Financial Independence: Methods, Mindsets and Cloth Diapers

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > Financial Independence: Methods, Mindsets and Cloth Diapers

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Cicero: Dec 17, 2003; Jumpjet, melta, jumpjet. Repeat for ten minutes or until victory is assured.

silvergoose posted:

Designated Hitler

I now want to spend the rest of the workday coming up with valid uses for this term.

# ¿ Jul 18, 2014 18:43

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# ¿ May 10, 2024 17:19

Cicero: Dec 17, 2003; Jumpjet, melta, jumpjet. Repeat for ten minutes or until victory is assured.

I liked his post from today, mostly because I've been thinking a bit about churning. Want to travel to Europe during Summer 2016, but financially it hurts to spend that much money. Hopefully free airline miles will reduce the pain.

# ¿ Oct 13, 2014 23:45

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Blackjack2000 posted:

Beyond that, JLF just has an amazingly cynical view of the corporate workplace, and assumes that everyone hates their jobs all the time, and would never do them if they weren't compelled to by their wasteful lifestyles. I'm going to try to keep reading, but it's really frustrating and disagreeable so far.

Maybe his attitude has changed since then, since the guy actually unretired a year or two back (I think to be a quant?).

# ¿ Nov 19, 2014 23:37

Cicero: Dec 17, 2003; Jumpjet, melta, jumpjet. Repeat for ten minutes or until victory is assured.

Thread should be changed to Financial Independence/Frugality thread. In practice people focus most of their discussion upon the frugality part of FI anyway, since the investing part is pretty simple and easy if you're just doing a standard allocation of index funds, and career advice tends to be only narrowly applicable.

Frugality and Financial Independence: Every (Wo)Man a Mustachian

# ¿ Nov 25, 2014 23:31

Cicero: Dec 17, 2003; Jumpjet, melta, jumpjet. Repeat for ten minutes or until victory is assured.

I've become a lot more frugal over the last couple years overall, but I'm gonna blow a crapton on new GPUs when the consumer Rift launches. It'll basically pay for itself though since with virtual reality, I'll never need to actually go out anymore! :v:

# ¿ Nov 27, 2014 22:07

Cicero: Dec 17, 2003; Jumpjet, melta, jumpjet. Repeat for ten minutes or until victory is assured.

Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:

It's going to be so long before I can touch them that I basically don't have them - I'd like to be FI 20+ years before I can take from them without penalty. There probably is a point where you putting more in delays your retirement, depending on income. Definitely should be post tax and post-matching though. I'm not too caught up in my percentage though.

Unless you use SEPP or a Roth conversion ladder. The other thing is you can just draw extra from your taxable accounts while the overall draw from your net worth is the targeted 4% or whatever, which works effectively the same as long as the taxable accounts don't get zeroed out before you hit 59.5.

# ¿ Nov 28, 2014 03:07

Cicero: Dec 17, 2003; Jumpjet, melta, jumpjet. Repeat for ten minutes or until victory is assured.

moana posted:

LOL I tried doing (change in net worth)/income and got a savings rate of 125%.

He said change in net worth due to saving, not investment appreciation/income.

# ¿ Nov 28, 2014 22:44

Cicero: Dec 17, 2003; Jumpjet, melta, jumpjet. Repeat for ten minutes or until victory is assured.

LLCoolJD posted:

This is the most pathetic thing I've seen in a long time.

I don't see what's so bad about it. I imagine most people think in similar terms to this at some point, weighing the pros of having kids against the cons.

# ¿ Jan 19, 2015 03:02

Cicero: Dec 17, 2003; Jumpjet, melta, jumpjet. Repeat for ten minutes or until victory is assured.

Nah he's just mostly run out of obvious topics to talk about.

# ¿ Jan 20, 2015 06:56

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Video games are fun, easy to do, and can be pretty cheap.

But it sounds like you should mostly be focusing on getting a new job.

# ¿ Feb 12, 2015 01:40

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Droo posted:

Like uh, maybe you could work until you're 35 so your kids can get braces eventually.

