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An Actual Princess posted:are there any trad-ish roguelikes that have significant character building apart from TOME? i want to put points in skills, talent trees are cool, that kind of thing. tome is rad but i've played it to gently caress and im waiting for the next update. a lot of the other roguelikes i've tried don't really have "builds" and that's no fun for me Tangledeep might meet your needs! You can pick a character class which has passive and active abilities to learn, then change class and learn new things, and combine them with abilities from your previous classes. Also you grow weapon skills, and can develop pets too (but they're a lot simpler).
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Jun 10, 2023 20:53
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parthenocarpy posted:anyone wanna see my latest solitaire screenshots? they're really interesting. its a roguelike because you get one life and its random! I'm pretty sure every roguelike involves the player's capabilities changing over the course of the run - getting stronger, getting mutated, running out of supplies, etc. The player in Solitaire doesn't gain or lose capabilities over a run. Otherwise Tetris and Minesweeper would also be roguelikes. Also, most roguelikes strive to never generate impossible worlds. Solitaire can easily deal a situation that no player can win, cheating excepted - it's intrinsic to the design of the game.
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Jun 15, 2023 16:50
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I have heard twice now that Shiren 5 is better than Tangledeep. As someone who got fed up with Shiren 1 over time and adores Tangledeep, what makes Shiren 5 better? My main gripes with Shiren 1, with the acknowledgement that it is still a rather good console RogueLike: 1. Meta-progress is obviously a dominant strategy - specifically fusing weapons and armor over multiple runs. 2. The food system is (or seems) highly luck reliant. Even in NetHack you could generally eat dead enemies. If Shiren can't find food, your skill is irrelevant. 3. Shiren himself doesn't seem to have "builds" - he's just a vessel for whatever equipment you have on hand. (Tangledeep's job system suits my palate much better.) Does Shiren 5 address these?
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Jun 18, 2023 02:54
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If metaprogress is such a great idea, why don't other games use it? Why don't we have a version of Tetris where, after you've played enough rounds, it gives you nothing but line blocks? Or a version of golf where each hole is increasingly large, eventually guaranteeing a hole-in-one? Chess, but people who've played more games get to replace some of their pawns with queens? These are obviously terrible ideas. Yet for some reason, people looked at the perfectly good formula of Rogue and its faithful descendants, and decided to add metaprogress. What is it about Roguelikes, in particular, that drives people to demand this feature? (I'm playing Shiren 5 now. I like that so many of its optional dungeons are available from the start, and are true Roguelike experiences! The story campaign is steeped in metaprogress mechanics, though - it actually ended one of my runs early because I didn't have the right story ally with me, and now I have to make a fresh run to revive him. And your "night" abilities seem to persist between runs.)
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Jun 20, 2023 21:32
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Turin Turambar posted:You nerd, almost no one did this really in the literal way you described. No one really looked at the formula of rogue and added metaprogression, because no one played Rogue in the first place (well, some did, but so few that it's basically a statistical error :P). Shiren 1, which significantly predates Rogue Legacy, did exactly this. It's very clearly inspired by NetHack - some of that game's specific mechanics are replicated - but it also added a way to grow powerful equipment over multiple runs. This game defined the Mystery Dungeon series, including its metaprogress mechanics, and inspired the gameplay of other console roguelikes too (off the top of my head: Izuna, DragonFangZ, and that one Touhou Shiren-like people were talking about earlier.) Your other points are pretty good, but in this one section you're objectively incorrect.
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Jun 21, 2023 00:09
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The thing that turned me away from Darkest Dungeon is that after a few runs, my characters would be begging me not to send them back into the dungeon - and yet, I definitely was able to send them back into the dungeon. I know it's just bits, but I felt icky all the same.
