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my dad posted:I love the double whammy of them wanting a political turn towards Russia, and Russia using them to demonstrate how the West is full of Nazis. To be fair, if they seize some kind of power Russia'll work with them just the same.
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Jan 18, 2015 11:57
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SaltyJesus posted:To be fair, if they seize some kind of power Russia'll work with them just the same. I'm pretty sure Russia is funding them. It's just that I find it darkly hilarious how well Russia does doublethink.
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Jan 18, 2015 13:56
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my dad posted:I love the double whammy of them wanting a political turn towards Russia, and Russia using them to demonstrate how the West is full of Nazis. Is Greece truly considered "the West" in Russia?
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Jan 18, 2015 13:58
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Kopijeger posted:Is Greece truly considered "the West" in Russia? It's part of NATO, so I don't think it's wrong to consider them part of the West? Besides, Western culture basically originated in Greece. Look at the wikipedia article of the Western World, the first image you see is the Parthenon.
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Jan 18, 2015 13:59
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Torrannor posted:It's part of NATO, so I don't think it's wrong to consider them part of the West? You've got to be kidding me. The Ancient Greek culture started with the Phoenicians - they even stole their alphabet.
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Jan 18, 2015 14:02
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Torrannor posted:It's part of NATO, so I don't think it's wrong to consider them part of the West? Yes, but a large part of the reason that Russia doesn't consider itself to be "Western" is the fact that they are mostly Orthodox, and that doctrine originated in the greek-speaking Byzantine Empire.
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Jan 18, 2015 14:02
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Kopijeger posted:Yes, but a large part of the reason that Russia doesn't consider itself to be "Western" is the fact that they are mostly Orthodox, and that doctrine originated in the greek-speaking Byzantine Empire. I'm sorry, what?
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Jan 18, 2015 14:14
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my dad posted:I'm sorry, what? Well, that's the impression I got. Therefore I assumed that other they wouldn't necessarily consider other Orthodox-majority countries to be "Western" in the cultural sense.
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Jan 18, 2015 14:21
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As for the current Russian definition of West, it's about as consistent as pudding. It's the other thing you said that bugged me. Kopijeger posted:Yes, but a large part of the reason that Russia doesn't consider itself to be "Western" is the fact that they are mostly Orthodox, and that doctrine originated in the greek-speaking Byzantine Empire. This couldn't possibly be more wrong. As for why, it would require a huge post, and would lead to a massive derail, so sorry for not giving an explanation.
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Jan 18, 2015 14:36
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Yeah that argument is actually close to being totally opposite to the truth.
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Jan 18, 2015 14:43
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my dad posted:This couldn't possibly be more wrong. As for why, it would require a huge post, and would lead to a massive derail, so sorry for not giving an explanation. Really? Everything I have read on the subject suggests that Russia became Orthodox because the religion spread from the Byzantine Empire to Kievan Rus through Bulgaria. Wikipedia posted:By the end of the first millennium AD, eastern Slavic lands started to come under the cultural influence of the Eastern Roman Empire. In 863–69, Saint Cyril and Saint Methodius translated parts of the Bible into Old Church Slavonic language for the first time, paving the way for the Christianization of the Slavs. There is evidence that the first Christian bishop was sent to Novgorod from Constantinople either by Patriarch Photius or Patriarch Ignatios, circa 866–67 AD.
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Jan 18, 2015 14:48
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The not-West part, not the Orthodox part.
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Jan 18, 2015 14:49
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If most of Russia's modern foreign policy decisions are made out of paranoiac worries to do with getting invaded (sometimes justified), the rest are motivated by a desire to be taken seriously as a civilised modern European country/empire.
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Jan 18, 2015 14:51
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We may be using differing interpretations of what "Western" means. When I say that Russia does not consider itself "Western" I meant that their Orthodoxy is one of the most obvious cultural traits that distinguish them from the Catholic/Protestant "West". I guess they would still consider themselves part of "Christendom", especially when contrasted with non-Christian cultures to their East and South, but that is not quite the same thing as being "Western".
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Jan 18, 2015 14:57
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Kopijeger posted:We may be using differing interpretations of what "Western" means. When I say that Russia does not consider itself "Western" I meant that their Orthodoxy is one of the most obvious cultural traits that distinguish them from the Catholic/Protestant "West". I guess they would still consider themselves part of "Christendom", especially when contrasted with non-Christian cultures to their East and South, but that is not quite the same thing as being "Western". The world didn't define itself by excluding itself from the West. The West defined itself by excluding the rest of the world.