Good news, there's a startup for that!

quote:

Aiming to disrupt the status quo, two companies, SmileCareClub and CrystalBraces, the company that Mr. Hofford is working with, now offer aligners remotely so adults and older teenagers can straighten their teeth at home for $900 to $2,100, depending on the complexity of their teeth-straightening needs.

�It shouldn�t have to cost a small fortune to straighten your teeth,� said Doug Hudson, one of four entrepreneurs who founded SmileCareClub. He disputes that their aligners are �do-it-yourself� braces and said patients �are guided all along the way� � in this case by customer representatives rather than the prescribing dental professional.

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/02/01/a-trip-to-the-mail-box-not-the-orthodontist/

# ¿ Feb 21, 2015 01:11

Cicero: Dec 17, 2003; Jumpjet, melta, jumpjet. Repeat for ten minutes or until victory is assured.

Radbot posted:

Let's be honest, the big divide is how much you make.

It can easily be either. There are plenty of financial idiots making 200k+ as lawyers or doctors and just blowing it all on a huge house, luxury cars, fancy vacations, elite private schools, etc. and then if they ever lose their bigbucks job they are incredibly screwed. It's obviously much harder to become FI on a low income though, no one disputes that.

quote:

he implies that anyone can do it.

Depends on what 'it' you're talking about. If you're talking about "become financially independent in a short timespan" then yeah, you pretty much need a high income to do that unless your propensity for frugality matches Jacob's from ERE. The general principles of avoiding wastefulness can be applied by most Americans, though. Tons of poor people still make bad financial decisions.

Cicero fucked around with this message at 22:17 on Feb 26, 2015

# ¿ Feb 26, 2015 22:14

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Knyteguy posted:

They're pretty much flat broke now which is the biggest problem, despite him having a six figure day job and my salary being covered.

This makes it sound like there's zero chance you're gonna get a significant raise there, then, since a raise for you directly translates into a pay cut for him, right?

# ¿ Feb 27, 2015 01:45

Cicero: Dec 17, 2003; Jumpjet, melta, jumpjet. Repeat for ten minutes or until victory is assured.

Knyteguy posted:

One FI question I've personally been wondering about (Not a Children reminded of it) is how you should handle an IRA and 401k when you're going for early retirement?

Max them out, you can pull out the money early via SEPP or Roth Conversion ladder (or potentially, leave the money untouched and just draw proportionally more from taxable accounts if that won't clear out the non-retirement accounts before you hit 59.5).

# ¿ Feb 27, 2015 02:12

Cicero: Dec 17, 2003; Jumpjet, melta, jumpjet. Repeat for ten minutes or until victory is assured.

BEHOLD: MY CAPE posted:

$100 every two weeks? That's $2600 a year you're spending just to live in a clean house you irresponsible maid clown. You could buy a perfectly good 20 year old used car with 300,000 miles or less for that kind of money. To put that largess into context, if you cleaned your own house and saved the money you would have spent on a maid for only 1.5 billion years, you would be able to put as much as the entire $3.9 trillion annual budget of the US government in your Roth IRA!

Remember when goons lambasted zaurg for multiple pages for having the audacity to use paper plates? Good times.

$2600 is actually quite a bit to spend on someone else cleaning your house for most people. Yeah if you're pulling down 350k it's not a big deal as long as your tastes aren't similarly expensive in other areas.

# ¿ Feb 27, 2015 03:01

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I just thought it's funny how we've gone from a goon consensus of berating a guy for a pretty small financial indulgence into the recent trend of overexaggerating frugality oneupsmanship, which you have been so nice to demonstrate for us.

# ¿ Feb 27, 2015 04:38

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BEHOLD: MY CAPE posted:

Right, I guess it's all semantics but he appears to be basically a multi-profession freelancer for his living

Right, the main point of being FI is that you don't HAVE to work, not that you aren't actually going to do any work. MMM obviously does work, he just does whatever he wants, whenever he wants, for as long as he wants.

# ¿ Mar 1, 2015 19:20

Cicero: Dec 17, 2003; Jumpjet, melta, jumpjet. Repeat for ten minutes or until victory is assured.