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Jul 8, 2023 02:39
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I've been thinking about a taxonomy of Roguelikes that should help us speak more clearly about this genre - or group of genres - that we love. I'd rather do this than just call things "roguelites", which basically doesn't mean anything. So here we go! True Rogues: you're alone in a dangerous, randomly-generated dungeon, moving one turn at a time (except for speed-altering mechanics), with the possibility of permadeath always looming. Less objectively, these games tend to be more dangerous up-front, and require the player to master the mechanics in early levels - while still ramping up the threat for players who survive to later floors. Rogue, Brogue, Nethack, Jupiter Hell, and DCSS all fit here. Bandlikes: inspired by Angband. Distinguished from True Rogues by the presence of one or more "towns" - places of safety that allow you to recover or improve outside of danger - with the attendant "town portal" abilities to get you there & back easily. This results, quite deliberately, in a longer "run". Also they tend to ease the player in - early floors have a lot of weak monsters designed to pad the player's early experience levels. I'd put Caves of Qud and Tangledeep (on hardcore mode) here. Mystery Dungeons: think Shiren, or basically any console Roguelike. Take the mechanics of a True Rogue, but add some degree of meta-progression which can lead to an all-but-guaranteed win over time. Outside of official Chunsoft-made Mystery Dungeon games, I'd also put Nippon Ichi's ZHP and Guided Fate Paradox here. Action Rogues: you still get random dungeons and permadeath, but now in real time! For whatever reason, these games tend to have "variety" meta-progression - you can unlock new features that don't objectively make things easier, but add more variation to future runs instead. Spelunky, Gungeon, 20XX, Streets of Rogue, and Necrodancer fit here. Coffee-break Rogues: seemed to be all the rage a while back, but I haven't heard about them recently. These are one-floor dungeons with still enemies, where figuring out the ideal way to have your character approach each encounter is the key to success. Cardlikes: focused on card-based battles, with dungeons generally (but not always) abstracted into icons for fast traversal. Slay the Spire is the most famous example, and I'm enjoying Dicey Dungeon here too. Darkest Dungeon clones: basically Darkest Dungeon and the games which clearly want to be regarded as like DD. Vambrace: Cold Soul and Warsaw come to mind, since they're in my library. Grinders: having only random dungeons, and no permadeath - or at least the ability to reload a save in case of defeat - I sometimes see these discussed in RL communities. Dragon Quest Monsters 1, Pokemon Mystery Dungeon (on its main quest anyway) and Lufia: The Legend Returns are the best examples. I'd also put Rogue Legacy here since the grinding basically obliterates any concept of loss from death. I think in some cases a game can fit multiple terms - Rogue Legacy is an Action Rogue and a Grinder, Diablo (on Hardcore mode) is a Bandlike and an Action Rogue, Tainted Grail is a DD clone and a Spirelike, and One Step From Eden is a Spirelike and an Action Rogue. Most Mystery Dungeon games have True Rogue modes or bonus dungeons outside of the main experience, too. There's a few games that I can't quite classify yet - Into the Breach and Dwarf Fortress, mainly - but there's always room for improvement. I think this could help us when presenting new games to the community. Any thoughts?
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Jul 10, 2023 17:21
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parthenocarpy posted:Can someone explain to me again how card games are roguelikes in any remote capacity? As far as I know, in every card game, there is randomization (shuffling) and you start over if you lose (just wow if you equate this this with roguelike permadeath). Shuffling a deck and starting a game over are not roguelike elements. Assuming by "card games" you mean Cardlikes, then there's the concept of character growth, approaching unknown threats, resource management (besides the deck - there's health, potions and other items, sometimes equipment too), and the critical Roguelike experience of seeing everything go sideways and still puzzling out an escape or solution using only the tools at hand.
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Jul 10, 2023 17:32
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I don't find "roguelike but with cards" to be any more unpalatable than "roguelike, but real time" or "roguelike, but you can pop out to town any time". If anything, "roguelike, but you can grind your way to an easy win over multiple runs" is the concept I find more abhorrent. But that's just me - other people are allowed to enjoy things I don't.
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Jul 10, 2023 17:46
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http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Nemelex_Xobeh
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Jul 10, 2023 18:16
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parthenocarpy posted:THERE ISN'T! Starting over is not a roguelike element! Just because a game can end and you start from scratch doesn't give that game special roguelike designation. It's why I hate it even being brought up as a reason why a game is a roguelike. Infuriating. You're simultaneously claiming that 1. Permadeath and "starting over" are the same thing 2. Permadeath is a core element of roguelikes 3. Starting over is not a roguelike element Do I understand you correctly? Because that seems self-contradictory.
