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Honestly, I do know that people tend to do the "All decker or none" approach and I do see that this seems obvious, as one decker does slow down the entire group in the first glance. But as soon as you get into actual business, the time a decker needs to do his stuff is completely comparable to the time other people need for their stuff. We once had a group of a Technomancer, combined with a martial arts physical guy and a magician. None of those three were anywhere close to do stuff quickly when you follow all the rules - magic and even regular physical combat (especially when martial arts techniques are used) are at the very least as long and complex as deckers or technomancers need for their stuff, if not even longer; depending on how used the players are to the game. That's a thing with the bulky rule system in general and the game master needs to overwatch this closely and make sure that the most important rule "Role dices as rarely as possible and as often as necessary" is in place. A fluid game does not really depend on the classes present. Goons Are Gifts fucked around with this message at 00:36 on Jan 23, 2018 |
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Jan 23, 2018 00:34
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wiegieman posted:I dunno, Shadowrun has some really sketchy merc units (Hard Corps, for example) but runners tend to be several cuts above those types. It's a combination of talent, legal baggage, and a desire to be a completely independent operator that makes a runner. I'd also add that Runners usually have a completely different role and connection inside the local community and also tend to do more generalized work. Mercs usually are used for anything fighting related, depending on which runner you hire they are able (and sometimes prefer) to do literally anything. I once had a run where my PCs went grocery shopping and stuff went downhill. Depending on what kind of runner we're talking about, they are working for someone not for the sake of working for money, but to accomplish whatever and thus, can represent their own faction.
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Jan 13, 2019 12:50
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Oh yeah, given the nature of the sources catalyst gives us, I wouldn't say that runners are mainly street-level jack-of-all-traits that do your laundry, but simply do jobs that Mercs don't do, are too expensive, or are simply better suited for. The general runner scene may be described as bunch of thieves or couriers for bigger plans (not really enforcers though, except for really dirty deals where you'd want them) but the general idea behind it is that a runner can easily become something else, maybe against his will because it was just "one day, one job" that caused him to go stellar. That said, in most games I played or read about, the PCs usually are described as above street-level crap either way and do quite specific and dangerous stuff. My current group certainly wouldn't bother to come out of hiding for some courier job for 1000 Nuyen and neither the rules behind the game, nor the stories, nor the costs of the sixth world (e.g. Deckers, jesus christ) cover this impression either. Even if assuming that PCs tend to be special runners, Joe Shadowrunner surely won't be a dishwasher either. However, still not a merc, since that's simply another area of business.
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Jan 13, 2019 18:30
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Liquid Communism posted:. That's something I heard from various sources over the time. Didn't follow their news for ages, what happened to CGL?
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Jan 17, 2019 04:13
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Jesus Christ, I heard terrible rumors but didn't expect that. On the other hand, I heard about some Catalyst books not only contain straight up garbage because apparently some editions didn't even get proofread and are made from very poor material, which causes the book to fall apart in a few months. Since I only own PDFs from Catalyst and my real books were produced by Pegasus Press I didn't experience that myself, however there were some notably bad book releases recently either way. I assumed it was just them having some bad time. Since when is crap like that a thing? Are there any in-depth reports out there?
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Jan 17, 2019 13:27
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This is hurtful to read from various perspectives. I really wonder how they managed to stick along until today, given this happened years ago. However it does explain quite a lot of those books and whatever the gently caress some of their releases were in the recent past. I take it that means a new sixth edition is not exactly around the corner? 
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Jan 17, 2019 16:55
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Ronwayne posted:Power armor is verboten in SR5th*. This will be the second great idea that I have to talk my group out of. Took me days of writing to clean up the mess that their gnome caused when they smuggled her into a factory where she lived inside the pipes, slowly sabotaging everything without being noticed.
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Jan 24, 2019 12:48
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It's always sad to see Shadowrun things die, but I guess this barely ever had a player base. At least that Cyberpunk game brings some hype back in the genre. Even though it's obviously lacking dragons.
