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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:So is this game actually available? I could find a link to buy the PDF in spite of the Catalyst website screaming PREORDER THIS NOW! The PDF is available, try DriveThroughRPG. The physical book should be available for purchase this month.
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Aug 5, 2013 22:27
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ProfessorCirno posted:I'll have a bigger post to come later but I think I found why a lot of people in Dumpshock or the Shadowrun forums are whinging about adepts being superpowered and sammies being superweak. Namely they're loving stupid and ignore the actual rules. I don't know about weak, though in long-term games Adepts should pretty much always be "more powerful" since they have no limit on their Magic Rating/power points and can install ware to do the same things that Sams can. They can also start with Improved Reflexes 3 while Sams can not have more than +2D6, they can directly raise skills (IMO the point of Adepts) in a way that Sams do not have access to, and Combat Sense is an incredibly useful power that there is no cyber version of, among many other things. The new combat rules also don't help a class of character that previously was known for taking advantage of using multiple attacks per phase as a strength. That's not to say that Sams aren't useful because they certainly are, but the increased costs for most of the useful ware kicks them in the balls in a way Adepts do not have to deal with. Now, they do have a major advantage in the sense that they can get a bunch of limbs and stuff armor into them or do other essence unfriendly tasks, but IMO the cyber in the corebook is severely lacking options that previously made Sams really good and hinder their effectiveness until the splatbooks are released. For example, it used to be a great idea to get a cyberarm and cram a bunch of useful accessories into it but there aren't a lot of cyberware in the core book that use capacity, and some things that used to have capacity ratings no longer do. Additionally, the rules are vague on how some cyber/bio interact with each other and I expect nerfs to come when the eratta and/or ware book are released. Of course my view is skewed since I prefer magical characters especially in this edition, and you can make some very good sams, but the variety just isn't there. Every sam build I've seen has some combination of multiple cyberlimbs + bone lacing which is fine but that would have been sacrilege in SR4, so I think a lot of people are just getting uses to how things work now.
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Aug 6, 2013 12:57
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Used bioware needs an eratta badly - I refuse to believe you can install someone else's Bone Density, for example, and all cultured bioware is made specifically for you so there should be no Used option.
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Aug 6, 2013 14:21
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In fact, bone density should probably be cultured bioware. I also question how Bone Lacing can be Used grade, or how it can be removed/upgraded. It seems kind of permanent.
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Aug 6, 2013 15:28
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Used is it's own category now. In the past, you could get Used standard or Alpha grade, but that has been changed to only standard. Even if the cyber you buy and install had previously been Delta in someone else, it counts as Used standard for you since it was made specifically for them.
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Aug 7, 2013 11:37
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Bull (the SR Missions coordinator) released a Missions eratta that is recognized as official until the real eratta is approved by Catalyst: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12034805/SRM5%20Hot%20Patch%20Errata%20v1.0.pdf It's just a quick fix, but should lay some groundwork for things that were omitted from the rules (like Background Count). Bigass Moth fucked around with this message at 14:50 on Aug 7, 2013 |
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Aug 7, 2013 14:47
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You sure can, PG 129: Skill groups are a collection of skills (usually three, but sometimes four) based around a core concept. For example, the Outdoors skill group brings together Navigation, Survival, and Tracking, all the sort of skills an outdoorsman would have. You can purchase a skill group for less than it costs to take the three skills individually. Having a skill group at a certain rating is the same as having the three skills in the skill group at that rating. For example, if you’ve got Outdoors 5 and you’re trying to track a basilisk through the forests of the Salish-Shidhe Council, you’d roll as though you had Tracking 5 because it’s part of the Outdoors skill group. Skill group advancement uses special rules. If you want to advance one skill from the group without advancing the rest, the skill group is broken and and you get each of the skills in the group at the former group rating; then you can increase one of the skills. If you want to get the skill group back (or get a new one), you must first get all of the skills in the group to the same rating. For more detailed information, see Character Advancement, p. 103.
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Aug 7, 2013 17:38
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Right. Aside from Stealth and MAYBE Influence the skill groups suck anyway so it shouldn't really be a big deal.
