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Of course there will be a return to fascist thought. In fact, a popular phone in radio station in the UK even asked: is fascism racist? As if a none racist fascist movement would be OK. In times of crisis, the populism of fascism can flourish if the opposing voice isn't strong enough. To go to the UK again, there is an under educated and under employed mass of people who can be mobilised, through manipulative means, to fight for the small business localism of the more privileged groups who consider their enemies this or that ideological or ethnic group. It's worrying, especially the lack of an obvious opposition from the left. The 'left' here is perceived to be a milquetoast liberal voice that doesn't care much about the common man or woman, but a layer privileged enough to direct its battles toward one or the other side in a twitter controversy. I believe there are a lot of people in the UK, and elsewhere in Europe, who do strongly oppose fascism. It's a question of leadership and breaking away from the liberal and social democratic blocs that still maintain illusions in the existing 'left' parties. If this isn't tackled, fascist poison will be allowed to spread, with the collusion of the status quo. Edit - I'd also point out that there are extremely oppressive currents in the political UK mainstream, in the guise of saving money, such as the vans telling immigrants to 'go home' and all sorts of horrible political agenda dressed up in our media. At the same time, the tax man here ignores billions in legally dodged corporation tax, instead we are told the problem is with our neighbours. Taking a basic description of fascism as class collaboration to further interests on national lines, that is in full swing. Tazzo fucked around with this message at 02:24 on Aug 10, 2013 |
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Aug 10, 2013 02:13
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ThirdPartyView posted:Didn't most of the Catholic Church leadership also support Salazar for a good part of his reign in Portugal? Yes, much like in Spain the state in Portugal was supported by the church because (among other things) their primary political opponents at the time were Communists. Anecdotal, but when Salazar survived an assassination attempt by anarco-syndicalists on the 4th of July, 1937, the bishops of Portugal called it an "act of God" that Salazar was unscathed, sparing Portugal of "the scourge of Communism".
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Aug 10, 2013 02:16
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ThirdPartyView posted:Didn't most of the Catholic Church leadership also support Salazar for a good part of his reign in Portugal? I always heard Salazar kept them within arm's length, and was suspicious of them at times, but still supported it as an institution. Wikipedia says there were quite a few prominent dissidents in the Church throughout his reign related to social justice. edited out stupidity
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Aug 10, 2013 02:20
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Chamale posted:Looking into it I'm finding a wide range of estimates, from 150,000 to 1,500,000 Roma and Sinti deaths, and the high estimates depend on much higher estimates of the prewar Roma population. It's not crucial to my point. Discrimination against "gypsies" is so bad now because of the lack of advocacy and recognition of anti-Roma discrimination in the years after the Holocaust. It remained more acceptable to hate the Roma in occupied Germany after the war, while virulent anti-semites were suspected of being Nazi loyalists. It took until 1979 for West Germany to recognize that persecution of the Roma was racially motivated and their right to reparations. I'd say it stems to before the war: Roma were even more ostracized than Jews in Germany, Denmark, Belgium, Italy, etc. The Roma weren't very established in the US, and those that were tended to have cut most connections with Europe, and so the international Roma community didn't have the same ability to help them out after the war.
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Aug 10, 2013 02:31
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Obdicut posted:I'd say it stems to before the war: Roma were even more ostracized than Jews in Germany, Denmark, Belgium, Italy, etc. The Roma weren't very established in the US, and those that were tended to have cut most connections with Europe, and so the international Roma community didn't have the same ability to help them out after the war. That's true as well, the reason for a lack of Roma voices after WWII is definitely tied to their increased ostracism before the war. It's an issue that goes back a long time and tends to pop up with many nomadic and semi-nomadic groups around the world.
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Aug 10, 2013 02:43
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weavernaut posted:For what it's worth, my German partner seems completely untroubled by the rise of fascist groups in Europe, but Germany is probably the safest place to be in Europe, if you want to avoid fascist gangs.     
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Aug 10, 2013 02:46
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^^^^^ To be fair he didn't say it was completely free of fascists. Question: are the National Bolsheviks still around in Russia? Also, not trying to provoke a dangerous derail but how do Euro-Fascist groups in general view the Israel/Palestine conflict since they seem to despite both Jews and Muslims?