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Feb 4, 2019 01:49
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Ronwayne posted:After the mage ran away with the exec we were guarding, 8 enemy sams opened fire with aks loaded with apds. drat man, I get the feeling there was some intense tension on your table during that kind of action. Was that escalation inevitable or did you guys maneuver yourselves into having to fight them?
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Mar 13, 2019 12:45
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Don't know how it's done in the big community for that matter, but I always considered the character way more important than it's stats. My group and I as GM just finished a campaign in great fashion, everyone seemed to have liked it and they are even looking for an addendum, which I consider success. However, their characters were less than optimal. Despite having a slight above average amount of karma and experience both OOC and IC they had rather experimental concepts and their character personality was what everything came down to if poo poo hit the fan, not their partly great and partly lovely stats. We had a good number of evenings during which we had maybe one or two dice rolls in total, most of them were me figuring stuff out for them and I really enjoyed this kind of not having to rely on a perfected character setup. Yet, they did make good use of their abilities and did have solid dice pools on what they tried to do and there were also times where that was necessary and good. However, not the cornerstone of Shadowrun in general. I much prefer a crap character with a great personality, a player that portraits him properly as he sees fit and everyone involved having real emotions for or against the characters involved in the game. Unless of course we are talking about a Technomancer street Sam with sprites in every weapon.. 
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Mar 14, 2019 13:05
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Nalesh posted:Sadly a lot of people pretty much had their characters be xcom units rather than actual characters, though I do remember a really good character from my time in one of those, it was a mundane face that used drugs to the extreme, as in he had a loving constant intake novacoke gland that at the point of me seeing him for the first time, if he ever forgot to refill, would have a crash lasting years, he also rode a bicycle everywhere. Also had really good voicework for the character. Now that's a fun idea. I imagine the character was rather touch to work with in general?
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Mar 14, 2019 14:00
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eviltastic posted:Yeah I've had plenty of sessions where people had fun just using the oft-sneered-at and usually-rule-breaking sample characters. Assuming our poor franchise eventually gets out of purgatory and gets a fresh edition, I really hope the corebook makes more of a point of addressing this dynamic up front during character creation. If it's going to remain a rule set with a big character optimization minigame, the group should really be talking about that beforehand to assess how much that's going to be a part of play, and reaching some kind of compromise. I doubt you can really remove the tendencies of some people feeling the relentless urge to minmax their characters and/or cheese their way through a campaign with it. I do agree though that they should Adress this more often. Shadowrun has a quite bulky and sometimes frustratingly dense amount of rules for everything, including rolling the defense on getting sunburned. The German publisher for Shadowrun, Pegasus, even did an April fools joke where they spent 4 pages specifically ruling out every detail on how Shadowrunner have to fill out their tax returns. Every group has to find their dynamic whether you rather do it via roleplay or roll everything in detail and someone who minmaxes his character to force a win will probably try to alway go for the rolling. If that's a problem for the group, which it usually is, there's barely anything the game itself can do to reduce it I guess. After all, like with most p&p games, the rule of thumb remains: Roll as often as necessary, but as rarely as possible. And if in doubt, stick to the rules and GM judgement. .
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Mar 15, 2019 00:37
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Nah, I mean, yes, probably. But in general you just have those kind of players everywhere at all times and you can't really patch it out. It's annoying but as long as your table can manage it and the game master is able to go around it by encouraging more role play and less dice rolling, it somewhat works out. However, I also have also been quite lucky with my guys regarding that. Did you guys have games that were seriously disrupted by players going for nothing but numbers and minmax? If so, did you find a solution?
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Apr 7, 2019 20:55
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How would a fix look like for to improve that structure?
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Apr 9, 2019 23:47
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Nalesh posted:I've literally never seen anyone use karmagen. My players and I do that. For years, actually. We had like two character without it and then went back to Karmagen. I never built a rule for that, either, it just happens to always be Karmagen, as we prefer it.