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Aug 7, 2013 18:02
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children overboard posted:I think I'm ready to start a 5e PBP. I know in the first printing there are little mistakes here and there, but are there any really bad editing goofs that are in need of a desperate fix before it's playable? Riggers aren't playable right now since the vehicle mod rules aren't out. Drones are incredibly weak and vehicle combat/stat rules are all over the place (the Eurocar Westwind apparently drives at about the speed of sound for example). They would need heavy houseruling to even be a viable choice, which is pretty sad.
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Aug 8, 2013 12:20
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Gobbeldygook posted:Where are the writer's posting these days? At a glance, dumpshock gets a lot more traffic. Dumpshock is a more popular board than the SR4.com forums. Some writers/devs are pretty frequent posters, but a lot have more or less disappeared since the release of SR5 since they don't want to (or can't) deal with the bitching. Martello posted:So far I've seen nothing to convince me that 5th ed is in any way an improvement from 4th. I think after the eratta and splatbooks are released it will be a superior edition since there was a lot of positive streamlining, but it will probably be 1-2 years before we reach that point.
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Aug 8, 2013 20:21
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SR4 background count was a killer. It directly reduced your magic rating by the background count rating while you were in it. In this edition you just get a dice pool mod which isn't so bad.
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Aug 9, 2013 11:25
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dirtycajun posted:In the new missions game the base background count for the Chicago Containment Zone (CZ) is 2. Life is gonna suck for adepts inside the cz. Life sucks for anyone inside the CZ but since Bug City was nearly 20 years ago I think most people there probably chose to be by this point.
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Aug 9, 2013 13:32
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I'd love to play a 5e professionals game if anyone else wants to run one. Children has like 50 people wanting to play.
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Aug 11, 2013 15:10
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Martello posted:If you run one, I'll buy the 5th ed PDF and play. You've seen my posts and should know I don't have the patience to plan out a whole story and put it down in writing. It's hard enough to write for one character in a group let alone set the whole world into being. 
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Aug 11, 2013 15:58
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CNN Sports Ticker posted:Mechanically, how do I handle a bite attack? Specifically a bite attack from a troll with metal capped and sharpened teeth? It's the same as an unarmed attack, but if you are an rear end in a top hat GM you might require the character to use an exotic skill or otherwise default. Probably reduce Reach to -1 penalty.
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Aug 14, 2013 03:03
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There would probably be wards at major security checkpoints and one mage doing astral security for the entire airport. That mage would also be one of the highest paid people working there.
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Aug 15, 2013 11:32
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Not hard, Attributes A, Skills B race C, Resources D.
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Aug 15, 2013 20:08
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PierreTheMime posted:Or you could just use an injection round (p.434) in a dart pistol (p.429) and achieve the same effect by scoring three net hits against a target using your heavy pistol skill, which means you can stun-out someone with 37+ dice pretty easily. It seems like such an oversight, but apparently so long as you get a decent number of hits you can get that needle in a weak joint or something. Sadly (and stupidly) the dart guns require Exotic Ranged Weapon skills. But tasers don't? They really should eliminate the exotic skills.
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Aug 15, 2013 21:23
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The downside is that you are lugging around a crossbow which isn't exactly discrete. Wouldn't you be better off with a Light Pistol with SnS or Gel rounds?
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Aug 15, 2013 21:58
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ProfessorCirno posted:Er, my main question regarding Mr Lucky was how well it works out. But it sounds like it can work out really drat well! I'd probably go Attributes A, Skills B, rather then vice versa, but overall it sounds like you can make a perfectly normal human guy with no magic and little to no augmentation, and just the biggest guts you can find, who pulls off unbelievable poo poo because he just happens to be that good and that lucky. How well it works is up to your character build, but it's important to note that Edge is STUPIDLY powerful in this edition. Using Seize the Initiative or Blitz on any combat removes the need to IP boosting ware, and lets you do fun stuff like take cover immediately or check status destroying grenades at the threat. Push The Limit lets you add your Edge (Mr Lucky would have 7 or 8) to a roll BEFORE or AFTER which is insane and also removes limits AND gives you exploding 6s. Obviously Mr. Lucky would be better with ware/magic but a mundane can absolutely do it in this edition.