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Aug 10, 2013 03:24
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As a matter of simple fact, there are Fascists on the rise. Having observed enough about the Golden Dawn in Greece they are without a doubt nascent fash. On a related note, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXCyDanffrw quote:
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Aug 10, 2013 03:26
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To the extent there is a far-right revival -- and it's difficult to tell whether there is a lasting revival or if it's going to be another flash in the pan like many other far-right revivals in previous decades -- I think it's worth pointing out that it's not necessarily a purely European or Western phenomenon. I'd suggest it's also happening in (at least) East Asian politics and it could plausibly be world-systemic, for which there would be a couple of obvious reasons (e.g. the 'centre-left' becoming neoliberal and shutting out underprivileged classes from mainstream politics and the liberal attempt to suppress political antagonisms). As far as Germany goes I think it's probably the European country that's least in danger of succumbing to such a revival. It's always easy to find dramatic pictures like ^^^^ but in the broader picture the far right are impotent there and there are far stronger checks in place against it happening so it seems pretty unlikely compared to, say, France.
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Aug 10, 2013 03:35
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It's a shame the far-right scum often seem better dressed and organized than their opponents. Why do the good guys have to look like slobs? I guess it's because they've got cops and soldiers (or people attracted to such professions) while the left has college students, but still -- if an angry young male who feels disenfranchised sees a bunch of snappy outfits and tough looking guys one hand, and typical Trots or anarchists on the other, which group will make him feel more powerful and in control? Edit: Fortunately there's also a lot of dorky fat guys on the right, whose cosplaying doesn't inspire awe or confidence in ignorant youth. OwlBot 2000 fucked around with this message at 03:47 on Aug 10, 2013 |
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Aug 10, 2013 03:39
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OwlBot 2000 posted:they've got cops and soldiers while the left has college students, In Hungary there was a recent survey showing that Jobbik had the largest student base out of all parties, closely followed by Fidesz (the government) who are pretty much equally far-right. 
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Aug 10, 2013 03:42
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OwlBot 2000 posted:It's a shame the far-right scum often seem better dressed and organized than their opponents. What? Learn some history, starting here in France: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UU07m_Cr-jg   UK AFA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlqnOeX4GeM
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Aug 10, 2013 03:47
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I've seen that documentary, but that doesn't seem like the majority of left-wing people I encounter. Perhaps Europe is a bit better.
OwlBot 2000 fucked around with this message at 04:00 on Aug 10, 2013 |
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Aug 10, 2013 03:50
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I've been reading traces of this in stories about Association Football racism. Black players like Balotelli are running into rampant racism across Europe when visiting other stadiums. Many of these incidents are perpetrated by fascist groups that are becoming more and more popular as African immigration issues have picked up across southern Europe. I can understand conservative push-back against liberal governments and politics in the EU after the financial meltdown, but fascism is a bit overboard. I'm hoping it's mostly bluster and loses traction like other extremist movements.
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Aug 10, 2013 04:05
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Meh, I feel like you are overstating your case here. Barring some edge cases like Greece, I'm not convinced these fascist movements are in any way a threat to liberal democratic order. The vast, vast majority of fascist organizations in the first world fizzles out without achieving any sort of power. So while it's easy to find scary pictures of goosestepping idiots their mere existence is not in any way an evidence of Europe is going back to 30's. Far, far more dangerous possibility is not the fascists overthrowing liberal democracy, but conservatives co-opting (some of) their rhetoric for their own ends and presenting (some of) their policies as the new conservative normal. This is what's happening in Russia, UK, France, Austria and Switzerland. Anti-immigrant and specifically anti-Muslim hatred is undoubtedly on the rise but that hatred is not channeled to proper fascist organizations no matter how much fascists would want to. Instead it's finding more and more voice in conservative circles and that's a far more troubling development. Fascists do not need to achieve national power to do untold amount of harm to a community, so you do not need to wait for the new führer to take power to fight fascists. But at the same time focusing on these small-time fascist organizations at the expense of ignoring mainstream politics is a fatal mistake. fspades fucked around with this message at 04:33 on Aug 10, 2013 |
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Aug 10, 2013 04:31
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fspades posted:Meh, I feel like you are overstating your case here. You could kinda make a theme about the rise of populist parties in response to immigration, but then you'd have to dump all those shocking stories from Russia (never mind bloody Turkmenistan) - the former Soviet space is a zone people immigrate out of, not into.