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Jul 10, 2023 18:30
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parthenocarpy posted:Orange has red in it, but that doesn't make it red So then "starting over" IS a roguelike element, and your claim that it isn't one was a typo. Got it. In addition to permadeath, Cardlikes contain the following roguelike elements: - randomized dungeons - turn-based combat, allowing the player to choose the best move they have access to -- (obviously excepting One Step From Eden, which is also an Action Rogue) - Character health - Character equipment outside of the deck - Character advancement/growth - A high degree of player choice -- Often impacting events much later in the run Additionally, it's worth noting that they satisfy every high-value criteria of the Berlin Interpretation except for "grid-based" and "non-modal".
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Jul 10, 2023 18:49
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We can acknowledge that some games do have a sufficient amount of Rogue influence to be "like Rogue" and still not contain 100% of the elements, and also add other things. Spelunky and NecroDancer add real-time elements, Shiren adds meta-progression, Slay The Spire adds cards, etc. And each of these additions necessarily removes some of the criteria for being a "traditional" RL. And yet, they still have enough Rogue-ishness in them that most people can recognize the influence. That counts. (Let's be honest, it's mainly random dungeons and permadeath.)
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Jul 10, 2023 19:17
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parthenocarpy posted:I see Spelunky adding real time to a roguelike the same way as I see Slay the Spire adding turn based cards to Street Fighter. Its just 1v1 combat made turn based. The game world itself doesn't exist as something you interact with, you aren't going to destroy a wall or have ideal escape terrain or use the terrain against the enemy, its just a series of purpose built rooms where there is no tactical positioning, and you are completely restricted in all abilities by card draw. The world interaction is just one aspect of True Rogues, not the entire thing. There are plenty of FPS games and Immersive Sims that focus on environmental interaction to very high degrees. (Most notably, Red Faction from the year 2001 specifically enabled all of the actions you described here.) Come to think of it, so do Minecraft and a lot of other "survival" games. Personally, what I come to Roguelites for is the specific combination of three things: procedural generation, character building, and permadeath. I LOVE the experience of building up a character (through stats, abilities, equipment, etc), taking them into unknown places, and knowing that if/when I mess up I'll have to say goodbye permanently. Other games can give me individual pieces of the experience, but only Roguelikes serve the entire recipe. And by that criteria, Cardlikes deliver just as well as any other Roguelike. (This is, incidentally, why I'm against the sort of metaprogress that Rogue Legacy and most Mystery Dungeon games offer. Even if they're mechanically similar, the flow of the game is bent into a different and much grindier shape.)
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Jul 10, 2023 20:50
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Get your kid to play some games with real permadeath. My son is playing Spelunky 2 now, and he thinks it's hilarious. (Spelunky has unlockable cosmetics and "shortcuts" which work against you, so I don't regard it as the bad sort of metaprogress.)
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Jul 12, 2023 00:44
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Ciaphas posted:i wonder what the video game metaprog equivalent of the "Do Not Open. Ever." packet hidden in the Risk Legacy box is Reverse-compiling the game and learning that it is, in fact, a game running on a computer.
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Jul 13, 2023 02:04
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I got to learn, the unfortunate way, why preservation pots are important in Shiren. Shiren game element spoiler: There are traps which will spoil ALL OF YOUR FOOD except if it's in a pot. So putting your food in these pots is just about essential. The boost to your inventory capacity is also nice.
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Jul 17, 2023 18:51
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I finally beat Streets of Rogue last night as the "Hacker", which was the first class I'd ever tried to play the game as! There was a fair bit of luck involved - "friend of the family" made Downtown much safer, and by the time I got to Uptown my hacking had become silent and instantaneous. The cop robots weren't my problem anymore; I'd make them run haywire, then they became everybody's problem. The Industrial District was probably the hardest part, really. It's the only part of the game where buildings are staffed by dudes in gas masks, so a lot of underhanded trickery doesn't work on them. The keys that helped me here were to realize two things: 1. You must remove the debuff perk which makes you weak. You will need to fight in melee sometime, and you want to win. and 2. Loadout-o-matic lets you buy Quick Escape Teleporters. Also, since I'd already ascended with several other classes, I was able to turn off Disasters. They make the game more chaotic, and the Hacker does not thrive in chaos.
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Jul 25, 2023 19:13
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Get a bluetooth keyboard, then DCSS on Android becomes absolutely perfect. It also makes for much better typing for other apps too!