It always amazes me that people say, "oh, without a regular job I would have too much free time/wouldn't know what to do!" Really? There aren't, like, a million things you want to try but don't have enough time to get to? I'd love to travel more, learn languages, learn more instruments, get better at badminton, get in better shape, spend more time with my family, learn to be a good cook, become handier around the house, make video games instead of just playing them, etc.

I have no illusions that I would spend ALL my free time in FI/ER productively, of course, but I'm pretty confident I would be able to pursue at least a few of those at a time.

# ¿ Mar 2, 2015 00:31

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quote:

As an aside, I've alway found the things people say they're going to do when they achieve FI to be vapid and a bit obnoxious, and not all that different from how trust fund kids and the idle rich think they spend their time.

Volunteering? Learning languages? Traveling? Writing?

How are any of those 'vapid' or 'a bit obnoxious'? You think it's obnoxious when people learn other languages or travel, or volunteer? What?

Blackjack2000 posted:

Volunteering? Learning languages? Traveling? Writing? Nothing, and I mean, nothing is preventing you from doing those things while you have a full time career.

Sure there is: it's called a job. Between working and commute, that consumes 45-50 hours of my week, so nearly half my waking time. Between that, normal life things/chores, and having a kid, I don't have a ton of free time. As it is, I can spare enough to do one hobby at a time (currently Starcraft). I might be able to do one more if I pushed it, but I'm not the most self-disciplined guy. I like having some relaxing time reading on the internet or reading books too, which is what would have to go.

quote:

That's a third of the year.

Having it forcibly spread out means that many of those things can be difficult to pursue. It'd be lot easier to learn how to make games if I could treat it more like a full-time job when I wanted, rather than sneaking it in bits and pieces at night and on the weekend.

Your post reminds me of this:

quote:

I have always been a big proponent of following your heart and doing exactly what you want to do. It sounds so simple, right? But there are people who spend years�decades, even�trying to find a true sense of purpose for themselves. My advice? Just find the thing you enjoy doing more than anything else, your one true passion, and do it for the rest of your life on nights and weekends when you�re exhausted and cranky and just want to go to bed.

It could be anything�music, writing, drawing, acting, teaching�it really doesn�t matter. All that matters is that once you know what you want to do, you dive in a full 10 percent and spend the other 90 torturing yourself because you know drat well that it�s far too late to make a drastic career change, and that you�re stuck on this mind-numbing path for the rest of your life.

Is there any other way to live?

I can�t stress this enough: Do what you love�in between work commitments, and family commitments, and commitments that tend to pop up and take immediate precedence over doing the thing you love. Because the bottom line is that life is short, and you owe it to yourself to spend the majority of it giving yourself wholly and completely to something you absolutely hate, and 20 minutes here and there doing what you feel you were put on this earth to do.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/find-the-thing-youre-most-passionate-about-then-do,31742/

Cicero fucked around with this message at 05:36 on Mar 2, 2015

# ¿ Mar 2, 2015 05:30

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Blackjack2000 posted:

I think it's obnoxious when people think they are full time occupations.

Who said they were full time occupations? I'm confused, I don't remember anyone asserting this.

quote:

Jobs require us to do the things we don't want to do. They force us to get up early and get ourselves into the office. They make us stick with it when things are frustrating or not working the way we want them to.

Ok?

Although honestly you could say the some thing about hobbies depending on your level of drive and commitment.

quote:

Are you sure that's what it is? Are you sure the reason you're not making games is because you're not required to?

Well there's no way to know for sure right now. I'd certainly like to try.

Your angle here seems odd. I had a kid, that's hard work, and nobody required me to do it. Granted, it's a lot harder to give up on than trying to make games on the weekend. :v:

quote:

You admit that you're not the most "self-disciplined guy" and that's good, neither am I. But doesn't that make you wonder what you would do with all that extra time if you really had it? I mean, would you really write games, or would you play them?

Both, I think. Would I commit 40 hours/week to making games? Probably not, but I could probably do 20, and maybe 'burst' 40-50 when I'm really into it.

quote:

I laughed at the Onion article, but the problem with that attitude is that people get all worked up thinking that they're missing out on their passion. Do you really only have one passion? I mean, I love soccer, sailing, coding, reading, writing, traveling, seeing my niece, and a whole bunch of other stuff that I work into my spare time and my weekends.

