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you're forgetting "soulslike"
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Apr 25, 2024 21:14
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King of Solomon posted:Have you played Dead Cells on five boss stem cell mode? Or even in 2 cells mode. I don't think there is possible 'brainless' build at that difficulty. Things hit too hard, and bosses have protections against glass cannon builds. -- One thing I like from Astral Ascent is that the final boss is cool, being a spectacle fight with several attack patterns and all that... but it's actually not harder than any normal mid-boss, so it isn't a game with a huge difficulty spike just at the end.
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Apr 25, 2024 21:18
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Turin Turambar posted:One thing I like from Astral Ascent is that the final boss is cool, being a spectacle fight with several attack patterns and all that... but it's actually not harder than any normal mid-boss, so it isn't a game with a huge difficulty spike just at the end. This is honestly the way to do it, IMO. Bosses should be dramatic / vibes-forward, moreso than they should be tests of your skill. The rest of the game is the skill test, the boss is the emotional climax. That doesn't mean they should be easy, moreso that it's not remotely important that they be the hardest thing in the game.
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Apr 25, 2024 21:35
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:This is honestly the way to do it, IMO. Bosses should be dramatic / vibes-forward, moreso than they should be tests of your skill. The rest of the game is the skill test, the boss is the emotional climax. That doesn't mean they should be easy, moreso that it's not remotely important that they be the hardest thing in the game. Imagine a giant button 5 feet in diameter labeled "DISAGREE" and I have taken a running start to jump into it full force
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Apr 25, 2024 21:43
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I think I am still coming down from the dopamine high of the devil hand fight in God Hand several years later
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Apr 25, 2024 21:44
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:This is honestly the way to do it, IMO. Bosses should be dramatic / vibes-forward, moreso than they should be tests of your skill. The rest of the game is the skill test, the boss is the emotional climax. That doesn't mean they should be easy, moreso that it's not remotely important that they be the hardest thing in the game. It depends on the game, I think. Most roguelike action games try hard to have a compelling experience when the player is fighting regular enemies, so if the enemies are too easy in comparison to the bosses, the game suffers. When I made a difficulty rebalance mod for One Step From Eden, I made the bosses slightly easier but the normal encounters more difficult.
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Apr 25, 2024 21:47
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:This is honestly the way to do it, IMO. Bosses should be dramatic / vibes-forward, moreso than they should be tests of your skill. The rest of the game is the skill test, the boss is the emotional climax. That doesn't mean they should be easy, moreso that it's not remotely important that they be the hardest thing in the game. Disagree, they should be both
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Apr 25, 2024 21:50
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List amazing bosses in turn based roguelikes
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Apr 25, 2024 22:02
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Oh, NOW roguelikes are turn based
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Apr 25, 2024 22:05
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So the problem with the bosses being the hardest part of the game is that bosses are generally where you shake up your formula. They can have gimmicks that, if given to regular enemies, would outstay their welcome, but are OK because the boss is a one-off. This is valuable for introducing variety, but it can also easily end up being a run-killer. How many roguelikes have you played where you were perfectly capable of handling the regular game, then you got a "bad boss" that hard-countered your build and there was nothing you could do about it? It doesn't happen in every game, but it's sure not uncommon either. (and yeah, I should clarify that I was talking about bosses in roguelikes, God Hand can keep its tough final boss because if you lose, you just reload from a save point and try again, maybe after changing your loadout)
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Apr 25, 2024 22:07
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:So the problem with the bosses being the hardest part of the game is that bosses are generally where you shake up your formula. They can have gimmicks that, if given to regular enemies, would outstay their welcome, but are OK because the boss is a one-off. This is valuable for introducing variety, but it can also easily end up being a run-killer. How many roguelikes have you played where you were perfectly capable of handling the regular game, then you got a "bad boss" that hard-countered your build and there was nothing you could do about it? It doesn't happen in every game, but it's sure not uncommon either. I would say that part of the point of roguelikes is making builds that can handle those situations. A strong build isn't one that is strong only in optimal conditions and if you get hard-blocked by a boss with a specific gimmick it usually means you invested too heavily in one specific path instead of finding ways to cover for your weaknesses. If you die and lose, well, that's roguelikes. A major resource in roguelikes is information and how you use that information, and running into something that hard counters your build means you know next time you need to be wary of that situation.