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Aug 10, 2013 05:38
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Given Snowden and Russia's former history as a Communist sector, I genuinely don't want to, want to be careful about condemning Russia - but if they're going to be a breeding ground for fascism going forward  I really don't think I could possibly overstate how disturbing it is that Russia is sanctioning the activity of vigilante gangs going out and murdering gay teenagers. Have there been any comparable actions by the state towards its fascist gangs? Because holy gently caress, dude.
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Aug 10, 2013 05:40
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weavernaut posted:I'm very upset about the situation in Russia, since it means I cannot go back there without literally putting my life in danger. I'm not sure what I'm going to do about my citizenship, now, I have to formally renounce it in Russia if I want to give it up. MinionOfCthulhu posted:Greece gave us the gift of democracy, it's only fitting that they get to enjoy making GBS threads all over it. Well they also gave us the gift of fascism. Sparta was a big influence on later fascist movements. 
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Aug 10, 2013 05:49
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Russia is a country that has been 'weimar'ed,' liberal democracy and capitalism failed it and what has resulted is the all too predictable aftermath. It is just a bit ahead of the curve. Granted, the actual instigators may be closer to home. Larry Summers did it. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 06:44 on Aug 10, 2013 |
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Aug 10, 2013 06:37
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Ardennes posted:Russia is a country that has been 'weimar'ed,' liberal democracy and capitalism failed it and what has resulted is the all too predictable aftermath. It is just a bit ahead of the curve. I suspect this is the biggest part of the resurrection of fascism. We're once again in a situation where, from a lot of people's perspective, "the system doesn't work". Russia tried democracy (sort of; they feel like they did at any rate) and ended up with oligarchs, poverty, and a massive loss of prestige. Greece has been part of the liberal democratic Western world order (again, enough so that popular perceptions would say so) and is now basically in a depression. Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania, all similarly stagnant. To a lesser degree, same with Britain and France. People are looking for a new basic worldview, and nice simple things like "the problem is all these outsiders" that seem obvious and can be anecdotally confirmed by those colored people doing crimes on TV and such has an intrinsic appeal. And don't underestimate the power of attaching ideology to charitable goods, either: I think the most important part of the excerpts on Golden Dawn is that they provide handouts and charity to native Greeks. It's the same sort of missionary setup that spread organized religions around the globe, and economic difficulties only make it more effective by increasing the number of people who will show up for the free stuff. I guess my point is: Europe's verging on, or in, a depression, just like the last time Fascism sprang up. It's no surprise it's springing up again. I actually have a little optimism: at least the countries where Fascism manifested most strongly before--Germany, Spain, and Italy--are where it's least visible now. Maybe people can learn after all? (Except the Russians. That place has just lurched from autocracy to autocracy since forever.)
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Aug 10, 2013 09:02
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As another poster said, I think it is much more likely the situation will be some type of "fascism-lite" sort of like Hungary is and certain ways Russia. In Spain and Italy it might be more accurate to say the fascists never really left considering how deeply reactionary the right is there and how they are currently dismantling the country piece by piece. Hungary isn't that different (and they were fascist). It is going to be probably get a lot more ugly, but it will probably involve right-conservatives, fascists and business interests working together to crush any open dissent.
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Aug 10, 2013 09:21
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On a phone so can't do two quotes easily so on the issue of poorly dressed left wingers you have two issues. Firstly COINTELPRO in the US and Operation GLADIO in Europe worked very very hard to destroy organised left wing groups, with the destruction of the Black Panthers through means up to and including open assassination being a big example of a sharply dressed left wing group being destroyed. In general law enforcement is much more diligent in investigating and undermining the organised far left than they are the far right. On that note it is worth googling about how voting figures suggest the Greek police strongly support Golden Dawn. Secondly the idea of protest has been calcified in mould of the 1960s anti-conformism. This has quite deliberately done by the media and the powerful but it isn't like left wingers are unwilling to embrace it. Essentially in the 60s dressing like a hippy and not following the rules of society more generally genuinely was a radical act. However by the 80s this kind of self expression had wholly been co-opted in consumerism. Buy clothes that represent who YOU are and be a real rebel that makes the rich richer and in no way threatens the status quo. So strongly has marketing associated being well dressed / cohesive that many left wingers genuinely do not want snappy uniforms etc for fear it will cause their organisation to become right wing and unpleasant. To be fair this is linked to entirely reasonable fears of infiltration and co-option but it does hinder putting across an organised image. It also makes it quite easy for right wing concern trolling to imply and organisation that may be putting across an organised image is suspect. Nckdictator posted:^^^^^ If Breivik's (another example of the authorities' soft touch on fascists) writing is representative they hate the Jews still but divide them into two groups. Zionists are to be tolerated because they are killing lots of Muslims and will provide a dumping ground in Israel once the fascists are in power and want rid of local Jews. "Liberal Jews" (their label) like Chomsky get the same old Nazi style hate, they're enemies within and need to be "dealt" with.