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Aug 16, 2013 11:28
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ProfessorCirno posted:The two caveats I see are that both Seize the Initiative and Blitz only work for one combat turn rather then the entire fight, and that if you Push The Limit after you roll, the exploding 6's are only for the Edge dice. That said, Edge is overall extremely good in SR5, far more then SR4, and I like that the recharge bit encourage you to actually play as someone with more luck then sense. With 7 or 8 initiative you can use edge every round if you need to, but if you throw a Pepper Punch grenade in your first action there probably won't be a second combat round.
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Aug 16, 2013 12:30
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Piell posted:
This is correct, and it makes me question why I should ever take Longarms or Pistols since Automatics can do it all so easily. For instance, your non-combat Single Action can be Take Aim, which increases your combat DP or adds +1 to Accuracy.
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Aug 17, 2013 12:48
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I might like longarms more once the weapon mod rules come out because having only the T-250 as "concealable" really sucks but maybe they will have a pistol grip mod to help it. As it stands, you're carrying around a full-sized shotgun with a shortened barrel and giant shoulder stock. Not exactly discrete. Machine Pistols, specifically the Steyr, are as good as or better than any regular pistol except a few heavy pistols and the only difference there is -1 AP and maybe +1 DMG (ok, the Warhawk is "better" at 9P -2AP but it is also single shot only. The Steyr can fire full auto with APDS at 7P -14AP.) BF/FA is really good if you use it correctly, and there is pretty much zero point in ever firing in SS or SA modes unless it's all you have. BF is a -2 AP on top of whatever the gun already has and is trivially easy to negate with a Gas Vent 3. In fact the Machine Pistols are so good I don't see any reason to ever use SMGs over them - other than occasionally an Ingram with the magical Suppressor/Gas Vent combo, or the Forbidden Praetor, but why use those when ARs are better across the board? MPs only problem is a lack of recoil comp (the best is +4, a Ceska with gas vent 3 and the folding stock) and Accuracy, but Accuracy limit is really easy to get around. I suppose using Light Pistol ranges kind of sucks, but it's not much worse than Heavy Pistol and closing distance is really easy to do if needed. Of course this is all my opinion only but the lack of balance between the weapon categories is really poor. Bigass Moth fucked around with this message at 15:57 on Aug 17, 2013 |
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Aug 17, 2013 15:54
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He's right that wireless guns are pointless. That's why you can buy any gun as a Throwback for no extra cost.
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Aug 18, 2013 13:35
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Piell posted:This stupid paranoia over DECKERS HACKING MY GUNZ is hilarious to me, because in the two or three turns it would take a decker to turn off your gun (once you have a good commlink to slave it to) is not really a threat when he could just be shooting you. A wireless smartgun gives +2 dice to hit and a couple other minor benefits, it is definitely useful. Hacking a gun during combat isn't a great idea, but doing it while the enemy doesn't know you're there is the real key to effective hacking.
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Aug 18, 2013 13:50
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Actioneer Business Clothes: 8 armor, 1500Y Armored Clothing: 6 armor, 475Y Armor Vest: 9 armor, 500Y In 99% of cases everyone will wear an Armored Jacket: 12 armor, 1000Y. However when it's not socially acceptable look at the choices above and tell me why you'd choose anything other than the Vest if discretion is necessary? You can always buy non-armored suits, so the Actioneer clothing is pretty pointless, and armored clothing is somehow worse than a vest, which by the rules is: "Armor vest: This modern flexible-wrap vest is designed to be worn under regular clothing without displaying any bulk. A popular and cost-effective option." Removing B/I ratings really just made three armor choices: Armored Jacket for almost everyone, Armored Vest for discretion, Full Body Armor for merc campaigns. Even the Lined Coat isn't a real option anymore unless you need to conceal your Gibson or whatever. It should also be noted that an Armored Jacket is availability 2, so you can almost literally buy it from a street corner without any trouble.