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Apr 10, 2019 11:35
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Maybe karmagen is one of the reasons I had so few problems with people minmaxing the poo poo out of their characters, too. We enjoy the freedom and I personally was always against sum to ten simply because it prioritizes stuff before you as player might do that. Why do you need another priority to be a Troll instead of a human, given that both have heavy up and downsides? How can you incentive special storylines or needs if you are locked to priorities deciding for you, and your freedom in what to take be limited to the priorities you took before? Not to say the obvious problem of scaling from Chargen vs buying skills later, as was pointed out above already. I know sum to ten, priorities and even life modules are popular choices for Chargen but honestly, we tried those and never ended up happy, then tried karmagen for once and stuck to it since then, mostly because it just opens up more possibilities imo, which then may lead to more generalist characters, too. Inbefore the 25 dice pool mage makes BBQ out of some NPCs in no time, but is unable to boot his commlink. 
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Apr 10, 2019 11:44
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Okay, one will have to be some prime runner level decker to get into that host.
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Apr 14, 2019 16:28
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Given the existence of straight up matrix magic in some fluff, it appears that the authors do want to wiggle with that separation between magic and matrix here and there. Obviously that doesn't affect ingame Technomancers, so there's no difference in your point of them being relatively bad implemented though, to which I fully agree. Sometimes they feel like they just are somewhat easier Deckers with some funky extras like sprites and living persona. I'm sad they didn't go down the road and implement an entirely new concept for them instead of making them kinda mages, but I do have hopes in this being fixed one day with a new concept regarding matrix in general. You know, once sixth edition is in the shelves! 
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Apr 18, 2019 11:13
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Jesus christ. I don't even want to dig deeper into the hosed up history of CGL, but somehow it explains so many weird things happening ingame that you can't escape it.
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Apr 18, 2019 11:30
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Liquid Communism posted:Oh no, there's no escaping this. I feel like my contempt for the current writers needs context. So welcome to the sidebar from War! that Pegasus, the German publisher of SR, couldn't legally publish.  Catalyst Gaming Labs writers, providing quality fiction since whatever the gently caress is going on. I heard that some people envy that the Germans actually have Pegasus to write their stuff instead of CGL and I start to understand why that may be the case.
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Apr 18, 2019 12:47
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HidaO-Win posted:Every two years or so, the urge to run Shadowrun descends upon me much like pon farr. Then I try and figure out which edition to use and find mostly warning and red flags. I’m fairly mechanically inclined and interested in a good crunchy game with decent balance. Is it as bad as it is commonly presented, I’ve waded through the 4e anniversary book and Shadowrun Anarchy and they both seem a bit dodgy. Catalyst has been dysfunctional for years now, everything is done based on contractors and it's all over the place, so the odds of a 6th edition are not amazingly high until Catalyst sells or legally loses their rights on Shadowrun to another publisher that actually understands how writing words for a living works. I wouldn't hold my breath for it, but I am also still far from having no hope at all. Been playing 5th edition for years now, I can fully understand the problems people have with it and why older editions sometimes seem more appealing. I find it workable either way and I do enjoy playing a lot, so for me at least 5th Edition is not a deal breaker, it's what we have and what we can use.
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Apr 18, 2019 12:51
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I guess it can be considered positive, as the world still exists and humans are a thing! Shadowrun is indeed pretty dark and dystopian. Certain destinies of single people having a good time does not counter that. Even in literal apocalyptic settings like mad max level nuclear wasteland there were people profiting and probably enjoying their life. Shadowrun not being a post-apocalyptic in general offers great ways to make bank and do regular, peaceful business, but that doesn't undermine the general dark and grim future it displays.
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Apr 18, 2019 15:53
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I mean Shadowrun is inherently cyberpunk and as such, it's grim and dark and yes, pessimistic. That's what the genre is about. There's nothing wrong with searching for a positive view of futuristic fantasy though. I would argue that Cyberpunk is essential part of Shadowrun and the generally darker theme to it is woven into the foundation of the game, but it's fine look for another direction. You might indeed just try some alternative games though, there are some excellent Sci fi pen and paper games out there with a different theme to it, so that you don't have to tweak it on a ground level, but it's up to you then I guess.