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Aug 10, 2013 09:25
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I agree with ReV VAdAUL about the causes, but I think it's time for left-wing groups to get over the "counterculture" image. It's just not appealing to anyone, and while bad clothes, long hair, poor fitness and sporadic showering might have been radical in the 1960s, it's just harmful now. Look like competent, attractive people who have it together, and you'll have an easier time recruiting the same.
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Aug 10, 2013 09:38
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ReV VAdAUL posted:If Breivik's (another example of the authorities' soft touch on fascists) . In what way did the Norwegian authorities go soft on Breivik?
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Aug 10, 2013 09:45
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Elliptical Dick posted:In what way did the Norwegian authorities go soft on Breivik? I apologise I was unclear there. The Norwegians weren't soft on Breivik per set but the man killed dozens of people, was clearly connected to fascist groups across Europe and openly admitted to being a fascist. Yet authorities across Europe did not come out to denounce fascism let alone crack down on it. Even the groups he was most closely connected to received no censure, the EDL isn't even classified as a hate group for instance. All Muslims are consistently painted as potential terrorists and yet the violent fascist groups with a direct connection to Breivik are not even mentioned to be similar to him only a few years later. Also no one disputes he is bad guy but for someone who killed dozens of children he gets very little hate from the media or culture more generally. When it is time for another civil liberty to be taken away the danger of Muslim terrorists is shouted from the rooftops but the possibility of another Fascist mass murderer of kids is never even mentioned.
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Aug 10, 2013 09:59
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I have this cool book from the library called "The Reactionary Mind" and it's very good. One thing it has shown me very well is how essential the idea of an 'aristocracy' (so to say) is to reactionary politics. The author quotes Edmund Burke (1700s writer very opposed to the French Revolution)quote:To obey a real superior... is one of the most important of all virtues - a virtue absolutely essential to the attainment of anything great and lasting. As Ardennes and Akratic Method rightly point out, the failures of liberal democracy and capitalism in the lives of these budding fascists is the fuel for that fascism. What I think is worth pointing out is it is not just a failure to deliver a healthy society and functioning economic production process. It is also a failure to produce a hierarchy that can be credibly given faith, a hierarchy that one might enjoy submitting to. Into this vacuum comes the easy answer of nationalism, racism, and other forms of otherization that allow the budding fascist to simultaneously be the aristocracy while joyfully submitting to the aristocracy. There's way more stuff in this book that is worth mentioning here, so I will try to find it. I also have this cool book on the psychology of fascism in Nazi Germany that I will dig up. Fakie edit - Another subject related to fascist psychology would be opposition to the process of subject-object inversion (or commodity fetishism) that is the result of capitalist modes of production. Loosely, subject-object inversion is when objects (commodities) determine the movement of subjects (humans) through the logic and power of market discipline. The tradition of subjects (humans) determining the movement of objects (objects) is subverted. Identification with violent nationalism is a way for the subject to re-assert some of their lost subjectivity. For more on this, see Marx, Foucault, Heidegger. This also ties into the idea of legitimate vs. illegitimate aristocracies. Losing ones subjectivity by submitting to a peer group for the glorification of race and nation can feel better than losing ones subjectivity by submitting to the blind logic of economic calculation.
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Aug 10, 2013 10:12
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OwlBot 2000 posted:I agree with ReV VAdAUL about the causes, but I think it's time for left-wing groups to get over the "counterculture" image. It's just not appealing to anyone, and while bad clothes, long hair, poor fitness and sporadic showering might have been radical in the 1960s, it's just harmful now. Look like competent, attractive people who have it together, and you'll have an easier time recruiting the same. From experience most people at protests I have seen just wear normal clothing they have from work. Do you think leftists groups need to buy a bunch of suits to get credibility? To be honest, when I hear complaining about dress, it is usually from left of center liberals who really aren't devoted to much in the first place. Recruiting attractive, well dressed people isn't the point, and trying "to win over" the public with some thin displays isn't going to work. Anyway during Occupy most of the "long hairs" are just there to have a good time or are just homeless literally had no where to go.