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Apr 25, 2024 22:11
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victrix posted:List amazing bosses in turn based roguelikes The Heart. I think several of the bosses in Inkbound are really cool, especially the tentacle one. Lots of spacing and targeting decisions. I have really fond memories of finally defeating the water dragon in ADoM. Super cool environment, great challenge. The shopkeeper in Cobalt Core is hilarious. Inscryption has some absolute bangers that I won't go into for spoiler reasons.
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Apr 25, 2024 22:14
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DarkDobe posted:Noita sustains me in this regard: Every few runs I stumble across something 'game breaking' and then inevitably hoist myself by my own petard. 
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Apr 25, 2024 22:20
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:So the problem with the bosses being the hardest part of the game is that bosses are generally where you shake up your formula. They can have gimmicks that, if given to regular enemies, would outstay their welcome, but are OK because the boss is a one-off. This is valuable for introducing variety, but it can also easily end up being a run-killer. How many roguelikes have you played where you were perfectly capable of handling the regular game, then you got a "bad boss" that hard-countered your build and there was nothing you could do about it? It doesn't happen in every game, but it's sure not uncommon either. I feel like what you are talking about, the "bad boss", Is a deterrent from going too narrow with your build. That's the sensation I get from something like Balatro, where yes, maybe it does threaten my ability to keep a run going If all diamond cards are debuffed, but that's a lesson in investing in diverse ways of pumping up your score so that you're not dead in the water when one of your tools are taken away. This could just be a difference of opinion that can't be resolved though, because it annoys me so badly when I get into a particular rhythm with the normal enemies in a game, and then the boss is something different for the sake of variety that I have not been practicing.
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Apr 25, 2024 22:27
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victrix posted:List amazing bosses in turn based roguelikes Glenwald in The Last Spell is pretty cool in my opinion. In general the last nights in the last spell are all cool because you can still win in situations that would otherwise be completely hopeless since killing the boss is sufficient (and you don't have to care about losses of heroes or buildings anymore).
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Apr 25, 2024 22:31
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Like especially in roguelikes, I enjoy it when a boss is something of a skill/build check which eliminates runs that were not going to go to the distance as the difficulty curve goes up. If I don't have my poo poo together by the first boss in slay the spire, then I think it's appropriate to get bounced off of it and take the new start as a mercy
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Apr 25, 2024 22:32
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Tea Party Crasher posted:Like especially in roguelikes, I enjoy it when a boss is something of a skill/build check which eliminates runs that were not going to go to the distance as the difficulty curve goes up. If I don't have my poo poo together by the first boss in slay the spire, then I think it's appropriate to get bounced off of it and take the new start as a mercy This is certainly appropriate, and I've occasionally mused that FTL would be improved by having more bosses...since as it stands, the game can let you stealth-and-run through most of it, but you can't do that in the final sector. In general, if your bosses are going to test that the player can cope with certain kinds of threats/situations, then you need some way to signpost that so that players aren't blindsided by unwinnable fights.
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Apr 25, 2024 22:35
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Tangledeep has some fantastic bosses, especially the dragons and the final boss. Excellent art and music, lots of chaotic gameplay as you run around trying to deal with adds and avoid AoEs. I have a special place in my heart for the ToME DLC's final boss, the high priest. It's the first time the game attempted multi-phase bosses and he has some neat tricks.
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Apr 25, 2024 22:38
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Diephoon posted:I got frustrated with a random team not sticking together this morning so I decided to play solo. Now that I know how things work it feels much easier solo since I don't have to worry about team cohesion and focus firing. Things just get stunned and die. Maybe Gepetto is just stupidly good for soloing and this won't hold up in higher difficulties, but I was pretty effortlessly rolling over everything by mid Act 2. I built pretty tanky since I spend a lot of time trying to melee blob with my boys. Fortunately there's an item that gives damage based on your vitality. Ravenswatch co-op is fun, but I really don't get when people say the game feels balanced towards multiplayer. In solo, it's a lot easier to manage enemies, explore the map, and tune your build due to not having to keep up with a team. Geppetto is pretty great solo, and I have cleared max difficulty with him. I'll keep ravin' (  ) about this game as long as I live. It has some of the best feeling action combat I've played, and it's unbelievably satisfying once you put together a fully functional build. People were talking about difficulty and breaking games the past few pages. At high difficulty, Ravenswatch will really keep you on your toes. Even when you start feeling overpowered, you can't be too cocky.Finally pulled off a nightmare clear with Sun Wukong after dozens of attempts. A few of those were really promising that were tragically cut short, but a lot of them were ragequits from failing to clear those early hurdles. The satisfaction of this one clear made the hours of frustration worth it. https://i.imgur.com/pNqMJEJ.mp4 https://i.imgur.com/uLkWSHO.mp4
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Apr 25, 2024 22:59
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ugh, splatted another run to the King of Many Colors that was walking through Achra that would have been a quad first win for me: Imp Baghatar Death Knight of Azhdaha
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Apr 26, 2024 04:40
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:How many roguelikes have you played where you were perfectly capable of handling the regular game, then you got a "bad boss" that hard-countered your build and there was nothing you could do about it?