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Apr 20, 2019 19:09
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Shadowrun specifically definitely is about beating and fighting, maybe also dreaming about some different great system, just as all cyberpunk fiction does. The protagonists aren't part of the machinery that makes stuff bad, they fight it, or at least are critical about it and that understanding of "rebellion" if you will is where I'd agree with you. It's not about "everything is poo poo forever and gently caress you". I would argue though that in itself it feels like the genre and maybe Shadowrun in particular is focused on that fight or denial of this world, it's what brings in the life and action into the game. I cannot see though how that fighting is meant to lead to some revolution or optimistic change as in, we change the world for the better. It definitely is involved to some degree and the game doesn't reject it, but offers a plethora of thoughts regarding how this fight shall be fought, obviously including the basic idea of bringing an end to what is now to replace it with something, but that replacement part, that idealistic principle of changing the world into something is what I couldn't see in the general theme of the game. If you would say that this battle isn't pessimistic, that's fair, every character has their motivation after all and it's rather neutral in the feeling just as fighting is in itself, but the optimistic part of creating a new great, futuristic world isn't obvious to me and that's what I meant with it appearing to be deeply woven into the setting.
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Apr 20, 2019 22:18
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jakodee posted:I mean I don’t think most Shadowrun games are going to end with the characters establishing an autonomous zone or whatever, but you can literally do shadowruns for Greenpeace and human rights organizations and be successful. Blowing up enough of a corporation to cause its collapse and then helping replace it with like, and actually democratic government, is well within the scope of activities Shadowrun proposes. Oh absolutely, that is entirely possible and is both interesting as a campaign concept as well as character setups. Shadowrun does not punish idealistic world views at all, look how for the Germans Pegasus actually wrote entire city parts into revolutionary chambers, full of people actively working on changing the system, from their perspective, to the better. As I said, this kind of battling and kicking against what is now is fundamental for Shadowrun and obviously that makes a great setup for even optimistic characters or storylines, but imo it's not really what the genre in itself is about, it's just an option and given how the world works, a rather unlikely one to succeed. On the contrary, the basic setting limits itself to the kicking, the perspective from outside the society with people that constantly are in a war against it for various reasons, but it never proposes actual concepts or unified people that go together and start off a revolution to break the corporations, change the world or call out a brave new world. It just never really was about that and the sheer tendency to rebel does not automatically result in the urge of building an utopian society, as the rather dystopian setting that Shadowrun provides already involves the fight by itself and doesn't require an optimistic goal behind it. Liquid Communism posted:You're missing the rest of the concept. 'Punch Everyone In Charge, but Know That It Is Futile'. It comes out of noir fiction and a rejection of utopian SF of the 40's and 50's, and focuses on rebels and antiheroes who are outside of society kicking inwards, in a world that is nigh impossible to make change for the better in major ways because the characters are so far from the levers of power that the best they can do is tilt at their own personal windmills. Pretty much, yeah. Shadowrunners usually (exceptions are completely fine, though) aren't optimistic heroes that try to change the society, but either just commit crimes for whatever personal reasons, often enough just in order to stay alive, or are even against the society in itself, not even bothering to consider changing it as a whole as an option, since why would they bother? The Society and the system is inherently bad and corrupted, they are not part of either, so why would they care to call out a great revolution? This, for me, feels like a rather pessimistic, even dystopian world view inside the dystopian world the setting provides, which I'd consider essential part of the basic setting Shadowrun in particular and usually Cyberpunk in general provides. Alternative settings with a different vibe though are completely fine and can provide a ton of fun to play and fiddle with.
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Apr 21, 2019 14:19
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 Coming back to this thread was a weird journey this time. Disregarding what happened last page, Poil posted:What if you picked... goatse as mentor spirit? this is the best idea for a custom rule I heard in a long time. Can't wait until some shadowrun podcasts use this as a plot hook. 
