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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Have...fun? Nethack, not TOME, but: The Dev Team have devised a clever and cruel punishment for pudding farming. It's called pudding farming.
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Nov 21, 2015 02:24
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Man, alchemists are not my idea of a good time. "Here, you can make anything you want, but it's boring as poo poo to do so."
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Chakan posted:For those who like nethack (asking seriously) what do you like about it? Comparing it to something like DCSS, I don't see where it's better except it's more "free" in what you can and need to do. Honestly? (Of course speaking only for myself...) A lot of it is a combination of nostalgia and familiarity. I've only ascended half the roles, but I more or less know the game like the back of my own hand. Sometimes I'll have to look up obscurer things or stuff I forgot, but after playing Nethack a lot as a kid I've memorized a good chunk of Dylan O'Donnell's spoilers just by playing and looking them up again and again. So? It's an easy thing to fire up when I have ~15 mins to burn, if I die a ridiculous early death well "that's nethack!  ", if I get a good start in the Mines I'm pretty sure I can get to the Castle if I don't do anything stupid. And if I don't, it's usually because the game found a really nice way of loving me over  I like the inventory mechanics, the combat is OK although the game has a few weapons you'll more or less want eventually, though which ones vary by class. I like the variety of enemies and all the crazy special attacks, and how unpredictable an experience this can generate. (And going back to the first point, how this presents challenges to my knowledge of game mechanics!) And like you said, in Nethack there's usually a fair many ways of skinning a cat, some roles even go so far as to make this a gimmick to winning the game. And I like all the dumb jokes and references. 
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Dec 25, 2015 02:33
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Awesome! posted:there are multiple strategies for defeating the flagship. the rng in ftl is all in the shops and sector layouts and poo poo. the skill comes from adapting your run to what the rng gives you. I am not drawing any comparisons here, but this post reminded me of something I didn't include in my previous Nethack-fan-post: Adapting to what's thrown at you. My favourite Nethack game these days is rolling a Tourist. They're a role that's more or less a tabula rasa: They can do most everything, but they suck at everything right out of the gate, too. So you have to not only survive the first five, ten levels of the dungeon (granted they're given a usually generous starting inventory vis a vis perishables), you have to figure out a long-term plan based on what you find there. Eventually it's possible for most characters to shape themselves into whatever you'd like, at least if you don't mind scumming behaviour, but a realistic game plan for the first half of the game rather depends on what loot you meet in the beginning for the Tourist. Certain weapon types open an instant path for a later-game strategy, a lucky spellbook or scroll might make your game, and there's always the small chance of an early game wish. A wish which still isn't trivial since you're not guaranteed either offence or defence by that point! Basically, it's randomness at its best and at its worst. It's great to find something cool early on, but it's also a fun challenge to work around a really crummy start. (Again, not meant as a direct comparison to FTL as the games are structured very differently arc-wise.)
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Dec 26, 2015 03:05
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shas posted:My first roguelike and really only one I've played more than a few hours of (until recently, when I've been playing DCSS pretty heavily) is NetHack and on the basis of that and the thread title I've been playing some Rogue today and yesterday This is a very marginal thing but I think important for the hungerless conduct, quote:every twenty turns, you lose one point of nutrition:
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Jan 30, 2017 13:50
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Nethack: ; FTL: Those gosh frigging darnit rock men who invade you in a Sun system event without an enemy ship, I mean what in the even 
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May 4, 2017 18:00
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crab avatar posted:Exactly what I thought when I saw that post but I was like "eh I've only ascended once, what do I know" Knowing the end game better wouldn't really impact the choice that much, the enemies there mostly represent tedium rather than danger. Monster cursing your stuff so you have to spend more time on inventory management, so on. There's a couple of dick move types you meet like the Wizard himself or Demogorgon (you usually have to make that one intentionally appear though), but the earliest levels of the dungeon already have things that will randomly poison you to instadeath or shoot pure death rays at you  I guess green slimes are a bit of a shock first time, but you're almost guaranteed to have something to fix that problem by that stage. Just gotta know it first! 
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May 5, 2017 19:29
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Kobold Sex Tape posted:ADOM keybinds: At Least It's Not Nethack Nethack did nothing wrong 
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Jun 16, 2017 15:36
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Every single person here is an apologist for some bad game. Nethack is a fantastic game, sir
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Nov 3, 2017 22:57
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T. Bombastus posted:But this Potion of Heal Minor Cuts and Scrapes from the first dungeon might be just the thing I need to defeat the final boss! As the regular defender of the other classic, Nethack, hoarding is definitely a strategy that's viable if not downright preferable after the early game; I do it to a fault and it gets very tiresome after you amass enough STUFF since you have to keep juggling things in your bag of holding (or even worse the Sokoban stash or similar). The inventory list for my ascensions tend to be pretty long, and some of it is definitely bloat, but I can't imagine doing usual shenanigans like alchemy and mass blessings without at least some hoarding. Most posters will tell you Nethack is a terrible archaic game that hates your guts and they're not wrong, but some people enjoy that experience!