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Jan 18, 2015 15:25
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The Clash of Civilizations stuff is bullshit designed to give a veneer of intellectual justification to hard American nationalism, something that has had catastrophic consequences again and again. Orthodoxy is definitely a thing, but it doesn't follow that such countries will be in conflict with Catholic or Protestant countries because of it
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Jan 18, 2015 16:51
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icantfindaname posted:The Clash of Civilizations stuff is bullshit designed to give a veneer of intellectual justification to hard American nationalism, something that has had catastrophic consequences again and again. Not just American nationalism, but I agree.
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Jan 18, 2015 16:55
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Amazing. Just amazing.
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Jan 21, 2015 22:02
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His explaination for it actually was the first politician's apology that I'd be inclined to believe.
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Jan 21, 2015 22:09
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Randler posted:His explaination for it actually was the first politician's apology that I'd be inclined to believe. "It's a joke" is probably not going to go over as well when you're the leader of a movememnt full of NPD people, refer to refugees as "animals" and "scumbags", and are German. 
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Jan 21, 2015 22:48
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Oh yeah I might have become somewhat responsible for removing any chance of the Swedish version of Pegida getting any traction(it was already rather unlikely but goddamn, it's gonna be fun to watch the fallout of this).
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Jan 22, 2015 02:24
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Jan 22, 2015 02:54
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Rutkowski posted:Oh yeah I might have become somewhat responsible for removing any chance of the Swedish version of Pegida getting any traction(it was already rather unlikely but goddamn, it's gonna be fun to watch the fallout of this). Did you do something in particular or was that a mistyping? I've heard the fearmongering rumor that if Syrisa/the left wins the Greek elections the country is going to go down in flames for disappointing the IMF's fairies or some such. How much weight is there to the rumours? Coming from country that got hosed by the IMF and got out of the whole by not listening to them, I'm inclined to mistrust them and the new age of austerity economics. It's really sad the way the world is going, with welfare states being dismantled while extreme right wing parties skitter out of the gutters into the mainstream.
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Jan 22, 2015 03:02
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Markovnikov posted:Did you do something in particular or was that a mistyping? Less IMF fairies, more Eurozone/German banking fairies. But I don't think it's gonna happen, it would mean the Eurozone throwing a member state under the bus and the political/economic fallout of it would be a nightmare I cannot imagine anyone thinking would be preferable to cooperating with a SYRIZA government.
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Jan 22, 2015 07:16
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YF-23 posted:Less IMF fairies, more Eurozone/German banking fairies. But I don't think it's gonna happen, it would mean the Eurozone throwing a member state under the bus and the political/economic fallout of it would be a nightmare I cannot imagine anyone thinking would be preferable to cooperating with a SYRIZA government.
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Jan 22, 2015 09:18
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Markovnikov posted:Did you do something in particular or was that a mistyping? Nah, not a mistyping. In short: Henrik Rönnquist(the racist who hosted noted nazi "street artist" Dan Park to show of his "works" in his gallery) announced Pegida is coming to Sweden. I manage to infiltrate the planning group as well as befriend the woman arranging everything. As a result, I've gotten info of where they're gathering(both city and location), when(both time and date), what their plans are during the manifestation. That isn't that much, tbh, but I also managed to get info on the hostess. Pegida is co-operating with the Swedish Democrats who claim oh-so-much that they're not nazis and the woman is an self-designated antisemite and supporter of the nazi Party of the Swedes. This is something that I informed people about a couple of days ago and the SD strategists know of it(confirmed) but they're still willing to work with the nazis anyway, despite them repeating for the last number of years that they have a zero-tolerance policy with racists(lol). Other people part of the planning group involved Dan Park himself, Rönnquist(obviously), KJ Windeskog(former member of the National Democrats before they folded last year, a party SD have denounced as "crypto-nazis") and other of the same ilk. If the Swedish Democrats continue to support Pegida Sweden, they'll support nazis and lose a lot of credibility. If they withdraw their support the movement will be(even more) dead in the water. Also, they think they'll have roughly 1000 who attend their first gathering. It's looking more like 50-100, 150 tops. And that is if SD does not denounce the movement.
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Jan 22, 2015 12:40
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Did you have to compare asylum seekers to animals and/or carefully hint at a zionist conspiracy during this infiltration to maintain cover?
