, dangerous and/or traumatic than witches & their familiars. These two changes make the whole magical girl business a lot nicer than it used to be. There's support networks now. While we're shown them teaming up, don't they still need to use whatever they get from the Wraiths to detox their gems? It seems like, while being in a group would be beneficial in terms of surviving battles, you would also need to kill Wraiths more frequently to support more team members. Also, the fact that it is nicer than the old system isn't exactly a compliment. That's like saying going to war now is nicer because armies won't use chemical/biological weapons or something. It's still clearly terrible, and it is still obviously quite possible for magical girls to die in the "line of duty" (like ends up happening to Sayaka). They still have terrible lives, even if they do have more support. Btw here is another silly analogy; Madoka and the Law of Cycles is neoliberalism, believing that the status quo is ideal as long as it has some minor regulations in place. But Homura realizes that as long as the incubators (the bourgeoisie) profit off of the work of magical girls (the proletariat), true socialism can never be achieved. vvv Hitomi is the petit bourgeoisie who is comfortable with the status quo and unconcerned with politics/economics Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 20:39 on Jan 7, 2016 |
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Jan 7, 2016 20:33
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How does Hitomi (Hitomi) figure into this?
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Jan 7, 2016 20:36
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The direct quote from Madoka at the end of Eternal: "Sayaka: Looks like... I ended up causing you a lot of trouble. Madoka: No. I'm the one who should apologize. In order to save you, I had to leave things as if nothing has happened. As a result this future (Kyousuke playing the violin) would have to disappear as well. But I thought it probably wasn't exactly what you wanted... I think your wish and all the hard work you did for it were truly precious. It absolutely wasn't meaningless." Given Madoka's wording here, I am inclined to believe that she did have some power to alter the new universe, to erase wishes if nothing else. This leads into my alternate solution, wherein she would have negated the wishes of those who were not necessary for the system. Whether Homura can be removed is perhaps an edge case, how she works in the new world isn't entirely clear. Wraith Arc probably has more information here but I haven't read it. Can this quote be made to address Homura's memories? Perhaps, but it would require extrapolation. But whether she could have removed Homura's memories or not, she still made a concerted effort to make Homura remember anyway. a cartoon duck posted:How does Hitomi (Hitomi) figure into this? "Hitomi: "I've been forbidden to talk about it. If the benefits of magic aren’t kept a secret, perhaps its effects will disappear."" Lord Justice fucked around with this message at 21:08 on Jan 7, 2016 |
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Jan 7, 2016 20:59
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Thank you people, for acknowledging that Sayaka and Kyouko as a romantic couple is not built at all in the series and largely put in the movie as a form of fan service. They do have an interesting dynamic but so does Sayaka Homura by the end of the movie. I'll go ahead and echo concerns about mami though. She really wasn't much of a character, and that was her character. The more we know her, the more she either has to be this ridiculous paragon of virtue and skill that she was represented as to Madoka and Sayaka, or she has to reveal more and more flaws that make her character largely meaningless. Mami should have stayed dead
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Jan 7, 2016 21:02
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PerrineClostermann posted:Thank you people, for acknowledging that Sayaka and Kyouko as a romantic couple is not built at all in the series and largely put in the movie as a form of fan service. They do have an interesting dynamic but so does Sayaka Homura by the end of the movie. I thought Mami fit her role well in the original series; she was basically a plot device to inform Madoka (and I guess Sayaka as well) that being a magical girl is dangerous and you can die doing it. Sayaka has a similar role, to reveal the true nature of magical girls (soul being in the gem + turning into witches).
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Jan 7, 2016 21:15
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Going back to half of my theory as to why madoka maintains the system (to prevent a paradox), this may also explain why madoka kept homura as a magical girl. Homuras powers were directly responsible for madoka becoming as powerful as she gets. Even under a more ideal solution wherein the bare minimum of magical girls as necessary exist homura needed to have her powers to ensure that madoka gets hers. What do you think of kyouko x madoka as a couple.
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Jan 7, 2016 21:33
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