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Aug 19, 2013 22:19
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Brannock posted:Page 449, respirators. Rating 1 is 50 nuyen; rating 6 is 300 nuyen. Going up in rating doesn't affect availability (as far as I can tell) and 300 ny is pretty cheap. Is there a reason a character would ever opt to get a Rating 1-5 respirator if they wanted a respirator? Aside from cost, no. Gas masks are better though, since they block all inhalation vector toxins while respirators only add their rating to the defense test. Internal Air Tank is king - level 1 lets you not breathe for an hour, and most gasses are dissipated in a matter of seconds.
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Aug 20, 2013 03:18
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dirtycajun posted:I made a character that has massive growth potential via nuyen and karma (initiate for quickening as fast as possible!) that should also be an absolute blast to play. Sink everything you have into initiating, then quickening, and as many skills at 3-4 karma wise. How do you intend to sustain all those spells? Increase attribute requires a force equal to the attribute you are modifying, so that makes the sustaining foci higher force than you'd probably like. Otherwise, sustaining multiple spells quickly add higher and higher penalties to all actions. If you plan on keeping them all up with Quickening, I would hate to see what happens when you encounter your first ward, or any Dual Natured person/critter/spirit who felt like giving you a bad day. By the way this explains a lot: https://twitter.com/RussellZee/status/368889317885636608/photo/1 Bigass Moth fucked around with this message at 14:50 on Aug 21, 2013 |
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Aug 21, 2013 13:19
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Crossbows and bows are really expensive to use, the ammo is rather pricy, the Archery skill is needed and otherwise useless, and all the talk of injection bolts/arrows also requires purchasing the toxin. Not to mention if you hit someone with a 10P -3 heavy bolt and then inject then with Narcoject at 15S they will probably die, but you would be better off firing your Ares Alpha with APDS at 11P -6 using the versatile Automatics skill and with the option of full auto at an additional -9 defense dice.
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Aug 22, 2013 22:51
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If you don't want enchanted bullets don't allow them in your game. Some of the devs have said they will be errated out, and AFAIK they have been in Missions and that's about as good of an official word we're going to get until Catalyst gets off their rear end and actually fixes their problems. My stance about the bow/crossbow issue is that they are pretty powerful but aside from literally 4 options in the book the Archery skill is useless. Basically every other combat skill aside from Exotics have superior options. You can take a Ruger Super Warhawk and give it explosive ammo and you've got the exact same damage output as a Heavy Crossbow but with more capacity. As for APDS being inferior to explosive, that was the case in SR4 but I'm not so sure now that every sam is packing 20-30 armor on the low end.
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Aug 23, 2013 01:14
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The 4 cyberlimbs deal is what I was referring to with the high armor count. You don't even need the limbs by the RAW, just hands and feet with armor crammed in. It's cheesy as hell but technically legit according to the rules, and you can stack Bone Lacing, Orthoskin, etc. on top of it because there are currently no rules for how bioware operates when implanted in a body with cyberlimbs. Huge soak pools are currently what sams can excel at out of the gate since Adepts have them beat on nearly every other useful combat role.