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Jul 25, 2023 20:29
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Your Computer posted:is anyone here playing ye olde trad roguelikes on the nintendo steamdeck i need ideas on controller setup A Bluetooth keyboard is what you want.
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Aug 3, 2023 00:26
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All of you talking about pinball should really try Yoku's Island Express. It's not a roguelike, but it is a metroidvania. It's also excellent. There is a "randomizer" mode, but it just shifts key items around. I'd be all for a pinball roguelite. Pinball already has permadeath (limited by lives or quarters - easy enough to limit further). Random table generation would be about 99.9% of the effort. And the next person who mentions a pinball "roguelike" needs to quickly explain how their turn-based pinball will work.
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Sep 5, 2023 19:15
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Turin Turambar posted:https://www.theastronauts.com/2023/09/witchfire-early-access-faq/ I appreciate their answer here for two reasons: 1. They're using "roguelike" and "roguelite" correctly. 2. They're making it clear well ahead of time that their game is a vertical metaprogression roguelite. Would you have preferred they didn't do those things? (Also, vertical metaprogression is thankfully NOT the default in action rogues - see Spelunky, Enter the Gungeon, FTL, and Necrodancer.)
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Sep 8, 2023 18:09
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It looks like the low poly PS1/N64 style, but with no obvious seams or glitches (in the screens they chose anyway). The style seems fine to me! As I'm not super fond of Mystery Dungeon games, I'll probably nab this on sale.
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Sep 23, 2023 02:33
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Snooze Cruise posted:romancing saga 2 I love this recommendation. RS2 is definitely not a Roguelike or roguelite, but it does have a very unique progress system. More than one of them, really. It's rare to find a JRPG with permadeath - and this game has a lot of permadeath. Much more than old school Fire Emblem for example.
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Sep 24, 2023 04:34
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Tea Party Crasher posted:Does anybody know of any traditional style roguelikes that can be played with a controller? Ever since I've developed chronic pain in my hands and shoulders I haven't been able to use a mouse and keyboard, but I've been craving like crazy something to scratch my dungeon crawl stone soup itch I'll second the recommendation for Tangledeep. It's on Switch and PC and the controller works well for both.
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Oct 31, 2023 20:07
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According to Wikipedia, Shiren 6 will not feature the "night" mechanic from Shiren 4/5. What do y'all think about this? Personally I won't miss it - it felt like mandatory meta-progress in a game that was otherwise balanced to be beatable in a single run. The torches added more inventory pressure too.
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Nov 7, 2023 18:36
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More Shiren 6 details! https://rpgamer.com/2023/11/shiren-the-wanderer-the-mystery-dungeon-of-serpentcoil-island-gets-more-details-characters/ "Behemoths are giant monsters found in another realm accessible by mysterious gates. The gates will sometimes open up in dungeons, unleashing the Behemoth within. They are much more powerful than regular monsters, with extremely high Attack and immunity to blows form the front and side" I'm trying to think of how to semi-reliably deal with this already.
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Nov 22, 2023 16:39
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In other news, Nippon Ichi will be releasing a "roguelike strategy RPG" called Bar Stella Abyss. https://www.gematsu.com/2023/11/nippon-ichi-software-announces-roguelike-strategy-rpg-bar-stella-abyss-for-ps5-ps4-and-switch The preview here mainly talks about the cast, with practically no hard details about gameplay. I'm seeing some RL-style dungeon navigation and also an StS-style branching map, and an "energy" meter that's probably the hunger meter from Mystery Dungeon games. NIS has released several console roguelikes before, each of which featured (a lot of) metaprogression on top of traditional roguelike dungeon-ing and combat. I'd assume this will be similar unless they say otherwise.
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Nov 22, 2023 17:06
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Do you like Shiren knock-offs, but also wish they had a lot of risque character art? Your wish will be granted soon! https://store.steampowered.com/app/2436340/Yuuna_and_the_Haunted_Hot_Springs_The_Thrilling_Steamy_Maze_Kiwami/ Looks like there's also an action minigame. (NGL, I'll probably get this if the reviews aren't terrible)
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Nov 27, 2023 22:59
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victrix posted:Basically every 2d action roguelite has combat turn into this amorphous mush of enemies stacked on top of each other that you either wholesale obliterate or die to what amounts to an 8 headed hydra in stacked sprite form (Risk of Rain 1 vs 2 shows this in real stark contrast within the same franchise) Spelunky doesn't have this issue at all. But then, Spelunky doesn't have metaprogression either - it's "just" a well-balanced implementation of true Rogue principles in real time.