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Nov 27, 2017 22:53
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:Does anyone else think that the Sokoban puzzle levels in Nethack are a very weird design decision? It's an optional challenge for a random chance of one of two great items, that can be completely ignored in a playthrough. Also part of Nethack's design philosophy was to throw everything and the kitchen sink in, as the saying goes. There's a lot of weird nerd references sprinkled all around the place. Some of the alchemy things are puns for goodness's sake
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Dec 1, 2017 21:33
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:I've made a game that's perfectly balanced in every way, and if you kill 1000 bunny rabbits outside the starting town, one of them will drop the best weapon in the game. Totally optional, so it's fine, right? Assuming it takes hours and can't easily be delegated to a robot, up to you I guess. As I've said before, Nethack is a horrendous old game that hates the player, but I don't see how Sokoban of all things is a scandal since you can get the bag and the amulet in the game in many other ways. Some of the arguably easiest if tedious ways are far more scummier, too, if you're willing to invest a lot of time in them. This is a game where Demogorgon can be summoned randomly by some bosses, a stone block puzzle as a breather is benign. Also it has more food than other parts of the dungeon
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Dec 1, 2017 21:42
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Mithross posted:It wasn't "Is this a scandal?" so much as "Isn't this a weird thing to put into a roguelike?" Sure, I understand that it is weird, but it was added in 3.3.0 I think, when the game already had all the crazy shenanigans with literal kitchen sinks and fountains and such. As per TooMuchAbstraction's example, there's a non-zero chance of getting a massively advantageous item as a level 1 character by messing around with a fountain (and a much higher chance of being murdered brutally). Sokoban on its face is odd, but as an addition to a game with all this crazy non-sense already in it, meh. Maybe this is the nostalgia disclaimer edit: The boulder pushing and hole-filling mechanics were already there, so it wasn't that much of an addition except for the restriction on diagonal movement. Olesh posted:My favorite dumb Nethack thing is that if you polymorph into a metallivore, you can eat metal weapons. If you consume a trident in this way, you get a special message ("That was pure chewing satisfaction!") and it exercises your wisdom. I believe this is a reference/pun of an old US chewing gum brand. Hence the wisdom bit, I imagine! Rappaport fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Dec 1, 2017 |
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Dec 1, 2017 22:09
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Isaac posted:Steaming with rage as nethack makes me play a female valkyrie It's not impossible to become a male Valkyrie, however 
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Feb 5, 2018 23:48
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Ranter posted:It was some goon. I reaped tons of karma posting it to /r/dataisugly. Don't have the original any more and it was deleted from imgur.   (No, I don't remember who made it either)
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Feb 28, 2018 23:28
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I dislike metaprogression but I don't think it disqualifies a game genre-wise. Crawl and Nethack have player ghosts, which are basically reverse metaprogression, and I think in Nethack you can even take their stuff? In Nethack the ghost spawns on top of a pile of the dead player's entire inventory, but most of it is cursed so you have to deal with that somehow. Ghosts themselves aren't dangerous and don't use any of the dead player's equipment against you, but I can't remember if vampirized dead PCs do for example.
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Mar 24, 2018 00:42
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Neurion posted:Looks like it's 343. This is rear end. poo poo was fun until Gehennom and then it just became a slog. Gehennom has been known as a bad endgame for a long-rear end time, that's why so many variants add stuff or change it around somehow. That said, in vanilla you're probably best off finishing your ascension kit before going down there, and then more or less racing through to the bottom and then back up. Preferably digging beelines between stairs as much as you can prior to murdering the wizard, at least if you're lawful. As to your particular predicament, the only consolation I can offer is that the vibrating square's location is limited by the space needs for making the moat post-ritual, and I think it can't be on a direct path to the stairs either, so you 'only' have to investigate all the hallways that are far enough away from the level borders 
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Feb 26, 2020 21:50
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Nethack is a smorgasbord of bad game design choices, but I grew up with it and this thread needs more love for it and thank you to Lawman Zero for bringing it up (My first ascension was a tourist and that's my Nethack story, thank you all for visiting)
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May 16, 2020 08:49
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Lawman 0 posted:
I am definitely a hoarder in any game, but I'm not sure if it's just me that tends to wind up in the endgame (assuming I make it there!) of Nethack with a full inventory page of wands that I rarely even use.
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May 17, 2020 07:12
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phone posting got me again.