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Jan 22, 2015 13:51
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Us Greeks do not consider ourselves as 'western', merely trying to integrate further with western Europe and whatever goes with that (although it is obviously a slow/failing process). Despite 'the west' appropriating various aspects of our culture, it does not imply that we are part of the vague nebulous concept you all enjoy referring to in your discourse.
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Jan 22, 2015 14:13
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Velisarius posted:Us Greeks do not consider ourselves as 'western', merely trying to integrate further with western Europe and whatever goes with that (although it is obviously a slow/failing process). Despite 'the west' appropriating various aspects of our culture, it does not imply that we are part of the vague nebulous concept you all enjoy referring to in your discourse.
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Jan 22, 2015 14:16
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Velisarius posted:Us Greeks do not consider ourselves as 'western', merely trying to integrate further with western Europe and whatever goes with that (although it is obviously a slow/failing process). Despite 'the west' appropriating various aspects of our culture, it does not imply that we are part of the vague nebulous concept you all enjoy referring to in your discourse. The fun* thing is that what you think matters the least. *for a very depressing definition of fun
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Jan 22, 2015 14:21
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Velisarius posted:Us Greeks do not consider ourselves as 'western', merely trying to integrate further with western Europe and whatever goes with that (although it is obviously a slow/failing process). Despite 'the west' appropriating various aspects of our culture, it does not imply that we are part of the vague nebulous concept you all enjoy referring to in your discourse. When it suits your politics. It's not like this opinion is a consistent theme across all of Greek history.
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Jan 22, 2015 14:31
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Velisarius posted:Us Greeks do not consider ourselves as 'western', merely trying to integrate further with western Europe and whatever goes with that (although it is obviously a slow/failing process). Despite 'the west' appropriating various aspects of our culture, it does not imply that we are part of the vague nebulous concept you all enjoy referring to in your discourse. 
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Jan 22, 2015 14:34
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A Buttery Pastry posted:To be fair, modern Greeks are just Slavs with pretentions. That is unionically true.
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Jan 22, 2015 14:37
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Rutkowski posted:In short: At least you did something about the stuff you learned. I figured that if I so easily found out the basics of our fascists' plans about that goddamn football game in a casual conversation in the bus, surely the police would be aware of them, too.  I mean, there's nothing I could've done to stop Albanian plans about that goddamn football game, or reduce the violence comitted by Albanians, but maybe there was something that could have been done to reduce or prevent attacks on Albanians (and people mistaken for Albanians) in Serbia. Probably wouldn't have changed anything, but I really don't think I'd ever forgive myself if someone got killed that day, with me doing nothing about it except smugly posting on an internet comedy forum the day before.
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Jan 22, 2015 15:01
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Disinterested posted:That is unionically true. Is it corinthianally true then?
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Jan 22, 2015 15:08
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Messyass posted:Is it corinthianally true then? Hahaha. Who says the Freudian slip is a dead concept?
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Jan 22, 2015 15:15
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Disinterested posted:Hahaha. Who says the Freudian slip is a dead concept? Ionians didn't even live in Greece, so it's doubly awesome.
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Jan 22, 2015 15:44
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Torrannor posted:Ionians didn't even live in Greece, so it's doubly awesome. It's actually thricely awesome, since Corinth is reputed to be one of the places resistant to Slavic invasion/migration as well.
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Jan 22, 2015 15:46
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Velisarius posted:Us Greeks do not consider ourselves as 'western', merely trying to integrate further with western Europe and whatever goes with that (although it is obviously a slow/failing process). Despite 'the west' appropriating various aspects of our culture, it does not imply that we are part of the vague nebulous concept you all enjoy referring to in your discourse. This is the greatest lie to circulate the Greek political scene these days, and everyone is guilty of it. The pro-austeritarian parties by claiming that their neoliberal reforms they are doing is the way for Greece to turn into a western European state, SYRIZA by claiming that rejecting austerity and neoliberal reforms is the way to becoming a proper west European state. The truth is, Greece *is* a proper west European state, and to pretend it is less than that is to drat well near deify "model states" like France and Germany, and it lends weight to the line of argument that the issues Greece faces are internal and not part of a greater European narrative. It is a very localist way of looking at things that I would even call it insulting towards the EU as an institution in a way that is frankly unwarranted in spite of its obvious issues (or at least in the wrong direction; there should be more emphasis on how Greece should be a cautionary tale for the rest of Europe instead of how it's a special snowflake second-rate member state).
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Jan 22, 2015 20:45
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Rutkowski posted:Nah, not a mistyping. You are awesome, good job 
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Jan 22, 2015 21:14
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