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Aug 23, 2013 11:26
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ProfessorCirno posted:Still have yet to be convinced of this super adept I've seen mentioned by two or three people. Still have yet to see what adepts have that's so super duper overpowered. Well I feel the same way about sams. A choice of what adepts can do: 1. Adrenaline Boost is a great power - .25PP per level for +2 to Iniative each round resisted by (level)drain. This can easily get you to the humps of guaranteed 11, 16, etc. useful for multiple passes and interrupt actions. It's also a free action. 2. Attribute Boost is also good - .25PP per level for a magic+rating test to add to an attribute, resisted by (level)drain. With 6 magic and level 1 Attribute Boost you will on average score 2 hits as a simple action. 3. Combat Sense - Level 1 lets you ALWAYS make a perception test when entering a surprise scenario. That's good enough alone, but it also adds directly to the dodge pool at a point per level. 4. Spell Resistance - One of the few options to directly increase your magic resistance if you don't have Counterspelling skill (and chances are you don't unless you went Mystic Adept). 5. Kinesics - nerfed but still useful, adds die to resist social tests . Situational to be sure, but still good for a face adept. 6. Improved Ability - Adept bread and butter, directly add die to a skill of choice. Depending on your belief this is either a great ability or overpriced. 7. Improved Physical Attribute - I personally think this costs too much, but you can't deny it is the only way to raise Body by +4 and it lets you start with maxed Agility, Reaction (don't choose Reaction) and/or Strength if you want to invest in it (I would wait until Geasa are available). 8. Enhanced Accuracy - at .25PP it adds +1 to Weapon Limit. Useful for less accurate guns, but it depends on what you want to use. 9. Improved Reflexes - No doubt you can start with +3D6 +3 Reaction with this which is the best you can do at chargen. I personally think that is it overpriced since you can reliably hit 10-11 base Initiative without any boosters, and Adrenaline Boost is so cheap and easy to resist drain. Regardless, if you highly value multiple passes this is worth it, and the fact that it basically amounts to Improved Reaction with an additional D6 for each level at a total cost of +.5PP more than Improved Reaction 3 would cost is pretty nice. Some of the other powers are useful, most are not. This is stuff you can do that no sam can at character generation and in some cases ever. All I've seen Sams have advantage in is cyberlimb armor stacking. Remember that adepts can also get implants to mod their stats/abilities so aside from reducing essence to insane levels there really ins't much a sam can do that an adept can't. It's been this way for 10 years and they really didn't change anything in this edition except loving over sams by increasing the cost of most useful implants but not increasing starting nuyen proportionally. Nothing I've said is "right" or "wrong," you can play however you want but I'm pointing out how adepts do excel vs. sams in this edition.
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Aug 23, 2013 12:50
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ProfessorCirno posted:Adept stuff I quite literally laid out exactly what adepts are good at and what the useful powers are. You can do some really good stuff with the right attribute layout and powers. You of course minimize it to BUT THEY NEED TO SPEND ALL THEIR KARMA ON MAGIC - well duh they are magical. That karma spent on intiation can go a lot further than the sam spending 14 karma to raise his skill from 6 to 7. Even at 6 PP I tend to run out of things to want unless Increased Reflexes are in my plan, but that's just me. As for priorities, how about this: Attributes A Skills E The rest whatever You can do quite a bit with that layout depending on what you want your starting Magic to be (and believe it or not a Magic of 1 can be quite useful with the right powers and implants if you choose to go that route.) Attributes are of course the most important part of any character since they directly augment all skills, limits, and other factors like overflow boxes and resistances. Starting bonus karma is really useful for buying up dump stats from 1 to 2 or 3, and buying level 1 skills, which is plenty for nearly every situation except for your primary focus (which you have 18 points from Skills E to distribute). Whether you think dumpstats are necessary or not we can argue about until the cows come home, but forgive me for wanting to get the most out of the restrictions of character generation. This isn't rocket science, it's just numbers.
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Aug 23, 2013 15:27
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ProfessorCirno posted:Let me see if I understand this correctly: Yes...? Do you really need a bunch of 6s? With good attributes even having 1 in the skill so you don't have to default can be plenty. 18 points is three 6s or some combination of that and specializations, so Automatics, Perception and Gymnastics for example (or whatever you desire your primary focus to be). Fill the rest of your needs with 1s unless you need to be the Best Ever at everything in your field which for the most part you don't since Shadowrunners tend to work in teams. Of course trying to explain this stuff to you can be like writing to a brick wall. I'd love to see your concepts for sams and adepts that are 1. uniquely useful in their own ways and 2. don't exploit loopholes like cyberarmor and sustained spells. Please show me why sams are so much better to help me understand, or even show me literally one thing a sam can do that an adept can not if he is willing to lose some magic points. I could break down efficiency of essence vs. magic in terms of what ware to install for adepts if you make resources a priority above E, but I sadly don't have the time right now and you'd just ignore it anyway.