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Jan 9, 2024 20:52
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I generally despise metaprogression in all its forms. That said, I think BlazBlue Entropy Effect has a very cool idea that I've never seen before: a feature called "Mind Trials" where you can take one of your dead character builds and have them fight a superboss! It's like a "last hurrah" for a build you'd been enjoying, without feeling at all like the game's giving you an artifical second chance. The reward for beating it is just more metaprogress of course, but I wouldn't mind seeing this idea come up in other roguelikes too.
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Jan 10, 2024 22:09
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SKULL.GIF posted:Path of Achra does something like this. The game saves your characters (all by default, but you can limit it to only winners) to a Hall of Fame where you can take them through the Paths of Dust in the afterlife as many times as you like trying to go as deep as possible. That sounds great as well! Thanks!
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Jan 11, 2024 00:17
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beer gas canister posted:Also weapon leveling is not a feature in this entry! Kind of cool because it reduces grind and incentivizes weapon switching Will you still be able to fuse weapons to combine their traits, though? (Is it weird that I hope the answer is "no"?)
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Feb 7, 2024 05:24
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SKULL.GIF posted:Noita is comparable to Spleunky where the difficulty curve is less "curve" and more "brick wall" until you learn all the game's idiosyncracies. This makes me want to try Noita. Does it have any metaprogress, though? I'm basically done with metaprogress as a game mechanic.
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Feb 13, 2024 16:34
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I am very glad I got Noita. Thank you, various posters, for the recommendation! Now I need to figure out how to heal mid-level, and what eating does, and if those two game elements are related.
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Feb 14, 2024 05:01
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Jack Trades posted:I played a bunch of Barony. Did all the tutorials and some short runs. Be a wizard and shoot spells at a distance! The starting fire spell overpowers all the skeletons and rats that the first few levels throw at you, and the light spell obliviates the need to manage torches. As far as melee classes go, I'm opting for a hit -> run -> sneak -> repeat flow. Stealth actually works in this game, unlike straight face-to-face combat.
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Feb 18, 2024 08:57
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Am I a bad person if I turn off the random minotaurs on Barony? In this game, minotaurs are like the ghost from Spelunky, except that they appear on the floor after you spend too much time on a level. It's like a delayed punishment. Barony is otherwise quite pleasing, and it is nice that the devs added a way to turn it off (seemingly in response to player feedback, based on the Steam discussions).
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Feb 26, 2024 17:15
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Ofecks posted:Adventures in Early Console Roguelikes This is an excellent writeup. If you haven't played the Shiren games, you should know that they're basically all sequels to this game in terms of mechanics. There's also two more Torneko games and a "Young Yangus" game which are sequels to this. The PS1 Torneko game had an official release in the US in 2000! (It has the worst save system I've ever seen)
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Feb 26, 2024 21:09
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unattended spaghetti posted:For higher production, relatively traditional roguelikes, there’s always Jupiter Hell, though I know that’s a wee bit outside the realm of Berlin style. It's an almost perfect match for the Berlin interpretation, except for ascii graphics and the "modal" requirement. https://roguebasin.com/index.php?title=Berlin_Interpretation Shiren also fails those criteria specifically, and has metaprogression too. Few people are mentioning the fact that you can hoard and upgrade gear across multiple runs. In theory, you can beat the main game without using this - but it's a clear advantage to use it. And some bonus dungeons don't let you take your advanced gear in, while others strongly encourage that you do so. Shiren 5's "night" system is pure metaprogression, though it seems to be gone in Shiren 6 (yay!). (Also the Berlin interpretation needs revision badly. Or something to replace it.)
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Mar 1, 2024 18:29
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Snake Maze posted:you eventually smash through the main story with some +30 weapon that oneshots everything. (6, to its credit, actually gets rid of almost everything that made this possible This is the most compelling thing I've heard about Shiren 6 and is definitely gonna make me get a copy. Thanks!
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Mar 1, 2024 19:44
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