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Aug 10, 2013 10:13
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DongsMcMurphy posted:It always strikes me as sickening and ironic that some of the inhabitants of countries that fought tooth-and-nail against the Axis are now saying "hey this fascism thing has always worked historically hyuk hyuk" and deliberately using imagery that evokes the Nazis in their iconography. Case in point, Golden Dawn: There's even an argument to be made that the historical consensus should shift to consider France to have been an Axis power, not an Allied one. I think I've heard that more French troops died fighting against the Allies than with them. There's a stupid popular stereotype in some countries that France is a cowardly nation, dating to the military collapse in 1940, but many Allied troops died fighting hardened Vichy soldiers. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 10:24 on Aug 10, 2013 |
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Aug 10, 2013 10:19
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OwlBot 2000 posted:I agree with ReV VAdAUL about the causes, but I think it's time for left-wing groups to get over the "counterculture" image. It's just not appealing to anyone, and while bad clothes, long hair, poor fitness and sporadic showering might have been radical in the 1960s, it's just harmful now. Look like competent, attractive people who have it together, and you'll have an easier time recruiting the same. This kind of bullshit, particularly the 'sporadic showering' stuff is just a right-wing talking point dressed up in slightly different language, like 'dirty, unwashed hippy/lefty'. If you want to talk about the power of symbols, organised groups of men with identical uniforms and things, that's one thing, but I sincerely doubt that people are really going 'oh, I must join Golden Dawn, they have such wonderful hygiene!' Ocean Book posted:Fakie edit - Another subject related to fascist psychology would be opposition to the process of subject-object inversion (or commodity fetishism) that is the result of capitalist modes of production. Loosely, subject-object inversion is when objects (commodities) determine the movement of subjects (humans) through the logic and power of market discipline. The tradition of subjects (humans) determining the movement of objects (objects) is subverted. Identification with violent nationalism is a way for the subject to re-assert some of their lost subjectivity. For more on this, see Marx, Foucault, Heidegger. I always like to see people quoting Foucault. But how does this factor into the aggressive push for business that fascism represents? I'd say in this respect, commodity is still fetishised, it's just a different type. That resistance against certain types of commodities gets co-opted into the accepted networks of power as an exercise of resistance to be quashed, and instead, new commodities that determine worth become important, be they flags, uniforms, and other symbols of power. It's also possible to argue that it's not the commodities that are the source of contention, but who possesses them/prevents them from being possessed by the 'right' people. Pesmerga fucked around with this message at 10:29 on Aug 10, 2013 |
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Aug 10, 2013 10:25
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Pesmerga posted:This kind of bullshit, particularly the 'sporadic showering' stuff is just a right-wing talking point dressed up in slightly different language, like 'dirty, unwashed hippy/lefty'. If you want to talk about the power of symbols, organised groups of men with identical uniforms and things, that's one thing, but I sincerely doubt that people are really going 'oh, I must join Golden Dawn, they have such wonderful hygiene!' I don't know if Marxists in clean uniforms would play up too much on the local news either. Anyway you need some type of organization and purpose before you start dressing everyone up in a uniform.
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Aug 10, 2013 10:32
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Ardennes posted:I don't know if Marxists in clean uniforms would play up too much on the local news either. Anyway you need some type of organization and purpose before you start dressing everyone up in a uniform. Oh, I wasn't suggesting that the left needed to get some swanky new threads. It was more that if we were discussing what attracts people (rather than media attention) to political movements, I can accept that symbols of power and unity do play a part, particularly to those who consider themselves disenfranchised and seeking a sense of identity. While laughing at the suggestion that the left has a unique and movement-crushing issue with personal hygiene. Unfortunately, in that respect, the left is not particularly good at symbols of power that haven't been co-opted and commodified as symbols of harmless resistance (for example, Che Guevara t-shirts, soviet flags, the hammer and sickle etc), and the unity sucks.