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Apr 26, 2024 06:26
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LazyMaybe posted:I can literally only think of one, FTL's final boss. this kicked rear end tho. FTL was just a rising crescendo of solving problem, but then you had.. even BIG problemer?!
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Apr 26, 2024 06:27
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FTL's flagship and Dredmor's Lord Dredmor occupy the interesting seat of "the entire game is a set up to beat this boss"
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Apr 26, 2024 06:31
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Radia posted:this kicked rear end tho. FTL was just a rising crescendo of solving problem, but then you had.. even BIG problemer?! But also as I said, it's the only boss like that in a roguelike I can think of, so I'm not sure what the quoted post was getting at. Nothing like that in Crawl, or Dungeonmans. Isaac can screw you for damage but it's not like you're getting countered, the whole game just becomes slow when that happens. Nuclear Throne definitely isn't like that, everything is 'to defeat the X shoot it until it dies". etc
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Apr 26, 2024 06:37
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I guess bosses in Slay the Spire and Balatro are like that though I'm not sure how much in the genre they are.
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Apr 26, 2024 06:47
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Noita's final boss is a pretty straightforward DPS test but if you go out of your way to pick up hidden Orbs or True Knowledge throughout your run it exponentially gains HP and gets various immunities and nasty tricks and counterattacks at certain breakpoints. Basically changes from a test of how well you can play the game into how well you can break the game, which is fitting for a game about breaking the game. That exponential scaling is no joke, either. Normally the boss has about 1,200 HP. If you collect all 33 orbs required to get the secret ending it has 528,772,513,134 HP.
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Apr 26, 2024 06:53
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Radia posted:this kicked rear end tho. FTL was just a rising crescendo of solving problem, but then you had.. even BIG problemer?! yeah, I will never forget the feelings of 1) Limping to the last boss for the first time and just being completely destroyed 2) Getting past the first phase and realizing you somehow had to beat this fucker multiple times and 3) Finally getting that first win
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Apr 26, 2024 06:53
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Nethack is the only game I can tolerate a Not Another Stupid Death situation. Noita is fun with its chaos, but I just can't take it, it's too much work for too much instant death. I guess because Nethack the deaths can be quite random and absurdly amusing in that way and Noita, well, it always leaves me feeling like even if it's 99% bullshit it's still 1% entirely my own fault.
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Apr 26, 2024 08:20
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I kinda like the FTL final boss because of how it's the same every time, so runs become a matter of putting together a kit that can handle its most dangerous parts, and that kit can actually be pretty varied. Most roguelite bosses are either the same monotonous routine every time (Spelunky 2) or are surprise hard counters to the build you've been having fun with the whole run (Time Eater while using a 0-cost spam deck in StS), but FTL's boss being consistent while having multiple solutions really works for me. It's not perfect by any means, though - cloaking is so effective against every phase I feel obligated to take it every time, and as others have said the first time you fight it is an extremely rude awakening.
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Apr 26, 2024 08:59
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:So the problem with the bosses being the hardest part of the game is that bosses are generally where you shake up your formula. They can have gimmicks that, if given to regular enemies, would outstay their welcome, but are OK because the boss is a one-off. This is valuable for introducing variety, but it can also easily end up being a run-killer. How many roguelikes have you played where you were perfectly capable of handling the regular game, then you got a "bad boss" that hard-countered your build and there was nothing you could do about it? It doesn't happen in every game, but it's sure not uncommon either. honestly all i can think of is TOME. you get both the random boss-tier monsters who instantly gently caress you(every archmage run i've ever had has ended to some orange thing dual-wielding antimagic handguns) and the fact that TOME actually has optional superbosses that can one-shot characters that could sleepwalk their way through the rest of the main game.