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Apr 22, 2019 11:49
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The original discussion evolved around the question whether or not Shadowrun is a rather darker, dystopian futuristic fantasy world or if it's generally an optimistic view at the world of up to 2080. No idea how this turned into a capitalism/socialism discussion with black and white questions about whether or not you are allowed to play idealistic and positive characters or if you have to play some dark fantasy edgelords with no hope on the horizon. Honestly I would even argue if Shadowrun even asks those questions in the first place. It's a rather, let's say unfavorable look into a futuristic world that has fantasy elements in it, with this pessimistic (meaning a fundamental change into something inherently positive seems unlikely) touch woven into it, but we are talking about a huge sci-fi fantasy world that never only has one or two properties, but offers a plethora of various views and options. This includes pessimistic and depressive characters that never leave their home and only do a quick run to eat and maybe have fun killing someone, as well as revolutionary heroes that want to change the world in its fundamental properties for the better with clear morale guidelines in how they do so. As I said before, I'd say that the game doesn't favor characters that do the latter, as the game isn't really about that in its core, but it also doesn't punish it, as it opens up the possibility in a deeply divided world. The setting allows both to exist and doesn't pick favorites, which means maintaining the, for many characters, negative status quo, staying in the "punk-y" (as in: rebelling against it) world of Shadowrunners, who stay outside of the system and society at large and keep on shooting against it - for whatever reason. A complex society, even a fictional one, can never be boiled down to "Yeah, it's poo poo" or "Yeah, it's amazingly perfect", there are always winners and losers, rich and poor, people that are somewhat satisfied with what is and those who aren't, no matter their situation. The nice and cool thing for Shadowrun in general is that it embodies both and offers enough depth and complexity to show either, offering the players to make up their mind in what they prefer and how or if they want to assess this world. What the players of this game make out of this is up to them.
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Apr 22, 2019 15:26
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jakodee posted:Literally nothing you’ve said here even remotely reflects any of the conversation that has been had. You asserted that everyone else was only talking about strawman utopia/dystopia dichotomies while you were the only one bringing the idea up, and then unironically repeated the idea tha Shadowrun is Always Bad Always and that we should embrace this as “Depth” like a 13 year old making their first creative writing assignment. Okay, the first sentence was blatant polemic in an internet forum, I admit that, you can entirely ignore that one, too, as the rest of my post wasn't really about it. I actually wasn't trying to argue against what you guys said, but how it works in conjunction with each other and I actually believe that I was more nuanced than Everything Sucks Forever and that this then would make it great, actually I even mentioned twice that it was not a black and white, good and evil thing, but that it's possible to have several extremes in one fictional world and play inside of it, choosing whatever side you wish to be on. It's fair to not call this depth but rather regular business for a Pen & Paper. Claiming that everything sucks and that alone makes up depth would be quite paradoxical. However, reading some of your previous posts, I rather step back and leave this field to you.
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Apr 22, 2019 18:15
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What's the thread's opinion regarding Docwagon and similar services? Good investment that saves asses or waste of money, with the risk of falling into huge debt when their men die? Any of you or your players ever bothered to take some with them?
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Apr 30, 2019 11:01
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Oh, I am the GM actually. My players never bothered to look into them, but one of them is doing so now. Since I honestly in many years of playing I never had to look into how to portray them, if it happens, I'm curious what your experiences with them are, whether or not you'd recommend it to your players and how it should be played out in your opinion.
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Apr 30, 2019 14:02
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Oh my God those bastards, I just filled up with more 5e books. At least we can get a new nice edition with a lot of new features and a general fix for all the 5e problems, that will not be confusing at all. I'm pumped. And seriously scared.
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May 1, 2019 11:31
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Liquid Communism posted:It's CGL. Not beign able to get out of their own way long enough to advertise their poo poo is 100% to style. lmao I have full confidence in them printing and distributing a book with hundreds of pages and revamped rules everywhere, given they can't even announce something properly. I'm actuary really hyped for a lot of those changes, but then, it's Catalyst. Christ.
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May 1, 2019 11:47
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Apparently none of Catalyst's business partners knew about this so far, or at least not the time and content of the announcement via YouTube and Discord pings, so that's already promising. A Pegasus guy on the German forum even said they want to wait until Catalyst updates their website before they comment on this, which might take a few years, as they don't have the habit of updating their website regularly. Complex Action and his buddies are going to have a wild Q&A along with some CGL person, what I've read so far I see a lot of people have grave concerns about this development and there might be some evil questions coming up, that will surely lead to the CGL person to answer them honestly and bring back safety and assurance to the fan community of Shadowrun. Well, or he just mutes them all again. So exciting!