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Aug 10, 2013 10:42
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FWIW, Ukraine, Schweiz and Belarus has also seen explosive membership growth in neo-nazi organizations and street gangs. It's all loving over 
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Aug 10, 2013 10:44
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Pesmerga posted:Oh, I wasn't suggesting that the left needed to get some swanky new threads. It was more that if we were discussing what attracts people (rather than media attention) to political movements, I can accept that symbols of power and unity do play a part, particularly to those who consider themselves disenfranchised and seeking a sense of identity. While laughing at the suggestion that the left has a unique and movement-crushing issue with personal hygiene. Yeah, I have to really question about the hygiene stuff as well, why does it need to be a priority at all? I guess it is just some culturally American thing to think all leftists=hippies, and hippies=dirty and people don't like dirty hippies. I wonder if it is sort of a result of Obama's style of conservative liberalism, that American progressivism has turned so far right, the emphasis is more on presenting a crisp attractive image than any actual substance. Well those symbols only got co-opted after they lost their power, the Soviet-chic stuff was a very 90s into the 2000s thing. New symbols aren't that hard to find. As far as unity, there will always be more disagreement about changing anything than keeping it the same.
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Aug 10, 2013 10:51
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fspades posted:Meh, I feel like you are overstating your case here. Barring some edge cases like Greece, I'm not convinced these fascist movements are in any way a threat to liberal democratic order. The vast, vast majority of fascist organizations in the first world fizzles out without achieving any sort of power. So while it's easy to find scary pictures of goosestepping idiots their mere existence is not in any way an evidence of Europe is going back to 30's. Once you look at it that way, the appetite for it starts looking a lot weaker in much of Europe. The EDL is a very nasty terrorist organization, and there are individuals and small groups that cause real harm, but I don't think the masses of the British people are clamoring for a rebirth of the BUF. The EDL is not a mass movement. I think it's actually gone into steep decline already. I think we can draw similar conclusions in Germany, France, Spain and elsewhere. But I wish I could say the same about Russia, Ukraine, and other Eastern European countries. Also, I wouldn't say this: "Far, far more dangerous possibility is not the fascists overthrowing liberal democracy, but conservatives co-opting (some of) their rhetoric for their own ends." No. It's far more dangerous for fascists to overthrow liberal democracy! That's obviously more dangerous than conservatives co-opting some of their rhetoric. It's far safer for a mainstream conservative party to suck the air out of a fascist movement and provide a space for the concerns people have with immigration, multiculturalism, etc. than it is for these issues to be monopolized by the extreme right. To confess my unpopular opinion: It may be a better tactic for anti-fascists to build alliances with conservatives in order to pull people vulnerable to far-right recruitment away from those groups. That may be more effective than trying to turn them red, so to speak. But who am I kidding that will never happen. The caveat, of course, is when this happens: quote:A para-fascist regime is imposed from above (often by the military) and represents traditional elites trying to preserve the old order, but surrounds its conservative core with fascist trappings. These trappings may include an official state party, paramilitary organizations, a leader cult, mass political ritual, corporatism, and the rhetoric of ultranationalist regeneration. Para-fascist regimes may be just as ruthless as genuine fascist ones in their use of state terrorism. Unlike true fascism, para-fascism does not represent a genuine populist mobilization and does not substantively challenge established institutions. During the 1920s and 1930s, [Roger] Griffin argues, para-fascist regimes arose in several European countries, such as Spain, Portugal, Hungary, Romania, and Austria, joined by the Vichy government after France surrendered to Germany in 1940. Para-fascist regimes regarded genuine fascist movements as a threat and used various strategies to contain, coopt, or crush them. In Spain during the Civil War, for example, General Franco "imposed a shot-gun marriage between Falangists and the traditional (that is non-fascist) radical right" as part of his strategy to establish a para-fascist dictatorship. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 11:18 on Aug 10, 2013 |
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Aug 10, 2013 11:04
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OwlBot 2000 posted:Look like competent, attractive people who have it together, and you'll have an easier time recruiting the same. Of course it's always easier to recruit People Like You, but that doesn't necessarily make 'Be like them!' good advice. It's not that easy to change, nor clear that the new recruits will actually help you, if they're not willing to in your present state. Looking competent and attractive costs money. Some people don't have it, and others would rather spend it on more important things.