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Lawman 0 posted:
You're lawful so there's only so many artifacts to wish for (this post will be a huge spoiler btw), Grayswandir is good as pointy things go. I guess the Mitre of Holiness or Orb of Detection are OK if you want some of the protections they confer. These will blast you since they're not meant for you. You could just as well blow a wish on a dragon scale mail, unless you really want to kill a few silver dragons, not that they're a problem for you at this point. I personally usually go for gray dragon mail, but with SDSM you leave your neck free so eh. (Make sure you have some source of magic resistance that won't be taken by covetous monsters before Gehennom!) If you're really hard up on things to wish for, you can just get something silly like blessed spellbooks that are good for valkyries, or a helm of opposite alignment if you want to improve your odds on the Astral Plane.
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May 26, 2020 00:21
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Also effective note taking and checklist making.
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That said, in my experience wishing for the staff of Aesculapius is one of the better uses for a wish for neutral wizards, that thing is pretty drat handy and you don't need to swap your weapon around that much. After they've gained a few levels of course, the blast can and will kill low-level characters. In general, wishing for artifacts of your own alignment seems to me to be a good use of the castle wishes, assuming you're not missing some vital non-artifact thing from your kit due to sheer bad luck. This is kind of why neutral characters have a slight edge, most of the decent intelligent (blasty) artifacts are neutral. (My first ascension was with a tourist )
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May 26, 2020 09:53
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Lawman 0 posted:Jesus christ how did you stumble on a mind flayer? Mines generate random h and guess who is one
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Jun 2, 2020 22:33
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Lawman 0 posted:So I got a question about eating rings in nethack. Is it actually worth it if I have polymorph and poly control? Also are there any other good things I can with self poly to prepare for the endgame? You can get the good effects from eating corpses. Unless you want to do something weird with polymorph-itis, or something.
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Jun 3, 2020 21:07
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Lawman 0 posted:Gonna eat some rings of increase damage Handing out damage isn't really your problem in the end-game, it's dealing with all the bullshit that liches, Rodney etc. throw at you. I mean, sure, it helps if you can one-shot sea-monsters, but eating rings isn't really going to do that.
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Jun 3, 2020 23:12
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Lawman 0 posted:So it's really just a stupid ascension trick? Well, it's not the stupidest, but I'm not the person who tried to have a gaggle of giants hoarding my gems for my ascension, so (Spoilers: This ended badly)
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Jun 3, 2020 23:21
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Jazerus posted:as long as you know your core ascension kit nothing else really matters that much Right, but which is a better use of a wish, the Monty Hall option or +2 to damage? Just saying.
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Jun 5, 2020 11:40
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Lawman 0 posted:I ascended that valk honestly I was spending alot of time dicking around with it because basically the ascension was (mostly) a cakewalk after I got out of gehennom. Congrats!
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Jun 6, 2020 03:01
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Lawman 0 posted:FIQhack is a very nice and modernized variant of nethack tbh. I'm not the only frequenter of this thread who ages ago actually printed out not just the Nethack guidebook, but most of Dylan O'Donnell's spoilers too? 
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Jun 6, 2020 19:09
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) and a re-balancing of spellcasting and wands is pretty cool. I suggest that everyone should give it a go imo.
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Lawman 0 posted:Just got crushed by the castle drawbridge, feeling great. That's still just a textbook YASD, it's not like you lost all your gem-carrying giant slaves or something
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Jun 29, 2020 06:07
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No Wave posted:I dont think thats what nrook meant. I think it's more that if you can't lose early you're just having your time wasted and ideally there should be more risk/reward mechanics in the early game that make you stronger in the later game. This is why tourist is my favourite role to play in Nethack, the very earliest bit of the game is at the same time most dangerous/challenging, but potentially most rewarding, since the tourist is basically designed to be at the mercy of whatever gear the RNG decides to throw your way. Sometimes you get a really cool weapon early on, or good armor, other times you just get brutally murdered by DLVL 2! And the process of getting potentially murdered only takes like fifteen minutes of playtime or so. (Usual disclaimer that Nethack is hard as balls no matter your role in the early part, and is... Not the best place to look for game design ideas from a modern perspective)
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Jul 28, 2020 00:34
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Lawman 0 posted:Yeah but otoh tourist probably has the best quest artifact in the game Right, but that's the point, you can't get that until the mid-game.
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Jul 28, 2020 04:00
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Magitek posted:Guys, quick, this is important: Are there any Roguelikes where you play as/have the option to play as a bee? You can turn into a bee in Nethack, but it's not permanent and also probably wouldn't be all that interesting to play as.
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Oct 30, 2020 23:14
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Jeza posted:when will we get the Discworld roguelike we deserve One of the character options in Nethack is the Tourist, and you even get to meet Twoflower, if, you know, you don't get killed before that.