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May 1, 2019 13:30
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Liquid Communism posted:Hopefully that CGL 'person' is Hardy and not one of the freelancers who's there to get thrown under the bus. It is Hardy, yes. Hence my concern regarding the muting of critical questions. Bobby however. as he's hosting it, was very responsive towards asking and answering questions on discord this morning, including specifically saying that he will not allow critical questions being washed away, as he also has concerns himself that he'd like to see somewhat addressed. Here's the one hour talk with Bobby and a few others talking about the news: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcR4iQWQcCE Also the arcology podcast around Mr Johnson took their bite on this: https://arcologypodcast.shadowcasters.network/ Zephirum posted:If 6e is slated to drop around August per Bobby, I certainly hope they'll have worked on it for more than three months! I think it was a freelancer who said that they worked on this for two years now, as they wanted to avoid the issues regarding rushing out 5E here. Given that at least Pegasus said they were surprised by the announcement through social media and that it happens now, or in general, but not about the content in itself, at least they knew that a new edition was coming and hopefully details shared here and there, so that we can have an idea of them working on this for longer than between today and August. However, you know, it's Catalyst. Solid chance some of their co-workers were surprised by this development, too. wiegieman posted:Does anyone at Catalyst realize that they really need to land this one or they'll lose a bunch of money and with it the brand? Probably. There were rumors about some big companies going fishing again for the rights on Shadowrun. While this isn't news, them releasing another edition more or less on schedule on their usual 5-6 years setup at least shows that they have an interest in keeping the brand going and since Shadowrun has a quite enthusiastic community and a market value worth mentioning, they must know that stuff is on the line here, as it always is. I'd say there's no chance in them not realizing how disgruntled parts of the fanbase is by them doing crappy work, buuuuuuut, you know. CGL.
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May 1, 2019 16:57
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PST posted:Pegasus Spiele have posted that their licensed version will be out for Essen this year Ah cool, completely missed that. Very much gonna buy this and have some Schadenfreude against people depending on CGL.
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May 1, 2019 17:07
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Liquid Communism posted:War! came out before 5e. That part of the fanbase has been disgruntled for ~8 years now, and many of them have just hosed off to other pursuits and won't come back so long as CGL has the rights. That's true. I just try to maintain some hope that Catalyst is able to see what they are doing and maybe have an idea on how to fix things at some point. It appears to be largely irrational though. Also, War! was a great book!
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May 1, 2019 17:25
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Couldn't really expect this, right? I'm already glad there was a Q&A in the first place. Skeptical about the changes and scared they will gently caress it up again as usual though.
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May 2, 2019 10:43
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Yeah if they are unironically going with "yeah we won't rule this, but you just shouldn't cheat" this is going to be less a streamline or an elegant way of reducing bulky rules, but instead just them being lazy and not doing proper game testing. If any at all at this point.
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May 3, 2019 00:15
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It was a thing that came in discussions before already and I am really confused why they do it. Okay, this entire edge thing is whatever, fine, also the damage and net hits etc. work, but why armor shouldn't have any direct impact onto soak is beyond me. Even in this new system it wouldn't break much to have armor at least partially in the calculation. Only using it for this weird score so that you, at best, can use the edge you gain to counter the damage that comes in, seems unnecessarily strange and complicated. A good example of what I heard what this may cause is that a fully body armored elf with a riot shield and helmet tanks a lot less damage than a naked troll.
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May 3, 2019 11:51
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Gort posted:Let me get this straight, this is the way armour works in 6e: It's pretty much this, yes. It's one of the biggest problems I see with 6E right now, as it makes tanking de facto impossible for anyone who doesn't stack up Body, which already limits tanks to certain races. If the armor values in themselves are untouched from 5E, this means that neither helmets, nor shield have any direct effect to the damage value you take and even a Red Samurai with 0.01 Edge probably tanks about as much as a buffed naked troll, as nothing else but the Body value itself matters. The edge the armored person gains may be used to counter a dice, or even heal a box of damage, but what's that compared to the damage value most weapons do? If you take 6 physical damage, which is entirely normal, you can maybe heal up one box and that's it.
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May 3, 2019 13:26
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