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Aug 23, 2013 16:32
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ProfessorCirno posted:Again, your perfect awesome character who is the best at Shadowrun and the pinnacle of all thigns Shadowrun is "a walking gun, like you know in the original Transformers when Megatron would just turn into a gun and it was pointless because a gun has no actual character? That, but I have legs." First of all I don't understand why you're so antagonistic, this is just a discussion and I make it clear that my views are only opinion and neither right or wrong. However you keep needling me and saying I'm sperging out for discussing the rules of a fictional game...? Secondly, nobody except the two of us cares about this so I'll keep it brief: I checked out your character and have the following thoughts: 1. 26 attribute points, so I guess you bought up a dump stat which you blasted me for suggesting previously. 2. Skills a couple 6s and then a ton of 1s (i.e. a very narrow focus combat monster), you know, the exact same thing you said I was sperging out for suggesting. 3. Cheesy as hell Negative Qualities (Weak Immune System, mild addiction to drugs, Bad Rep). 4. My point was asking if you could make a sam that can do something an adept can't, and you didn't show me that. I'm in no way saying your character is bad because I think it's perfectly fine and the story is good, but your hypocrisy is ridiculous even by goon standards. Bigass Moth fucked around with this message at 19:29 on Aug 23, 2013 |
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Aug 23, 2013 19:27
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Cabbit posted:Why are those negative qualities cheesy as hell? Mild drug addiction - only happens once a month, should never affect business. Negative side effects are minimal anyway. Bad Rep - 3 points of Notoriety, very little actual game balance issues related to that. Also who cares if you have a bad rep, you're a criminal. Notoriety actually has no penalty unless a GM enforces it by their own choice. Weak Immune System - Increase Disease Power by +2. There are currently no Disease rules.
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Aug 23, 2013 19:35
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Having low dumpstats is fine if it's the character you want, like someone said nobody is going to question the mage or technomancer with 1 strength, or the dumbass troll with 1 Logic and 1 Charisma but who can punch through a tank. Hell, in 2E Otaku got a bonus to their mental stats if they took all Physical attributes at 1! There is almost no benefit to take Charisma at 2 instead of 1 if you are not going to be doing the talking for your group. I personally would not take an attribute at 1, but if someone else wanted to I wouldn't hold it against them. The priority system encourages dumpstatting, and that's a mistake on Catalyst's part. As for the guys who questioned the cheesiness of the negative qualities earlier - you can take whatever qualities you feel fit your character but mechanically if they have no real negatives I believe it's fair to question their game balance.
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Aug 23, 2013 20:57
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For your first character it's probably a good idea to not do a crazy idea like an illusionist mage or drone rigger. Stick with "guy with gun" until you know how the game works, otherwise your team will hate you because you'll be bogging the game down with too many "let me check the book, I have no idea how to do this" moments.
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Aug 23, 2013 21:59
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You can't fit 9 agility and 3 armor in a cyberhand though, sadly.
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Aug 24, 2013 00:47
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The whole point of this dumpstat conversation is that an attribute of 1 does not make you a blitering retard - that is what an attribute of 0 does. The only way I am aware of earning a zero in a stat is by having it reduced by a Decrease Attribute spell, and in that case your character will either stand there blankly or fall into a heap. You can also burn Edge to get a zero score but that's not related exactly. If the developers intended to have a stat of 1 make your character socially toxic, unable to read, can't tie their own shoes, then they would have spelled it out in the rules. As it stands, a 1 just means you are untrained in that area. At least in SR4, the human average was straight 2s - not exactly Einstein compared to the guy with 1s and still as likely to fail die rolls since each die only has a 1/3 chance of hitting. The solution would have been to have all stats start at 2 and raise from there, but that's not how Shadowrun works. ProfessorCirno, I'm addressing you directly - please stop with the personal attacks and when someone gives you an answer accept it. I woke up to 100 new posts in this thread overnight and many of them were of you willingly ignoring what everyone else is saying until you got the answer you wanted. Maybe you should take a break. By the way, I do have one character - check Martello's Rotten Apple thread. I don't play in any SR5 games at the moment, but will be sure to avoid joining any groups you are a part of because I really don't need to get an instruction on The Right Way to play the game from someone who can't seem to figure out what point they're trying to make. It's just a fantasy game on the internet, man.
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Aug 24, 2013 12:47
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