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Aug 10, 2013 11:05
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I will say the EDL's utter lack of hygiene and composure is probably a factor in them not being more popular. The BNP when it managed to conceal it's awfulness behind suits and pretence at being a genuine political party did rather better at garnering support. UKIP lead by a posh man at least for a while did even better than that. This is all anecdotal of course.
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Aug 10, 2013 11:05
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ReV VAdAUL posted:I will say the EDL's utter lack of hygiene and composure is probably a factor in them not being more popular. The BNP when it managed to conceal it's awfulness behind suits and pretence at being a genuine political party did rather better at garnering support. UKIP lead by a posh man at least for a while did even better than that. I think the UKIP a great example of how racism and xenophobia being incorporated into "normal" politics only serves to poison a democracy even further and does more to further a slide to even more. The BNP/EDL are still fringe groups, just the UKIP is a more cleaned up version of it. That said, what works for the UKIP would be disastrous for actual leftists, who don't necessarily want to embrace the status quo (or a reversion from it). Basically if you want to recruit a bunch of racist middle class people, a posh dude in a suit works great. Back on point, national politics moving socially and economically further right will obviously only embolden the far-right as it has in Russia/Hungary. The neo-nazis didn't disappear when Putin started bashing gays or life got more economically difficult.
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Aug 10, 2013 11:16
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dinoputz posted:I always heard Salazar kept them within arm's length, and was suspicious of them at times, but still supported it as an institution. Wikipedia says there were quite a few prominent dissidents in the Church throughout his reign related to social justice. My parents lived under his regime and it was essentially Catholic-bolstered fascism. Everything was framed about being a good Catholic citizen, with loyalty to the Church entwined with loyalty to the State. You could opt out of religious studies in school, but it was really "opt in to having the secret police come to your house". Even though my paternal grandparents are atheists they didn't opt my father or my aunt out for fear of what would happen.
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Aug 10, 2013 12:13
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Omi-Polari posted:Not necessarily. Every country in Europe during World War II had domestic fascist movements and many collaborated directly with the Nazis. It's still sickening to want your country to be under Nazi hegemony. Because obviously. But many of these modern neo-fascisms (though not all) trace their history to these quislings. Counterpoint, before the 19th century losing support of the population and provoking them to the point of actively or passively supporting a foreign invader was a sure-fire way to get your rear end handed over to you, more common in fact than a strictly internal revolt. The birth of the nation state and subsequently the rise of nationalism was the tool for population control that Machiavelli wish he'd came up with. When people were oppressed by the monarchy/aristocracy there was always a chance they would renege their fealty to their liege lords and support the claims of some usurper, either national or foreign, that promised them a better deal/treatment. You see it happening time and time and time again. Shift the allegiance of the population from a personal allegiance to their rulers into allegiance to "the state" and in one fell swoop you get rid of a whole possible vehicle for deposition. Most of the times Quislings of any political flavor don't support a foreign invader because they are inherently villainous and treacherous, they do it as a means to an end, the end being the establishment of whatever political model they believe would best serve their country. This isn't a defense of Quisling or Petain! I'm simply pointing out that nationalism can and is used as a powerful tool to maintain the status quo. Remember the red scare? Support minimum wage and social justice and you are a filthy communism traitor!  quote:If you support a foreigner you are betraying everyone, all your friends and neighbors, you are betraying The State. The only time the upper classes care about The Nation is when they need support of the people to fight off a foreign invader and after the threat is gone they go right back to their old ways. Right down to re-enslaving the people that just finished defending the country for them. Really, this poo poo has been going on since at least Ancient Greece. Apart from that the ruling class cares not a fig for The Nation, in fact they are quite happy to gently caress over their country for profit. Do you see them losing any sleep over the consequences shipping jobs to 3rd world countries is having on their own Nation? Hahaha, as long as it lined their pockets they would (and often did) sell their countrymen into slavery. Bloody hell, I have no skin in this game. Why would I fight and die to protect the privileges of the Napoleon didn't get to invade most of Europe solely due to the superior tactics of his army, he did it because when asked to stand up and protect whatever their version of Louis XVI / Marie Antoinette from the scary foreign invaders the population rightly told them to eat poo poo and die. MeLKoR fucked around with this message at 13:17 on Aug 10, 2013 |
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Aug 10, 2013 12:51
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Jacobin posted:On a related note, They should have called that song "If You Can't Beat The Fascists, Join Them".
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Aug 10, 2013 13:18
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