Splitting it into bits and pieces means it's very hard to pursue those passions seriously. I occasionally work on little coding side projects, but it's hard to sink my teeth into anything really meaty.

# ¿ Mar 2, 2015 09:22

Cicero: Dec 17, 2003; Jumpjet, melta, jumpjet. Repeat for ten minutes or until victory is assured.

That's a really weird complaint about MMM when you consider how many people he's probably convinced to bike more through his highly popular blog posts (me, for example). That's probably helped reduce the impact of climate change a couple orders of magnitude more than +1 protester.

edit: the way I look at it, MMM's blog represents a sort of bottom-up activism, focused on convincing individuals to change their lifestyle directly, rather than getting the government to set policies that then change individual lifestyles (e.g. petitioning for increasing funding for walking/biking/transit). There's room for both types, no need to set them against each other.

Cicero fucked around with this message at 20:37 on Mar 3, 2015

# ¿ Mar 3, 2015 20:32

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quote:

Bike enthusiasts lives are not practical beyond urban, near urban living conditions

Fortunately, most people live in urban, not rural, areas.

quote:

and unless you change policy to shape a society with less need or less ability to get carbon spewing resources, it's pretty much pointless to try anything other than to feel good about yourself for riding a bike.

It's the same as an individual recycling or an individual voting. Yeah if you just look at that one person it's meaningless, but in aggregate it does matter.

What you're missing is that individual lifestyle changes themselves can influence big things like how much drilling for oil goes on. They don't drill for oil for fun, they do it because the demand is there, and thus, the prices make it profitable. When oil prices collapsed last year, there was a major slowdown in fossil fuel extraction and exploration. If demand drops (and this is part of what has been suppressing gas prices, that demand is flat or down in the first world), then prices drop, then drilling drops.

# ¿ Mar 3, 2015 20:44

Cicero: Dec 17, 2003; Jumpjet, melta, jumpjet. Repeat for ten minutes or until victory is assured.

blugu64 posted:

Isn't this exactly the point of FI? Not having to care what other people think about how you spend your time, and doing what you value to the point you value it?

But his values are wrong.

# ¿ Mar 4, 2015 02:26

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Mofabio posted:

What? I said he depoliticized political questions. This would also be true if he had different values.

You criticized his lack of protesting/field activism, implicitly critiquing his personal values that apparently don't put much stock in doing said activism.

# ¿ Mar 6, 2015 00:14

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Inverse Icarus posted:

As much as MMM would have me believe it, my sister's hair is not really on fire. She has debt and she lives in a world of monthly payments, and that's the way she's choosing to live her life.

The problem with this is that it's a very precarious balance; yeah it seems fine right now, but if something happens where she loses her job, it all goes to crap.

Also, as MMM has pointed out before, going into debt means she actually gets less of the crazy things she wants, not more.

# ¿ Mar 17, 2015 19:25

Cicero: Dec 17, 2003; Jumpjet, melta, jumpjet. Repeat for ten minutes or until victory is assured.

Inverse Icarus posted:

She's a teacher with tenure, so.

Fair enough, although of course it's always possible something will come up (e.g. finds ~*~the one~*~ and wants to move with him somewhere else, decides she is burned out on teaching and wants to quit, etc.).

quote:

retire early in the next 5-10* years

* It's complicated

This is pretty much the thread for early retirement, why did you feel the need to asterisk this?

# ¿ Mar 17, 2015 23:33

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Inept posted:

The road to FI is paved with statutory rape accusations.

Ahahaha I totally missed this.

# ¿ Apr 10, 2015 03:32

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Dwight Eisenhower posted:

What? They're totally orthogonal.