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Apr 26, 2024 09:07
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good turn based roguelike bosses makes me think of Necrodancer and i think it points to having the *react* aspect is (an optional) key, since you do have such a limited time to figure out your turns
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Apr 26, 2024 09:23
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victrix posted:List amazing bosses in turn based roguelikes Andor Drakon in ADOM. Okay, sure, there was nothing interesting going on tactically, and the difficulty was purely in whether or not you were sufficiently prepared for the encounter (like the rest of the entire game), but the high of finally getting there and successfully taking him down in a traditional xx hours long permadeath no metaprog roguelike is still one of my most memorable gaming experiences. It wasn't purely the length/difficulty of beating the game though, because he was an optional special ending super boss, and getting a regular ending, while also satisfying, didn't have the same impact.
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Apr 26, 2024 10:00
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Man I love Path of Achra because it fulfills the niche of 'weird ARPG builds' without having to sacrifice the better part of my life grinding xp and lootfarming My last few wins was an ice elemental armor tank, a lightning katana user that destroyed everything via air slashes, a necromancer that creates explosive undead that endlessly heal via chain reaction, a cult leader that floods the screen with grass and snakes, and my personal favorite: a sentient worm colony that caused everything to die by sharing pain via psychic feedback. Since the dev did cite the hands-off Dominions/CoE as an inspiration it does make sense Path of Achra is much more focused on builds and 'choosing' your battles rather than high tactical play. 
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Apr 26, 2024 11:10
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Ftl boss is awful
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Apr 26, 2024 13:20
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credburn posted:Nethack is the only game I can tolerate a Not Another Stupid Death situation. Noita is fun with its chaos, but I just can't take it, it's too much work for too much instant death. I guess because Nethack the deaths can be quite random and absurdly amusing in that way and Noita, well, it always leaves me feeling like even if it's 99% bullshit it's still 1% entirely my own fault. I think the thing is searching out 25 HP hearts is pretty much required but it's way too time consuming to dig around for them, the randomness is a little too rough. At least wands have a bit of a glow. You end up investing a lot of time putzing around the first couple levels using less interesting wands to just die in one misclick.
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Apr 26, 2024 13:37
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IIRC there were several mods for Noita that gave it basically a lives system, i.e. you respawned at the last holy mountain you reached a limited number of times. I had a friend who played that way exclusively and enjoyed it a lot, since it meant that you didn't lose 2 hours of puttering around instantly because an ugly wand ghost appeared or something.
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Apr 26, 2024 13:42
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Goffer posted:I think the thing is searching out 25 HP hearts is pretty much required but it's way too time consuming to dig around for them, the randomness is a little too rough. At least wands have a bit of a glow. You end up investing a lot of time putzing around the first couple levels using less interesting wands to just die in one misclick. eventually you figure out the heart mage trick and then just do that to give yourself 5000 hp every run
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Apr 26, 2024 13:48
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Goffer posted:I think the thing is searching out 25 HP hearts is pretty much required but it's way too time consuming to dig around for them, the randomness is a little too rough. At least wands have a bit of a glow. You end up investing a lot of time putzing around the first couple levels using less interesting wands to just die in one misclick. They're not required, and the more time you spend searching around levels, the more opportunities you give the game to set up some bullshit that will kill you no matter how much health you have. Noita is absolutely one of those games where you have to strike a balance between speedrunning/stealthing and milking the levels for money and power.
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Apr 26, 2024 13:50
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Goffer posted:I think the thing is searching out 25 HP hearts is pretty much required but it's way too time consuming to dig around for them, the randomness is a little too rough. At least wands have a bit of a glow. You end up investing a lot of time putzing around the first couple levels using less interesting wands to just die in one misclick. Yeah don't do that, it's miserable, won't help you as much as you think, and as you say, attrition will eventually wear you down and kill you. Just explore until you get like 300 gold or so, so you can probably afford a wand in the first shop. Then beeline to Fungal Caverns to the left of the second zone get so high from binging on mushrooms you permanently transmute the nature of reality, poke around for some OP wands, avoid the scary poo poo in there. If you get a good run going you'll always have some means of going back to earlier biomes to clean up those hearts if you really feel the need edit: In my experience if I die it's like a 45% chance I died because I couldn't do enough damage to kill something quickly, and a 5% chance I died because I didn't have enough max HP. It's a 50% chance I died because I blew myself up. goferchan fucked around with this message at 13:55 on Apr 26, 2024 |
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Apr 26, 2024 13:52
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Amuys posted:Man I love Path of Achra because it fulfills the niche of 'weird ARPG builds' without having to sacrifice the better part of my life grinding xp and lootfarming Nice! How’d the flail work out? I haven’t actually gotten a build that would make use of it to pick it up yet
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Apr 26, 2024 13:58
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