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Nov 19, 2020 08:36
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Nethack has a luck stat / score that influences a lot of event outcomes and such, and there's many ways to raise or lower one's luck over the course of the game. That said, it's pretty much under the hood and I don't think it can really be abused to make absurdly good runs, but it's still a good idea to try and keep it high just to keep the RNG from kicking you in the nads every second turn.
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Dec 8, 2020 09:45
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resistentialism posted:but what else could someone with a tin of ogre king meat wish for? A can opener?
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Jan 29, 2021 06:39
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Phigs posted:I thought I was immune to the takes. Most of the stuff you can find is cursed anyway, so it's a... Cursed take?
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Feb 6, 2021 02:23
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Mithross posted:I love ADOM dearly but a lot of that love is from having put the requisite hundreds of hours into it back when I had fewer game options. Also from just accepting I was going to need liberal amounts of spoilers. If I tried to start from scratch now I doubt I'd get into it. This is basically me and Nethack. I would say that in my personal opinion Nethack is the 'best' old-school roguelike, but as a kid I looked up and memorized a lot of spoilers, and I've muscle-memoried the game's fairly obtuse command system / UI. The game has a lot of obtuse, weird references (try eating a trident and see if you get the joke, etc.) and the 'meta-progression' of figuring out which things will just absolutely obliterate you, be it enemies or weird interactions with items, or whatever, takes a long time. I can play the game now and find it fun, but I honestly don't think it'd be a good or fun gaming experience for someone with fresh eyes sitting down with it today. Unless they specifically enjoy the kind of process learning old roguelikes is like, but as far as I understand it, newer games have stream-lined the process a lot, and it's not like you're exactly missing much not experiencing the joy of digging through 20 levels of Gehennom mazes, or ADOM end-game nonsense.
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Feb 11, 2021 11:09
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Kobold Sex Tape posted:i personally feel like adom has nowhere near as much wiki checking stuff, but i also haven't played much nethack. i also thiiink it probably isn't all too much longer? how long do typical nethack runs take, anyway? My ADOM runs wound up at 10 hours, but that was with me being a slow player ontop of using tiles mode which makes things even slower. Watching negarretep just play ascii casually on stream he just kinda pulled in a sub-5 hour win without really trying hard at all. Nethack is probably around that mark, maybe a bit longer depending on what you do, but the game infamously has a) massively backtracking through the entire dungeon you've already seen once 2) god-drat Gehennom, which is literally a dozen+ dungeon levels that are single-tile-wide-corridor mazes, which you of course also have to back-track through. The game length is IMO much inflated due to this, even though the ascension back to the top is made at least theoretically more difficult. But then some of the difficulty comes from things that simply add to the tedium! I love me some Nethack but hot dang is it also a mess in some ways. ADOM's overworld, several dungeons etc. make it look and feel like a bigger whole, at least to me.
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Feb 20, 2021 21:18
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nrook posted:The ascension run is fun and doesn't take more than 15 minutes unless you really botch it, but yes, hell is very bad in NetHack. It sounds like ADOM isn't really much longer, if at all, if players typically win within 10 hours. It kinda depends on the RNG. And obviously you can prepare for it beforehand, especially by digging Gehennom into straight paths, but that's just tedium in a different portion of the game
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Feb 20, 2021 21:52
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Can I complain about how dumb I am for playing roguelikes in here? Because I'm gonna. I only recently started playing Spelunky (the first one), because it was cheap on Steam and I like hard platformers like Hollow Knight. Okay, fair enough, this one has roguelike bullshit on top, so it should be my bag, right? I've now spent well over a hundred runs trying to get the shortcut to the Temple open. I would like to explore the Temple section more, just for fun, using the shortcut. Well, the previous shortcuts were all relatively mundane, and I stumbled onto all of them more or less by accident anyway. This one, though? You have to go through the whole drat thing up to the Temple, carrying something from the first section of the game. That may or may not be easily available to you, depending on level generation RNG. Admittedly some of this is my fault, I suck at dealing with bats and frogs, but carrying that item around also makes it doubly difficult to rescue maidens, or attack normally. I've had beastly runs where I've had like 30 bombs, but I still can't reliably make it to the end of the Jungle, and don't even get me started on the Ice Caves. I know this is supposed to be the roguelike experience, and I keep trying this over and over again, but 
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Feb 22, 2021 19:50
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perc2 posted:There are tons of new and interesting trad roguelikes, I think Roguebasin will give you an idea of some of the stuff people are making. I made a list of the best new ones to the space some months ago, but I can't find the post. There's plenty to explore though, looks like even old Moria is getting updates! This one? perc2 posted:Apologies but we can do better for "hot" than an ancient version of ADOM
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Mar 22, 2021 01:43
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