I think it'd be hard to do assuming this means that the spouses become financially independent at different times. If Lisa becomes FI before her husband Bob, and then dicks around at home all day and only does half the chores, I think that even though Bob can rationally accept that this is fair, emotionally it would be difficult to not have the kneejerk of reaction of "you're the one at home, do more around the house" or "how come you get to sit around while I work all day??". Conversely, from Lisa's point of view, well, she's the one who (presumably) sacrificed more and became more frugal to become FI more quickly, why shouldn't she take advantage of it? And why should she had to do a majority of the chores just because Bob blew more of his money on Warhammer figurines and ATVs over the years?

If you have kids it becomes even more problematic. It would be very difficult for the FI spouse to not become the 'default parent' even if they don't want to, and then at that point they're more like a traditional homemaker than someone who became FI.

I'm not saying it can't work, but I think it would be difficult for most people.

# ¿ Apr 16, 2015 02:48

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We're still a long ways off from being FI so there's a strong chance this will change, but what I and my wife have discussed that we'll do once we're FI is that since our FI money should be able to cover all the basic life expenses, at that point any extra money we make from choosing to work will be under the sole control of the person who made the money. We'll probably have to throw some caveats in there (e.g. if you're only able to go to a job at a certain time because the other spouse watches the kids right then, would need to account for that), but I like the general idea of it. It probably favors me since my chosen career is much higher-paying overall (programming vs music performance), but on the other hand it's a lot easier to split music up into little jobs (teaching lessons and performance gigs) than programming.

# ¿ Apr 17, 2015 19:55

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Rick Rickshaw posted:

That being said, he will say that it's possible to live off of $7000 per year in the US. This pretty much assumes free accommodations.

This may be because $7,000/person was what Jacob from ERE was living off of before.

# ¿ May 8, 2015 18:26

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T. J. Eckleburg posted:

I think a couple could live off 14k/year in the city I live in in NC. An individual on 7k/year would be harder, because it would be harder to find the right rent situation, but you could make it work.

Being in a couple or part of a family isn't what makes frugality easier. Being willing to share resources is what makes frugality easier. Of course, that often goes with being in a family, but there are situations where you have families that don't share that much (e.g. affluent families with enormous homes where effectively every person has an apartment/small home-sized space) and situations where people who are technically single share resources (having roommates being the obvious example, but a more extreme version would be intentional communities).

# ¿ May 8, 2015 20:54

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Yeah I wasn't really disagreeing with you.

# ¿ May 8, 2015 21:29

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shrike82 posted:

You get less money from a dc plan.

Isn't this because expected investment returns from ye olde db plans were generally overoptimistic? And that's why they're all underfunded now?

# ¿ May 11, 2015 22:08

Cicero: Dec 17, 2003; Jumpjet, melta, jumpjet. Repeat for ten minutes or until victory is assured.

I think the biggest problem with DC plans is that they're managed by the employee and most people are financially retarded, particularly for long-term investments. If you put in 10% of your income or whatever usually goes into DB plans when you have them and put them into a good fund in a 401k your whole working life, you'll have a respectable nest egg by the end that's probably roughly comparable to a pension, or at least comparable to the kind of pension that isn't in danger of going bankrupt. But most people put off those contributions until they're middle-aged (thus missing out on the most compound growth) and do dumb things like pick expensive bad plans or pull money out of their 401k to renovate their house or buy a boat.

Basically humans are reasonably good at learning for things where you get a consistent feedback loop, but retirement only happens once. There is no learning from your mistakes when it comes to retirement.

# ¿ May 11, 2015 23:21

Cicero: Dec 17, 2003; Jumpjet, melta, jumpjet. Repeat for ten minutes or until victory is assured.

Being a parent, I really liked MMM's most recent post. Specifically this part really spoke to me, especially since I have an Asian tiger mom and I grew up in and currently live in the bay area:

quote:

Higher Education, Performance, and Stress:

For me, this is where the rubber really meets the road. If you can�t leverage money to live more happily, then what good is it? And yet consider the stunning case study of the children of the nation�s uber-wealthy enclaves like Palo Alto, California. Despite incredible wealth and some of the best educational institutions money can buy, kids there are more stressed, less happy, and more likely to commit suicide than others who live with a fraction of their privilege.

The problem arises when high-achieving parents assume that their kids need to be pushed to achieve more themselves, to beat out the other high achievers and gain access to the most elite schools, in order to compete in this incredibly challenging modern world.

Remember way back when I started this blog in April 2011? Right there in the first paragraph of the first post, we hit this sentence:

�� when it boils down to it, we are talking about money, and the freedom it can give you. Freedom from worry, and freedom from most forms of bullshit.�

To me, raising kids to feel pressure and fear so they can be COMPETITORS is bullshit. Life is not a competition. It�s a gigantic collaboration, and the world welcomes and rewards people who see it that way.

It may be that most parents of the very-upper-middle class are still operating from a scarcity mindset. If they are addicted to a high consumption lifestyle, earning $600,000 per year but still making car and house payments, they will assume that their children will need to earn and consume just as much in order to be happy. This of course dictates a job in the top fraction of the top percent of the economy, and education with enough prestige to secure such a job.

On the other hand, having crossed the threshold of having more than enough money for a good life almost a decade ago, I cannot even imagine my son not earning a plentiful and permanent surplus very early on in his adult life. Thus, there is no need to fight for traditional elite status. It is much more efficient to rise up to into your own niche without the constant drag of material addiction telling you you aren�t good enough. Paradoxically, this path is rare enough that you might end up earning even more money in the end.

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/05/20/what-im-teaching-my-son-about-money/

# ¿ May 24, 2015 17:47

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poopinmymouth posted:

The vast majority of jobs and financial opportunities actually are a rigged system. My son (and MMM's) will have the benefit of avoiding crushing poverty, but that was through his parent's luck. I wish MMM would drop the idea that it's all a meritocracy and realize that his advice is for the people (that for whatever reason) have middle/higher incomes.

Good point, we should tell our kids, "The game is rigged, whatever career you end up with is because of luck and the nature of the system." Why didn't I think of this before??

# ¿ May 25, 2015 22:59

Cicero: Dec 17, 2003; Jumpjet, melta, jumpjet. Repeat for ten minutes or until victory is assured.

Inept posted:

While you shouldn't tell your kid that it's hopeless, you shouldn't bullshit them about it either. Let them know that some career paths are going to lead to more money, and going for that Philosophy degree isn't a great idea for most people.

This I completely agree with, I don't see what this has to do with what I or poopinmymouth or MMM said though.

poopinmymouth posted:

You don't see a problem in teaching a kid that it's all up to your own effort, in a system with gross inequality?

The biggest problems are ones of opportunity and education that my kids probably won't suffer from. That said we should definitely teach them about structural (dis)advantages, I just don't think that means that achieving a reasonable amount of financial success is down to luck if you grow up in a non-terrible middle-class household.

What home you grow up in is obviously down to luck, and some people are struck by uncontrollable tragedy or other cruel twists of fate. But then again, tons of people are also down financially just due to poor career choices, bad financial discipline, and other decisions that are entirely within their control.

tuyop posted:

It's probably good enough to compare it to getting sick. Some people are more likely to get sick than others, not their fault. Some people who are very sick can do amazing things despite it, while some people who only get a little sick sometimes are big babies about it. We should probably still help sick people, just like we should still help poor people!

Sure.

# ¿ May 26, 2015 01:22

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quote:

Also though, how much does fuel cost in Stockholm? Because it's not cheap in the U.S.

Hahaha. Actually gas is super cheap in the US compared to other developed countries.

edit: $5.80/gallon in Stockholm - http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/global_gasprices/

# ¿ Jun 26, 2015 19:52

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What definition of anarchism are you using here? 'Anarchism' seems to mean a dozen different things across the internet.

# ¿ Aug 2, 2015 05:52

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# ¿ May 10, 2024 17:19

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Mofabio posted:

I confess I don't know the many factions of anarchism or the left in general, but it seems like there are a lot of people calling themselves anarchists who are making the same connections that MMM does (work boring/painful, work causes environmental destruction).

Some of the thoughts on lifestyle are the same, yeah, but I haven't seen MMM advocating for a stateless society, which is the core of anarchism.

# ¿ Aug 3, 2015 20:04

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > Financial Independence: Methods, Mindsets and Cloth Diapers

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